DEVS: What does "unlimited access to all game features" mean?

[Master-Nala]

http://www.swtor.com/legalnotices/termsofservice

 

6. Updates to the Service; Notices.

 

Terms of Service for new TOR Services and important changes to existing services will be posted at the TOR site. You agree to check here periodically for new information and terms that govern your use of TOR Services. BioWare and LucasArts reserve the right to modify the Terms of Service at any time. Revisions to terms affecting existing TOR Services shall be effective thirty (30) days after posting the new Terms of Service. Terms for new TOR Services are effective immediately. If you do not agree to the new terms, or to any of the terms in this Terms of Service, your only remedy is to not use TOR Services and to cancel your Account or applicable subscriptions.

 

IMPORTANT: BIOWARE MAY FIND IT NECESSARY TO MAKE CHANGES TO, OR RESET CERTAIN PARAMETERS TO BALANCE GAME PLAY AND USAGE OF TOR SERVICES. THESE CHANGES OR "RESETS" MAY AFFECT CHARACTERS OR GAMES OR GROUPS UNDER YOUR CONTROL AND MAY CAUSE YOU SETBACKS WITHIN THE RELEVANT GAME WORLD. BIOWARE RESERVES THE RIGHT TO MAKE THESE CHANGES AND IS NOT LIABLE TO YOU FOR THESE CHANGES.

Edited May 17, 2013 by Master-Nala

[DarthTHC]

http://www.swtor.com/legalnotices/termsofservice

 

Absolutely could be their answer. If that's the case, I'd like to see them say, "things changed".

 

This is bigger than having to fix an exploit with an emergency patch or having to rebalance a class, because it's a pattern of behavior. A principle.

Edited May 17, 2013 by DarthTHC

[jamesvasquez]

Great post, but that doesn't mean there shouldn't be some kind of response. As I said, I'm not terribly concerned one way or the other about it, but a complete lack of responding to subscribers' concerns, however insignificant does show a serious lack in customer support.

[WillCaedes]

Absolutely could be their answer. If that's the case, I'd like to see them say, "things changed".

 

This is bigger than having to fix an exploit with an emergency patch or having to rebalance a class.

 

If they say it changed and respond to any of these complaint threads, I'll back down from my petition thread, currently my beef isn't with Hickman, but rather with Eric Musco and Cory Butler over the issues with the collection system. Specifically what we were told pre-launch, and what actually happened with it. Disgusting.

[Shingara]

http://www.swtor.com/legalnotices/termsofservice

 

You forget the part about 30 days notice.

[Aimey]

I 100% agree with the op. I just paid a 6 month sub last month so they have me for a few more months and then I think I am done. I feel cathar and the character customization were purposely left out of the expansion so they could do this.

[Glowrod]

The question is facetious, of course, because we all understand what it means.

 

The reason I am asking is that in this developer blog from 31 July 2012, Jeff Hickman, Executive Producer of Star Wars The Old Republic, said this:

 

 

 

Then, in Tuesday's patch, you released game features that are cartel coin only. Since we enjoy a limited stipend of cartel coins with our subscriptions, that naturally means we subscribers now have limited access to some game features.

 

In other words, actions do not match words. That is always cause for concern. Others will certainly use stronger terms, but I prefer to try to understand why actions aren't matching words before jumping to any conclusions, especially negative ones.

 

So, to the communication team / mods, I humbly request as a fan of this game since 2008 and a subscriber since early access, that you take this concern, specifically "unlimited access to all game features" to the development staff, preferably Mr. Hickman himself since they're his words and in his position, he "owns" all decisions, and ask them to communicate back to us how we can reconcile this mismatch between words and actions.

 

Thank you.

 

There are lots of things in this game that you don't get, even if you subscribe. Some examples:

1) You only get 50 slots on the GTN as a subscriber. The game supports more, but if you want more you have to shell out CC's

 

2) You only get 12 character slots. The game supports more but if you want more you have to shell out CC's

 

3) You only get 16 slots of bag space as a subscriber. A feature of the game allows all of your toons to have all 80 slots open, but if you want that, you have to shell out CC's

 

4) You only have one cargo hold tab as a subscriber. The game supports a feature where all of your toons can have more tabs, but if you want it, you have to give up CC's.

Edited May 17, 2013 by Glowrod

[DarthTHC]

There are lots of things in this game that you don't get, even if you subscribe. Some examples:

1) You only get 50 slots on the GTN as a subscriber. The game supports more, but if you want more you have to shell out CC's

 

2) You only get 12 character slots. The game supports more but if you want more you have to shell out CC's

 

3) You only get 16 slots of bag space as a subscriber. A feature of the game allows all of your toons to have all 80 slots open, but if you want that, you have to shell out CC's

 

4) You only have one cargo hold tab as a subscriber. The game supports a feature where all of your toons can have more tabs, but if you want it, you have to give up CC's.

 

For every single one of those things, I can also use credits. If I can use credits, I stipulate that they fall into "unlimited access".

 

In fact I HAVE used credits to unlock all of those things except more GTN space, including a 13th character slot.

[TUXs]

I have vehemently defended this patch. The prices are low enough that anyone who didn't blow their coins on gambling packs as soon as they got them should not care.

 

However, that is NOT the point of my OP.

 

The point of my OP is that they told us one thing then they did something else entirely. That is a concern. It needs to be reconciled.

 

I agree 100% with this! The prices are "fair" imo...but it's not the issue, it's also not what we were told less than 6 months ago. Faith in Bioware's ability/willingness to keep their word is shaken by this update.

 

Instead of this being an update that players told their friends about and lauded here on the forums, it has become an issue to berate Bioware/EA for over their brazen greed.

 

Rather than this being one of the most positive updates to ever happen to this game, it'll go down as one of the most blatantly covetous updates ever.

 

SWTOR could have really used a POSITIVE update. Giving just PART of this update away for FREE (as they had promised originally), would have brought a multitude of goodwill and positive feelings...instead, players just feel cheated.

 

Penny wise and a pound/dollar foolish.

[Jamus_Divinus]

Giving just PART of this update away for FREE (as they had promised originally...

 

Which part specifically did they promise would be free originally? I'm not having a pop but for the life of me i can't remember any such specific promise.

 

Unless you meant the 'unlimited access to all game features' claim.

[jamesvasquez]

I don't understand how so many of these posts can be made and the devs don't make any response.

[Malastare]

I may be able to re-do my hairstyle 475 times or whatever I can get to with all the coins I've received so far, but I can't do #476. That's a limit..

 

Sorry, but that's just silly. I thought you were trying to make a serious argument.

 

According to this argument, before F2P, subscribers were already severely limited. We could make new characters. But the moment you try to make that 9th character... limited. I can put items on the GTN, but the moment I try to put that 51st item... limited. I can run Underworld Trading missions, but the moment I try with 0 credits in my wallet... limited.

 

Your access is still unlimited today in the sense that there is no game feature that you cannot access without a reasonable amount of CC from the CC pool you get as a subscriber. Contrast this with the experience of F2P players, who have a limited number of WZs to run, a limited number of FPs they can join, limits on what gear they can wear and how much cash they can carry. Yes, there are limits on subscribers, but again, games are based on limits. You never were able to have as many Black Hole Comms as you wanted, or buy an infinite number of speeders.

 

As much as this might annoy you, I sort of prefer it this way. If there were no limits, the world becomes crazy. I don't want everyone running around with black/black eradicator gear. I want that to be rare, and that means limiting someone. I'm fine being one of them. I don't want to be able to change my appearance like the weather. I want my appearance to have weight and meaning. I want to have some limits, so that I'm forced to choose. And I want that to be liquid, so that others are able to choose completely different things. They want the full Eradicator gear? Great. I'll take the Cathar and an extra character slot.

[TUXs]

Which part specifically did they promise would be free originally? I'm not having a pop but for the life of me i can't remember any such specific promise.

 

Unless you meant the 'unlimited access to all game features' claim.

 

First, you can continue as a subscriber, which gives you unlimited access to all game features and future Game Updates at no additional charge.

I highlighted the part for you.

 

If you refuse to see how customization is a "feature", I can't help you.

[jamesvasquez]

With Cartel Coins you can purchase convenience items, boosts, visually unique gear, collectibles, and more. The new Cartel Market gives you the option to add to your game play experience with items that fit your play style and allow you to customize your character.

 

Just thought I should highlight the part that explicitly says that customization would be in the cartel market and not part of the whole "unlimited access" thing everyone is talking about.

[DarthTHC]

Sorry, but that's just silly. I thought you were trying to make a serious argument.

 

According to this argument, before F2P, subscribers were already severely limited. We could make new characters. But the moment you try to make that 9th character... limited. I can put items on the GTN, but the moment I try to put that 51st item... limited. I can run Underworld Trading missions, but the moment I try with 0 credits in my wallet... limited.

 

Your access is still unlimited today in the sense that there is no game feature that you cannot access without a reasonable amount of CC from the CC pool you get as a subscriber. Contrast this with the experience of F2P players, who have a limited number of WZs to run, a limited number of FPs they can join, limits on what gear they can wear and how much cash they can carry. Yes, there are limits on subscribers, but again, games are based on limits. You never were able to have as many Black Hole Comms as you wanted, or buy an infinite number of speeders.

 

As much as this might annoy you, I sort of prefer it this way. If there were no limits, the world becomes crazy. I don't want everyone running around with black/black eradicator gear. I want that to be rare, and that means limiting someone. I'm fine being one of them. I don't want to be able to change my appearance like the weather. I want my appearance to have weight and meaning. I want to have some limits, so that I'm forced to choose. And I want that to be liquid, so that others are able to choose completely different things. They want the full Eradicator gear? Great. I'll take the Cathar and an extra character slot.

 

Jeff Hickman did not say "reasonable access to all game features". He said "unlimited access to all game features".

 

If the expectation is now "reasonable access..." I would like them to clearly set that expectation.

 

But by your last paragraph, are you saying you would like to, as a subscriber, be limited in the number of war zones, operations, flash points, or planetary missions you can undertake per day or week, aside from the limitation time imposes upon you?

[TUXs]

As much as this might annoy you, I sort of prefer it this way. If there were no limits, the world becomes crazy.

 

Just the thought that you would equate this GAME to the real world, should scare you. Step back and get help for your control issues.

[DarthTHC]

With Cartel Coins you can purchase convenience items, boosts, visually unique gear, collectibles, and more. The new Cartel Market gives you the option to add to your game play experience with items that fit your play style and allow you to customize your character.

 

Just thought I should highlight the part that explicitly says that customization would be in the cartel market and not part of the whole "unlimited access" thing everyone is talking about.

 

ITEMS that fit your play style and allow you to customize your character. ITEMS.

 

Kiosk is not an ITEM. I can't buy it from the CM or GTN and put it onto my character or into a slot of gear and have it change my character's appearance.

 

It is a GAME FEATURE.

[jamesvasquez]

Not to dispute what you've just said... but a kiosk... is an item. It may not be one that you can keep in your inventory, but it is very much an item.

[Jamus_Divinus]

I highlighted the part for you.

 

If you refuse to see how customization is a "feature", I can't help you.

 

I think you stopped reading before the end as I wrote 'Unless you meant the 'unlimited access to all game features' claim.' in the very section you quoted.

 

You did mean that quote and so there was no reason to reply

[TUXs]

I think you stopped reading before the end as I wrote 'Unless you meant the 'unlimited access to all game features' claim.' in the very section you quoted.

 

You did mean that quote and so there was no reason to reply

 

Just wanted to be clear

[Jamus_Divinus]

Just wanted to be clear

 

No worries

[DarthTHC]

Not to dispute what you've just said... but a kiosk... is an item. It may not be one that you can keep in your inventory, but it is very much an item.

 

If the kiosk is an item, then every questgiver is an item. Every taxi droid. Every mob. Every elevator.

 

The most typical definition if an item in a game is something that you can put into your inventory. You may be able to sell them to vendors or other players. You may be able to equip them.

 

You can do no item-like things with the kiosk. It is most definitely not an item.

Edited May 17, 2013 by DarthTHC

[Malastare]

Well, certainly. Plans do change. I don't think we should simply accept that excuse, however. If someone, anyone (friends, corporations, politicians etc) says one thing, then does another without even acknowledging it or shrugging it off by saying, "Plans change, lol" then that isn't just fine.

 

What do you propose as a solution to the problem then?

 

Imagine this scenario: As a developer, I have plans to release some cool feature in six months. I ask PR if I'm allowed to mention it. They say "Sure." A day later, in an interview, someone asks if there is anything new coming. I have two choices:

 

#1: I can tell them about the new planned feature

#2: I can say some evasive crap about how I'm always looking to add stuff and mention nothing in particular.

 

Now, in the scenario, three months later, I run into unexpected problems in a completely unrelated part of the project. I have to change priorities, move teams, reschedule testing, whatever. When the dust settles, I'm behind schedule by another three months.

 

This is a very realistic scenario and it happens quite often. Here is the problem. At the moment when I have to choose whether to mention my plans, I cannot see into the future. I don't know whether I'm going to have problems or if my corporation is going to be restructured or if some accountant is going to re-arrange my business model for me. If I take option #1, I can generate some buzz in the short term, but I'll also generate loads of backlash as people call me a liar when I push the release to 9 months. If I take option #2, people ignore my comment and at worst, complain that I never share information.

 

In a game-theory, cost-benefit analysis, which options is better really comes down to how much you value the buzz and how much you'll lose if something comes up and you can't deliver. If you have a community that shrugs off buzz but obsesses over negatives, then there's very little reason to choose option #1. It's the option I would want to choose, but the realist in me says that its not worth the risk. In my experience, the majority of my development plans change before they get implemented, and the majority of those changes are driven by things out of my control.

 

The forums are always complaining about how the devs never share their plans. At the same time, they blast the devs, calling them idiots, stupid, incompetent, and even criminals for failing to deliver on any statement they make, even if that statement was explicitly labeled as a plan or a preliminary schedule. We want plans, but we have zero tolerance for the fact that plans change. What are the devs supposed to do to make us happy?

[jamesvasquez]

If the kiosk is an item, then every questgiver is an item. Every taxi droid. Every mob. Every elevator.

 

The most typical definition if an item in a game is something that you can put into your inventory. You may be able to sell them to vendors or other players. You may be able to equip them.

 

You can do no item-like things with the kiosk. It is most definitely not an item.

 

All I'm saying is that the customization and dye packs fall under customization, which was clearly stated as a cartel market thing. It's really not earth-shattering to see that it is in the cartel market.

[Malastare]

But by your last paragraph, are you saying you would like to, as a subscriber, be limited in the number of war zones, operations, flash points, or planetary missions you can undertake per day or week, aside from the limitation time imposes upon you?

 

Are you saying that you should be able to create 3,1337 character per server? Or that you should be able to list four million items on the GTN? Or that you should be given enough credits to buy every single item in the game?