branmakmuffin Posted May 22, 2013 Share Posted May 22, 2013 It's amazingly unethical. It's bad for this game. It's a shame that you don't see that. And then ... I'm not lecturing anyone on anything. I'm expressing my opinion. You sure sound like you're lecturing when you state flat-out that it's "amazingly unethical" and that it's a shame others don't see that (as if it's objective truth only the willfully blind don't see). Yes they are. They are terrible. But this thread is about the enormous steaming pile of rotting dog crap that is the SWTOR dye system. Do you think somehow that if you characterize it often enough as a steaming pile of dog crap, it will magically be transformed into a steaming pile of dog crap? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anzel Posted May 22, 2013 Share Posted May 22, 2013 (edited) You sure sound like you're lecturing when you state flat-out that it's "amazingly unethical" and that it's a shame others don't see that (as if it's objective truth only the willfully blind don't see). Well that's my opinion. I'm **entitled** to it. I'm sorry if I don't word that correctly for you or that you somehow feel compelled to translate that as a lecture. I'm not sure how I can help you there. The gambling packs suck. They are terrible. They are unethical. They should be removed. <shug> That's how I feel. You're welcomed to disagree. Do you think somehow that if you characterize it often enough as a steaming pile of dog crap, it will magically be transformed into a steaming pile of dog crap? Well that's all I see when I close my eyes and think about it. You are **entitled** to see it differently. Edited May 22, 2013 by Anzel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kurgun Posted May 22, 2013 Share Posted May 22, 2013 Would you please stop calling this "gambling?" Grab bag packs are not gambling. There is a chance of different items being in the packs, but there will always be a set number of items, all of which have some use in the game. Grab bag. Not gambling. Get it straight. No it is indeed "gambling" You and the other fan boys just don't want to admit it. I suspect the reason is because you all are spending lots on these gamble packs and are making a ton of credits in-game and want to see that continue, for YOUR benefits. Why else would anyone defend this assine cash grab that Bioware/EA implemented to milk players of as much money as possible. All the while rewarding them with mostly useless crap in each pack. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kurgun Posted May 22, 2013 Share Posted May 22, 2013 we could also use your same idiotic logic to another aspect of the game since you think dye packs are contributing to gambling addictions.... do you spend all of your time and credits on Ancient Artifact Crates? No? why not? You just never know what might be in there! See what i did there. Dumb argument. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andryah Posted May 22, 2013 Share Posted May 22, 2013 (edited) I'm not contending that it's illegal, just unethical. You cannot have an internet debate on ethics in connection with an MMO. It would be unethical to try to do so... which puts you squarely into a space that you yourself object to..... being unethical. Edited May 22, 2013 by Andryah Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andryah Posted May 22, 2013 Share Posted May 22, 2013 (edited) No it is indeed "gambling" You and the other fan boys just don't want to admit it. I suspect the reason is because you all are spending lots on these gamble packs and are making a ton of credits in-game and want to see that continue, for YOUR benefits. Why else would anyone defend this assine cash grab that Bioware/EA implemented to milk players of as much money as possible. All the while rewarding them with mostly useless crap in each pack. 1) it is not gambling, in any legal standing or definition of the term. And if ever there was a term properly wrapped in legal standing and definition, the word gambling is. 2) I have never purchased a cartel pack, or any other random chance pack in any MMO. So.. my dear.. you are 0 for 2.. and one swing away from a completel strike out. I'm thinking that you are probably a recovering pack-a-haulic with a severe case of keester-hurt over your consumption of packs. See what I did there? I made a baseless claim and pretended it was the truth. Hows that feel there fella? Cartel packs are games of chance, with non-monetary rewards. Not all games of chance = gambling. For that matter, not all gambling = games of chance. Your connection of the two is incongruant with reality in our world. That leaves you with... fantasy. Edited May 22, 2013 by Andryah Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andryah Posted May 22, 2013 Share Posted May 22, 2013 (edited) Well that's all I see when I close my eyes and think about it. I'm not picking on you.. but I have to say.. if this is true (and you are not just exaggerating), that seems to me personally as kind of obsessive. On a lighter note? so how many pieces of gear have you dyed now? There is plenty of dye that has nothing to do with the CM. Selling cheap on the GTN too I might add. Edited May 22, 2013 by Andryah Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarthTHC Posted May 22, 2013 Share Posted May 22, 2013 Just to be clear, the cartel packs and dye packs are gambling per the definition of the word: gam·bling [gam-bling] noun 1. the activity or practice of playing at a game of chance for money or other stakes. It's that "other stakes" part of the definition that makes it gambling. Other stakes in this case being the awards one might receive from either pack if one is lucky enough. Oooh, lucky enough - there's the "game of chance" part! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MythosHero Posted May 22, 2013 Share Posted May 22, 2013 There's a fairly simple way around all this nonsense. After picking up about four of the random dye crates (because I'd been saving free coins for months in the hopes of just such a customization update) I stopped when it became apparent just how terrible of an implementation this all was. I've been buying the desired colors from GTN whenever I find them for an acceptable price. (Mind you, those credits were earned from crafting and raiding, not reselling cartel cash gimmicks.) Checking the GTN is also much easier, since the only colors that don't look like bad Crayola are some combination of black and white. (Well done on the realism and variety, I might add.) Moral of the story, coins remain unused because patience and credits are a much more favorable alternative. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andryah Posted May 22, 2013 Share Posted May 22, 2013 Just to be clear, the cartel packs and dye packs are gambling per the definition of the word: It's that "other stakes" part of the definition that makes it gambling. Other stakes in this case being the awards one might receive from either pack if one is lucky enough. Oooh, lucky enough - there's the "game of chance" part! By that broad definition, getting up in the morning is gambling, because other stakes (such as your life, liberty, freedom) are at stake as soon as you step out in the world (perhaps even before hand). In society, the term gambling has clear legal definition and standing. As such, in society, your local laws determine what is/is-not gambling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andryah Posted May 22, 2013 Share Posted May 22, 2013 Moral of the story, coins remain unused because patience and credits are a much more favorable alternative. Yep yep. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarthTHC Posted May 22, 2013 Share Posted May 22, 2013 By that broad definition, getting up in the morning is gambling, because other stakes (such as your life, liberty, freedom) are at stake as soon as you step out in the world (perhaps even before hand). In society, the term gambling has clear legal definition and standing. As such, in society, your local laws determine what is/is-not gambling. Getting up in the morning is not gambling because getting up in the morning is not playing at a game of chance. If you want to argue with the definition of the word, "gambling", your argument is with dictionary.com or Webster's or any of numerous other dictionaries... not with me. Notice that no mention was made of whether or not gambling is legal. "Legal" is not part of the definition. There are definitions in various laws at the international, national, state, and local levels about what is and is not "legal gambling". That is irrelevant to the discussion. I don't think anyone on this thread has said the cartel packs or dye packs are illegal. But people have argued about whether or not they are "gambling". And it is clear they are, by the definition of the term on dictionary.com. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andryah Posted May 22, 2013 Share Posted May 22, 2013 (edited) Getting up in the morning is not gambling because getting up in the morning is not playing at a game of chance. Yes, yes, actually it is. But you miss my point. My point being.. you picked a broad definition which has no actual relevance to any legal context or discussion of what is/is-not gambling and applied it in a literal rather then legal context. There is a legal definition of what is/is-not gambling, and there is also a moral definition. People here can argue for the moral application of the definition. They cannot argue the legal definition... some are trying to.. but most are just arguing the moral application of the definition IMO.. which I could care less about. Your local laws define what is/is-not gambling. Unless Bioware is in violation of your local laws (look them up) or is operating with a licence to conduct a gambling enterprise in your locality.. this whole "it's gambling!!" nonsense is just that.. nonsense. Edited May 22, 2013 by Andryah Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarthTHC Posted May 22, 2013 Share Posted May 22, 2013 (edited) Yes, yes, actually it is. But you miss my point. My point being.. you picked a broad definition which has no actual relevance to any legal context or discussion of what is/is-not gambling and applied it in a literal rather then legal context. There is a legal definition of what is/is-not gambling, and there is also a moral definition. People here can argue for the moral application of the definition. They cannot argue the legal definition... some are trying to.. but most are just arguing the moral application of the definition IMO.. which I could care less about. Your local laws define what is/is-not gambling. Unless Bioware is in violation of your local laws (look them up) or is operating with a licence to conduct a gambling enterprise in your locality.. this whole "it's gambling!!" nonsense is just that.. nonsense. Now you're being a white knight. I picked a definition from a well-known reference. If you would like to cite a different definition, please feel free to do so. Laws do not define words. Dictionaries do. Laws define what is legal and illegal. Edited May 22, 2013 by DarthTHC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andryah Posted May 22, 2013 Share Posted May 22, 2013 (edited) Now you're being a white knight. I picked a definition from a well-known reference. If you would like to cite a different definition, please feel free to do so. Laws do not define words. Dictionaries do. Laws define what is legal and illegal. Words are pointless without context. The context around gambling is either a moral or a legal one. As evidenced by the constant bickering over the term when people don't like cartel packs. And I'm sorry.. but laws do in fact define words in some cases in civilized society. Are the cartel packs in violation of local gambling laws in your locality? Is a gambling license required to sell them in your localities jurisdiction? If the answer to both questions is no.. then cartel packs are not gambling. Local laws in most cases are extremely verbose in defining what is and what is-not gambling. There are generally two legal interests in the community: crime mitigation and tax revenue. Gambling attracts community interest for both reasons. Edited May 22, 2013 by Andryah Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarthTHC Posted May 23, 2013 Share Posted May 23, 2013 (edited) Words are pointless without context. The context around gambling is either a moral or a legal one. As evidenced by the constant bickering over the term when people don't like cartel packs. And I'm sorry.. but laws do in fact define words in some cases in civilized society. Are the cartel packs in violation of local gambling laws in your locality? Is a gambling license required to sell them in your localities jurisdiction? If the answer to both questions is no.. then cartel packs are not gambling. Local laws in most cases are extremely verbose in defining what is and what is-not gambling. There are generally two legal interests in the community: crime mitigation and tax revenue. Gambling attracts community interest for both reasons. The definition of gambling is the definition of gambling. Whether or not it is legal is a matter for the law books in your local jurisdiction. I'm not even arguing whether or not the random packs are legal. I concur that they -are- legal. Whether or not it's MORAL is a question for whomever's morality you choose to subscribe to, be it the poets, philosophers, religious leaders, intellectuals, or your own, and is largely irrelevant to any discussion because the definition of morality varies so greatly. I'm not going to argue morality either. However, the definition of gambling, the essence of "Is that gambling?" (not "is that legal") is set and, I would suggest, very consistent across English language references. The cartel and dye packs are, indeed, gambling. Edited May 23, 2013 by DarthTHC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zalekanzer Posted May 23, 2013 Share Posted May 23, 2013 Its art style is designed to look like a comic book, I would say its pretty successful in that. A comic book drawn by Rob Liefeld? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Radzkie Posted May 23, 2013 Share Posted May 23, 2013 (edited) Sort of sucks that I cannot change the red sleeves on my eradicator's cuirass. I wish they at least made it so the third color will dye the same as the secondary one...or something. Whatever number the random red part is. The grey/black between the armor is natural/normal looking so hopefully it stays that way. The red just looks...strange with basically every color combo but black/black IMO. Edited May 23, 2013 by Radzkie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andryah Posted May 23, 2013 Share Posted May 23, 2013 (edited) Sort of sucks that I cannot change the red sleeves on my eradicator's cuirass. I wish they at least made it so the third color will dye the same as the secondary one...or something. Whatever number the random red part is. The grey/black between the armor is natural/normal looking so hopefully it stays that way. The red just looks...strange with basically every color combo but black/black IMO. Are you refering to those red bands on the sleeves? Yeah.. I will not aquire the Eradicator set because of that. It just seems misplaced to me. I'm partial to the White/Orange dye and while it looks really great on many sets.. it's a complete whiff on the Erradicators set. Edited May 23, 2013 by Andryah Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Radzkie Posted May 23, 2013 Share Posted May 23, 2013 Are you refering to those red bands on the sleeves? Yeah.. I will not aquire the Eradicator set because of that. It just seems misplaced to me. I'm partial to the White/Orange dye and while it looks really great on many sets.. it's a complete whiff on the Erradicators set. Yeah, I meant the red bands on the sleeves. Sorry I wasn't very clear about that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anzel Posted May 23, 2013 Share Posted May 23, 2013 I'm not picking on you.. but I have to say.. if this is true (and you are not just exaggerating), that seems to me personally as kind of obsessive. OK, try this. Close your eyes. OK. Now. Think about the dye system. Think about how awesome it could have been if they just added another kiosk or built functionality into the existing kiosk. Think about how simple what would have been. Think about how great it would be if all of the dyes were just listed on the Cartel Market. OK. Now think about what we have today. There. See it? On a lighter note? so how many pieces of gear have you dyed now? There is plenty of dye that has nothing to do with the CM. Selling cheap on the GTN too I might add. So far just my main BH. He has that Ancient Vindicator's Cestguard. The one with the cape. It was Black and Red. I changed the secondary color to grey. It matches pretty well actually. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarthTHC Posted May 23, 2013 Share Posted May 23, 2013 (edited) OK, try this. Close your eyes. OK. Now. Think about the dye system. Think about how awesome it could have been if they just added another kiosk or built functionality into the existing kiosk. Think about how simple what would have been. Think about how great it would be if all of the dyes were just listed on the Cartel Market. OK. Now think about what we have today. There. See it? I see it. What we have today is GLORIOUS. I have to spend zero cartel coins to get whatever dye pack I want... except those gated by silly things like the CE vendor and/or reputations I don't have, which still aren't cartel coin purchases; I just can't get them. Very happy with it. Very. Edited May 23, 2013 by DarthTHC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anzel Posted May 23, 2013 Share Posted May 23, 2013 I see it. What we have today is GLORIOUS. Very happy with it. Very. Said no one. Ever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarthTHC Posted May 23, 2013 Share Posted May 23, 2013 Said no one. Ever. Except someone just did. You know, the guy who argued over the course of several posts with Andryah that the cartel and dye packs were, in fact, gambling? I'm far more put-off that I have to relog or go through a loading screen dozens of times to get the missions I want in my crew skill list than I am that I have to have a bit of patience and credits to get the dye packs I might want. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andryah Posted May 23, 2013 Share Posted May 23, 2013 Very happy with it. Very. Same here. We may water the stump between us on a word.. but on this we agree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts