Stop comparing Vitiate to Palpatine...

[LadyKulvax]

I was referring to Yoda.

 

Sidious clearly beats Yoda, it is canon, read the ROTS novelization, it clears up a lot of stuff left to interpretation in the films.

[Beniboybling]

His physical body is dead, though the lead writer states just because that body died does not mean he has died. That and he stated that the Emperor probably took that defeat very badly.

Well what I gathered is that Hood is telling us that the being the HoT struck down was the real Emperor, not a voice as the Hands lead us to believe.

 

But yes, much like Sidious it would seem he still exists in spirit. What that entails for his future I cannot say. But he did seem confident that he could recover from bodily death.

[Beniboybling]

It should be noted that The Emperor actually "dies" TWICE in the game.

 

In addition to his defeat on Dromund Kaas at the end of the Jedi Knight story, he also was killed earlier on Voss, by the Emperor's Wrath (aka the Sith Warrior).

 

 

For whatever reason, his defeat on Dromund Kaas was a lot more devastating though. My best guess is that the Voice killed there was the last one currently available, and thus he had to go back to his original body. And then he apparently fell into a coma, or something. The details are weird. I'm not sure exactly what the real case is. Or if he did go back to his old body or is simply living with no body at all.

 

What I do know is that the Emperor is definitely still alive. And he probably will return one day.

I don't know if you caught my link, but the most logical explanation is that the Voice died on Voss, and the real body died on Dromund Kaas. Hence the disparity. Heck I may as well take this oppurtuinity to post my full theory on the matter. But yeah, regardless of whatever happened. The Emperor is still alive in some form, and will probably return.

[Beniboybling]

really? That's you issue? Well ok then...

 

I actually never read the RotS novelization but Beni, Aurbere, or anyone who did could tell you the outcome of that. All I know is what is in the movie, and that appears to be an unarmed, defeated Yoda fleeing at the end... It can't be disputed that at the end of that one Sidious was the clear victor even if he didn't kill Yoda.

I'd speculate that Yoda was close if not superior to Sidious in that final duel, but fate would have it that Yoda must lose. However I'm not entirely sure on that one. However Sidious' attack's weren't working.

 

Regardless, if the combined strength of Revan, Meetra and Scourge is enough to bring down the Emperor. Then Yoda would most certainly defeat him in single combat, no doubt about it.

[Aurbere]

In regards to Yoda vs. Sidious, I'm going to stick with what Leland Chee said. Yoda held his own, but Sidious eventually bested him.

[Beniboybling]

In regards to Yoda vs. Sidious, I'm going to stick with what Leland Chee said. Yoda held his own, but Sidious eventually bested him.

Well that is true, from a certain point of view...

[Aurbere]

Well that is true, from a certain point of view...

 

From Leland Chee's point of view.

[Beniboybling]

From Leland Chee's point of view.

What exactly did Leland Chee say?

[Aurbere]

Tell me of one. Prove you are right.

 

Only one? But there are several. I'll save us both time by just pointing them all out.

 

 

That is because these sources date back to before the swtor lore took off.

 

Yet they are still canon. SWTOR does not conflict with these sources.

 

Vitiate vaporized everything on an entire planet. He stripped the force itself away

 

Yeah, except he needed a ritual to do so. While impressive he needed a ton of help.

 

could instantly dominate the mind of any being in the galaxy (with the exception of you-know-who).

 

There were those who resisted. Also, Sidious has displayed such an ability as well.

 

Sideous couldn't even defeat a single opponent.

 

Really?

 

Yoda, Kit Fisto, Saesee Tiin, Agen Kolar, Kit Fisto, Luke Skywalker.

 

And not to mention ravaging Coruscant, destroying a New Republic Fleet, and destroying a nigh indestructible Super Star Destroyer with Force Storms.

 

He 1shot the entire dark council.

 

Sidious destroyed an entire legion of Stormtroopers with his Force lightning, whilst showing the mastery over it to defend his Guardsmen.

 

Your pre-swtor quotes are nothing in the face of the direct lore.

 

And yet these sources are still canon. If you wish to debate their canonicity, ask Leland Chee.

[Aurbere]

What exactly did Leland Chee say?

 

Courtesy of Rhyltran:

 

"Inside the spacious interior of the Galactic Senate chambers, Yoda challenged the Emperor. The two entered into a spectacular duel -- a contest between the most powerful practitioners of the Force's light and dark sides. The Emperor proved too powerful to defeat. Though Yoda held his own for much of the duel, in the end, the Sith bested him. He realized that directly confronting the Sith would be doomed to failure. Defeated, Yoda slinked away into the shadows of the Senate chamber's cavernous depths, leaping into a waiting getaway speeder piloted by Bail Organa."

[Beniboybling]

Courtesy of Rhyltran:

 

"Inside the spacious interior of the Galactic Senate chambers, Yoda challenged the Emperor. The two entered into a spectacular duel -- a contest between the most powerful practitioners of the Force's light and dark sides. The Emperor proved too powerful to defeat. Though Yoda held his own for much of the duel, in the end, the Sith bested him. He realized that directly confronting the Sith would be doomed to failure. Defeated, Yoda slinked away into the shadows of the Senate chamber's cavernous depths, leaping into a waiting getaway speeder piloted by Bail Organa."

Well, its not really anything I didn't expect. The fact that Sidious bested Yoda is plain for all to see, nobody disputes that. But was Sidious stronger than Yoda? That is questionable to say the least.

[Aurbere]

Well, its not really anything I didn't expect. The fact that Sidious bested Yoda is plain for all to see, nobody disputes that. But was Sidious stronger than Yoda? That is questionable to say the least.

 

Well, the Revenge of the Sith novel seems to indicate that Yoda was pushed to his limits, and that the final engagement between the two was when Yoda realized that he could not kill Sidious. He almost literally said that his only option was to live to fight another day.

[Beniboybling]

Well, the Revenge of the Sith novel seems to indicate that Yoda was pushed to his limits, and that the final engagement between the two was when Yoda realized that he could not kill Sidious. He almost literally said that his only option was to live to fight another day.

Of course, but then we have to consider that:

 

1. Sidious gained and retained the high ground, effectively ending the duel.

 

2. Yoda tired himself out with Ataru.

 

3. Being slightly more powerful does not necessarily ensure victory, but often comes down to chance.

 

The way I see it, Yoda was equal or greater in power than Sidious. Hence why the latter tried to flee. Yoda was only defeated because the repulse just so happened to send him falling while Sidious clung on.* As a venerable Ataru specialist with a massive height disadvantage, that fall practically lost the duel for Yoda. Any attempt to regain lost ground would have led to Sidious slapping him back down, and in the event that he did Yoda would be too exhausted to continue and win the fight. Simply put Sidious gained a strategic victory, but nothing more.

 

*the will of the Force perhaps? i.e preserving the Chosen One? Its fun to speculate.

Edited September 17, 2013 by Beniboybling

[Aurbere]

Hmm... Interesting points.

[Beniboybling]

Hmm... Interesting points.

I'm full of them *points to bag* want more?

[Aurbere]

I'm full of them *points to bag* want more?

 

Pun intended?

[Beniboybling]

Pun intended?

No, just an added bonus.

[Wolfninjajedi]

To clear up the Sidious vs Yoda thing...

 

In that lightning-speared tornado of feet and fists and blades and bashing machines, his vision finally pierced the darkness that had clouded the Force. Finally, he saw the truth.

This truth: that he, the avatar of light, Supreme Master of the Jedi Order, the fiercest, most implacable, most devastatingly powerful foe the darkness had ever known...

just—

didn't—

have it.

He'd never had it. He had lost before he started. He had lost before he was born. The Sith had changed. The Sith had grown, had adapted, had invested a thousand years' intensive study into every aspect of not only the Force but Jedi lore itself, in preparation for exactly this day. The Sith had remade themselves. They had become new.

 

He knew, at that instant, that this insight held the hope of the galaxy. But if he fell here, that hope would die with him. Hmmm, Yoda thought. A problem this is...

 

- From the ROTS novel.

 

The Emperor proved too powerful to defeat. Although Yoda held his own for much of the duel, in the end the Sith bested him.

 

- From the Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia.

 

So he wasn't gonna be able to beat Sidious.

Edited September 17, 2013 by Wolfninjajedi

[rashencyberspeed]

I don't know if you caught my link, but the most logical explanation is that the Voice died on Voss, and the real body died on Dromund Kaas. Hence the disparity. Heck I may as well take this oppurtuinity to post my full theory on the matter. But yeah, regardless of whatever happened. The Emperor is still alive in some form, and will probably return.

 

Actually, the idea that the Emperor's real body was the one on Dromund Kaas doesn't make a whole lot of sense. I read on Wookieepedia that the Emperor is a SIth Pureblood. (And following the citation listed, it apparently was stated somewhere in the Revan novel.) However, the person the Knight Struck down was not a Sith Pureblood. It was a human.

 

But in any case, this a completely different debate from the one this thread is about. So I'll leave it alone now.

 

As for what I think of the main topic... I have no idea who's better. I think both Sidious and Vitiate have enough great feats to them that it's perfectly understandable why either would be considered the greatest Sith of all time. And I think both sides make are making good arguments. I somewhat dislike the mention of Force Storm, as that is part of the "Post-RotJ" era. (Which I don't like much. Mainly because it feels like they make the "chosen one" prophecy completely meaningless, since the Sith keep showing up.) But I accept it's technically a valid point. Though I get the impression that a few of you might be forgetting that Force Storms can be devastating to it's users when handled improperly. (Yes, Palpatine claimed he later became able to control them completely, but don't forget he's well-known for overconfidence.) In fact, losing control of one got Palpatine killed. Until he found another clone body to use.

 

But anyhow, I know admittedly little about the EU lore, and only have Wookieepedia to work off, so I'm probably not the best judge of who's better. So this is probably the last I'll say on the matter.

[XSUPREMESKILLZX]

Sidious blitzes vitiate as fast as he did agen kolar;)

[Beniboybling]

Actually, the idea that the Emperor's real body was the one on Dromund Kaas doesn't make a whole lot of sense. I read on Wookieepedia that the Emperor is a SIth Pureblood. (And following the citation listed, it apparently was stated somewhere in the Revan novel.) However, the person the Knight Struck down was not a Sith Pureblood. It was a human.

 

But in any case, this a completely different debate from the one this thread is about. So I'll leave it alone now.

 

As for what I think of the main topic... I have no idea who's better. I think both Sidious and Vitiate have enough great feats to them that it's perfectly understandable why either would be considered the greatest Sith of all time. And I think both sides make are making good arguments. I somewhat dislike the mention of Force Storm, as that is part of the "Post-RotJ" era. (Which I don't like much. Mainly because it feels like they make the "chosen one" prophecy completely meaningless, since the Sith keep showing up.) But I accept it's technically a valid point. Though I get the impression that a few of you might be forgetting that Force Storms can be devastating to it's users when handled improperly. (Yes, Palpatine claimed he later became able to control them completely, but don't forget he's well-known for overconfidence.) In fact, losing control of one got Palpatine killed. Until he found another clone body to use.

 

But anyhow, I know admittedly little about the EU lore, and only have Wookieepedia to work off, so I'm probably not the best judge of who's better. So this is probably the last I'll say on the matter.

I don't know if you actually read my theory in its entirety, but I suggest you do. I addressed that point. To put it plainly Hood implies that this is not the first time his body has died, if that is the case then he has long since discarded his original form. Hence why he is not a Sith pureblood.

 

But yeah, I also dislike Palpatine's return. But the Force storm remains within his power. He may not have been able to control it fully, but being able to control it at all is an amazing feat in itself.

[Wolfninjajedi]

I don't know if you actually read my theory in its entirety, but I suggest you do. I addressed that point. To put it plainly Hood implies that this is not the first time his body has died, if that is the case then he has long since discarded his original form. Hence why he is not a Sith pureblood.

 

But yeah, I also dislike Palpatine's return. But the Force storm remains within his power. He may not have been able to control it fully, but being able to control it at all is an amazing feat in itself.

 

He was able to control his Force Storms, it wasn't until his power was cut that he lost control of the one and it destroyed the Eclipse 2.

 

Anyway...let's end this thread, no matter which way you slice it Palpatine is the most powerful Sith Lord. Take away Dark Empire? Fine, but he is still the most powerful.

Edited September 18, 2013 by Wolfninjajedi

[Beniboybling]

He was able to control his Force Storms, it wasn't until his power was cut that he lost control of the one and it destroyed the Eclipse 2.

 

Anyway...let's end this thread, no matter which way you slice it Palpatine is the most powerful Sith Lord. Take away Dark Empire? Fine, but he is still the most powerful.

Ah yes I had forgotten about that.

 

But yeah, there is nothing to be discussed here.

[rashencyberspeed]

I don't know if you actually read my theory in its entirety, but I suggest you do. I addressed that point. To put it plainly Hood implies that this is not the first time his body has died, if that is the case then he has long since discarded his original form. Hence why he is not a Sith pureblood.

 

But yeah, I also dislike Palpatine's return. But the Force storm remains within his power. He may not have been able to control it fully, but being able to control it at all is an amazing feat in itself.

 

The thing is, I get the feeling that the Emperor's Voices are his "bodies" that Hood is referring too. The Emperor's Voice and the Emperor himself are one and the same, after all. (The voices contain the Emperor's power, memories, basically everything the original Emperor has other than appearance.) And there probably have been plenty of Voices other than what we see in this game. Who eventually died and were replaced, or were meaningless because he had a spare body to use as a voice. Of course, I don't work for BioWare, so I don't know for sure. This is simply how I'm choosing to interpret it until further notice. Of course, in any case, it's not like it matters. Doesn't change the fact Vitiate's alive in some way or another.

 

On the main subject...

Eh, I still don't know nearly enough to argue.

 

But if anyone's curious, I'll just say I like Vitiate more. Why? I don't really know. For some reason I consider him a cooler and more interesting SIth. Is he more powerful than Sidious? Probably not. Sidious probably is meant to be the most powerful Sith canonically. But I don't think a character has to be powerful for me to like them. So yeah, I like Vitiate more, and don't really care if Palpatine is supposed to be the more powerful Sith. (To be honest, when I look at SWTOR stuff, I find myself mostly ignoring the Star Wars canon as a whole, and just focusing on the story BioWare wants to tell.)

[TACeMossie]

Time for a new perspective:

 

They are equal in power

 

They both achieved the Most Powerful Sith Ever Accolade

They both were immensly powerful

They both required the forces intervention to stop (Sidious through the Chosen One initially, and the Wall of Light in EU, while Vitiate's death was shown to Scourge 3 centuries earliers by the force, causing him to betray Surik and Revan)

They Both achieved feats that were unmatched by any other sith ever.

 

However, if Vitiate had a Death Star, Palpatine wouldn't have been born. Just sayin.

 

Also, Palpatine was destroyed when 1000 years of sith evolution caused the jedi to go into hiding for 19 years, and after ~22 years his empire fell apart again. Meanwhile, Vitiates Empire waged a 30 year war on the republic, and has lasted through a further 10 years of peace before Vitiates first loss ever... And Vitiate will come back. I can guarantee it, because his original body still isn't dead AND Vitiate has mastered essence transfer.

 

It will probably be for the 2nd or 3rd expansion though.