PVE Pyro Problem? What Problem?

[Chickensevil]

Sardonyyx,

 

Believe me, I feel all of the troubles with PVP are directly related to those very needs you mentioned. I also thought they might have went too far, but as I cannot personally account for any troubles I am relying on anecdotal evidence to support the claims. I think some of my guildies might be finally sorting out their gear so I am facing some real competition on the charts for my given gear finally, so it might not be long before I will be crying about the issues myself. I guess what I was trying to do, was spark up real meaningful conversation about the issues (or possibly non issues) with our class and doing the best I could to back it with some numbers on my end.

 

I'm curious how you could (for lack of a better word) exploit the power process relics to get all four buffs in some kind of PT DPS build. What healing ability so we have as side from going all the way up the tank tree to grab the buff to shoulder cannon? This is why... perhaps the best word would be unfair, or unintended, that you could even dream of proc'ing that relic twice (once for heal and once for DPS). At least the other usage of stacking two process relics is fair to everyone because everyone can DPs to process em both. But when these inevitably get fixed, who is it going to Nerf the most? Snipers. Because they are getting like 400+ DPs from this

 

Omophorous:

 

You know, strangely your anecdotal evidence is more persuasive than trying to compare almost meaningless torparse data. I think most of the issue is trying to get people to post meaningful logs and evidence. This is why, at the time I started this I tried to give a little background on which spec and rotation I was using. While I still think full pyro (with TD) should be the best pyro spec, at the very least we should have an almost full spec that is competitive.

 

Both:

 

In the end, I do feel that we should get a buff if for no other reason then how much they killed us in PVP. You have people in other threads talking about AP being the strongest... if that is supposed to be strong, and AP sucks *** then how much worse is pyro?

 

If there is anything I could do further to help prove the case in either direction, please let me know. I am more than willing to try to show whatever evidence is needed to highlight the problems.

[Chickensevil]

you obviously have no idea what you are talking about... the PvP proc relics work everywhere and do not share a cooldown. It is a broken... not to mention that if you are so simply to think having the ability in ANY setting to proc up to 1200+ power is OK then you bring a whole new level of stupid to the table.

 

Thats what I was trying to say, that 1200 power has gotta be borderline exploiting, at the very least it is NOT intended...

 

edit: just as a comparison I am currently sitting at 986 power... talk about nearly doubling your DPS when that proc's and you wonder why some are sitting at over 3K on a tank and spank fight? I wouldn't consider that a "normal" parse at all... and wouldn't count them as part of the rest of the snipers.

Edited May 13, 2013 by Chickensevil

[Sardonyyx]

The pve relics, which give more power on a proc, don't work in pvp areas. That's what I meant. If you're using two different pvp relics that's another thing, I don't have a conqueror relic yet so idk. I don't really think its fair to call it an exploit though, but if that's what you believe..ok then.

 

And if you look at the passive ability "Up close and personal" it says that if we suffer aoe damage we have a ...don't remember the percentage, 50% maybe, but it heals you for 2.5% of your health. Also increases the duration of our shield by 3 seconds.

[Chickensevil]

Your right, because I would not go so far as to ban people for it. So I don't mean it to come across that way. Yes it only works with the PVP relics, and you need one partisan and one conqueror to make it work. That doesn't take that long to get even if you don't PvP regularly.

 

As to the ability I am nowhere near my game right now to check it out so I would have to get back to you on that. I still think we will see a different landscape when they finally fix these. I am not saying the other classes aren't still better, but it is certainly messing up any attempt to get decent numbers and compare.

Edited May 16, 2013 by Chickensevil

[Aetrus]

I don't really feel like the double proc is an exploit in PvP. I've had a Conq and Partisan relic since I hit 55, on 3 of my 55s. I guess if you're just standing there blasting away on a PvE boss for 3-5 minutes straight I can see how it'd give you an advantage though. Then again, all it takes to even out that advantage is PvPing a little to grab a Conqueror relic for yourself.

[Individual]

How ever you guys wanna look at it, we're plain and simply not worth taking in operations anymore over all the other DPS classes with the exception of a sin. At least an assassin can still hit for ever 7k though in warzones. We've got no more burst, and no more sustainability like we use to. Furthermore, we can't offer anything to the group such as a buff or debuff.. This class is hating life now for DPS and that's all there is to it.

[Chickensevil]

I don't really feel like the double proc is an exploit in PvP. I've had a Conq and Partisan relic since I hit 55, on 3 of my 55s. I guess if you're just standing there blasting away on a PvE boss for 3-5 minutes straight I can see how it'd give you an advantage though. Then again, all it takes to even out that advantage is PvPing a little to grab a Conqueror relic for yourself.

 

No you are missing the part where they are DOUBLE proc'ing each one gaining well over 1200 power in the processes. We can only hope to get 600 or so. While it is significant that is only half the power they can archive. Given current gear levels you are looking at gain more than double the amount of power you can stack on your character with a stat that has NO diminishing returns.

 

I would also argue it is far more effective during PvP since you burst down a target and many times have a little downtime in between, so when you start up the next skirmish the internal CD would be up again. It is NOT hard to make them process at all. The only negative is it is not on-demand and a little RNG based, but no worse than Crit is. Before crit was worthless people would reasonably stack crit because you could expect a decent number of crits in a fight, these relics are the same way.

[Brunner_Venda]

No you are missing the part where they are DOUBLE proc'ing each one gaining well over 1200 power in the processes. We can only hope to get 600 or so. While it is significant that is only half the power they can archive. Given current gear levels you are looking at gain more than double the amount of power you can stack on your character with a stat that has NO diminishing returns.

 

 

The relic is actually 410 power and 435 power for the conq one.

 

If you double proc both, you actually get a full 1690 for six seconds.

 

While that sounds terribad, it's actually only 388 extra damage right? (1690 * .23). On a crit with 70% surge, that's what, 661 damage?

 

Assuming you crit every time, and double proc both of them three times in a minute (20 second CD), then it's worth 200 DPS tops.

 

661 damage * 6 seconds * 3 procs / 60 seconds = 198 DPS.

 

Problem is , you won't crit every shot. You can't attack every second with GCD. You will never double proc both trinkets every 20 seconds three times in one minute exactly, you might only get two. So it's probably worth, what, a third of that on average (66 DPS)?

 

Check my math please, I don't think this is a huge deal.

Edited May 16, 2013 by Brunner_Venda

[Sardonyyx]

The relic is actually 410 power and 435 power for the conq one.

 

If you double proc both, you actually get a full 1690 for six seconds.

 

While that sounds terribad, it's actually only 388 extra damage right? (1690 * .23). On a crit with 70% surge, that's what, 661 damage?

 

Assuming you crit every time, and double proc both of them three times in a minute (20 second CD), then it's worth 200 DPS tops.

 

661 damage * 6 seconds * 3 procs / 60 seconds = 198 DPS.

 

Problem is , you won't crit every shot. You can't attack every second with GCD. You will never double proc both trinkets every 20 seconds three times in one minute exactly, you might only get two. So it's probably worth, what, a third of that on average (66 DPS)?

 

Check my math please, I don't think this is a huge deal.

 

 

 

/ highfive

 

 

Maybe Hizoka will finally understand and **** about this. Ooh that would make me so happy.

[Chickensevil]

I still get the feeling that there must be more to this picture that we are missing, only because there are differences between theoretical numbers and actual. But, if your numbers do indeed add up then I guess I would have to completely concede that at least on the top end, we are not even close to where some of the other classes are able to hit.

 

So with that being said, I think they would definately need to give a boost to our class again to put us back in line... I know it had been said before they could easily revert just one of the three major changes to our class and it would likely put us at right about a decent place, especially in regard to burst damage which is what is killing us in PVP. They are gonna have to do something, because what it seems like from the other threads about RWZs there just isn't ANY reason to bring a PT to a WZ to the point where it is hurting your bottom line if you do choose to bring someone.

[Chickensevil]

/ highfive

 

 

Maybe Hizoka will finally understand and **** about this. Ooh that would make me so happy.

 

Unfortunately every time I or anyone else has asked him to back up the things he says with... you know... real information, instead of poping in to say one line like "Everyone knows AP is really awesome right now" or similar... I have never seen a decent response... which is why I stopped trying...