A matter of fairness

[ArchangelLBC]

I can envision 3 balanced models for the entire community:

 

1. Both PVPers and PVEers have to work for PVP and PVE gear to enjoy the entire game, PVP and PVE.

2. Both PVPers and PVEers get bolstered so they can enjoy the entire game, regardless of their gear.

3. Only one type of tiered gear for everybody, which can be obtained from either PVP or PVE.

 

None of these approaches might be completely ideal, but they are inherently fair to everyone.

But if only one part of the community has to work for gear and the other gets bolstered, that isn't!

 

Is that really so hard to understand?

 

 

Both PVE and PVP players will be able to experience entry level endgame content of the opposite discipline using gear they earn in their chosen area of focus. Neither will be able to meaningfully participate in the absolute top tier content of either area of focus without getting gear from that area.

 

Want to do ranked warzones? You're going to need Partisan and Conqueror's gear.

 

Want to do Hard Mode opeartions? You're going to do need Arkanian and Underworld gear

 

So, in point of fact your first scenario is what is being done. Conqeror's gear is already just fine for HM flashpoints and perhaps Story Mode operations (where you can earn that Arkanian gear you need), but will not fly in HM Ops. Top level PVE gear will be ok for normal warzones (where you can earn the Partisan gear you need), but will not fly in Ranked Warzones.

 

What are you complaining about again?

[Joesixxpack]

I agree that it sucks a bit in principle. In practice though I'm not bothered, and would rather see this change than not. Edited April 4, 2013 by Joesixxpack

[LarryRow]

Is that really so hard to understand?

Why can't you understand that pvp and pve are very different game systems that are meant to present very different challenges, and demanding analogous gear progressions for both types of content is stupid.

Edited April 4, 2013 by LarryRow

[Seireeni]

Both PVE and PVP players will be able to experience entry level endgame content of the opposite discipline using gear they earn in their chosen area of focus. Neither will be able to meaningfully participate in the absolute top tier content of either area of focus without getting gear from that area.

 

Want to do ranked warzones? You're going to need Partisan and Conqueror's gear.

 

Want to do Hard Mode opeartions? You're going to do need Arkanian and Underworld gear

 

So, in point of fact your first scenario is what is being done. Conqeror's gear is already just fine for HM flashpoints and perhaps Story Mode operations (where you can earn that Arkanian gear you need), but will not fly in HM Ops. Top level PVE gear will be ok for normal warzones (where you can earn the Partisan gear you need), but will not fly in Ranked Warzones.

 

What are you complaining about again?

 

Compare how much activity there is in normal wzs vs. ranked wzs.

Now compare how much activity there is in ops vs. hm fps.

See the problem?

[ArchangelLBC]

Compare how much activity there is in normal wzs vs. ranked wzs.

Now compare how much activity there is in ops vs. hm fps.

See the problem?

 

Do you have the stats on how many HM FPs and SM OPs are being completed compared to HM OPs?

 

Do you have similar stats for how many different warzones are being played vs how many ranked warzones?

 

The only problem with ranked warzones is you have to get on the same page as your opponents so you can get queue pops. That's a flaw in ranked warzone design though, and has not a thing to do with bolster.

[Seireeni]

Do you have the stats on how many HM FPs and SM OPs are being completed compared to HM OPs?

 

Do you have similar stats for how many different warzones are being played vs how many ranked warzones?

 

The only problem with ranked warzones is you have to get on the same page as your opponents so you can get queue pops. That's a flaw in ranked warzone design though, and has not a thing to do with bolster.

 

No, I don't have stats. But as far as I know, ranked wzs don't pop every 5 minutes like normal wzs do.

Also, the post I was replying implied that pvp gear may be good enough for sm ops, so I did the hm fp vs. ops -comparision, not hm fps + sm ops vs. hm ops -comparision.

If pvp gear would be fine for all sm ops (not only that you can do it, but that groups actually take you in for those groups), I'd be fine with the situation, but from my experience, outside groupfinder it's not easy to get to groups.

[Totaltrash]

Want to do ranked warzones? You're going to need Partisan and Conqueror's gear.

 

Want to do Hard Mode opeartions? You're going to do need Arkanian and Underworld gear

 

You are comparing apples and oranges:

 

For every RWZ team there are probably 100 HM OPS teams.

2.0 is not going to change that and cross-server Ranked is not going to happen in 2013, if ever.

 

Can you follow that?

 

<snip>

the top tier PvE gear will put you in between "recruit" level and Partisan gear.

 

Is that just what Bioware claims it will do or do you know that for sure?

Because every bit of info on the 2.0 bolster, including what people have tested on the PTS, suggests VERY differently.

[Monterone]

As a pvper I'm ok with this.

 

I really don't care how much time someone put into their pvp gear as long as I don't have to leave the wz because our side stands no chance, due to half the team being poorly geared. This makes it more about skill and less about gear, which is good.

 

And if you really wanna be competitive, play ranked... everyone is equally min/maxed.

[ArchangelLBC]

No, I don't have stats. But as far as I know, ranked wzs don't pop every 5 minutes like normal wzs do.

Also, the post I was replying implied that pvp gear may be good enough for sm ops, so I did the hm fp vs. ops -comparision, not hm fps + sm ops vs. hm ops -comparision.

If pvp gear would be fine for all sm ops (not only that you can do it, but that groups actually take you in for those groups), I'd be fine with the situation, but from my experience, outside groupfinder it's not easy to get to groups.

 

The "may be", as far as my understanding goes, comes down to the skill of the players. Just like you can do sm ops in recruit gear now.

 

Of course as you say, being able to do them, and finding a group to take you are two different things, but people who are that snobbish wouldn't group with you for PVP if you were wearing PVE gear either (i.e. if the situations were exactly reversed). This is a player problem, not an inherent design flaw. Find a group that will let you go or use group finder. You'll be able to do both TFB and S&V through groupfinder and you can't do story mode more than once a week anyway.

 

You are comparing apples and oranges:

 

For every RWZ team there are probably 100 HM OPS teams.

2.0 is not going to change that and cross-server Ranked is not going to happen in 2013, if ever.

 

Can you follow that?

.

 

Again, that's on the players. None of those ranked teams that plan on trying to compete are gonna take you with PVE gear no matter how good it is, just like none of those hundreds of ops teams is likely to take you in full Conqeror's gear to HM OPs.

 

If there aren't more players looking to do ranked, that suggests a widespread lack of desire to get a good competitive scene going, or a lack of real incentive by BW, and again has nothing to do with bolster whatsoever.

 

Also, you can do ranked every night of the week if you can get a team together and people to queue against. You can only run the ops once (though I suppose if it takes you all week to finish...).

 

I'm not saying they're the exact same. I'm saying that the differences between them have nothing to do with bolster.

[Tragamite]

Upon reaching 50 a player had to grind in PvP to earn Centurion, Champion and Battlemaster gear and grind PvE to earn Tionese, Columi and then Rakata gear each to progress to the next level of the game in that area.

 

When the majority of PvPers had earned Champion-Battlemaster gear new 50's were getting rolled and complained they couldn't keep up in PvP. Bye bye Centurion and Champion gear hello free Recruit gear. No change to PvE tiers. Add in WH and BH gear to advance the styles of play.

 

Gear gap between Recruit and WH gear is complained to be too great reevaluate PvP gear bye bye Recruit gear hello Recruit Mk II and enter EHW and a continued gap progression in PvP.

 

Continue the complaints that PvE'ers cannot compete with dedicated PvP'ers so adjust the bolster to assist PvE'ers more while the only offering to the PvP community to get on line with PvE'ers is enough tionese comms for ALMOST a full set of PvE gear OH except no relics, implants or earpiece available from tionese vendor.

 

Tionese = Centurion, Centurion is an obsolete gear to PvP. PvE is not offering the same opportunities to a PvPer that PvP is offering to PvE'ers =/= Fair.

[Seireeni]

The "may be", as far as my understanding goes, comes down to the skill of the players. Just like you can do sm ops in recruit gear now.

 

Of course as you say, being able to do them, and finding a group to take you are two different things, but people who are that snobbish wouldn't group with you for PVP if you were wearing PVE gear either (i.e. if the situations were exactly reversed). This is a player problem, not an inherent design flaw. Find a group that will let you go or use group finder. You'll be able to do both TFB and S&V through groupfinder and you can't do story mode more than once a week anyway.

 

 

 

I'm not saying they're the exact same. I'm saying that the differences between them have nothing to do with bolster.

 

I'm pretty sure that BW knew what the situation was when thinking of this bolster. Just making things unfair and then blaming the players for not playing enough ranked wz is not the right way to go.

Though, if I will be able to do all sm ops (and find groups for them with no trouble at all), it kind of makes it up to me. Since that's what pve-players can do with pvp.

[Ottoattack]

I am not sure were the OP is getting his information. The the bloaster at level 55 is will give people in PvE gear some expertise so they would not be eaten alive. It is still weaker than PvP gear.

 

For the accessibility of the game, end game PvP requires minimum BiS WH to be competitive. Dread guard is weaker than recruit for the most part for PvP. For PvE, EWH falls somewhere between Rakata and BH (some argue its equivalent of BH), which means almost all PvE content is available wearing PvP gear, while PvP content is not available at all wearing top PvE gear. Funny how OP makes it seem like its the other way around.

 

I believe that max PvE gear should put you somewhere within 5-10% below Partisan gear with the bloaster in WZs. Will see how that works out.

[ArchangelLBC]

I'm pretty sure that BW knew what the situation was when thinking of this bolster. Just making things unfair and then blaming the players for not playing enough ranked wz is not the right way to go.

Though, if I will be able to do all sm ops (and find groups for them with no trouble at all), it kind of makes it up to me. Since that's what pve-players can do with pvp.

 

In the sense that you can queue for a random SM OP, wearing whatever you want, and no one can stop you, this is the case. And since those will be doable in 63s and 61s, you'll be fine in your PVP gear. Whether or not the group your with is smart enough to realize when gear matters and when it doesn't is a horse of a different color of course.

 

It may be BW's fault for not trying to incentivize ranked warzones, but the fact is ranked queues don't pop because people aren't signing up. People don't PUG them because when they do they get crushed, and no one likes getting crushed.

 

On the other hand I don't see a lot of people forming full PUGs for HM TFB or NiM EC either.

 

Like I said, I'm not saying they aren't different. Let me go further and say that BW absolutely should do things to encourage more ranked play. I put up a suggestion today which, while not fully fleshed out, is something I know for a fact they could implement, at least as a stop gap until they get cross server figured out (if they ever bother to get cross server figured out which they absolutely should).

 

All I'm saying is that if there is a problem with fairness, it isn't due to bolster.

[Totaltrash]

In the sense that you can queue for a random SM OP, wearing whatever you want, and no one can stop you, this is the case.

 

Well, you know that is simply not true and also perfect example of yet another inequality Bioware has created:

 

You queue in bad gear for OPS, you get kicked and cannot ruin the ops.

You queue in bad gear for WZ, you can't get kicked and are free to ruin a warzone.

 

Groupfinder allows PVEers to kick people for any reason, good or bad.

Warzone queues do not give you that choice at all.

Unlike groupfinder, even people on your ignore list can be matched into your warzone team.

[ArchangelLBC]

Well, you know that is simply not true and also perfect example of yet another inequality Bioware has created:

 

You queue in bad gear for OPS, you get kicked and cannot ruin the ops.

You queue in bad gear for WZ, you can't get kicked and are free to ruin a warzone.

 

Groupfinder allows PVEers to kick people for any reason, good or bad.

Warzone queues do not give you that choice at all.

Unlike groupfinder, even people on your ignore list can be matched into your warzone team.

 

You can institute a vote to kick at the start of a warzone. I've never actually seen anyone kicked a priori just because of gear from a SM ops, but I don't do a lot of queuing for that.

 

Either way, that's still not an inequality based on bolster.

[Tragamite]

I am not sure were the OP is getting his information. The the bloaster at level 55 is will give people in PvE gear some expertise so they would not be eaten alive. It is still weaker than PvP gear.

 

For the accessibility of the game, end game PvP requires minimum BiS WH to be competitive. Dread guard is weaker than recruit for the most part for PvP. For PvE, EWH falls somewhere between Rakata and BH (some argue its equivalent of BH), which means almost all PvE content is available wearing PvP gear, while PvP content is not available at all wearing top PvE gear. Funny how OP makes it seem like its the other way around.

 

I believe that max PvE gear should put you somewhere within 5-10% below Partisan gear with the bloaster in WZs. Will see how that works out.

 

Campaign gear currently is completely viable for PvP better than recruit but below WH. EWH can only be used somewhat effectively in SM Ops not in HM+ unless everyone else is BiS PvE gear.

 

PvE gear in 2.0 will be equal to current WH gear while WH will be slightly better then it is now.

 

There is NO equivalent opportunity for someone who currently has Tionese gear to compete in HM's+ especially in new content yet a PvE'er can compete in the new PvP content no prob.

[Ottoattack]

Just a quick comparison between PvE and PvP gear. I was comparing my sorc healer output in EWH with top healers for PvE with full dread guard. When I am specked full corruption, my bonus to healing is 711 with 36% critic and 76% surge. The highest sorc healer I saw in top PvE gear, had lower 800s bonus to healing while maintaining 35% critic and 75% surge. The difference is 12-18% between full BiS dread guard and EWH. I have 2 PvE mod able parts in my gear. My expertise is 1314.

 

I did the same comparison on my PT, and the highest PvE geared PT I saw had around 10% dps higher than me. Again, I have 2 mod able PvE pieces and my expertise is 1,305.

 

At 1,300 expertise, bonus to damage is 24%, damage reduction is around 22% and bonus healing is around 19%. The difference between EWH and DG is around 50-60% in WZs. The difference between EWH and DG is around 12-18% for PvE.

[ArchangelLBC]

Campaign gear currently is completely viable for PvP better than recruit but below WH. EWH can only be used somewhat effectively in SM Ops not in HM+ unless everyone else is BiS PvE gear.

 

PvE gear in 2.0 will be equal to current WH gear while WH will be slightly better then it is now.

 

There is NO equivalent opportunity for someone who currently has Tionese gear to compete in HM's+ especially in new content yet a PvE'er can compete in the new PvP content no prob.

 

EWH can only be used somewhat effectively in SM Ops? What are you smoking?

 

Campaign gear is currently completely viable for PVP?

 

What is this I don't even....

[Ottoattack]

Campaign gear currently is completely viable for PvP better than recruit but below WH. EWH can only be used somewhat effectively in SM Ops not in HM+ unless everyone else is BiS PvE gear.

 

PvE gear in 2.0 will be equal to current WH gear while WH will be slightly better then it is now.

 

There is NO equivalent opportunity for someone who currently has Tionese gear to compete in HM's+ especially in new content yet a PvE'er can compete in the new PvP content no prob.

 

Why would EWH not be effective in HM Ops (EV and KP)? HM is doable in columni. EWH is better than Rakat. WH is close to rakata. How long will it take you to get camping/bh? 6-8 weeks? How long for WH? 2 days? Again, most PvP gear will include some high end PvE pieces.

 

What most people do not realize for dps and healers, most of the damage/healing come from the hilt/barrel not from stats. Starting PvP gear (not the free gear) is 146 hilt, which automatically drives your damage/healing with mediocre stats above columni. In my experience, people in PvE gear run about 300-350 more main stats than PvP gear. Each point stats will give 0.2 damage. At 400 bonus stats, DG will run 80 more damage than PvP gear.

[SlimsPicken]

Since they are effectively giving away expertise for free, i dont see any need for it at all.

 

Might as well just have PVE gear, and everyone pvps naked with bolster.

 

so, basically they broke down the gear wall for PVE-> PVP, but left a massive gear wall in the other direction...

 

so a PVE player can step right in and be on decently equal footing in WZs, but the PvP player sure cant do OPs without grinding gear.

 

I think its fair to ask for a PVE bolster effect for OPs. I want to strip naked and run some 16M nightmare.

[Tragamite]

EWH can only be used somewhat effectively in SM Ops? What are you smoking?

 

Campaign gear is currently completely viable for PVP?

 

What is this I don't even....

 

Not smoking nothing it is experience talking. A group of columi geared people with one or two EWH geared will not produce the same outcome as a group in just columi gear. Base stats are lessened on PvP gear for expertise. This hurts PvP gear in PvE content since expertise has no effectiveness. Base stats are higher on PvE gear making higher end gear completely viable in PvP.

 

If you look and compare actual stats on gear as purchased EHW is comparable to Rakata+ while this seems good for PvE they do not equal out. And using PvP gear with an under geared group for HM+ will be a challenge greater than a player in top end PvE gear with under geared PvP'ers as long as everyone else has expertise.

 

A full PvP geared group would struggle in a HM ops. A full group of PvE geared players would struggle in PvP vs a PvP geared group. Skills aside just matching gear in its alternate style the boosted stats on PvE gear give the advantage of use in PvP vs PvP gear in PvE content.

 

If you doubt this put your PvP gear on and attack a PvE mob. Then put your PvE gear on and attack a similar mob and measure the results.

[ObiWanJabroni]

I might have a unique situation, but this does effect me.

 

I'm basically a PVP'er in a PVE guild. Long story short, I can't sub for a raider now if they need someone. It effects my guild more then me tbh, because I hate ops. They bore me. But I'm attached to my guild...They are a good bunch of people and I hate that I can't help them when they need it.

 

 

As far as the PVP side of this goes, I could care less. The PVE'ers I love killing the most are the combat sentinels. I giggle as I imagine them fiddling with their buttons while they get nuked, and that isn't going to change with the new bolster system. The bad ones will still be bad. The good ones probably all ready have PVP gear.

 

Mark my words though, this isn't going to make PVP better, it will make it worse. Having PVE'ers in warzones will be just as annoying as having PVP'ers that don't know PVE content in ops. It will be short lived too. Most will **** tuck and run two weeks in, and the end result will be nothing but a further sequestering of two vastly different MMO communities, and even less people enjoying everything the game has to offer. Good God, I'd hate to be a player on a PVP server that likes to do the occasional op and uses the group finder...LMAO

[Nodulo]

It feels like they are pushing pvp'ers as in the "regulars" people who do alot of it to do RWZ's. The state of the current RWZ is the equal of a ghost town.

 

In a ranked WZ without allocating time, commitment, group composition and a regular body of folks you are bound to lose. I fail to see "hard core raiders" putting such attention into this and if some do, heck maybe they become one of us and stop raiding so much and instead turn to pvp for their fix.

 

Just a thought.

[ObiWanJabroni]

Since they are effectively giving away expertise for free, i dont see any need for it at all.

 

Might as well just have PVE gear, and everyone pvps naked with bolster.

 

so, basically they broke down the gear wall for PVE-> PVP, but left a massive gear wall in the other direction...

 

so a PVE player can step right in and be on decently equal footing in WZs, but the PvP player sure cant do OPs without grinding gear.

 

I think its fair to ask for a PVE bolster effect for OPs. I want to strip naked and run some 16M nightmare.

 

To be honest, the only reason to DO ops until you vomit is to get the gear in the first place. Why else do they repeat the same thing over and over ad nauseam? That's what that part of the game is about. But you know that, you are just being sarcastic. And I get it. It is a bit of a slap in the face to PVP'ers.

 

Truth is though, BW went out of its way before this game was even on shelves to stress the PVE and story was the main focus of this game. I knew that going in. Accept that truth and you'll be a lot happier.

[ArchangelLBC]

Not smoking nothing it is experience talking. A group of columi geared people with one or two EWH geared will not produce the same outcome as a group in just columi gear. Base stats are lessened on PvP gear for expertise. This hurts PvP gear in PvE content since expertise has no effectiveness. Base stats are higher on PvE gear making higher end gear completely viable in PvP.

 

If you look and compare actual stats on gear as purchased EHW is comparable to Rakata+ while this seems good for PvE they do not equal out. And using PvP gear with an under geared group for HM+ will be a challenge greater than a player in top end PvE gear with under geared PvP'ers as long as everyone else has expertise.

 

A full PvP geared group would struggle in a HM ops. A full group of PvE geared players would struggle in PvP vs a PvP geared group. Skills aside just matching gear in its alternate style the boosted stats on PvE gear give the advantage of use in PvP vs PvP gear in PvE content.

 

If you doubt this put your PvP gear on and attack a PvE mob. Then put your PvE gear on and attack a similar mob and measure the results.

 

 

A full PVP geared group should struggle in a HM ops (current highest tier). A full group of PVE geared players will get destroyed in a warzone against a PVP geared group.

 

But if you can't clear SM ops with ease in full EWH then you're doing it wrong. Even HM EV/KP should be cleared pretty easily by a good group in EWH. I'm perfectly well aware PVP gear has lowered stats to account for expertise. It isn't that much less, especially if you just replace your crystals with power ones (which in the current meta most people are doing anyway).

 

Since they are effectively giving away expertise for free, i dont see any need for it at all.

 

Might as well just have PVE gear, and everyone pvps naked with bolster.

 

so, basically they broke down the gear wall for PVE-> PVP, but left a massive gear wall in the other direction...

 

so a PVE player can step right in and be on decently equal footing in WZs, but the PvP player sure cant do OPs without grinding gear.

 

I think its fair to ask for a PVE bolster effect for OPs. I want to strip naked and run some 16M nightmare.

 

Right because you're totally gonna be running competitive ranked naked. Guess you didn't bother to read the thread?