New to PT tanking...how to maximize tanking gear?

[thecoffeeguy]

So, with 2.0 changes, I decided to try out tanking on my PT. I have to say, I absolutely LOVE it. It is a blast to run and I feel like I run through stuff, even though I dont have full tank gear.

 

I am shooting to get the supercommandos gear set. I have the shield right now and bought some armor/mods/enhancements from the Makeb vendor to try and get better gear. As of now, I have tanking items for:

 

-helmet

-gloves

-legs

-boots

-shield

-one implant

 

Definitely want to run some HM FP as a tank.

 

My question is, what should I be trying to stack the most of?

Shield abosrb?

Shield rating?

Defense rating?

 

Right now, I am at about 15% defense change, 33% shield rating and 39% shield absorb.

 

I appreciate the help.

 

Cheers,

 

TCG

[cruciFX]

So, with 2.0 changes, I decided to try out tanking on my PT. I have to say, I absolutely LOVE it. It is a blast to run and I feel like I run through stuff, even though I dont have full tank gear.

 

I am shooting to get the supercommandos gear set. I have the shield right now and bought some armor/mods/enhancements from the Makeb vendor to try and get better gear. As of now, I have tanking items for:

 

-helmet

-gloves

-legs

-boots

-shield

-one implant

 

Definitely want to run some HM FP as a tank.

 

My question is, what should I be trying to stack the most of?

Shield abosrb?

Shield rating?

Defense rating?

 

Right now, I am at about 15% defense change, 33% shield rating and 39% shield absorb.

 

I appreciate the help.

 

Cheers,

 

TCG

 

Well, since our procs are all on shield chance, defense has the least priority. I don't know the new numbers yet, but pre 2.0 it was about 15/50-60/50-60 (at least what i was shooting for).

Supercommando is correct, and the non-set version is demolisher, if i remember correctly.

There is a thread in the roles subforum regarding new stat priorities, you could check that out for more detail.

[Viampa]

If you were min/maxed pre 2.0 just replace what you ahd with equiv new mods/enhancements.. this should give you close to what the new min/max will be.

 

When I get more data from clearing new Ops I will try and post new min/max

[Mc_Gregor]

Here is great analysis what stat ratings you should be aming for:

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=616779

 

To sum it up shortly- in order to get the best possible damage reduction you should stack defense first, then shield then absorption. And absorption only when your defence and shield rating passes 800 and 700. Values like {500,{defense->300,shield->200,absorb->0}} mean with 500 total ratings (defence+shield+absorption) you should have 300 def, 200 shield and 0 abs to reach best possible level of damage reduction for your current gear level.

[Zhaaratustra]

Here is great analysis what stat ratings you should be aming for:

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=616779

 

To sum it up shortly- in order to get the best possible damage reduction you should stack defense first, then shield then absorption. And absorption only when your defence and shield rating passes 800 and 700. Values like {500,{defense->300,shield->200,absorb->0}} mean with 500 total ratings (defence+shield+absorption) you should have 300 def, 200 shield and 0 abs to reach best possible level of damage reduction for your current gear level.

The math is strong in this thread, but as soon as someone tells me I should get defense as a powertech tank I can't stop laughing.

BWs changes to shield+absorb scaling and the used formula doesn't change anything about how a powertech tank should be played which still means that defense is the last value an powertech tank wants. Shield rating without absorb is useless and vice versa, so one wants to get both values as close to eachother as possible.

 

My advice would be get shield as high as possible and make sure absorb isn't that far behind, accept defense only if it isn't avoidable in items like implants or ear pieces

[Mc_Gregor]

The math is strong in this thread, but as soon as someone tells me I should get defense as a powertech tank I can't stop laughing.

BWs changes to shield+absorb scaling and the used formula doesn't change anything about how a powertech tank should be played which still means that defense is the last value an powertech tank wants. Shield rating without absorb is useless and vice versa, so one wants to get both values as close to eachother as possible.

 

My advice would be get shield as high as possible and make sure absorb isn't that far behind, accept defense only if it isn't avoidable in items like implants or ear pieces

 

Well laugh all you want, as defensive formulas stand now, getting defence is the way to minimize your incomming damage and surivie which ultimately is your job. If you lack threat generation, overheat and loose aggro then and only then you should consider reitemizing. And those calculations take into consideration that shield and absorption only work together.

[Zhaaratustra]

Ah and here comes the true believer. I have main tanked 16er HC S+V up to Styrak and TfB to back up my claims.

 

A powertech tank relies on being hit which is supported by our skills and general damage reduction in comparision to sins aand jugger tanks. This haven't magically changed with 2.0, it's still the same.

 

In real world tanking it's exactly the other way around then this thread advices. An powertech tank have to raise shield and absorb first and only if you have reached a good % you can have a look at defense.

 

And by this considarations you mean such numbers {1600,{defense->960,shield->640,absorb->0}}? Of course 0 absorb makes totally sense right.

[thecoffeeguy]

Here is great analysis what stat ratings you should be aming for:

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=616779

 

To sum it up shortly- in order to get the best possible damage reduction you should stack defense first, then shield then absorption. And absorption only when your defence and shield rating passes 800 and 700. Values like {500,{defense->300,shield->200,absorb->0}} mean with 500 total ratings (defence+shield+absorption) you should have 300 def, 200 shield and 0 abs to reach best possible level of damage reduction for your current gear level.

 

Ya, I read that thread and to be honest, it confused me.

I thought all along that shield rating and shield absorb were the most important stats, then defense rating.

I also found this thread in the Vanguard forums:

 

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=624233

 

Short thread, but the point is, shield rating/absorb are what PT's/Vanguards need.

 

As of now, im shooting to get the supercommandos set (which, btw, that should last me up until 55?)

 

Appreciate the feedback here.

 

Cheers,

[ScytheEleven]

The stat goals I am shooting for in my PT tank are 20% defense, 35-40% shield, and 30% absorb.

 

I do not know if those are reachable, but I'm going to try.

[Mc_Gregor]

Ah and here comes the true believer. I have main tanked 16er HC S+V up to Styrak and TfB to back up my claims.

 

A powertech tank relies on being hit which is supported by our skills and general damage reduction in comparision to sins aand jugger tanks. This haven't magically changed with 2.0, it's still the same.

 

In real world tanking it's exactly the other way around then this thread advices. An powertech tank have to raise shield and absorb first and only if you have reached a good % you can have a look at defense.

 

And by this considarations you mean such numbers {1600,{defense->960,shield->640,absorb->0}}? Of course 0 absorb makes totally sense right.

 

Thing is you cant really measure what proportion of incomming damage you are avoiding so your assumption which stats to stack is based on hunch. Whereas in that thread you have hard math to proove what amount of stats will benefit you the most in terms of mitigation. Of course our shield makes our talents tick but as long as you are not loosing aggro because of low dps, overhead or whatnot, then you can stack mitigation stats that dont intuitively fit into our tree. If I notice that my talents dont trigger as much as I want them to then I will switch back a bit. As for now, Im aiming for high defence and shield with low absorption altough not as low as that thread suggests to smooth out a bit incomming damage. But Im aware it wont net the best possible results.

 

And I also know how real life tanking works, Im still gearing my char after the patch so didnt do HM ops yet but I got warstalker on my tank pre-patch so I should catch up pretty soon.

Edited April 16, 2013 by Mc_Gregor

[TheronFett]

The stat goals I am shooting for in my PT tank are 20% defense, 35-40% shield, and 30% absorb.

 

I do not know if those are reachable, but I'm going to try.

 

Reachable, yes...and far beyond. But you've got it wrong.

 

Shield > Absorb > Defense

 

DO NOT put a lot of stock in Defense. Defense avoids incoming damage completely, and while that sounds good on the surface, it is BAD for PT tanks. Defense is for avoidance tanking (Assassins) and to a lesser degree, Juggernauts. Powertechs are mitigation tanks, not avoidance.

 

Key Shieldtech skills rely on shielding an incoming attack, such as the vitally important venting heat. If you're avoiding too much damage, you will overheat too quickly. You want your Shield Chance % to be as close to 50% as you can get it. After that, focus on Absorb % to mitigate incoming damage. Defense should be your last priority. If you've done it correctly, as others here have posted, you should be around:

 

15% Defense

50% Shield

50-60% Absorb

Edited April 16, 2013 by TheronFett

[Marb]

Whats with all the flat earth society tanks.

 

Considering the 6sec lockout for shield vents and heat free flamethrower procs, I can't imagine gearing for maximum survivability will cause you to overheat. The same argument was popular even pre 2.0, with some advising PT tanks not to get a shred of defense if they could avoid it as it devalued shield and caused heat issues. PT's now get 4% defense bonus and NOT the shield bonus we were getting pre 2.0, which means we are getting even more value out of it. Pre 2.0 we didn't receive a single bonus to it from our skill tree, in contrast to the other tank classes.

 

The stat budget we have now has support for a lot more tiers of gear in the future, and absorb will become more valuable at a later stage in itemization. With what we have as maximum stat budget, the returns from absorb are just not as good as defense as it stands currently, and this will change as we have more stat points to play with.

 

I would advise to go with the math and not the observational opinion pieces.

Edited April 17, 2013 by Marb

[Zhaaratustra]

Either one is a believer into this math and is taking the advice to get defense or is basing his item decisions from a practical standpoint.

The math is based on theoretical assumptions that can be true but don't necessarily have to be.

The advices given especially for the early points are definitely wrong, an pt tank haven't changed magically. As the non believer already stated shield > absorb > defense, this might change at some point where you can take the defense.

 

The fact that we get defense now out of our skill tree does not change anything because the skills that are based on shield or push shield and absorb are still there and overhelm the defense push by far.

 

While the math is nice to discuss, I will base my itemisation on my raiding experiences.

Edited April 17, 2013 by Zhaaratustra

[TheronFett]

I would advise to go with the math and not the observational opinion pieces.

 

The math is theorycrafting, nothing more. Just because we got a small defense stat boost doesn't mean that the mechanics of the class has changed. Practical application dictates that shield > absorb > defense for PT tanks. It's that simple.

[Marb]

The math is theorycrafting, nothing more. Just because we got a small defense stat boost doesn't mean that the mechanics of the class has changed. Practical application dictates that shield > absorb > defense for PT tanks. It's that simple.

 

No its not that simple, the only reason this was the case in Pre 2.0 was because of stat weights and bonuses in the skill trees, not because of shield vents. Rocket punch procs and heat vents were *not* the reason that shield was so valuable for PT tanks in pre 2.0. It was because of the bonuses to natural shielding and absorption in the tree, and not having *any* static bonuses to defense, or accuracy debuffs (with oil slick uptime being too spotty to assume its presence.)

 

And the defense bonus in the tree *is* a significant factor, but not the only one. Consider the returns on shield and absorb were reduced sharply during the PTS, and the devaluation defense has on absorb rating. If you look at the stat distributions on higher stat budgets in the tables make by KBN, you will notice that shield and absorb *will* become more important in future tiers.

Edited April 17, 2013 by Marb

[Mc_Gregor]

The math is theorycrafting, nothing more. Just because we got a small defense stat boost doesn't mean that the mechanics of the class has changed. Practical application dictates that shield > absorb > defense for PT tanks. It's that simple.

 

Math is based on tons of data provided from actual ops so it translates into numbers what you actually see on your screen. Bottom line is- it works.

 

And to the previous poster- no, powertechs didnt change magically over night, they were changed by developers with the patch with new talent tree and math formulas that run this game and make one stat more valuable than the other.

[Zhaaratustra]

And to the previous poster- no, powertechs didnt change magically over night, they were changed by developers with the patch with new talent tree and math formulas that run this game and make one stat more valuable than the other.

 

And this is the point where you are going wrong, the pt tank hasn't changed at all, only the scaling to shield and absorb has changed. Which means it's only more difficult to get to the point where the pt have to be with shield and absorbtion ratio.

 

To sum it up let's agree that we disagree, you believe in this math and the assumptions behind while me and a few others think otherwise. And no this math is not backed up by any actual real data it's based on old NiM Denova logs, which makes it to theorycrafting only.

KBN is valueing defense far to high and ignores the direct relation between shield and absorb. While defense competes directly to absorb shield does it not in the same way and while defense can stand on it's own as a stat neither can shield or absorb. So to make this math means something pratical the assumptions have to be altered:

1. Shield and absorb have to be handled together (i.e. if you have 35% shield absorb have to be 30% to make this shield rating mean anything)

2. The compensation for the shield + absorb stat scaling nerf have to be factored in since the base damage of champion mobs is being reduced which makes defense even more unintresting. While it is nice to dodge a huge bomb at Titan 6 or a terminating at the city event defense will not be that high that you can ignore the rng factor.

3. Real world logs from actual HC raids have to be taken for calculations.

4. The different tank classes have to be handled different.

 

I'm not a math guy so I will not do any of this, I will read such threads, think about it and if I agree with the assumptions I will consider the results, but I will continue my itemisation based on how this class have to be played and real raiding experiences.

Edited April 17, 2013 by Zhaaratustra

[chriscshunter]

Since 2.0 I've noticed that my numbers have dropped significantly even though I have the same/better gear.

 

So my current stats without stims are as follows:

14.46% Def

35.63% Shi

36.65% Abs

48.86% Dmg Red

30471 HP

 

So how does that look so far, and where do I go from here?

[TheronFett]

No its not that simple, the only reason this was the case in Pre 2.0 was because of stat weights and bonuses in the skill trees, not because of shield vents. Rocket punch procs and heat vents were *not* the reason that shield was so valuable for PT tanks in pre 2.0. It was because of the bonuses to natural shielding and absorption in the tree, and not having *any* static bonuses to defense, or accuracy debuffs (with oil slick uptime being too spotty to assume its presence.)

 

I wasn't trying to imply that shield vents and procs were the only reason to go with shield/absorb. You seem smart enough to realize that, so I guess you're only trolling in an attempt to strengthen your own position? To try and make me look dumb?

 

And the defense bonus in the tree *is* a significant factor, but not the only one. Consider the returns on shield and absorb were reduced sharply during the PTS, and the devaluation defense has on absorb rating. If you look at the stat distributions on higher stat budgets in the tables make by KBN, you will notice that shield and absorb *will* become more important in future tiers.

 

I wouldn't call the new defense bonus "significant". Certainly not enough to warrant a complete changing of the guard so to speak. Would you agree that Shieldtech is a mitigation tank? Considering that most talents revolve around damage reduction, shield, and absorb, I would certainly hope so. I don't have the skill tree in front of me, but I'm quite certain that the amount those bonuses offered to PT FAR outweigh the bonuses offered for defense, even if you consider it to be "significant".

 

I don't care what kind of fancy math and theorycrafting is used to determine stat weights. Theoretical physics can prove that an elephant can dangle over a cliff with its tail tied to a daisy. Use your eyes, your common sense, actual tanking experience and it proves otherwise. Look at the bonuses and gear and you'll easily find that defense stacking is not practical for Shieldtech.

[Marb]

I wasn't trying to imply that shield vents and procs were the only reason to go with shield/absorb. You seem smart enough to realize that, so I guess you're only trolling in an attempt to strengthen your own position? To try and make me look dumb?

I got the impression that you were basing the value of shield/abs on PT class mechanics, and I didn't mean to come off as a jerk. The very same sort of theorycrafting that you're skeptical of now, is responsible for giving you the high shield/abs low defense spread for powertechs that you readily accepted before 2.0, and you are now trying to apply that to the new stat model in 2.0. The whole concept of high shield/abs for powertechs was based on theorycrafting.

 

 

I wouldn't call the new defense bonus "significant". Certainly not enough to warrant a complete changing of the guard so to speak. Would you agree that Shieldtech is a mitigation tank? Considering that most talents revolve around damage reduction, shield, and absorb, I would certainly hope so. I don't have the skill tree in front of me, but I'm quite certain that the amount those bonuses offered to PT FAR outweigh the bonuses offered for defense, even if you consider it to be "significant".

All of the tanks are mitigation tanks, and heat screen and the new heat blast are calculated into KBN's stat spreads. If you compare PT stat distribution to guardians, you can see that the stats are different, with shield and absorb becoming more important at lower stat budgets compared to guardians. Its only at 2800 stat budget when shield starts to overtake defense, with absorb shooting up not far after that. Shield/Abs will still be important.

 

 

I don't care what kind of fancy math and theorycrafting is used to determine stat weights. Theoretical physics can prove that an elephant can dangle over a cliff with its tail tied to a daisy. Use your eyes, your common sense, actual tanking experience and it proves otherwise. Look at the bonuses and gear and you'll easily find that defense stacking is not practical for Shieldtech.

Real raid experience is important, but when it comes to selecting stats it becomes a numbers game. In that realm, stat weights are important and you should take notice of them to make informed choices about your gear. Defense stacking has always been dubious for powertechs due to, what are now outdated, skills and stat weights. 2.0 has turned stats upside down for all tanks, and it will take more tiers of gear for things to resemble what we had before 2.0.

 

 

To sum it up let's agree that we disagree, you believe in this math and the assumptions behind while me and a few others think otherwise. And no this math is not backed up by any actual real data it's based on old NiM Denova logs, which makes it to theorycrafting only.

That is a fair call, but KBN and dipstick are actively investigating the new playing field in 2.0, so there will surely be some updates to the tank spreads when they have HM S&V damage profiles. At worst, it may mean that relics and the odd piece of gear will have to be swapped for specific fights with high amounts of F/T damage.

Edited April 17, 2013 by Marb

[TheronFett]

I take theorycrafting and player-generated spreadsheets with a grain of salt.

 

Have previous discussions factored into how I've geared previous to 2.0? Absolutely. However, I re-geared no less than a dozen times, trying out different things for myself. I got feedback from my healers. I looked at my own parses when those were finally made available, and drew my own conclusions.

 

For the group I ran ops with, 15/40/40 was good enough, and the rest I chucked into Endurance and Aim. My personal experience is that PT is built to run with an Operative healer, and we had some very good ones. Tanking was never an issue for us, we seemed to fall short on DPS when there were problems, so I geared to our strengths and weaknesses. I will continue that trend looking ahead.

[TwoLekku]

I don't care what kind of fancy math and theorycrafting is used to determine stat weights. Theoretical physics can prove that an elephant can dangle over a cliff with its tail tied to a daisy. Use your eyes, your common sense, actual tanking experience and it proves otherwise. Look at the bonuses and gear and you'll easily find that defense stacking is not practical for Shieldtech.

 

Seriously? The game is run on "fancy math and theorycrafting". Or did you think little gnomes run around behind the scenes and roll 20-sided dice? If that sounds a bit snarky...it's because...it is.

 

OP is not saying you can't be a successful tank gearing as you did in pre-2.0. However, as the formulae did, literally, change overnight with the patch...so did the new stat balances. That is where 'real-world experience' falls short. If you're running with some great healers, you may be successful enough to not realize that you could be slightly better optimized.

 

If you want to be helpful, grab some parses that you believe prove your point and send them to KBN (along with your current mitigation stats) so that he can see how closely they stack up to what his distribution might predict. And if you don't understand the math, that's fine. Lots of people don't enjoy theorycrafting and still play the game well. Some of us love playing the game and also love the theorycrafting.

 

Just don't stroll around saying "this isn't right" and "I don't care about fancy math" in the same post. It's one or the other. Either you care about fancy math and can help us understand where KBN/Dipstik have missed something, or you don't care about math and have - literally - no idea if OP is on target. You just can't do both.

 

I, for one, am incredibly grateful for the work that OP has done.

[Shadowlure]

I agree theorycrafting has its place and appreciate the values the op has put forth. The way the game calculates things does have an impact yes.. but what none of this adressess is the fact that basic itemisation via commendation vendors means that the figures the op poses would be horrendously hard to achieve without significant sacrifices or HARD mode operation farming in order to get the mods to achieve the ratings he suggests at each gear rank. If defense is valued so highly why is it when I look at my Ultimate and Elite Comms vendors doI not see defense on more gear.. I see loads of absorb loads of shield and one or two pieces with defense stacked with a mitigation attribute.

 

Grab what defense you can itemisation doesn't make the theorycraft law, theorycraft rarely takes into account reasonable and realistic itemisation spreads.. i certainly am not going out to buy 9 pieces of kit with high end comms just for a defense mod or enhancement, certainly not when my talents promote shield and absorb, not defense like the kiddies say, I get one talent that boosts defense and Ibelieve that is because our gear has NONE of it in significant enough qualities in the current 2.0 envrionment.

 

As it is i am decked out in 162 gear no arkanian 4 piece for me yet and with mods I am sitting a mere 1.9% away from my defensive soft cap and my shield is 38% with absorb at around 35%, my basic itemisation also follows the soft cap model favoring shield and absorb over defense suggesting "designer intent"

Edited May 20, 2013 by Shadowlure

[ivonbeton]

I agree theorycrafting has its place and appreciate the values the op has put forth. The way the game calculates things does have an impact yes.. but what none of this adressess is the fact that basic itemisation via commendation vendors means that the figures the op poses would be horrendously hard to achieve without significant sacrifices or HARD mode operation farming in order to get the mods to achieve the ratings he suggests at each gear rank. If defense is valued so highly why is it when I look at my Ultimate and Elite Comms vendors doI not see defense on more gear.. I see loads of absorb loads of shield and one or two pieces with defense stacked with a mitigation attribute.

 

Grab what defense you can itemisation doesn't make the theorycraft law, theorycraft rarely takes into account reasonable and realistic itemisation spreads.. i certainly am not going out to buy 9 pieces of kit with high end comms just for a defense mod or enhancement, certainly not when my talents promote shield and absorb, not defense like the kiddies say, I get one talent that boosts defense and Ibelieve that is because our gear has NONE of it in significant enough qualities in the current 2.0 envrionment.

 

As it is i am decked out in 162 gear no arkanian 4 piece for me yet and with mods I am sitting a mere 1.9% away from my defensive soft cap and my shield is 38% with absorb at around 35%, my basic itemisation also follows the soft cap model favoring shield and absorb over defense suggesting "designer intent"

 

Most sensible post in this topic! Since both choices are certainly viable and only theorycrafting supports going all out on defense, I can't but agree with you.

[TwoLekku]

I agree theorycrafting has its place and appreciate the values the op has put forth. The way the game calculates things does have an impact yes.. but what none of this adressess is the fact that basic itemisation via commendation vendors means that the figures the op poses would be horrendously hard to achieve without significant sacrifices or HARD mode operation farming in order to get the mods to achieve the ratings he suggests at each gear rank. If defense is valued so highly why is it when I look at my Ultimate and Elite Comms vendors doI not see defense on more gear.. I see loads of absorb loads of shield and one or two pieces with defense stacked with a mitigation attribute.

 

Grab what defense you can itemisation doesn't make the theorycraft law, theorycraft rarely takes into account reasonable and realistic itemisation spreads.. i certainly am not going out to buy 9 pieces of kit with high end comms just for a defense mod or enhancement, certainly not when my talents promote shield and absorb, not defense like the kiddies say, I get one talent that boosts defense and Ibelieve that is because our gear has NONE of it in significant enough qualities in the current 2.0 envrionment.

 

As it is i am decked out in 162 gear no arkanian 4 piece for me yet and with mods I am sitting a mere 1.9% away from my defensive soft cap and my shield is 38% with absorb at around 35%, my basic itemisation also follows the soft cap model favoring shield and absorb over defense suggesting "designer intent"

 

Vendor gear isn't optimized for any spec...thought we'd have figured that out by now. Just because i get a bunch of crit-stuffed crap dropping for my lightning sorc doesn't mean i want it.

 

So my Powertech is currently sitting almost exactly where those kind theorycrafters said he should be...because I aug'ed with defense and therefore didn't have to spend a single credit swapping out mods from my drops. There's great math in this thread, and there are inexpensive ways to get there. You don't need to follow suit, but posts which essentially say "yeah, i see the math but i'm not gonna do it that way" are like telling us you're partial to green pants. So? Of course it's up to each one of us as to how far we want to go to match our stats to the theoretical best..."duh and/or hello", to quote Archer.

 

If anything, that should make you more grateful to the theorycrafter - now you know how much work you'd have to do to get from where you are to what you could be, and make more informed decisions. But 'designer intent' - you're kidding, right? The intent of the designers was to make you work your badonkadonk off to be perfectly itemised. You can trust the designers to drop you exactly the stats you need like you can trust them to design great-looking sorcerer armor. If that sounds sarcastic...well...it's because...