Crafting in 2.0

[IronAznSnsation]

I was thinking about crafting and the way it has changed. True, there are bugs, such as Hollinium and Perfect Carbonic Crystals, that make absolutely no sense, as no patterns even use those. It feels like a rip-off that RE-ing grade 30 gear no longer provides purple or blue exotic mats. This is a small list of the complaints that I've seen and felt. As I was writing out how it was unfair that Mass Manipulation Generators only appeared in HM SnV and NiM TFB (which only provide like 3) and that the crafting required too many grade 10 Exotic Equalizers, I realized that Bioware developers have attempted to solve multiple issues with crafting.

 

First, hardcore raiders now have their elite level gear that is only available to those who have completed the hardest content. You may no longer craft top tier, which make those with Underworld the "truly elite." This is catering to the most hardcore crowd, and I'm sure that as I get into this tier, I'll be happy as well.

 

Second, crafting has become hard. Not everyone can do it, since you have to be in mostly Black Market/Arkanian to more easily complete HM TFB and SnV. The crafters that you see will be mostly players who are in the hardcore raiding guilds and have put in the time to get geared and learn these patterns. People wanted crafting to be limited, and now it definitely is.

 

Third, copy crafting is no longer viable. From what I hear, you can still do it, but why would you? With enough time, you can go and grind FPs for most of the armorings, mods, and enhancements. Even then, until you gear out, you won't be able to run HM OPs to get the materials to make the gear to make the money.

 

Here are the problems with this model though. Pvpers and casual players want to make money too. This system totally alienates some 70-90% of the game's population. On top of that because crafting takes a major time commitment and a lot of resources to complete, it will be very expensive when these crafters do eventually make things. Because they are expensive but readily available via flashpoints, players won't purchase them until the price drops, which kills the incentive for crafting in the first place. As someone said in another post, crafting is like a mini-game and a lot of players get enjoyment out of doing it. Why would players spend so much time and in game currency only to come up short in profits? There are some players who will grind it out, but for many, they have killed off a part of the game that they really enjoyed. Even I have found it difficult to rationalize learning patterns.

 

The old model, while not perfect in a lot of ways, allowed people to make a lot of money, but it also geared the community. Content was still hard if people didn't understand mechanics. We complained about the problems, but they were definitely minor compared to overall benefit of being able to gear myself, my guild, and my friends.

 

To be honest, I don't like the changes. This game that I've spent over a year and a half on (beta etc), feels alien and strange. The changes have basically made an entirely new end game, if not an entirely new game. I suppose with time, we'll be able to tell if the changes were good or bad. The question is whether or not I'll be here to enjoy them. It's only several days into the pre-order, and I hear from a lot of guildies that they are leaving either when an upcoming mmo releases or their subscriptions run out. Bioware should have learned from other mmo's - make gradual changes because your fanbase only really wants more of the same....only different. I grudgingly admit that even with the flaws, the game has probably improved. After all, I complained about all of the things they attempted to fix. Although very unhappy now, I think we should stick with it and see how the game turns out in a few weeks. After all, a lot of the content is fun and gear isn't everything. Right?

Edited April 14, 2013 by IronAznSnsation

[Asurajones]

I think this sums up what is going on currently. I have the ability to craft some of the 30 rated gear(69s) but it seems pointless to do so. Why craft something I got in a flashpoint? Better yet, why craft something that I have to have to get the materials to craft it? This is completely the chicken or the egg argument. What comes first the mod you need to get the materials, or the material you need to make the mod? I guess I just don't want to have to get Arkanian Gear to make arkanian level gear. I understand that the system is currently set up so that people can't craft their way to high end gear, and it makes people go out and get it, but let us craft something worthwhile that you can't just walk out the door and get. Make something for us to achieve that make the mats worthwhile to use. A rare recipe for crafters we have to search for/quest for maybe find pieces of a recipe. A rare saber for Artifice, make pets with cybertech, poisons for biochem, etc. Right now the worth for the rare mats is so inflated it is worthless.

[IronAznSnsation]

Exactly. The problem I really have is that crafting has gone from a system that could potentially help gear my alts and guild to a system for players with tons of resources to make even more. It will be purely a system for making piles of credits by the players who have grinded out the most gear fastest.

 

I can already see how much can be made by getting the most in-demand patterns: Reflex and skill barrels, Might and resolve hilts, Deft Agile Aptitude and Artful mod 30 (not A's). Even though I know I'll probably be crafting and benefitting greatly from this system, I feel like the old system definitely allowed for non-linear ways of obtaining gear.

 

Also, I still don't understand why the Mass Manipulation Generators are available only in the hardest content. It indicates a fundamental shift in the developer's intentions for who can craft and how they want it done. Basically, it will be limited to PvE progression guilds, and given the rarity of these mats, the prices will also always stay high. The devs seem to be trying to make crafting a purely credit making venture. Even then, I don't see anyone but the richest or stupidest players buying these mods, as any credit-starved, clever player could just run FP's or SM OPs until they get enough pieces to run HM TFB/SnV and skip the tier.

 

The rich making for the other rich so that they can get richer. It's an even more flawed system than before, imo.

[asbalana]

Excelllent post OP and two good follow up posts by other members.

 

I think that you have just touched the surface. Pre cap crafting has also been badly hurt. The change to planetary commendations that can be used for boe mods, armorings, etc. will elimnate pre 50 crafting in a number of areas. One can send out their higher level alts, run heroics, and get a boat load of coms in a short time, buy the mods with them, and then mail them to an alt. There is no reason to buy mods, armorings, enhancements, barrels, etc. from crafters any longer. Sales for mats needed to craft those items will also fall to nil. I have seen this already.

 

There is no point to rant about this because done is done and I don't see how things can be fixed or direction changed easily or quickly. I think that the importance of crafting in an MMO is not often recognized, but my gut feeling is that the changes in crafting will impact the entire game and the community very negitively and that it will cause a significant drop in subs / players after people run through Makeb a few times. I think also that it will cause a significant decrease in CM resales since crafters will have no income to use to buy offered items.

 

My wife and I have been rabid crafters, something that we enjoyed even with all of the warts and problems, and have ceased all crafting and gathering with one or two exceptions since 2.0 hit.

Edited April 14, 2013 by asbalana

[DarthBama]

I think (keyword think) when they fix the garbage crew skill returns, things should improve dramatically. The first day the expansion went live, I had 8 characters running mat missions for almost 24 hours straight. I pretty much cleared out all of my credits and have very little to show for it except about 15 stacks of blue mats I can't use.

[Alec_Fortescue]

One big problem in regards of the gear crafting is the excessive rarity of the "epic" mats. Darvannis HM only... Hah.

[LeonBraun]

I think (keyword think) when they fix the garbage crew skill returns, things should improve dramatically. The first day the expansion went live, I had 8 characters running mat missions for almost 24 hours straight. I pretty much cleared out all of my credits and have very little to show for it except about 15 stacks of blue mats I can't use.

 

The return on purple mats doesn't seem to be any lower than it has been in the past, and to the contrary there also seem to be more missions available for purple level 9 mission mats as opposed to a bunch of companion gift missions.

Edited April 14, 2013 by LeonBraun

[Khevar]

The return on purple mats doesn't seem to be any lower than it has been in the past, and to the contrary there also seem to be more missions available for purple level 9 mission mats as opposed to a bunch of companion gift missions.

1. A crit on a moderate or below doesn't return purple mats. Unlike before.

2, A crit on rich or bountiful retuns One mat. Unlike before.

3. A crew mission returns the same amount (1). Unlike before.

 

Have you even tried crafting in 2.0?

[LeonBraun]

1. A crit on a moderate or below doesn't return purple mats. Unlike before.

2, A crit on rich or bountiful retuns One mat. Unlike before.

3. A crew mission returns the same amount (1). Unlike before.

 

Have you even tried crafting in 2.0?

 

I currently have 2 Crafting professions at 450/450... My Sentinel Cybertech is making 5 advanced might armouring 28 as I type this...

 

Note: It now only requires 2 purple mats instead of 4 to craft an advanced item... If they were to adjust the return rate, they would likely return the mat requirement to 4 again for advanced items... AKA: The return rate seems about right, unless people want the market flooded and items worth nothing.

Edited April 14, 2013 by LeonBraun

[Alec_Fortescue]

It also feels to me like if devs made a mistake... Isotope-5 doesn't seem to have any use at the moment. I think it was meant to be used for Arkanian crafting. New gear crafting is tad useless if we can't make best stuff available. What's the point of buying Arkanian/Black Market grade gear if you're looking to replace it soon anyway with ultimates? They will have to be expensive because it's hard to learn them (10%) and mats are very rare.

 

Also you can fairly easily complete SV HM with a team composed of guys in full Dread Guard gear, with perhaps few black market or Arkanian upgrades.

 

How I'd settle with the gear crafting:

20% chance for Arkanian/Black Market, 10% for Ultimate.

Prevent schem-stealing (it's not solved)

Let us r/e best possible gear.

Let us get mats from reversing post dread guard armorings.

Edited April 14, 2013 by Alec_Fortescue

[Khevar]

I currently have 2 Crafting professions at 450/450... My Sentinel Cybertech is making 5 advanced might armouring 28 as I type this...

 

Note: It now only requires 2 purple mats instead of 4 to craft an advanced item... If they were to adjust the return rate, they would like return the mat requirement to 4 again for advanced items...

So how long did it take you to get 20 Thermal Regulators?

 

In 1.7, I could get 20 Advanced Neural Augmentors with three 340 silcing missions and anywhere from 5 to 10 slicing missions.

 

As of 2.0, I've run close to 100 regular slicing missions, and two 450 crew missions, and I got 5 Themal Regulators.

 

Realize, I'm not complaining, I'm saying your claim that it "isn't any lower" is spurious.

[Vandicus]

1. A crit on a moderate or below doesn't return purple mats. Unlike before.

2, A crit on rich or bountiful retuns One mat. Unlike before.

3. A crew mission returns the same amount (1). Unlike before.

 

Have you even tried crafting in 2.0?

 

What skill is that? My underworld trade returns 2 beryllius for moderate and 3-4 for the better missions on crits.

 

On the original topic itself, I agree with the OP that ease of use has always been a key part to the draw of crafting in TOR, but its also important to distinguish people who complete current end game content. You say you prefer the old model, but perhaps it is possible to find compromise between the two systems that restricts BiS to raiders while also allowing people to craft underworld level mods(something that comes to mind is the intentionally sub optimal stat allocation for out of box gear, maybe if it was reversed so that out of box gear had the best stat allocations and the individual mod drops had suboptimal ones).

[LeonBraun]

So how long did it take you to get 20 Thermal Regulators?

 

In 1.7, I could get 20 Advanced Neural Augmentors with three 340 silcing missions and anywhere from 5 to 10 slicing missions.

 

As of 2.0, I've run close to 100 regular slicing missions, and two 450 crew missions, and I got 5 Themal Regulators.

 

Realize, I'm not complaining, I'm saying your claim that it "isn't any lower" is spurious.

 

Perhaps I've had some good luck, but I've also noted the purple crafting mat requirement has also been cut in half, so the ultimate return seems to be about the same...

 

That said, slicing is not one of the professions I have capped right now, and perhaps also you've run into a string of bad luck mission wise...

[KyaniteD]

The return on purple mats doesn't seem to be any lower than it has been in the past, and to the contrary there also seem to be more missions available for purple level 9 mission mats as opposed to a bunch of companion gift missions.

 

I got 1 Thermal Regulator from a 450 purple slicing mission. Even with the requirements cut in half that's still two purple missions where I used to need only one.

[Khevar]

Perhaps I've had some good luck, but I've also noted the purple crafting mat requirement has also been cut in half, so the ultimate return seems to be about the same...

 

That said, slicing is not one of the professions I have capped right now, and perhaps also you've run into a string of bad luck mission wise...

Well, we actually had a dev confirmation that moderate and below missions don't return Thermal Regulators. So that is a change for sure.

 

Secondly, the 340 crew missions return more mats than a regular mission crit. The 450 crew missions return the same as a regular mission crit.

 

Also, the grade 28 augments require 4 Thermal Regulators, just like the grade 22 augments required 4 ANAs.

[Asurajones]

A lot of this is off topic, We aren't talking about crafting augments. We are talking about the need to farm S&V HM to get the Mass manipulator to make the mods/armor/enchancements we already have. Like it was said above, Devs already said the know there is an issue with slicing missions, get off that.

[IronAznSnsation]

The change in crafting that I posted was about the limited supply of Mass Manipulation Generators, which only appear in SnV HM. As 28 mods are only slightly better than Dread Guard, it is not really a integral step in the gearing process. Grade 30 items, even the A and B versions, are, however, a significant improvement from the 27 tier. These require 4 Exotic Equalizers and 1 Mass Manipulation Generators. SnV is completable with a coordinated and knowledgeable group in DG, but the effort is a strain without Arkanian. Mass Manipulation Generators can only be used to create Arkanian ie Grade 30 items. There is a paradox inherent in such a system: to be able to farm these Generators, you need to the gear you are trying to make to be able to do it easily. In other words, you can't craft the gear for yourself til you basically have no need for the gear. Even if you can craft the gear, you will only be able to sell it to the rich, because of how readily available most of the gear is in HM 55 FPs and SM Ops. To sum up my point: they have created a system of crafting where it is no longer useful to directly gear up - it can only be used to earn currency once you've already surpassed the need to craft.

 

I suppose you could argue that you can use these mats to gear your alts and guildies who need them, but even with a run on SnV HM, you can only hope to craft a maximum of 3 items per week, and there are 8-16 other people in that raid with you.

[DJUplift]

i think (keyword think) when they fix the garbage crew skill returns, things should improve dramatically. The first day the expansion went live, i had 8 characters running mat missions for almost 24 hours straight. I pretty much cleared out all of my credits and have very little to show for it except about 15 stacks of blue mats i can't use.

 

 

ditto

[Mitharan]

There is no problem with not letting the top tier be crafted. However, the needed mats dropping in the top tier raid only usable on the lower tier gear? Assuming you follow the progression set out by Bioware, if you're in HM S&V or harder, you're already in Arkanian gear. Why am I crafting things I already am in? This means the drops are for alts or for money making purposes only.

 

As said in the original post, you can get geared out easily in 30 mods by 55 HM FPs so why spend the money to buy crafted pieces. I spent Friday farming FPs and I'm done with needing enhancements, have a few armorings to spare and only need mods. Thats in 1 day. I'll never spend ANY money on 30 mods, let alone the millions they are going for at the moment.

 

The original raid mats layout works the best. SM has some, HM has more. Let end game guilds make money off it, but make it available that the price will drop to be worth it. Or at the very least let the Underworld "offset" pieces be crafted. Ear, implant, relic

[SomeJagoff]

The original raid mats layout works the best. SM has some, HM has more. Let end game guilds make money off it, but make it available that the price will drop to be worth it. Or at the very least let the Underworld "offset" pieces be crafted. Ear, implant, relic

 

Or like it was from 1.2-1.7, make pve and pvp gear REable for exotic mats as well. Adding scarcity to these mats and gear isn't good for the game.

 

This update definitely made the mistake of catering to ONLY the top tier raiders, which are truly the minority of swtor.

 

-Hardcore top tier raiders have the best gear from raiding

-Hardcore top tier raiders get the rare mats

-Hardcore top tier raiders get the most credits

-Hardcore top tier raiders can walk into pvp and dominate those with pvp gear (but then so can naked people, so this one is a bit of a draw)

 

-Casual pvers get nothing

-Casual pvpers get nothing

-Hardcore pvpers get nothing

 

 

Ah well, bioware will learn in a month or two when their subs drop by 200-500k. Or maybe they won't and they'll just get fired and replaced by a new dev team. but hey, maybe the next team of developers will give us naked raiding bolster with no repair costs.

 

haha or maybe EA will just shut the game down, then everybody wins!

[Ilith]

I agree it was a bit too easy for a fresh 50 to obtain BIS before 2.0... assuming every possible optimal condition. My alts had a full set waiting the moment they dinged. But I'm easily in the top 5% in terms of player activity. I have multiple 50s, millions of credits, raid multiple times a week and have done since launch. It took me 3 days to get the Master Craftsman achievement. Gearing alts pre-2.0 was easily doable for me. For anyone else, not so much.

 

In 2.0, I can no longer do this. So BW solved the problem of the top 5% of players achieving BIS too easily. The problem is the total suite of changes has destroyed the crafting market, full stop, period. How it works now:

 

 

• Endgame top tier: Not craftable (that's fine, I don't think anyone really objects)
  
• Endgame sub tier: Mats extremely rare --> extremely expensive --meanwhile-- Gear itself easily obtainable via flashpoints --> no demand --> No market. This is similar to the pre-1.4 system where Columi mods were potentially craftable, but almost no one bothered.
  
• Leveling gear: Ka-boom, there went the market. So easily obtainable now via planetary comms. Want purple Rakata mods for your new level 50? Go do some heroics on Dromund Kaas. Want some lower level mods? Go do some heroics on Dromund Kaas. There's no weekly cap anymore so this is even easier. (For the record, I'm glad the cap was removed. Besides, Dromund Kaas is awesome!) Note if these mods were BOP, the situation would be very different!
  
• Crafting non-orange armor items: What's the point? Everyone wants to wear custom oranges. The Cartel Market encourages this too.
  
• Crafting purples: Due to the cost of mats, it's necessary to price these beyond the range of new/casuals. They can't be used by F2P anyway. Hooray, I'm selling to rich people just like me. This doesn't help the game.
  
• Crafting schematics for L66 items: What is the purpose of these? Go run some flashpoints. --> Small market.
  

 

As others pointed out, once you have the ability to craft Arkanian mods, you no longer need them. And the gear is so easy to obtain there's no desire for it. It's almost like there needs to be a tier of crafted mods between Arkanian and Underworld. Once again I'm reminded of the situation with Columi and Rakata crafting.

 

If this is BW's intention at the beginning of a new gear cycle, so be it. If this is not intentional, it needs to be rethought. I have no idea whether the current system is temporary, or a template for all crafting going forward.

 

On my server the market for crafted mods has totally collapsed at all levels. I expect the "fair weather crafters" who amassed quick 'n' easy credit hoards by selling 27 gear will shake out of the market, same goes for people who dug a niche selling lower level mods. Farming dailies for credits should become more popular. I will of course continue to monitor... Crafting is my mini-game.

[dscount]

So how long did it take you to get 20 Thermal Regulators?

 

In 1.7, I could get 20 Advanced Neural Augmentors with three 340 silcing missions and anywhere from 5 to 10 slicing missions.

 

As of 2.0, I've run close to 100 regular slicing missions, and two 450 crew missions, and I got 5 Themal Regulators.

 

Realize, I'm not complaining, I'm saying your claim that it "isn't any lower" is spurious.

 

DITTO! I would get at LEAST 2-3 Neural's in CRIT in the pre-2.0 world. Now a whole ONE Thermal Regulator per CRIT is just crap and they have stated they know its an issue. Fixed "SOON" we are told.

[Andryah]

I expect the "fair weather crafters" who amassed quick 'n' easy credit hoards by selling 27 gear will shake out of the market, same goes for people who dug a niche selling lower level mods.

 

Personally, I believe that was the intention and I agree with it. Good crafters always find their niche in a changing economy and do well by it. I have a lot of respect for them too. Crafting should be a mini-game and a profit center for the really good crafters... not the fair weather low hanging fruit harvesters.

 

I know my view is not popular with the fair weather crowd... but hey... it's the right thing to do for the game. They just need to adapt and be better crafters and carve their niche or find a different trade to earn income IMO.

[asbalana]

llith

 

Excelllent post. Your points were right on and well build to your conclusion.

 

It will be interesting to see if net play time and number of players drop as a consequence of the hit to crafting. People who logged on partly to craft and play the GTN and run gathering missions may be less likely to do so as a result of the changes. Of course if the numbers start dropping, it will be impossible to isolate the causes since there may be many interrelated ones. As you noted, crafting is a mini game that many people played.

 

I also wonder about the resale market of CM goods. If crafters do not generate credits by crafting, it may be that the sale of CM items falls as well. Of course, that would be an unintended and bad consequence for EA/BW and badly impact the game in the future.

 

I am not sure that "rethinking" is a possibility at this point since it would mean a revamp of the 2.0 crafting system which would be a major and time consuming endeavor.

 

Luck to you.

[dscount]

Personally, I believe that was the intention and I agree with it. Good crafters always find their niche in a changing economy and do well by it. I have a lot of respect for them too. Crafting should be a mini-game and a profit center for the really good crafters... not the fair weather low hanging fruit harvesters.

 

I know my view is not popular with the fair weather crowd... but hey... it's the right thing to do for the game. They just need to adapt and be better crafters and carve their niche or find a different trade to earn income IMO.

 

Good point. While crafting did get kicked in the balls this time around I believed folks will adjust as you said.

 

Meanwhile, if BW can get its crap in order for drop rates it would actually be a little more easy to adjust.