It's great to PVE with no Damage Meters

[Backbones]

The beauty of this or any MMO is freedom of choice to play with those you prefer to play with. No tool is deserving of making that choice for you.

 

This is just stupid.

 

"You can play with whoever you like! But we'll make sure you never have the necessary means to make your decisions, uwahahaha"

Edited December 21, 2011 by Backbones

[Jalal]

Damage meters are useful when there are consequences for not performing to your potential such as time and repair costs for wipes because someone couldn't cut the mustard.

[GalacticKegger]

Originally Posted by GalacticKegger

The beauty of this or any MMO is freedom of choice to play with those you prefer to play with. No tool is deserving of making that choice for you.

This is just stupid.

Why is that? Edited December 21, 2011 by GalacticKegger

[Backbones]

Why is that?

 

You can't say that I have the freedom to discriminate who I play with based on their ability to play the game well while I also saying that I don't deserve the means to gauge someone's efficiency.

[Colobulous]

If I would be a game designer, then I would make an MMO that is not like any other.

 

I don't think you realize how problematic that could be.

 

Even leaving aside the problem of coming up with innovative design ideas that haven't been done already, you'd still have the issue of customer satisfaction, and believe it or not, people do like things they consider familiar.

 

I never had any trouble at wow with getting kicked, low damage (I am a tank anyways) or whatever - but I saw how bad people got treaten by "kids" who did run these addons. I had an addon running too which did show me the amount of intercepts, damage taken etc. and believe me when I say, most of these "insulting group members" did take more damage then I did or didnt do anything else beside´s nuking.

 

You do realize you would never notice the people quietly running the meters without making a lot of noise about it, because it just wouldn't come up...don't you?

 

Or do you think they don't exist?

 

If BW does add addons here, it will be the same result. Thats why I think that addons should be enabled or disabled by the player himself, if they are added. Those who want to be tracked can, those who wont cant.

 

Those who don't want to be tracked, will find themselves not in groups because everybody else will select them out of it.

 

Otherwise, why aren't they in those groups already? Is somebody stopping them?

 

Simple solution, everyone is happy except those who use addons for insults.

 

Then why aren't they doing it already?

[Kurnea]

Why is that?

 

Because the beauty of freedom in an mmo seems to be a pro-addon sentiment when you look at it further. If people in a group are using addons and someone in the group doesn't like it, the problem isn't the addon, but rather that the wrong people chose to group together. The whole matter could easily be cleared by saying "LFG for Hammer Station, no dps meters or other addons, please!" instead of simply "LFG for Hammer Station".

[darthjerro]

Maybe don't do heroics with these kinds of players. I've never had a problem, but I'm very selective about who I do these things with.

 

SOOO, how do you weed them out? You cannot inspect someone that whispers you to join, you cant see their talent tree.....How exactly can you tell they will suck? Id love to know as i seem to get windowlickers in every group.....

[Colobulous]

SOOO, how do you weed them out? You cannot inspect someone that whispers you to join, you cant see their talent tree.....How exactly can you tell they will suck? Id love to know as i seem to get windowlickers in every group.....

 

Which means you'll only group with people who you already know, which means...oh no!

 

It means the elitist attitudes win either way!

[GalacticKegger]

You can't say that I have the freedom to discriminate who I play with based on their ability to play the game well while I also saying that I don't deserve the means to gauge someone's efficiency.

When it comes to choosing who to play with, I prefer not to become a slave to any tool. Realistically no one has or deserves the right to gauge anyone else's anything without their consent. Which is a weakness with dungeonfinders. No meter? Drop them. That needs to stay in WoW. Edited December 21, 2011 by GalacticKegger

[TradewindNQ]

When it comes to choosing who to play with, I prefer not to become a slave to any tool. Realistically no one deserves to gauge anyone else's anything unless the other is willing to submit to the scrutiny. Which is a weakness with dungeonfinders. No meter? Drop them. That needs to stay in WoW.

 

So you're saying you'd be absolutely content with absolutely no way to measure why someone isn't pulling their weight? It's entirely reasonable for you to spend your spare time picking up their slack?

 

I also don't think any advocate for meters thus far is averse to that same level of scrutiny at all. In fact, I expect it.

[Caelrie]

When it comes to choosing who to play with, I prefer not to become a slave to any tool. Realistically no one deserves to gauge anyone else's anything unless the other is willing to submit to the scrutiny. Which is a weakness with dungeonfinders. No meter? Drop them. That needs to stay in WoW.

 

You gave consent when you joined someone else's group.

[GalacticKegger]

You gave consent when you joined someone else's group.

I believe the consent would have been mutual or I would not have joined.

[Bigguyonarock]

You gave consent when you joined someone else's group.

 

Exactly.

 

Don't want to be scrutinized by other people?

 

Don't put yourself in a position where your actions affect other people.

Edited December 21, 2011 by Bigguyonarock

[Yfelsung]

When it comes to choosing who to play with, I prefer not to become a slave to any tool. Realistically no one has or deserves the right to gauge anyone else's anything without their consent. Which is a weakness with dungeonfinders. No meter? Drop them. That needs to stay in WoW.

 

By joining the group, you give consent.

 

Think of it this way, if they added the ability to opt out of being parsed by a DPS meter add on, people just wouldn't take those of you who have opted out.

 

I sure as hell wouldn't. A player who's good who doesn't use DPS meters doesn't care if he gets parsed, a character with DPS meters obviously doesn't care.

 

The person who doesn't wish to have their performance monitored are obviously hiding something.

[Colobulous]

I believe the consent would have been mutual or I would not have joined.

 

But you did join, and so...you have consented to it.

 

Don't accept the invite if you don't want to accept what might happen from it, when the consequences are rather obvious.

 

 

When it comes to choosing who to play with, I prefer not to become a slave to any tool.

 

But you are, especially on the Internet, with a whole host of tools being responsible for what happens.

 

Realistically no one has or deserves the right to gauge anyone else's anything without their consent. Which is a weakness with dungeonfinders. No meter? Drop them. That needs to stay in WoW.

 

Yeah, I'm pretty sure you chose to get into the dungeon finder. And nobody is going to care if you have a meter, just how you perform in the group.

 

Why on earth do you expect otherwise?

Edited December 21, 2011 by Colobulous

[darthjerro]

Fun fact, I have two monitors and can watch Netflix and play TOR at the same time. Realistically, I could give just enough attention to follow the group, and then spam hit 1 for my basic attack while I give the rest of my attention to watching Deep Space Nine.

 

Are you the same kurnea of the wow raid and dungeon forums?

[Scerion]

Yeah let's make everyone just write down on a piece of paper, a running tally of how many abilities they're using, what sort of proc rates they're getting from abilities and items, discern how much of a percentage one ability is contributing to their damage as a whole and whether or not they were effective in distributing damage to fights that may have Adds involved.

Yeah I know, putting effort into things is hard, right? As I've said (several times now) a combat log is fine, which can be uploaded to an online analysis tool (like the old wow-heroes site) and will give much better information than a DPS meter will, whacking on a training dummy. And if you really think that a DPS meter is the way to optimise your performance you must be living in 2005 - there are MUCH better tools out now that any progression raider will use (and I did when I used to raid heavily.) DPS meters are primitive tools used only for epeen stroking.

 

Also, if you really have to use such a thng, because you don't know about the other options (as you clearly don't) then a DPS meter that shows only your own stats would be fine. It's when everyone elses stats are gathered, and then used as the source of an argument/trolling session, I have an issue.

So again, I ask you why are you against others having it? Nobody's forcing you to have it.

See above. I don't want YOU collecting data about ME. Even if I'm doing 10 times your DPS, I still don't want YOU reading MY data.

I play both WoW and SWToR and intend to continue doing so. As a guild we use meters and online logs to make improvements to how we approach things. As a result we shaved off almost a minute on our Ultraxion kill and had 19 people rank in the top 200 on various fights for our raid last night. I'd say that these tools provide beneficial feedback for people who want to use them.

 

As any group of random idiots can clear the latest raid content in WoW in a couple of hours, I don't find that impressive. I'm not going to bother waving my epeen, but I'll just say I don't find that impressive at all ;-) (but I will say my raid team were the 2nd on our realm to get Yogg+1 and also the Firefighter achievement back when it was extremely hard. Current raids in WoW are designed to make "everyone a winner!!") We didn't use DPS meters to aid progress at all. We used combat logs and a little tool called rawr which can simulate combat for a character in any set of gear - suggest improvements and rotation, buffs, stat food etc. It makes looking at the childish charts from recount look like a big joke.

[GalacticKegger]

So you're saying you'd be absolutely content with absolutely no way to measure why someone isn't pulling their weight? It's entirely reasonable for you to spend your spare time picking up their slack?

 

I also don't think any advocate for meters thus far is averse to that same level of scrutiny at all. In fact, I expect it.

I would because if I'm playing for this purpose then someone not pulling their weight would come intuitively obvious. This is where an optional combat log would help tremendously. To review a fight blow by blow and learn what REALLY happened. Meters are just computations of total output that are better served on a targeting droid. Edited December 21, 2011 by GalacticKegger

[Friendzie]

I believe the consent would have been mutual or I would not have joined.

 

You are seriously trying to make combat logs seem like a violation of your privacy that you need to consent to? Yes, just join a guild full of people who feel the same as you and stay away from me. Personally, I'd like to have hard stats as to why to keep or kick you from my group. Yes, whether you're a nice person also matters quite a lot, but you apparently aren't. You're one of those people whom if I try to help you out to do better, you snob on me for being an elitist.

[Bigguyonarock]

This is where an optional combat log would help tremendously. To review a fight blow by blow and learn what REALLY happened. Meters are just computations of total output that are better served on a targeting droid.

 

A good modern parser can break down that aggregate data and even display when what happened.

 

It's a bit quicker than scrolling through your combat log which might've already capped at 300 lines so you're missing about 3 minutes worth of fight data.

[Kurnea]

When it comes to choosing who to play with, I prefer not to become a slave to any tool. Realistically no one has or deserves the right to gauge anyone else's anything without their consent.

 

With just about any multiplayer game that connects to a server, your stats are being tracked, recorded, and saved. For example, here are my stats for Battlefield 3, publicly viewable: (And yes, dear lord do I suck )http://bf3stats.com/stats_pc/Kurnea

 

Performance tracking is rather common with gaming, actually. Win/losses records, averages, performance charts, all of these are accepted and even considerd a major part of the game/sport. For example, here's Babe's Ruths stats: http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/r/ruthba01.shtml

 

Now is there really anyone who thinks it's wrong that players numbers are tracked and made public?

[Pokeytehpenguin]

My 2 Cents

 

1. I love to Theroy craft, Sometimes I like thinking about which peice of gear is better/ looking at spread sheets more than actually getting the gear.

 

PVE on its own can (not always) be boring... repetitive, the new challenge for me in PVE often becomes making myself the best possible player...pushing my damage to the limits and spending hours theory crafting.

 

2. Anyone can learn the rotations, but the extra edge that separates the great from the good comes from things that are out of rotation, what abilities to use when you have to move, when to pop cool downs, what procs to use and when. I would like to have a meter so that I can tool my combat for each encounter, with those hard facts you can determine what the best choice of action is for every situation beyond the rotation.

 

3. Me and my friends are competitive: I have been blessed with several old (real life) friends who I have played MMO's with for the past 10 years. When content is no longer fresh, one of the ways we amuse ourselves is to compete for top DPS, I wont apologize for being competitive, it makes grinds fun. (along with other things we do of a much stupider nature )

 

4. While I admit I do not pug often (my friends and I always have our own guild) so my exposure to annoying e-peen contests and people getting kicked is limited, I have yet to see a real, logical argument explained in detail why not having damage meters improves the game over the OPTION to have one.

 

 

I know this has all been said before, but with such a long thread that I am sure BW is reading, I wanted to throw my hat into the "please add a meter" camp.

Edited December 21, 2011 by Pokeytehpenguin

[Colobulous]

Now is there really anyone who thinks it's wrong that players numbers are tracked and made public?

 

Especially for Baseball players! They even post them in the paper!

[Friendzie]

This is where an optional combat log would help tremendously. To review a fight blow by blow and learn what REALLY happened. Meters are just computations of total output that are better served on a targeting droid.

 

Yeah but people misusing a tool isn't a problem with the tool. This logic you're using is like people who hate Facebook because some people are obnoxious on it. Just don't associate with obnoxious people. You shouldn't be making any argument against having the tool. You should be in favor of it completely if you think that analysis is useful. There is no way to have a tool that analyzes the fight blow by blow without having the ability to look at the damage.

[Kurnea]

Are you the same kurnea of the wow raid and dungeon forums?

 

I've never been in the raid and dungeon forums that I remember, but I've posted alot either in General or the off-topic forums. If it was a Holy Pally from Uldum, though, that would be me.