Subscription: Advertisement vs Truth

[CosmicKat]

I wouldn't even call them haters.

 

I'd just call them mature adults.

 

Haters are the ones that cry "I can't find the unsub button!!1!!1 It doesn't exist! BW is forcing me to stay!!1!!1!11"

 

Is it mature for the Spin Team to instantly flood every thread where the majority of paying customers are expressing frustration and displeasure with any game element in an attempt to drown out those legitimate concerns from paying customers?

 

Is it mature to always side with the corporation, even when they are allegedly customers of said corporation?

 

They would have gotten away with it too, if not for us meddling old timers!

[DuckimusPrime]

Okay. Listen. I've got a compromise. Let me know what you think:

 

What if subscribers were given some Cartel Coins every month for free? Then, subscribers wouldn't need to pay extra for anything!

 

Would this be on top of the monthly stipend of 500 that I pay for as part of my subscription?

[DuckimusPrime]

The OP tried to pin them on their statement of content for subscribers as justification for complaint. Eric pointed out that it is still currently accurate and that they will be revising it in conjunction with changes to the game in patch 2.1

That's called bait and switch advertising. Its illegal in most places where the Government actually care about its citizens.

 

And the fact that people would defend a company for such deplorable behaviour tells you something about their status. But then again, you made it pretty obvious you're nothing but a shill long ago.

Edited April 29, 2013 by DuckimusPrime

[Kilora]

Is it mature for the Spin Team to instantly flood every thread where the majority of paying customers are expressing frustration and displeasure with any game element in an attempt to drown out those legitimate concerns from paying customers?

 

Is it mature to always side with the corporation, even when they are allegedly customers of said corporation?

 

They would have gotten away with it too, if not for us meddling old timers!

 

I think the problem is -- people like me. I'll be the first to blast BW for making stupid decisions, but I don't continue to screech once they've admitted fault. There are too many screechers on these forums who aren't looking to be constructive -- solely to scream and throw their tantrum, and pick up a few haters on the band-wagon of attention.

 

I'm sick of seeing the same threads over and over again -- with the same people, complaining about the same things that BW has already -- 1, started to fix; 2, admitted to a mistake, and looking into it; or 3, isn't actually a BW problem.

 

Or, people debating the morality of BW. Really unnecessary -- BW is a for-profit business. Morality is subjective -- and their primary focus is on profit, with a secondary focus on pleasing the consumer.

 

Clearly, they're just not getting to the point where profit isn't as much of an issue -- meaning, the game has stabilized. They are working on things, and doing a much better job at communicating.

 

But they're also being screamed at for "Lack" of information when communicating, because they don't *have* the information to give.

 

 

TL;DR - Both the "spin crew" and the "screechers" are in the wrong, and they are BOTH crazy. Screechers are fueled by emotion, and the "spin crew" becomes the polar opposite because they are sick of hearing people whine about the same things in a non-constructive and combative manner.

[uaintjak]

I don't feel entitled to anything. I simply expressed my displeasure with their plan. I don't feel I was overly aggressive or 'ranting' as someone else mentioned. I certainly didn't threaten legal action like that same poster described...that would be silly. I just simply expressed that I wasn't happy w/ the way they appear to be handling it. I was even sure to say that it won't change my enjoyment of the game and I won't be playing any less. However, if anyone says anything remotely negative you instantly cast them as a whiner. Step back for a moment and allow people an opinion without casting insults. I wasn't disrespectful to BW or any other posters.

 

Don't bother trying to be rational with Andryah. She flies to the defense of every single decision EAware makes regardless of how well (or how poorly) the person who disagrees expresses themselves, with all the subtlety of a bull in a china shop. It would be comic if it weren't so boring and predictable.

 

There's nothing wrong with expressing your displeasure. I assure you, you are not alone in your feelings.

[Kilora]

That's called bait and switch advertising. Its illegal in most places where the Government actually care about its citizens.

 

And the fact that people would defend a company for such deplorable behaviour tells you something about their status. But then again, you made it pretty obvious you're nothing but a shill long ago.

 

You realize how quickly you lose any credibility by attacking other people?

 

This isn't bait and switch. You aren't being promised any of this stuff for a specific amount of time. They aren't lying about anything.

 

Is it morally sound for them to make a profit by charging for things that some people disagree with them charging for? Meh, not really. But please, show me a morally sound business that makes a profit.

 

This is called reality. I suggest you join it. You are paying to play a game that is constantly changing. You even agreed to a LEGAL document saying you accept that. Hell -- they can shut the servers down in 30 days (obviously, if they /cancel all recurring subs, and refund those with longer subscriptions) and you have no foot to stand on.

 

Doesn't matter if it is a moral decision or not. And to cry about a small "species" customization? Maybe they should've included cathar in RotHC and charged $40 for non-subs, and $30 for subs.

 

But wait -- we'd still have people crying over something!

 

Don't like the business? Don't support the business. It's called reality -- you shouldn't waste your time trying to keep a business moral, because they couldn't care less about you.

[MisterMuse]

I believe the issue that you wanted to have addressed is that currently it states "Full access to all character creation choices." As of this moment this terminology is still correct as subscribers do have full access to those choices. We will be updating that page (along with any others that make similar references) once Game Update 2.1 goes live.

 

-eric

 

The issue which I presented really applies to the principle of the matter, not the Cathar race specifically. The idea that the very page you guys use to advertise for becoming a sub is subject to change at any moment really doesn't feel very safe to me. The fear (That I had when I started this thread) was that other areas of the game will begin to follow the same path.The "fluff" is nearly exclusive to the CM and watching how this is developing I'm just fearing one day when I wake up and read about a new flashpoint being released the same way.

Edited April 29, 2013 by MisterMuse

[Shingara]

The issue which I presented really applies to the principle of the matter, not the Cathar race specifically. The idea that the very page you guys use to advertise for becoming a sub is subject to change at any moment really doesn't feel very safe to me. The fear (That I had when I started this thread) was that other areas of the game will begin to follow the same path.The "fluff" is nearly exclusive to the CM and watching how this is developing I'm just fearing one day when I wake up and read about a new flashpoint being released the same way.

 

I would like to point you to ----------> http://www.swtor.com/legalnotices/euala

[Kilora]

The issue which I presented really applies to the principle of the matter, not the Cathar race specifically. The idea that the very page you guys use to advertise for becoming a sub is subject to change at any moment really doesn't feel very safe to me. The fear (That I had when I started this thread) was that other areas of the game will begin to follow the same path.The "fluff" is nearly exclusive to the CM and watching how this is developing I'm just fearing one day when I wake up and read about a new flashpoint being released the same way.

 

Why worry now?

 

In all seriousness, there really isn't any proof that they will ever head down the road of FPs or WZs or OPs being purchaseable solely through CC -- unless, of course, it's an expansion.

 

Don't let others drag you down into the slippery slope fear. Enjoy the game, play it as you'd like to (within the terms and such BW gave you, of course) and stop worrying.

 

If it happens? THEN you should say something. That is the point where you unsub and let them know why you did.

 

Constantly being afraid of what might happen is no way to live your life. And it's certainly no way to play a video game >.<

[MisterMuse]

I would like to point you to ----------> http://www.swtor.com/legalnotices/euala

 

Its not really about the actual laws. I'm not a native speaker so my use of false advertisement seemed to have pushed people to think I was taking about EA/Bioware breaking laws (I'm sorry for that). I'm more talking about the safety of being a subscriber to this game.

[MisterMuse]

Why worry now?

 

In all seriousness, there really isn't any proof that they will ever head down the road of FPs or WZs or OPs being purchaseable solely through CC -- unless, of course, it's an expansion.

 

Don't let others drag you down into the slippery slope fear. Enjoy the game, play it as you'd like to (within the terms and such BW gave you, of course) and stop worrying.

 

If it happens? THEN you should say something. That is the point where you unsub and let them know why you did.

 

Constantly being afraid of what might happen is no way to live your life. And it's certainly no way to play a video game >.<

 

I was tiered and has just read the post about the Cathar and Barber Shop on Dulfy, naturally I worry. I like playing this game, there's wonderful people, rather fun content so if there's something I'm afraid of I'd rather try to express my opinion on the matter. I'm not one for just waiting for things to go down and then abandon something I like.

[Eillack]

I believe the issue that you wanted to have addressed is that currently it states "Full access to all character creation choices." As of this moment this terminology is still correct as subscribers do have full access to those choices. We will be updating that page (along with any others that make similar references) once Game Update 2.1 goes live.

 

-eric

 

You can only "alter the deal" so far before you get another group of players leaving.

 

Everyone should take a screenshot of all the original descriptions for parts of this game before we get more backstabbing.

Edited April 29, 2013 by Eillack

[Nydus]

I'm not going to complain until I see it implemented.

 

- Arcada

[CosmicKat]

Why worry now?

 

In all seriousness, there really isn't any proof that they will ever head down the road of FPs or WZs or OPs being purchaseable solely through CC -- unless, of course, it's an expansion.

 

Don't let others drag you down into the slippery slope fear. Enjoy the game, play it as you'd like to (within the terms and such BW gave you, of course) and stop worrying.

 

If it happens? THEN you should say something. That is the point where you unsub and let them know why you did.

 

Constantly being afraid of what might happen is no way to live your life. And it's certainly no way to play a video game >.<

 

Facts would seem to counter your assumptions.

 

Let's use outfits as an example. Pre-CM there were new items added into the game that cost you nothing beyond your basic subscription. Then the CM came and those items went exclusively to the CM for the equivalent of a month's subscription cost per set. They had full mods in them worth 100,000's of credits. Then the outfits dropped those expensive mods, and went up in price by roughly 25%. Then those outfits were shifted to where we are now, almost exclusively only available in gambling bags that are likely to cost you much much more than a few months worth of subscription to attain.

 

In that example, an outfit went from "free" to potentially $50+ of real world money in a few short months. If that is not the definition of "slippery slope", I don't know what is.

[Rankyn]

You can only "alter the deal" so far before you get another group of players leaving.

 

Everyone should take a screenshot of all the original descriptions for parts of this game before we get more backstabbing.

I'm sure the money the "altered deal" gains them will more than offset what they lose from people who can't adapt to the changing nature of the business model so I really doubt they're sweating it too much.

[Kilora]

Facts would seem to counter your assumptions.

 

Let's use outfits as an example. Pre-CM there were new items added into the game that cost you nothing beyond your basic subscription. Then the CM came and those items went exclusively to the CM for the equivalent of a month's subscription cost per set. They had full mods in them worth 100,000's of credits. Then the outfits dropped those expensive mods, and went up in price by roughly 25%. Then those outfits were shifted to where we are now, almost exclusively only available in gambling bags that are likely to cost you much much more than a few months worth of subscription to attain.

 

In that example, an outfit went from "free" to potentially $50+ of real world money in a few short months. If that is not the definition of "slippery slope", I don't know what is.

 

Do you know what "slippery slope" is? You just agreed that the argument you are using is a fallacy. . . .

 

We have NO real reason to believe they will turn real content into cartel market purchases for subs. They've yet to do so -- and they've even spoken to the concern numerous times. They are aware that the playerbase doesn't want to see P2W or some sub + microtransactions + expacs for all of the content.

 

Honestly, I wouldn't be surprised if they did away with the whole sub model at some point. I won't be happy, and I'll probably stop playing the game -- but I feel that many people will enjoy picking pieces of the game to play a-la-carte.

 

Personally? I'd love to go back to the old-school subs. $15/mo and I get everything, except for maybe a server transfer or faction change. But, I also realize the market has already shifted, and we probably won't ever see that again. Not enough chance of big $$$ for the CEOs of these corporations.

[Lostpenguins]

Is it mature for the Spin Team to instantly flood every thread where the majority of paying customers are expressing frustration and displeasure with any game element in an attempt to drown out those legitimate concerns from paying customers?

 

Is it mature to always side with the corporation, even when they are allegedly customers of said corporation?

 

They would have gotten away with it too, if not for us meddling old timers!

1 - Funny you should be dictating what is mature and what isn't when you decide to label and insult people as "the Spin Team". Your ideas of what are mature at laughable.

2 - You have no idea if it's "the majority" or not. The fact is that forum posters are a small percent of the actual number of players. Second fact is that the number of people in this thread who agree is a small percent of the people who post on this forum. Go ahead, add up the number of people who agree. It's going to be less than 100. Now, if there's < 200 paying customers in this entire game, then you are correct to say "the majority". However, you are no where close to that, so, once again, you're throwing false statement to give weight to your argument. And, once again, you do it so poorly.

3 - I don't always side with the corporation. I don't like how this game has ability delay and they seem unable to fix it. I've already mentioned that if they don't fix it before next expansion I definitely won't be coming back.

4 - Honestly, you lack any sort of ability to discuss things in an intelligent way and just go immediately to labeling and refuse to acknowledge points made that you have no counter to. But, go ahead, keep yelling and screaming and crying about the CM while you continue to play this game month after month.

[Lostpenguins]

Would this be on top of the monthly stipend of 500 that I pay for as part of my subscription?

No, did you first start subbing in this game before their was CC's? Then, no, your sub doesn't pay for the coins. It's a reward, like bonus points or frequent flyer miles.

[WarbNull]

I believe the issue that you wanted to have addressed is that currently it states "Full access to all character creation choices." As of this moment this terminology is still correct as subscribers do have full access to those choices. We will be updating that page (along with any others that make similar references) once Game Update 2.1 goes live.

 

-eric

So you are basically going to take that away from the Subscribers.

That is kind of Sheisty, to say the least.

You set the ground work for what it means to be a Subscriber by listing all the benefits that we get for paying for a Subscription when you implemented the F2P System. Then later on as you try to think of new ways to to earn more money through the Cartel Market, you decide to go back on what you set fourth and change what it means to be a subscriber. That really gives a bad taste to Subscribers. It really gives the impression that you are more interested in making money and just want to focus on the Cartel Market than the actual game. It is basically a slap in the face for the Subscribers.

 

"If that does not show that you all are only interested in the Cartel Market then I do not know what does."

 

My Opinion:

As a Subscriber, Based on what you all set fourth, all I really care about is that we have an option to where we Do Not Have to Purchase ANY Species when making our Characters. (Currently Existing from the core game and Newly Added in the Future.) That we can pick any Species For There Given Class and select a Basic Set of Customization Options for it.

I only base this opinion on what you have originally set fourth when describing the differences between Subscribers, Preferred Status, and Free-To-Play.

 

Take Note that I mentioned For There Given Class. I do think that Each Species should be limited to a Certain Class like you have already done with the other Species. It was a good Idea having to Play them all the way to the end in order to unlock them for use in other Classes. Also having the option to Un-Lock the Species in the Legacy with In-Game Credits or Cartel Coins if you wish to Bypass that.

What would be cool is if you all decide to make it selectable for any Class and when you finish it and Un-Lock it in the Legacy that it gives you a Bonus like we get with the Human Species and its +100 Presence. I would be fine with that.

 

Also Take Note that I said Basic Set of Customization Options. I worded it that way because I feel a little differently about having an in-game Barbershop, or in the case the Designer Kiosk. I think that it is perfectly OK to have New and Un-Accessible Options for how the characters look which we can purchase with In-Game Credits as well as Cartel Coins for those F2P Players. Just as long as we have a Basic Set of Customization Options during the Character Creation Process.

 

 

 

One last thing. You all better not remove ANY Customization Options from what we currently have for existing Character Creation.

 

Anyway... That is my opinion on this matter. Of coarse with the Track Record of BioWare as of late, they will more than likely do the opposite of what we many of us desire. You can see that I am pretty much saddened by there chooses as of late.

[Lostpenguins]

Facts would seem to counter your assumptions.

 

Let's use outfits as an example. Pre-CM there were new items added into the game that cost you nothing beyond your basic subscription. Then the CM came and those items went exclusively to the CM for the equivalent of a month's subscription cost per set. They had full mods in them worth 100,000's of credits. Then the outfits dropped those expensive mods, and went up in price by roughly 25%. Then those outfits were shifted to where we are now, almost exclusively only available in gambling bags that are likely to cost you much much more than a few months worth of subscription to attain.

 

In that example, an outfit went from "free" to potentially $50+ of real world money in a few short months. If that is not the definition of "slippery slope", I don't know what is.

Lol, what? Were these outfits available before the CM Market? If they were, can you still obtain them, in game, w/out using the CM market? Are there new outfits avaible outside of the CM Market?

 

You're doing the same thing again as you did with your bad 1984 spin. They didn't take any outfits away and then put them up on the CM. Those are add'l outfits in the game. Also, they didn't stop making new outfits in this game. If they did, then I have no idea what those guys are wearking in the new Ark and Ult sets...

 

As for those mods in CM shells... lol... if you think those were worth anything for the mods you're kidding yourself. People could already get BiS from the crafters for stats that were far superior to any stat from a CM outfit.

 

Stop lying, you're embarrassing yourself.

[CosmicKat]

1 - Funny you should be dictating what is mature and what isn't when you decide to label and insult people as "the Spin Team". Your ideas of what are mature at laughable.

2 - You have no idea if it's "the majority" or not. The fact is that forum posters are a small percent of the actual number of players. Second fact is that the number of people in this thread who agree is a small percent of the people who post on this forum. Go ahead, add up the number of people who agree. It's going to be less than 100. Now, if there's < 200 paying customers in this entire game, then you are correct to say "the majority". However, you are no where close to that, so, once again, you're throwing false statement to give weight to your argument. And, once again, you do it so poorly.

3 - I don't always side with the corporation. I don't like how this game has ability delay and they seem unable to fix it. I've already mentioned that if they don't fix it before next expansion I definitely won't be coming back.

4 - Honestly, you lack any sort of ability to discuss things in an intelligent way and just go immediately to labeling and refuse to acknowledge points made that you have no counter to. But, go ahead, keep yelling and screaming and crying about the CM while you continue to play this game month after month.

 

I highlighted the passive aggressive attempts to label me an immature, lying, moron in your post.

 

Spin Team Tactic #1 at its best.

 

Irony is sweet.

[Lostpenguins]

I highlighted the passive aggressive attempts to label me an immature, lying, moron in your post.

 

Spin Team Tactic #1 at its best.

 

Irony is sweet.

Lol... you're taking what I say, and putting your own words onto it, who's spinning things now?

 

But sure, I don't find your posts constructive at all. You doom-and-gloom everything, throwing out ridiculous exaggerations like their facts and generally just scream and scream and scream w/out having any sort of real, logical discussion on the matter. It's hilarious that you keep going on and on about the "evils of the CM", but you keep subbing month and month.

 

Cry Wolf Team #1 tactic at it's best.

 

I also like, how, once again, you completely ignore the fact that I called you out on an obvious exaggeration of the "majority" statement, but you refuse to acknowledge that you're just making stuff up. Care to make a rebuttal on that one and show me some sort of empirical proof of how you came up with the "majority"? I'm guessing you won't because you can't.

Edited April 29, 2013 by Lostpenguins

[CosmicKat]

Lol, what? Were these outfits available before the CM Market? If they were, can you still obtain them, in game, w/out using the CM market? Are there new outfits avaible outside of the CM Market?

 

You're doing the same thing again as you did with your bad 1984 spin. They didn't take any outfits away and then put them up on the CM. Those are add'l outfits in the game. Also, they didn't stop making new outfits in this game. If they did, then I have no idea what those guys are wearking in the new Ark and Ult sets...

 

As for those mods in CM shells... lol... if you think those were worth anything for the mods you're kidding yourself. People could already get BiS from the crafters for stats that were far superior to any stat from a CM outfit.

 

Stop lying, you're embarrassing yourself.

 

I never said Item X was in the game for free, taken out, and then re-inserted for a cost. I said items were added to the game for free, now they are not.

 

As a Cybertech and Artificer, I can tell you unequivocally that a complete set of purple mods for a level 31 outfit would cost hundreds of thousands of credits to buy. Blues would easily be over 100,000 credits.

[Lostpenguins]

I never said Item X was in the game for free, taken out, and then re-inserted for a cost. I said items were added to the game for free, now they are not.

 

As a Cybertech and Artificer, I can tell you unequivocally that a complete set of purple mods for a level 31 outfit would cost hundreds of thousands of credits to buy. Blues would easily be over 100,000 credits.

Um... what? Items are still added to the game for free, so that hasn't changed. You are saying "now they are not"... yet I clearly pointed out new outfits from the PvE and PvP vendors... so clearly they are still releasing outfits free from the CM... so clearly you're wrong.

 

As for mods in outfit? No idea what you're talking about. People buy CM outfits for their looks. Having middle-level mods in them were a terrible idea as they were useless mods. You could easily buy cheaper mods on the GTN from crafters then buying an outfit... I should know, I did it while leveling.

[CosmicKat]

Lol... you're taking what I say, and putting your own words onto it, who's spinning things now?

 

But sure, I don't find your posts constructive at all. You doom-and-gloom everything, throwing out ridiculous exaggerations like their facts and generally just scream and scream and scream w/out having any sort of real, logical discussion on the matter. It's hilarious that you keep going on and on about the "evils of the CM", but you keep subbing month and month.

 

Cry Wolf Team #1 tactic at it's best.

 

I also like, how, once again, you completely ignore the fact that I called you out on an obvious exaggeration of the "majority" statement, but you refuse to acknowledge that you're just making stuff up. Care to make a rebuttal on that one and show me some sort of empirical proof of how you came up with the "majority"? I'm guessing you won't because you can't.

 

1. I took your words and made them a different color. Still your words and still your meaning.

 

2. I ignored the fact they you called me out on my obvious exaggeration of the "majority" statement because I never made that statement. I said the majority of posters on this thread were voicing displeasure or frustration, till the attack squad drowned them out.