Time to scratch advanced classes.

[genesiser]

This is something that has bugged me ever since the game got released. Why have "advanced classes" in the game? All it does is give the illusion that there are only four classes to choose from, when in reality, there are eight. Think about it, a smuggler scoundrel is a totally different class than a smuggler gunslinger - one is ranged, the other is melee. As a result of the current system, people tend to think that we need an advanced class change option because it's base class is the same, but that would be like playing a different mmo and having the option of changing your rogue into a hunter.

 

So instead of having to wait until level 10 to choose your real class, let us choose our real class at level one. Instead of having the class option at 10, just have the skill trees open up. When choosing your class, just have it say, "This class shares a story with this other class." Another thing is when in warzones on the scoreboard, separate the advanced classes so that instead of seeing say 6 smugglers, it would instead show 3 gunslingers and 3 scoundrels so it doesn't feel like everyone is playing the same thing.

 

In the end, getting rid of advanced classes and just have them be separate classes would show people that there are more choices and diversity than it currently feels like. While it wouldn't actually change the game in a drastic way in terms of gameplay, it would change the perception of the game - and as many know, perception is reality.

[itsmymillertime]

I wouldnt mind having the pvp scoreboard show which ac everyone was, but since each advanced class shares alot of the same abilities with each other, all your changing is one planet worth of leveling where there is no difference between advanced classes because there not any advanced classes.

 

Current system is fine. 1st planet is for learning.

[Illyean]

not sure if it helps or not to make the choice at the very start, it would mean you only waste the first planet if you realise you got it wrong, rather than the first and second.

 

I would actually prefer to see more options for change and the devs stop thinking in fixed class terms. Better would be more points in the story to refine your specialisation but i realise that's just dreaming and not something that will ever make it into a theme park game

[MediumD]

Think about it, a smuggler scoundrel is a totally different class than a smuggler gunslinger - one is ranged, the other is melee.

 

Both ACs have the same story, armor, companions, and weapons. They share a skill tree and the same base class abilities.

 

If all the gunslinger and scoundrel abilities were purchased with skill points, wouldn't it be the same class?

 

As a result of the current system, people tend to think that we need an advanced class change option because it's base class is the same, but that would be like playing a different mmo and having the option of changing your rogue into a hunter.

 

I'd say it's more like priest to paladin. Why does that bother you, though?

[Kilora]

Both ACs have the same story, armor, companions, and weapons. They share a skill tree and the same base class abilities.

 

If all the gunslinger and scoundrel abilities were purchased with skill points, wouldn't it be the same class?

 

 

 

I'd say it's more like priest to paladin. Why does that bother you, though?

 

I don't think the priest to paladin works out --

 

Think about it. Inqusitor -- Sorcs can heal, Assasins can't. Assasins can tank, Sorcs can't.

 

In 3/4 classes, one AC can heal, the other can Tank, and there is one shared tree. I feel they would've been completely separate classes if so much wasn't duplicated. (Companions, story, armor, etc.)

[Syas]

I'd say it's more like priest to paladin. Why does that bother you, though?

Because it homogenizes classes down to 4. You won't be a Commando if you can just "re-spec" to Vanguard at anytime. At that point, you are just a Trooper.

Edited April 4, 2013 by Syas

[MediumD]

Skyrim has no classes at all. It's still a fun game and supports a lot of builds.

 

I'd be fine if SWTOR had 4 classes but supported the same number of builds as it does now. Or if it had 36 or so classes based on spec.

Edited April 4, 2013 by MediumD

[MediumD]

I don't think the priest to paladin works out --

 

Think about it. Inqusitor -- Sorcs can heal, Assasins can't. Assasins can tank, Sorcs can't.

 

I'm not sure where you're going with that. The ability to heal or tank or dps doesn't necessary generate a new class. A druid in WoW can do all three.

 

In 3/4 classes, one AC can heal, the other can Tank, and there is one shared tree. I feel they would've been completely separate classes if so much wasn't duplicated. (Companions, story, armor, etc.)

 

I suggest it might've gone the other way--3 or 4 base classes. Then skill trees became overspecialized and drifted into the ACs we have now.

Edited April 4, 2013 by MediumD

[Illyean]

the 4 base class with 8 advanced class model with 5 different skills trees and 1 shared tree model is ok but it was probably better to go all in one way or the other, 8 different classes or 4 with more skill tree options.

 

I favour more options not fewer, more depth not less, greater sophistication but not at the expense of complexity. TBH it feels like this isn't the design they were wanting but the one they arrived at after cutting and re-evaluating. At least its not the same cluster f*^k that gearing is

[ninjonxb]

The idea of an advanced class has been growing in the MMO community. SWTOR is not the only game to implement it.

It is a way to give you an introductory lesson to the core of the class. And then you choose a specialization (aka, advanced class)

 

SWTOR chose this method most likely out of necessity. To save money and time on the story quests. If they had kept the way the story quests work now but you choose your advanced class at level 1. This could (unless there is a very well made UI attached to it) cause confusion that these 2 classes have the same story.

 

But each advanced class is drastically different from each other.

If they were to remove the advanced class it would require a drastic reworking of the class system that for many players would ruin the game. Especially people who leveled both advanced classes.

 

I don't think the advanced class system gives the illusion of only 8 classes.

Edited April 4, 2013 by ninjonxb

[Syas]

Skyrim has no classes at all. It's still a fun game and supports a lot of builds.

 

I'd be fine if SWTOR had 4 classes but supported the same number of builds as it does now. Or if it had 36 or so classes based on spec.

 

Skyrim is not an MMO. RIFT tried the "a few base classes with ton of options", and you know what happened? People were expected to follow Cookie Cutter builds to tackle content.

[hallucigenocide]

if it came along with different class story for each one it would be a great change.. i mean because some of the class stories seem way more biased towards one AC than the other and it only makes the journey confusing and less enjoyable.

[HoloTweed]

In the end, getting rid of advanced classes and just have them be separate classes would show people that there are more choices and diversity than it currently feels like. While it wouldn't actually change the game in a drastic way in terms of gameplay, it would change the perception of the game - and as many know, perception is reality.

 

Bad idea. No, let's not do that. The first levels are intended as a primer for using base powers. Letting someone choose an Advanced Class after First Planet makes infinitely more sense. Your suggestion would require Bioware to COMPLETELY redo the first 10 - 11 levels of powers for 16 "classes" - OR duplicate 10 levels of powers between two related classes, which is just busy work that could be used better.

 

So... no, bad idea, let's not do that. Not needed, not wanted, bad idea, bad bad bad.

[Kilora]

Skyrim is not an MMO. RIFT tried the "a few base classes with ton of options", and you know what happened? People were expected to follow Cookie Cutter builds to tackle content.

 

I think the "cookie cutter build" argument is unrelated to base classes. I personally think it is an inherent flaw with the way talent trees work. WoW had the same issue -- where DPS was based solely on gear and how "tight" your rotation was -- and healing basically the same, with a priority spell "rotation."

 

Without any changes to talent tree systems, I don't think we will ever truly get away from cookie cutters. But I certainly hope I'm wrong! :-D

[ninjonxb]

I think the "cookie cutter build" argument is unrelated to base classes. I personally think it is an inherent flaw with the way talent trees work. WoW had the same issue -- where DPS was based solely on gear and how "tight" your rotation was -- and healing basically the same, with a priority spell "rotation."

 

Without any changes to talent tree systems, I don't think we will ever truly get away from cookie cutters. But I certainly hope I'm wrong! :-D

 

I am still under the impression that we just need to cut the whole talent system. (by we I mean MMO's not just SWTOR)

Just have your advanced class (which is permanent)

and choose 1 of 3 "trees" and that is it.

No one is ever going to make a system that ultimately does not have a "required" tree. There are always going to be oversights that throw balance out the window.

[Andryah]

As a result of the current system, people tend to think that we need an advanced class change option

 

Actually... the only reason for people demanding this is because they feel self-entitled to demand what they want in an MMO. When the fact is.... the only way to get exactly what you want in an MMO is if you design it and maintain it yourself.

 

The very nature of games with large player bases is that players have different wants and feelings of entitlement to said wants simply because they paid for the product. It's an irrational outlook (which does not apply to anything else in the consumer world, not even "build your own salad" bars).... but hey.. the internet is an irrational place by virtue of being populated by irrational thinkers and demanders.

 

What say we just lt the people who actually own and maintain this MMO decide what/what_not to offer it's player base?

Edited April 4, 2013 by Andryah

[Andryah]

I am still under the impression that we just need to cut the whole talent system. (by we I mean MMO's not just SWTOR)

Just have your advanced class (which is permanent)

and choose 1 of 3 "trees" and that is it.

No one is ever going to make a system that ultimately does not have a "required" tree. There are always going to be oversights that throw balance out the window.

 

Two comments:

 

1) "required" is something dictated by the players... mostly min-maxers and exlusionists (which want the MMO their way... or else)

 

2) People want more freedom of choice, not less. So you suggestion removes degrees of freedom for players... players that are very often looking to differentiate themselves from other players in an MMO environment.

[ninjonxb]

Two comments:

 

1) "required" is something dictated by the players... mostly min-maxers and exlusionists (which want the MMO their way... or else)

 

2) People want more freedom of choice, not less. So you suggestion removes degrees of freedom for players... players that are very often looking to differentiate themselves from other players in an MMO environment.

 

While I agree with you on choice.

In an MMO it is an illusion if you plan to do any endgame content.

 

Remove the choice of the tree would make it that much easier to actually balance the classes.

 

Maybe by taking the tree out they can expand each advanced class with 1 or 2 more options.

 

I think this happening is inevitable. WoW has been going this way. They started with Cata restricting you to one tree. Then in MoP they simplified the tree to a trivial amount.

 

I am not saying we need to follow WoW's example, I am just saying that the idea of a talent system in an MMO is flawed. They came about from MMO's taking aspects of their parent (RPG's). Most RPG's have some sort of talent system. This system works in single players because as long as each class is playable and there is not a drastic balance issue no one cares about balance.

In MMO's people care a lot.

Edited April 4, 2013 by ninjonxb