Scrapper/Concealment PvP Ideas

[Cryowolf]

Long read ahead, you've been warned. So, it might be a little early into the patch to suggest buff ideas, but the early bird gets the worm!

 

From pvping with a Concealment Operative for 6 months and now a Scrapper Scoundrel for the last 2 months, I've been frustrated by some glaring weaknesses which are also well known to our community already, mainly:

 

 

1. Susceptibility to AoE Damage. As the squishiest of the melee ACs (and possibly all of the ACs) it makes no sense that we don't have some type of AoE protection for ourselves. It's not just smashes eating us up, it all hurts!
    
   
2. Magnitude of imbalance in the Deception/Infiltration matchup. If you have fought a good one you already know, this fight is a nightmare. I crush my share of new shadows and assassins, but I instantly know when I am up against a good one because I am dead in about 7.5 seconds and left SMH. Since we are intended to cap solo nodes and they are apparently intended to defend solo nodes this matchup needs to be way closer than it is right now.
    
   
3. Reliance on a successful opening burst sequence. You have all felt that moment of pain and anguish when you are popped from stealth early by a random AoE, many of which are standard skills in dps rotations. No Hidden Strike/Shoot First for you! We have received some nice sustained damage buffs, but don't let them draw you away from the truth. We are an opening burst based class.
    
   
4. Burst class that has lost a good portion of its burst. The crit nerf hurt nearly all the ACs to some degree, but ours is one of the hardest hit. Before 2.0 we were reliant on high crit from gear (35% or so), Element of Surprise/Concealed Attacks, and the old 2 piece PvE set bonus. With the nerf to crit and the removal of the PvE set bonus we lost 10% crit on our opener and 25% (ouch!) crit on Back Blast/Backstab.
   

 

My suggestions are to make a few changes to the skill tree. I am *not* suggesting all these changes to be made together, but merely providing some options to fix some of our problems.

 

To alleviate the issues of #1 and #2 I offer up a rework of Surprise Comeback/Revitalizers, a skill that has been turned lackluster in 2.0. Keep it a two point skill and drop the poor healing addition to Pugnacity, instead rename the skill to Swagger/Arrogance and make it so that:

 

 

"After firing Quick Shot/Overload Shot the player gains the Swagger/Arrogance buff reducing the damage of the next two direct damaging melee/force attacks by 30%. Increases the damage by (10/20%) and reduces the energy cost by (4/7), but initiates a 10 second cooldown after use."

 

An alternative suggestion (from comments below) to help with our AoE problem is that damage completely absorbed by Shield Probe/Defense Screen will not break stealth.

 

 

To alleviate #3 I suggest that K.O./Jarring Strike be modified to include:

 

 

"Shoot First/Hidden Strike has a (50/100%) chance to knock a target flat on its face for 1.5 seconds. Also if the player is removed from stealth by AoE damage, Shoot First/Hidden Strike is usable for the next 3 seconds regardless of stealth.

 

 

 

Finally, to alleviate #4, I suggest that Element of Surprise/Concealed Attacks be changed so that:

 

 

"Increases the critical hit chance of Shoot First/Hidden Strike and Back Blast/Backstab (10/20%)."

 

 

Let me know what you think.

Edited April 23, 2013 by Cryowolf

[Gondolindhrim]

<snip>

To alleviate #3 I suggest that K.O./Jarring Strike be modified to include:

 

"Shoot First/Hidden Strike has a (50/100%) chance to knock a target flat on its face for 1.5 seconds. Also if the player is removed from stealth by damage, Shoot First/Hidden Strike is usable for the next 3 seconds regardless of stealth.

I have thought of this too, would definitely be one of the biggest QoL upgrades we could get.

[Syberduh]

Knocked out of stealth by AOE damage, maybe. If an op gets shot out of stealth by single target damage then he deserves to not have an opener.

 

I'd like it better if damage that is completely absorbed by shield probe/defense screen didn't break stealth.

[Wainamoinen]

If you have your defence screen up and it absorbs all damage, then no stealth break should be fine.

 

Would agree that we're probably the AC most vulnerable to random aoe. Dropping aoe to bust stealthers is a legitimate tactic though, shouldn't be able to void it just because it's so annoying to us. Let us have the counter of having our pathetic bubble.

 

I'm with you on the crit chance problems. Would make it the same bonus to HS and BB though. 10/20 would be great - as it would be a mandatory talent, all scrappers/conc ops woudl be taking it, so their default crit chance would be substantially higher than other people's on these big hitters, any more and we're talking OP.

Edited April 23, 2013 by Wainamoinen

[Cryowolf]

Thanks for the replies folks!

 

Knocked out of stealth by AOE damage, maybe. If an op gets shot out of stealth by single target damage then he deserves to not have an opener.

 

I'd like it better if damage that is completely absorbed by shield probe/defense screen didn't break stealth.

 

Good point about AoE damage vs single target, I edited the original post to include this change. The damage absorb to protect stealth would be amazing, as well. I use Shield Probe/Defense Screen as often as I can because every little bit helps, but one of the only solid uses I have for it is in Huttball when I know I am going to take an unavoidable tick of fire damage in order to stay on an objective.

 

If anyone has other favorite uses for this skill, please share!

 

If you have your defense screen up and it absorbs all damage, then no stealth break should be fine.

 

Would agree that we're probably the AC most vulnerable to random aoe. Dropping aoe to bust stealthers is a legitimate tactic though, shouldn't be able to void it just because it's so annoying to us. Let us have the counter of having our pathetic bubble.

 

I'm with you on the crit chance problems. Would make it the same bonus to HS and BB though. 10/20 would be great - as it would be a mandatory talent, all scrappers/conc ops woudl be taking it, so their default crit chance would be substantially higher than other people's on these big hitters, any more and we're talking OP.

 

I agree with you and Syberduh on Shield Probe/Defense Screen so I added that as an alternative option to my K.O./Jarring Strike change. I just feel that depriving us of our access to Shoot First/Hidden Strike is too hard of a counter.

 

With the crit chance suggestion I made I was basing it off of our 1.7 crit chances and suggesting to bring us back to that level. I guess that since BW nerfed (almost) everyone's crit it would be considered OP to return us to our old stats, but not everyone else. I'll edit the original post to reflect the 10/20, but I think that is on the low end of what would help us.

[randiesel]

We are meant to be a 1v1 class, essentially, not a Jack-of-all-trades. Given that, I don't think you'll see any changes to scrapper/concealment vs shadow/sin any time soon. It is what it is and infil/decep hits harder and has more reliable crits than scrappers/conceals have. Every class has a counter class (a class who is their direct superior) and I would call shadows/sins just that. Actually, having played a shadow I would say it'd be more beneficial for all scrappers to reroll, even with 2.0 making us more useful.

 

Given that, I like one thing you presented but disagree with another:

 

AoE dmg taking us out of stealth prematurely an not allowing us our opener. That is always bad for use, but hurts us the most when going to 1v1 someone, especially to take a node.when someone knows we are there and purposely uses aoe to unstealth us, that leaves us vulnerable as now they are going to attack us for sure. However, hen the aoe is done around us and were sneaking up to someone in a crowd, this doesn't hurt us as much since our target is likely preoccupied attacking or healing someone else and won't notice us right away. I like the "give us 3 secs to use HS out of stealth" suggestion, but its hard to justify because it only would help is be more deadly 1v1 and its already easy enough to kill just about any class 1v1.

 

I disagree with the more damage needed thing. Once you gear up, your HS should be hitting over 7k and BS should be hitting over 6-6.5k. Lacerate will now probably crit for 4-5k as well (seen it that high on the wz dummy) an that right there is 19k damage. Explosive probe brought into the mix had crit upward of 6k routinely for me and that brings it to 25k+ damage dispensed on a stun locked target. Sure, were not hitting for 9-10k crits like other classes, but we have back to back crits that strung together are better than others (minus sins and probably carnage marauders).

 

I do agree we need more survivability all around. Increase our dodge chance (which is a measly 7% as conceal) and give us an30% aoe damage reduction then were on equal ground, I say.

[Cryowolf]

@ Randiesel

 

Thank you for the feedback. I have read many of your posts so I know you are also disappointed (like most of us) with our current standing in the pvp scene in general. I do agree completely that we need a counter class, but I think that what hurts us here is that our superior happens to be the very class we directly compete with to perform our intended WZ roles of node capper/ defender and ranged/healer killer/harasser. Do they need to be superior to us in every aspect, or just able to defeat us in a 1v1? I would be fine with them killing me in 1v1s over nodes as a superior node capper/ defender if I knew that I was the preferred class for the ranged/healer killer/harasser role. Or something along that line of thinking, ya know?

 

As far as rerolling to shadow/sin I do have a 50 sin and it was fun until I leveled my operative. The sin has been shelved ever since. Even under performing vs the sin I just enjoyed the game play/aesthetics of the operative so much more. Loved it enough to level the mirror scoundrel and I am enjoying it just as much. I am doomed, heh.

 

I also agree with you that my proposed 3 sec of out of stealth opener would increase our 1v1 superiority vs most classes even more so I am open to suggestions on how to feasibly give us SF/HS access in some other form. Perhaps a skill that adds a cooldown to Quick Shot/Overload Shot and gives us a small out of stealth window for a SF/HS, but without the knockdown effect being applied? Our strongest move does not get near enough use in normal circumstances.

 

I didn't really mean for us to do more damage in that respect, I am fine with the size of our crits. I just feel we need more reliable crits due to our crap survivability. No crits means a dead scoundrel/operative vs any competent player and the odds of all of the abilities you mentioned all critting are low.

 

I really like your dodge increase suggestion. Adding that as a class baseline would probably be too much for our healing counterparts. Perhaps adding a 15-20% dodge buff after Quick Shot/Overload Shot? If you hadn't noticed I really think that Quick Shot/Overload Shot needs some loving, too.

[randiesel]

Damn, just typed out a reply on my iPad, Chrome quit unexpectedly and lost my content, lol

 

Anyhow, thanks and I like your suggestions as well. Just always try to see from a non-scrapper's perspective and feel that other classes would call for more nerfs if we were made any more deadly than we already are 1v1. BW is quick as hell to put us back in our place, as history would prove.

 

Also didn't know I was talking to a fellow Sin =P. I actually play both my scoundrel and my shadow as my "main", even if it doesn't follow the mindset that one can only have a single main. I feel that both compliment each other very well. For where my scoundrel is weak, my shadow is strong, and vice versa. Obviously shadows/sins outperform DPS scoundrels in nearly every way, which is sad and makes me a little angry at how much better they are kind of like yourself. But in the end scoundrels are just more fun, especially with Scamper, and you're going to play what you love more (hopefully).

 

I still feel regardless that scoundrels should reroll shadow if you are serious about dps (heals or ppl who spec dps and heals sometimes obviously should only be a scoundrel). Shadows seriously do outperform on every level.

 

Highest #s I've gotten so far at 55:

 

Scoundrel

7500 Shoot First

6800 Backblast

4700 Sucker Punch

 

Shadow

9900 Shadow Strike (Maul)

8400 Force Breach (Discharge)

7100 Spinning Strike (Assassinate)

Not sure on Project (Shock), haven't kept too close an eye, but I know I've hit over 5k on it

 

Given the above, and how shadows can drop Force Potency's cooldown by 60 seconds when exiting combat, there is no way for a scrapper to compete on the same level as an infil shadow. I get 9k SSs a night on my shadow, can use the same move 2x in a row with Low Slash, and +60% crit chance with Force Potency up is basically an autocrit. Plus, forget the ability name, but we get 9% crit chance to melee attacks when force attacks crit.

 

Scoundrels still dish out really good numbers, and when we are not focused down I would say we are just as deadly as the above, just you don't see as high numbers because they come faster with lower crit numbers. Survivability is the name of that game and a shadow will win out if we are focused.

 

Play both though. And do yourself a favor and make a shadow if you only have your sin. Shadows are way more fun (IMO) as shocks/etc get old quickly.

[Cryowolf]

Yeah, the lightning effects got old for me quickly, so maybe the shadow spell effects will be more engaging for me. That and BH are the only class stories I haven't finished, as well, haha.

 

Will give me something to do when I need some time off the Scoundrel for the frustration of a bad streak of games to subside.

Edited April 23, 2013 by Cryowolf

[Coldin]

Knocked out of stealth by AOE damage, maybe. If an op gets shot out of stealth by single target damage then he deserves to not have an opener.

 

I'd like it better if damage that is completely absorbed by shield probe/defense screen didn't break stealth.

 

I could agree with you if it wasn't so freaking hard to get into position sometimes. I hate some of these matches where the opponent is just running around and jumping in circles, making it very difficult to get in position. Worse still, that makes it very easy for them to see us.

 

 

I'd really like to see Shield Probe become more useful. The damage it absorbs is just so small. I'd much rather see it changed into a simple damage reduction skill like so many other classes have.

 

Another interesting change might be if a skill made it so AOEs could not break us out of stealth, and we take 30% less damage from AOEs while in stealth. That would let us approach a target even in a chaotic match up, and only have to worry about damage from single-target sources.

 

I'd also love to see Surprise Comeback be retooled. Frankly, it's just worthless as it is now. I would still prefer it to be a heal though, as we don't have a very good way of healing in combat despite that being our secondary role. It could be reworked to restore a % of morale whenever we gain an Upper Hand. Or tie it to Round Two, and let it restore extra health whenever Flying Fists procs.

 

Though really, the original reason I liked Surprise Comeback so much was it restoring health while in Stealth. Snipers have an ability to regain health while in cover, perhaps this ability to could be changed to restore 1-2% of health every second while in stealth, with maybe a larger % of health restored whenever the scoundrel leaves stealth. It wouldn't be a big advantage when catching an opponent unaware, but it would give some extra tactical advantage to using Vanish in the middle of a fight. Just some idle thoughts.

Edited April 24, 2013 by Coldin

[Milchmann]

Princess : "It could be worse"

Scoundrel: "It's worse"

[randiesel]

*removed* Edited April 30, 2013 by randiesel

[Coldin]

After some time at 55 warzones, I can say it's better...but obviously not great. We're still lacking some damage, and the crit rating change has hurt significantly. Basically 10% less chance to crit than we used to have. And sadly, our survivability has stayed mostly the same. Sure, we can roll around to get out of danger, but it's only so effective.

 

I still hate how easily we're spotted in stealth. And the difficulty of healing in a fight, despite that being our secondary role.

 

Mostly though, I think we just need to see some reduction in the damage other classes are dealing, rather than any real increase to ours. (Well, maybe boost Sucker Punch a bit. I still want Underdog to give that a crit bonus)

[randiesel]

*removed* Edited April 30, 2013 by randiesel

[pqgarvis]

I forgot I add shadow/sin on my previous ranting post.

 

And Coldin, I also agree that just because we can heal doesn't mean we're able to do so efficiently enough to keep ourselves alive. Actually, look at commandos. They can dps and heal right in the thick of it without having to run around a corner to heal. We need to roll away just to evade the onslaught and by the time were out of sight we likely have no energy left to heal ourselves up. Usually someone will come after us and finish us off at this point.

 

It's actually sad is what it is. Pathetic even.

 

Come on Crackshot, I understand how it feels in the food chain at times, but Scrapper is still fun. Can we dps with the rest of them, sometimes but we have to work twice as hard as some classes to pull out those numbers. I am only posting because I know you and you're a good player, yet your messages sound very down. Keep up the fight

 

Imposed

[randiesel]

*removed* Edited April 30, 2013 by randiesel

[pqgarvis]

You know what is funny, I have a sniper alt (level 38) and I am almost 100% of the time top dps (no bragging here its just that easy...4 button rotation). I hadn't played the class in probably about a year (hence the low level) and just wow are they easy mode! I had a couple matches over 1300 dps and the rest being 800-1000 dps (Obviously numbers I can't and/or rarely reach on scrapper spec).

 

I've only played him for a few hours, and it's pre-55 but I was in shock at how no one hardly ever focused me. I literally was laughing out loud it was so comical at how easy the class is (Power Tech pre 2.0 +25 meters easy).

 

I look at it like this, the people playing snipers/gun slingers didn't get more skilled with 2.0 they just got easier. Our class minus our ability to run away with scamper require the same skill (possibly more since we now have to think about energy use with scampering away which for the love of god I do to much now).

 

When I get tagged with, "Death Sentence" (Electro-Net) I cry inside and think, "mmm....do I move and take all the extra damage or just stand there?"

[randiesel]

*removed* Edited April 30, 2013 by randiesel

[Coldin]

Giving Snipers that Stealth detection was a bad call as far as class balance goes. If they were going to get that ability, it should have been a chosen skill in one of the trees (Engineering perhaps). Giving it to all of them for free is awful, considering stealth classes only get about +2-4 stealth detection and they have to spec into it.

 

 

I'm really liking the idea that high in the Scrapper tree, we could get the ability to keep Shoot First usable within the first few seconds of being knocked out of stealth. It would really help negate that feeling of losing so much burst because we got spotted. Afterall, Assassins aren't giving up much burst if they get knocked out of stealth early.

[randiesel]

Sorry for my ranting. Old saying goes "when life gives you lemons, make lemonade". Corny as that is, I've reevaluated and found a different spec that works for added survivability. Change happens all around us, adapting to it is sometimes difficult.

[pqgarvis]

Let me guess, 23/0/23? or something close to that

[Cryowolf]

Sorry for my ranting. Old saying goes "when life gives you lemons, make lemonade". Corny as that is, I've reevaluated and found a different spec that works for added survivability. Change happens all around us, adapting to it is sometimes difficult.

 

Mind sharing your new spec? I've been running http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#701Mc0MZGbzrdrkrhGRZh.3 for the last couple months on my operative and now on my scoundrel (with the new talents included now), as well. Got the idea from Miyke's scrapper handbook. I've had great success with survivability, but then I am not a "toe to toe" fighter and prefer to maximize usage of stopping power, LOS, and now scamper, haha. I run around 10 WZ's a day and rarely die more than once and have multiple 0 death games. I don't top damage, but I never did nor care to. I stick to objectives which I think our toolset is very strong for. Not on par with the sin (as you know, damn them!), but still enjoyable to me and I feel useful and relevant to the matches outcome.

 

*Disclaimer* I am just now entering the 55 scene so this is all subject to change, so take that with a grain of salt. However, I did have great success with this spec back at 50 as a min/maxed (for power) Operative. I'll report back after I get some min/max action under my belt. I understand that 55 is going to be a rough time, at first. If that happens, I'll be looking for recipes for lemonade.

[randiesel]

No. Hesitant to post anything online about it, seeing as how "loved" we are by BW it'd probably get changed 5 minutes after I post it. Plus, everyone needs to find out what works best for them personally, so it might not be attractive to anyone but myself.

 

Hit me up in game later tonight if you're on and I'll go over it in vent with you.

[randiesel]

Cryo, sorry buddy. My reply was to Imposed an then I saw your post, but got a call for work and couldn't get Internet on my iPhone at the same time to reply, lol.

 

Hit me up on JC an I'll go over it with you as we'll. I play mainly for objectives as well, but big number games have been more so the norm recently, so it's natural to stay out of stealth and do a lot of damage.

 

One thing about the spec though, it may not even be necessary for you to use it. I have a conceal op on POT5 and never get focused at all, so my survivability and damage potential are through the roof. Probably because I rarely play there, and I'm only 53 at the moment, but if you don get focused you're able to unload.

Edited April 30, 2013 by randiesel

[Coldin]

Meh. It's always easy to deal good damage and feel tough when you aren't getting focused.

 

I'm guessing it's probably a half sawbones, half scrapper spec. You get the heals over time, and the ability to generate extra TAs. And then you get the Sucker Punch to dish out damage. Of course, you'd lose a lot on the alpha damage, but should be able to live longer that it's not doesn't matter.