Assassinate...yay or nay?

[Hockaday]

Ok Lady and Gent Sins (and shadows) out there, do you use assassinate while Raid tanking? I ask, because I know some may say "why not, free high(er) damage ability) but, my concern is keybind space. Since it seems we need to keybind two medpacks now, I'm looking to make room.

 

I personally think there is no "need" to use it...as in you aren't doing yourself a diservice to yourself like if you weren't using maul.

 

Opinions? KBN? Dip? Kitru?

[Kitru]

Ok Lady and Gent Sins (and shadows) out there, do you use assassinate while Raid tanking? I ask, because I know some may say "why not, free high(er) damage ability) but, my concern is keybind space. Since it seems we need to keybind two medpacks now, I'm looking to make room.

 

I replaced my Saber Strike with Shadow Strike, which is where I got the space for it on my bars. Shadow tanks are drowning in so much Force now that there really isn't much need to have SS any more. It helps that I no longer use a use relic, which opened up another slot (so I have Saber Strike on my bar, but it's not one of my "primary" keys).

 

Shadow Wrap is an *amazing* proc: it gives you a *lot* more damage (Shadow Strike deals roughly 50% more damage) on one of your "Double Strikes" every 10 seconds. The only thing that *might* make you not want to use it (beyond the whole "one more button to push") is that there is an almost infinitesimally small decrease in your self healing since Shadow Strike has only a 30% chance to proc PA as opposed to DS's 51% (I honestly think it would be more appropriate for Shadow Strike and Spinning Strike to have a 50% chance on hit to proc PA to make up for their lower number of hits; there's already precedent for different abilities having different proc chances thanks to Assault VG/Commandos). Essentially, you're trading a tiny amount of self healing that you probably will never notice for a noticeable increase in your total damage dealt. As such, I err on the side of Shadow Wrap being something of a necessity.

[dipstik]

i believe kitru has argued in the past that increases in damage can be weighed against other stuff (i was not part of the conversation but i think it pertained to the allocation of skill tree points) by considering how much faster the boss goes down with your additional damage

 

i never thought about those kind of trades before, but it is worth considering. i just think using the proc makes the build more fun to play. shadows tanks are pulling some pretty good dps.

Edited May 10, 2013 by dipstik

[Hockaday]

Is shadow wrap the below 30% ability? Because that's why I'm talking about. And there is no proc for that ability, to increase its damage or other wise for a sin tank.

 

As for sin tanks swiming in force and removing saber strike...I disagree. Saberstrike is still needed for off tanking or when you're not taking huge amounts of damage. So I like to have it easily accesible. Though, I may switch things out int he future, in my current set up, everything is perfectly fine.

 

The ability i'm talking about is http://www.torhead.com/ability/44kDajg/assassinate Useable below 30% HP on a raid mob. While it does increase dps a bit, I don't think it matters -enough- to warrant it being a necisity. Such as Maul, since maul can and is used at any %.

[Kitru]

Ya, I confused Assassinate (equivalent to Spinning Strike) with Maul (equivalent to Shadow Strike). Assassinate has always sounded like it should have been the backstab rather than Maul. Maul just doesn't sound "backstabby" to me.

 

Spinning Strike is actually the #1 priority attack in my attack string: it hits like a friggin' *truck*. Even if it drops my survivability a bit, the increase in damage is, as I see it, worth it, especially since execute phases tend to be the enrage timer phases where you need to kill the target *asap* and you're burning CDs to stay alive anyways.

[Hockaday]

Ok, yeah I'm of similar thinking. was just thinking about ways to make room until i can afford a proper mouse. maybe i'll use another activator for Q and E. Not happy about the crappyness of the new medpack.

[Omophorus]

Ok Lady and Gent Sins (and shadows) out there, do you use assassinate while Raid tanking? I ask, because I know some may say "why not, free high(er) damage ability) but, my concern is keybind space. Since it seems we need to keybind two medpacks now, I'm looking to make room.

 

I personally think there is no "need" to use it...as in you aren't doing yourself a diservice to yourself like if you weren't using maul.

 

Opinions? KBN? Dip? Kitru?

 

It's free DPS. Don't leave it on the table if you don't have to. It's strictly superior to Maul, so if you made room for Maul in your priority, you should make room for Assassinate as well.

 

I could see the keybind space argument, but I don't know that I buy it. I use a G600 MMO mouse, which does help considerably, but between Q, E, R, F, Z, X, C, V, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, and ` easily reachable from WASD (or even more if you switch to ESDF), plus all their various permutations with shift and CTRL (easily hit via pinky), and then 6, 7, 8, 9, 0, -, and = for lower-frequency binds (that you could hit right-handed if necessary, as full-time mouse control isn't really needed if you don't have a significant number of binds on it). On top of that, there is plenty of low-frequency stuff that can easily be click-fired with a little smarts in setting up your interface to minimize wasted time/screen space reaching the appropriate hotbar.

Edited May 10, 2013 by Omophorus

[Shatterstar]

You will want to use it, it is quite worth it. Especially since it can proc a front maul, just like thrash does. It makes for a great burst combo.

[throwdownj]

Ok Lady and Gent Sins (and shadows) out there, do you use assassinate while Raid tanking? I ask, because I know some may say "why not, free high(er) damage ability) but, my concern is keybind space. Since it seems we need to keybind two medpacks now, I'm looking to make room.

 

I personally think there is no "need" to use it...as in you aren't doing yourself a diservice to yourself like if you weren't using maul.

 

Opinions? KBN? Dip? Kitru?

 

what do you mean keybind 2 medpacks now? what ones and for what situation? just wanting to learn. thanks

[KeyboardNinja]

Assassinate is indeed a slight drop in survivability, but well worth it. As was mentioned previously: if you made room for Maul in your rotation, you should make room for Assassinate. Unlike Kitru, I don't quite put it to the *top* of my priority queue (fully proc'd Force Lightning comes first), but it's pretty high up there.

 

Regarding keybinds, my set of bound powers has definitely increased quite a bit in 2.0. I use the following keybinds:

 

• 1 - Saber Strike (old habits die hard)
  
• 2 - Double Strike
  
• 3 - Spinning Strike
  
• 4 - Shadow Strike
  
• 5 - Slow Time
  
• Alt-1 - Project
  
• Alt-2 - Telekinetic Throw
  
• Alt-3 - Force Stun (bad placement, but another old habit)
  
• Alt-4 - Force Breach
  
• Alt-5 - Whirling Blow (deprioritized from pre-2.0 placement due to FB CD reduction)
  
• Shift-` - Deflection
  
• Shift-1 - Resilience
  
• Shift-2 - Force Speed
  
• Shift-3 - Kinetic Ward
  
• Shift-4 - Force Potency
  
• Shift-5 - Battle Readiness (old positioning from when BR wasn't quite as good)
  
• Ctrl-1 - Single Target Taunt
  
• Ctrl-2 - AoE Taunt
  
• Ctrl-3 - Force Pull
  
• Ctrl-4 - Force Lift
  
• F - Force Wave
  
• Shift-F - Force Kick
  
• ` - Interrupt
  
• T - Stun Break
  
• X - Stealth
  
• Shift-X - Force Cloak
  
• E - Blackout
  
• Shift-E - Mez (or Throw Huttball, when relevant)
  
• Shift-S - Force Slow
  
• Shift-W - Phase Walk
  
• Shift-Q - Adrenal
  
• Shift-B - Medpack
  
• R - Relic (when relevant)
  
• G - Guard (I do highly recommend keybinding this ability)
  

 

I think that's all of them. I also keybind my vehicle and my rocket boots, and I keybind my stim (though I usually just click it). I'm not using any special mouse or keyboard, and my movement keys are still WASD, with A and D bound to strafe. Auto-Run is my middle mouse button, and I spam the heck out of it even in combat (movement + camera turn == awesome).

 

I have played a lot of the advanced classes in this game, and I honestly feel like the shadow/assassin tank has the most abilities used of any of them. Marauders/Sentinels do have a lot, but most of them are only used in extremely situational environments and/or with certain specs. Commando healers also have a lot, but most of them are worthless and can be binned without looking back.

[Omophorus]

You have way too many binds.

 

1 - Taunt

2 - Taunt

3 - Taunt

4 - Saber Strike

W - Backpedal

A - Backpedal

S - Backpedal

D - Backpedal

R - G18 bind "Rez plz"

 

Edit: This bad joke brought to you by the average PUG Assassin on Ebon Hawk.

Edited May 11, 2013 by Omophorus

[Kitru]

Unlike Kitru, I don't quite put it to the *top* of my priority queue (fully proc'd Force Lightning comes first), but it's pretty high up there.

 

The basic logic I have for putting Spinning Strike on the absolute top is that it's on a 6 sec CD whereas TkT's use is predicated upon getting 3 other abilities off (one of which is made more effective with the use of Spinning Strike). Putting Spinning Strike at the top causes a functionally negligible drop in my TkT use while dramatically increasing my real damage (waiting for TkT while my Spinning Strike is avail is going to seriously impact the value of Spinning Strike thanks to that 6 sec CD).

[Omophorus]

I have played a lot of the advanced classes in this game, and I honestly feel like the shadow/assassin tank has the most abilities used of any of them. Marauders/Sentinels do have a lot, but most of them are only used in extremely situational environments and/or with certain specs. Commando healers also have a lot, but most of them are worthless and can be binned without looking back.

 

In seriousness though, I think that most classes are about on par if you keep everything useful bound and swap specs regularly.

 

I use at least 30 binds on any given AC, except for Powertech (which is about as faceroll as faceroll gets), and I think in terms of quantity that see regular use, it's basically a toss-up between Marauder, Operative, and Assassin.

 

Marauder has the absolute most binds, but the highest proportion of occasional-use binds as well.

 

My level 30 Juggernaut has nearly as many binds as my Powertech, so I expect that Juggy might wind up taking the crown once it's fully leveled.

[KeyboardNinja]

The basic logic I have for putting Spinning Strike on the absolute top is that it's on a 6 sec CD whereas TkT's use is predicated upon getting 3 other abilities off (one of which is made more effective with the use of Spinning Strike). Putting Spinning Strike at the top causes a functionally negligible drop in my TkT use while dramatically increasing my real damage (waiting for TkT while my Spinning Strike is avail is going to seriously impact the value of Spinning Strike thanks to that 6 sec CD).

 

I've thought about this as well. The problem I have with it is Spinning Strike has a tendency to wander through the rotation. Under ideal circumstances, we get TkT once every 12 seconds, which aligns nicely with the 6 second CD on Spinning Strike. Unfortunately, Spinning Strike is on the GCD (*brief pause while we appreciate how awesome it would be if it weren't*), which means it displaces or is displaced by Slow Time and, more importantly, Project. This throws off a lot of the timing in the rotation. If nothing else, it means that TkT is delayed by the duration of the GCD, since we normally average only one Double Strike per cycle. In practice, it's closer to 2 GCDs due to the displacement of Project. Now we're getting TkT every 15 seconds, which is no longer nicely divisible by the 6 second CD on Spinning Strike. Hence, the wandering.

 

The other option is to use Spinning Strike in the same slot as Double Strike or Shadow Strike, but with a higher priority. This isn't particularly desirable *either* because it halves the average DPS contribution of Spinning Strike (since we only get to use it once per cycle).

 

The ideal is probably to treat it situationally. If this is a high damage boss where every ounce of survivability matters, using Spinning Strike *at all* is going to have a measurable impact on HPS, but not a significant one so long as it doesn't displace Project or Slow Time. On the other hand, if the healers aren't having trouble keeping up in the sub-30% phase, then Spinning Strike should move to the top of the queue (despite disrupting the periodicity of the rotation).

 

R - G18 bind "Rez plz"

 

Edit: This bad joke brought to you by the average PUG Assassin on Ebon Hawk.

 

:-) I used to think our server had the worst PUG tanks (especially shadows) of any server. Then I played on the PTS. Given that the average tank calibre on the PTS was far, far worse than the average tank calibre on The Ebon Hawk, it's probably safe to say that we're in better shape than most servers.

 

With that said, I do wish I could keybind "Do you *ever* use Kinetic Ward?" on my healer…

Edited May 12, 2013 by KeyboardNinja

[Kitru]

I've thought about this as well. The problem I have with it is Spinning Strike has a tendency to wander through the rotation. Under ideal circumstances, we get TkT once every 12 seconds, which aligns nicely with the 6 second CD on Spinning Strike. Unfortunately, Spinning Strike is on the GCD (*brief pause while we appreciate how awesome it would be if it weren't*), which means it displaces or is displaced by Slow Time and, more importantly, Project. This throws off a lot of the timing in the rotation. If nothing else, it means that TkT is delayed by the duration of the GCD, since we normally average only one Double Strike per cycle. In practice, it's closer to 2 GCDs due to the displacement of Project. Now we're getting TkT every 15 seconds, which is no longer nicely divisible by the 6 second CD on Spinning Strike. Hence, the wandering.

 

In my experience, thanks to the gobs of Force that we now almost drown in, the practical CD of Project is closer to 3 seconds (DS, Shadow Strike, and Spinning Strike resetting the CD) and Slow Time is only ever really required once every 12 seconds or so (re: once per 12 second TkT cycle). With those basic assumptions, *everything* fits within a basic 3 second use cycle when averaged over time. It's not going to be *perfectly* in sync, but, over time, it will be. As such, I've never really experienced a noticeable drop in survivability when using Spinning Strike as the top priority (and neither have my healers, who I've asked if there was any real difference in my damage taken during certain phases).

 

Of course, as I mentioned before, I tend to burn my CDs during the execute phase anyways (at least on execute phases for single bosses, rather than adds/multi-bosses/etc.) where the minute decrease in survivability from the potential decrease in TkT use is offset by the fact that my mitigation is shot through the roof. So, even if the priority I was using stopped me from using TkT completely, I would still probably end up with better average functional mitigation than outside of the execute phases.

 

:-) I used to think our server had the worst PUG tanks (especially shadows) of any server. Then I played on the PTS. Given that the average tank calibre on the PTS was far, far worse than the average tank calibre on The Ebon Hawk, it's probably safe to say that we're in better shape than most servers.

 

I think a lot of the problem with the PTS tanks was that there were a fair number that weren't used to dealing with the new mechanics of the given classes or operating without their finely tuned keybind/bar setups, combined with a fair number of players that were using the PTS as a test platform for tanking. The tanks on live servers are going to be tanks that actually *want* to tank and benefit from the "home field" advantage derived from having their finely honed setups intact.

 

With that said, I do wish I could keybind "Do you *ever* use Kinetic Ward?" on my healer…

 

I haven't been playing my healers all that often (my only 55 atm is my Shadow because I'm enjoying it too much and can't bear to pry myself away from playing her long enough to pull my multitudinous other characters from 50 to 55), but I have a great story about a tank refusing to use KW in an FP. A little over a month back (shortly before RotHC dropped), I was healing an HM FP with a tank that was only marginally geared for it (partial Black Hole, mostly Tionese) who *absolutely refused* to use KW. After explicitly asking the tank to use KW multiple times, the tank finally responded that he wasn't going to use it at all, not because he didn't think he needed it or because he didn't recognize its value, but because it represented clicking one extra button every 10 seconds or so. He was *so* lazy that he refused to use one of the fundamental Shadow tanking skills because it was, apparently, too much work to increase the number of keys pressed from ~7 every 10 seconds to ~8.

 

Upon hearing that, I simply stopped healing said terribad tank who began complaining almost immediately. My response was that healing him was "too much work" and that I wasn't going to do it until he decided that the both of us were willing to put forth some token bit of additional effort. When said tank *still* refused to use KW (after dying to trash packs 2-3 times even after burning CDs to survive them), I just continued healing the DPS. Eventually I was kicked from the group by said tank (after a couple boss fights where the tank died almost immediately and I healed the DPS through without any problems), but it still boggled me at the sheer audacity and stubbornness of that tank concerning not using KW. Even while *dying repeatedly*, apparently using KW was just too much work.

[Hockaday]

Reminds me I need to make a bind for force slow, I used to use that lol. Might start off with CD as well.

[Hockaday]

what do you mean keybind 2 medpacks now? what ones and for what situation? just wanting to learn. thanks

Rakata (or the blue version, idr it), lower heal, but boosts max hp.

New one. Bigger heal, no hp boost.

[throwdownj]

Rakata (or the blue version, idr it), lower heal, but boosts max hp.

New one. Bigger heal, no hp boost.

 

and why would you need to boost max hp? like what situation would that help much more then just the bigger heal one? i know if you used it right before a that thing that heals for 10% + a tkt it could make a bit of a difference but what else?

[Kitru]

and why would you need to boost max hp? like what situation would that help much more then just the bigger heal one? i know if you used it right before a that thing that heals for 10% + a tkt it could make a bit of a difference but what else?

 

The only situation I could imagine it being useful would be right before you're hit by a Terminate. If your max hp is short of the ~32k+, the extra hp would be useful, but, since you're getting that once every 2 minutes or so (assuming you're using Force Cloak to reset it), you're still going to be eating half of the Terminates without it. Maybe if you're tank swapping for each one it might be better (my ops just has a single tank, which is generally me, take it since I can outright ignore it with Resilience; the other tank is there in reserve, in case the Terminate wipes me out even through Resilience), but I can't really imagine the extra hp being useful in any other situation. Even the extra hp you'd get from a max hp boosted TkT would be less than the extra heal you'd get from the bigger medpack.

[KeyboardNinja]

The only situation I could imagine it being useful would be right before you're hit by a Terminate. If your max hp is short of the ~32k+, the extra hp would be useful, but, since you're getting that once every 2 minutes or so (assuming you're using Force Cloak to reset it), you're still going to be eating half of the Terminates without it. Maybe if you're tank swapping for each one it might be better (my ops just has a single tank, which is generally me, take it since I can outright ignore it with Resilience; the other tank is there in reserve, in case the Terminate wipes me out even through Resilience), but I can't really imagine the extra hp being useful in any other situation. Even the extra hp you'd get from a max hp boosted TkT would be less than the extra heal you'd get from the bigger medpack.

 

We generally swap on the Terminate because Resilience won't be back up for the next one. It also factors out issues like defensive cooldowns not working some of the time, which appears to be a bug that has surfaced post-2.0 (I have another thread about this).

[Kitru]

We generally swap on the Terminate because Resilience won't be back up for the next one. It also factors out issues like defensive cooldowns not working some of the time, which appears to be a bug that has surfaced post-2.0 (I have another thread about this).

 

When I was tanking it, my Resilience came up right before Terminate was going to be cast so I was perfectly capable of solo tanking it. /shrug

 

I recognize the occasional failure of Resilience to do its job (and I'm still curious as to what exactly is *causing* it to occur), but that's why we keep the other tank in reserve: if I *do* take the Terminate to the face, the other tank is there to pick up after me if I die (even when it hits, I don't generally die because, if that happens, I've got a tank CD to cover me).

[Aurojiin]

the other tank is there to pick up after me if I die (even when it hits, I don't generally die because, if that happens, I've got a tank CD to cover me).

I'm confused as to why you would die unless Terminate oneshots you. Are your healers afk?

[Leafy_Bug]

In my opinion, when people are asking about other people's keybinds they only make life hard for themselves. What some people use may not be comfortable for you. So having said that, you need to decide for yourself, what comfort zone you have for your gameplay. For example, I opted for a clear separation of skills for my shadow.

 

First and foremost, I put in my face, easy to spot on the eyes, very important abilities, with long cooldown. From here I made a split between offensive and defensive. After I understood this structure, I continued with the rest. So this is what I use as keybinds:

 

 

1st group:

-----------------

F1: adrenal of my choice (attack when I play sentine/triage when I heal]

F2 : force potency

F3: battle readiness

F5: Rakata Medpac in PVP or WZ Medpack

F6: Deflection

F8: Absorb Adrenal

F9: Clicky relic if I have one.

 

Note: My mouse g700 allows me to link these and I can pop multiple ones at a touch of a button. For example, i can fop f1+f2 or f1 to f5 or any other combinations i choose

 

2nd group:

---------------

shift+e : phase walk

shift+f: force cloak

f: spinnink kick

shift+z : mind snap for pvp but it is actually mapped left shift and mouse scroll button right (i mapped that as z)

shift+r: cloak

z: kinetic ward which is as i said mouse scroll button right. Easily accessible. I also use this for leap as a sentinel.

alt+end is cc breaker. End is mapped as my scroll mouse button, when i push it down. So i use alt+mouse button scroll push

shift+space: force wave

shift+scroll up : force speed

q: force stun (i made this stun on all my toons)

alt+s: meditate

end: aoe taunt which is as i said mouse scroll button pushed down.

shift+end is guard

 

3rd group:

------------------

1: ds

2. project

3. shadowstrike

4. saber strike

shift+1: force breach

shift+4: force pull. This is practically shift and scroll mouse button left.

shift+3 whirling blow

G: resilience

R: telekinetic throw

alt+` force valour

alt+1 meditation chair

h: rocket boots

t: huttball keybind

 

 

 

I also have some other things such as stims, tinsel thing and party bomb

Edited May 12, 2013 by Leafy_Bug

[KeyboardNinja]

I'm confused as to why you would die unless Terminate oneshots you. Are your healers afk?

 

Well, you know, that fight can lull you to sleep as a healer if your DPS are self-cleansing…

 

The boss does hit hard enough that, even assuming you're topped off prior to Terminate, you're probably only going to get 5-10 seconds before you're dead after Terminate. That's more than enough time for a healer to prop you up, but it never hurts to be careful. I try to always assume that the healers have other things on their plates, unless there's a really good reason for me to save a CD (in which case I'll glance at the raid frame and make a judgment call). On that fight, there's absolutely no reason not to burn BR after a Resilience fail on Terminate, since you have no need for it elsewhere. Deflection would also be acceptable.

Edited May 12, 2013 by KeyboardNinja

[Kitru]

I'm confused as to why you would die unless Terminate oneshots you. Are your healers afk?

 

I've been running 16m ops (I'm not sure if the turrets do random targeting in 8m as well, but I definitely get tagged a few times by the adds even when I'm not even looking at them). As such, the first few times I did it, even with the healers spamming like there was no tomorrow, I survived Terminate only to get cut down by the turrets (or the turrets pulled me down just low enough for a failed/delayed Resilience let Terminate drop me). When things go right, I can solo tank it straight through, but there's always that chance that I'm gonna get dropped thanks to bad luck.