The BattleZone! Round 1 Match 03: Lord Vitiate vs. Darth Plagueis

[marcelo_sdk]

Read Dark Empire. That's all I can tell you. Or you can just check out his wookiee page.

 

I read all things about Palpatine, I know that he's immensely powerful, I just don't agree with your logic. The ways you say, sounds like everyone could do a ritual and kill everyone. I just evaluate Palpatine like you did with Vitiate, using his feats as a base to determine his power.

[Aurbere]

I read all things about Palpatine, I know that he's immensely powerful, I just don't agree with your logic. The ways you say, sounds like everyone could do a ritual and kill everyone. I just evaluate Palpatine like you did with Vitiate, using his feats as a base to determine his power.

 

But the thing is, Palpatine did all of his most incredible feats through his own power. The same can't be said for Vitiate.

 

But this isn't the time or the place to discuss Palpatine vs. Vitiate (by the way, this question has been answered).

[marcelo_sdk]

Out of curiosity, what were the first two duels and who won them?

[Aurbere]

Out of curiosity, what were the first two duels and who won them?

 

The first two duels were Vodo-Siosk Baas vs. Master Thon (Thon won), and Darth Malak vs. Darth Nyriss (Nyriss won).

 

If you want to see all of the characters that will be participating, visit this thread.

 

However, I think I will change out two of them, that haven't seen action, in favor of more developed characters.

[EpicJaisonLord]

Definitely Plagueis.

[marcelo_sdk]

Well, I voted for Vitiate, but I see Plagueis will have the victory. Each side has it's reasons, so whoever wins, I think it will be done justice.

[Selenial]

Defeating a crippled Mace Windu, who kicked his *** before

 

Oh god.... Please tell me you didnt say that.

That argument cannot be used, as it is widely considered that he threw the duel, otherwise turning Anakin to the Darkside would have been much harder.

He wanted skywalker to see the Darkness in jedi, even leading jedi, and that is a lot easier to bring out in Windu due to Vapaad.

 

But i digress, until we know, we dont.

[Beniboybling]

I think we're starting to go around in circles here, so maybe it's time to call it. However I will respond to a few points.

 

 

• Revan was a formidable lightsaber duelist, and yet he lacked what Plagueis has: speed. He couldn't close the gap fast enough and was instead forced to power through. Plagueis on the other hand would have taken the two opportunities in which Vitiate was knocked down (which is proof that he can be knocked down both by powerful attacks and his own lightning) closed the distance and bested him in lightsaber combat. I also only used the example of atmoisation as an example of how powerful the waves were, enough to knock Vitiate down.
   
   
  
• People continue to stress that Vitiate is just BAMF but ignore the fact that he cannot overpower what he cannot hit. I am not saying Plagueis is more powerful than Vitiate, I am saying this will not come down to a contest of power, but speed.
   
   
  
• It is obvious that when Vitiate destroyed the DC, it was through ritual and preparation. Otherwise he would have done the same with the Hero of Tython and Revan. The same applies for TK, he never threw Revan and the Hero of Tython around like rag dolls. Just because he is immensely powerful does not mean we can ascribe any and all abilities to them, he is not like Darth Vader who had a remarkable proficiency with TK. And the fact of the matter is he cannot break through Plagueis' Force resistance without weakening him first. And again even if he could Plagueis is simply moving too fast. I cannot stress this enough, Plagueis is not going to simply rush Vitiate, he'll first stun him and use that time to close the gap. This would give Vitiate no time to react, making his Force powers moot. Refer to my scenario.
   
   
  
• Mind control is an attack, not some constant presence. Vitiate cannot use mind control and fight Plagueis simultaneously. In his duel with Revan for example Vitiate attacked Plagueis with mind control, the attack failed because Revan resisted and interrupted it, and it ended there. In this sense mind control would not be a constant limiter to his abilities, Plagueis merely needs to resist it or interrupt it and will be free from its influence. And given Plagueis' proficiency with both Force waves and telepathy, I have no doubt he can achieve this, also as I mentioned before it relies on the dark side to erode one's will, something that Plagueis' emmersion in the dark side would nullify. Another power rendered useless. Also note that given his skill with telepathy, he would likely be aware of any attempts by Vitiate to read his mind and be able erect a natural defense. Also note that that too would require concentration on Vitiate's part.
   
   
  
• Hoech, I think you have misunderstood telekinesis for telepathy. The former is the manipulation of objects, the latter the manipulation of minds. I challenge you to find evidence of Vitiate's so called mastery of TK. You will find none, it is clearly not an ability he favoured as he has never used it before. He'd have to have Vader's skill in TK tripled to break through the defences of an exceptionally powerful Force user like Plagueis, who will not be distracted by mental attacks, and Vitiate would not have the time to perform such an attack either way.
   
   
  
• Evidence of Plagueis power? Well he achieved gosh darn immortality for one and was master to the most powerful Sith Lord in galactic history who would no doubt school Vitiate in just about everything. Also note that at the time of death his powers were near equal to that of Sidious'. I am not saying he is more powerful than Vitiate, but give him credit. Just because he wasn't rushing about bashing Jedi Council members and the like doesn't make him weak. After all it is the nature of the Rule of Two to remain in the shadows.

 

I don't feel anyone has of yet disputed my scenario which despite all the arguments made, still stands. Plagueis posesses the speed to evade Vitiate's attacks, the power to knock him back and dispel his illusions, the will to resist mental attacks, the intelligence to avoid powering through and the skill to best Vitiate in a lightsaber duel. I remain confident that Plagueis will achieve victory.

Edited April 7, 2013 by Beniboybling

[Darkondo]

I think we're starting to go around in circles here, so maybe it's time to call it. However I will respond to a few points.

 

 

• Revan was a formidable lightsaber duelist, and yet he lacked what Plagueis has: speed. He couldn't close the gap fast enough and was instead forced to power through. Plagueis on the other hand would have taken the two opportunities in which Vitiate was knocked down (which is proof that he can be knocked down both by powerful attacks and his own lightning) closed the distance and bested him in lightsaber combat. I also only used the example of atmoisation as an example of how powerful the waves were, enough to knock Vitiate down.
   
   
  
• People continue to stress that Vitiate is just BAMF but ignore the fact that he cannot overpower what he cannot hit. I am not saying Plagueis is more powerful than Vitiate, I am saying this will not come down to a contest of power, but speed.
   
   
  
• It is obvious that when Vitiate destroyed the DC, it was through ritual and preparation. Otherwise he would have done the same with the Hero of Tython and Revan. The same applies for TK, he never threw Revan and the Hero of Tython around like rag dolls. Just because he is immensely powerful does not mean we can ascribe any and all abilities to them, he is not like Darth Vader who had a remarkable proficiency with TK. And the fact of the matter is he cannot break through Plagueis' Force resistance without weakening him first. And again even if he could Plagueis is simply moving too fast. I cannot stress this enough, Plagueis is not going to simply rush Vitiate, he'll first stun him and use that time to close the gap. This would give Vitiate no time to react, making his Force powers moot. Refer to my scenario.
   
   
  
• Mind control is an attack, not some constant presence. Vitiate cannot use mind control and fight Plagueis simultaneously. In his duel with Revan for example Vitiate attacked Plagueis with mind control, the attack failed because Revan resisted and interrupted it, and it ended there. In this sense mind control with not be a constant limiter to his abilities, Plagueis merely needs to resist it or interrupt it and will be free from its influence. And given Plagueis' proficiency with both Force waves and telepathy, I have no doubt he can achieve this, also as I mentioned before it relies on the dark side to erode one's will, something that Plagueis' emmersion in the dark side would nullify. Another power rendered useless. Also note that given his skill with telepathy, he would likely be aware of any attempts by Vitiate to read his mind and be able erect a natural defense. Also note that that too would require concentration on Vitiate's part.
   
   
  
• Hoech, I think you have misunderstood telekinesis for telepathy. The former is the manipulation of objects, the latter the manipulation of minds. I challenge you to find evidence of Vitiate's so called mastery of TK. You will find none, it is clearly not an ability he favoured as he has never used it before. He'd have to have Vader's skill in TK tripled to break through the defences of an exceptionally powerful Force user like Plagueis, who will not be distracted by mental attacks, and Vitiate would not have the time to perform such an attack either way.
   
   
  
• Evidence of Plagueis power? Well he achieved gosh darn immortality for one and was master to the most powerful Sith Lord in galactic history who would no doubt school Vitiate in just about everything. Also note that at the time of death his powers were near equal to that of Sidious'. I am not saying he is more powerful than Vitiate, but give him credit. Just because he wasn't rushing about bashing Jedi Council members and the like doesn't make him weak. After all it is the nature of the Rule of Two to remain in the shadows.
   
   
  
• Curiously, nobody has disputed my scenario which despite all the arguments made, still stands. Plagueis posesses the speed to evade Vitiate's attacks, the power to knock him back and dispel his illusions, the will to resist mental attacks, the intelligence to avoid powering through and the skill to best Vitiate in a lightsaber duel. I remain confident that Plagueis will achieve victory.
  

 

Mind control IS a constant presense, (its how he awakens his children and the reason everyone that went in his presense to fight him as a kid went mad.) and the reason why the HOT had to go alone to fight the Emperor. And remember, Revan knew how to fight this mind control, Plagueis does not so hel need spend more energy fightning it throughout the battle. The HOT became immune to this mind control due to the help of the spirit of Orgus Din. And remember no being that has ever come across Vitiate has ever been able to resist his mind control the 1st time unless they were taught how to resist it. Plagueis isn't so lucky in this department im afraid, having never dealt with this kind of ability before.

 

The 1st DC he purged through lightning, you wonder why he hadn't done those things to Revan and the HOT is because 1.) Revan outclasses the DC in power, (he easily defeated Darth Nyriss whom was one of if not the most powerful member at the time.) and 2.) The HOT was fighting either a severely weakened Emperor or the Voice.

 

Again, Vitiate was able to rip information out of his enemies mind without them even realizing it, unless he was attempting to dominate his enemies minds, they would have no knowledge that he was learning everything about them, their intentions, and strategic maneuvers in battle (and he usualy did this before attempting to dominate ones mind so there is really no way Plagueis would even realize his mind is being read til its too late.)

 

As for force speed, If Vitiate knows where Plagueis is or where hes going to go through my scenario above IDC how fast Plagueis is, he will still be hit because Vitiate knows where and what Plagueis is attempting to do before he even does it. And if he connects even once, in my scenario ive stated above his transpirator is most likely to expire.

 

Also, Plagueis also has a lack of precognitive abilities and is unaware of the heat that Vitiate's lightning produces could melt his transpirator. So, if Plagueis cant sense what Vitiate is going to do and Vitiate knows everything Plagueis is going to do before he does it, then it is inevitable that Plagueis will be hit with a stream either by a set trap or Vitiate anticipating where Plagueis will run to. And again my scenario above if he gets hit once, (blocked by sabers, tutamis, or even not defended at all) his transpirator is most likely gone

Edited April 7, 2013 by Darkondo

[Wolfninjajedi]

Question....how do we even know that Mind Control is going to affect Plagueis in any way shape or form? For what he has, Mind Control shouldn't affect him at all as he knows mind games and is incredibly intelligent already(given his species). Edited April 7, 2013 by Wolfninjajedi

[Ventessel]

Question....how do we even know that Mind Control is going to affect Plagueis in any way shape or form? For what he has, Mind Control shouldn't affect him at all as he knows mind games and is incredibly intelligent already(given his species).

 

Because that makes sense, right? What part of no being ever resisting the mind control without explicit training and preparation just to face Vitiate isn't matching up for you?

 

You can't simply make up abilities for Plagueis like, "He's pretty smart, so that should make him immune to mind games."

 

Revan was a genius, and a strategic mastermind who managed to turn almost all of his Jedi to the Dark Side. That didn't help him at all the first time he faced Vitiate.

[Darkondo]

Question....how do we even know that Mind Control is going to affect Plagueis in any way shape or form? For what he has, Mind Control shouldn't affect him at all as he knows mind games and is incredibly intelligent already(given his species).

 

The sheer fact that Vitiate has dominated the minds of every being that he has attempted to with relative ease, and that no one in galactic history has ever been able to resist his mental influence the 1st time (not counting Meetra or Lord Scourge however, they were taught by Revan to resist his initial presense) however if he focused on either of Meetra or Scourge attempting to dominate their minds then he would succeed (Lord Scourge states this and is the reason why he didn't go with the HOT to face a weakened Emperor.)

 

Given this logic that no one has ever resisted it without knowing how by being subject to it at 1st, it is unlikely that Plagueis will be able to downright become immune to it, he has never dealt with it before and he has no knowledge of how to resist or become immune to it due to never being subject to it once

[Wolfninjajedi]

Because that makes sense, right? What part of no being ever resisting the mind control without explicit training and preparation just to face Vitiate isn't matching up for you?

 

You can't simply make up abilities for Plagueis like, "He's pretty smart, so that should make him immune to mind games."

 

Revan was a genius, and a strategic mastermind who managed to turn almost all of his Jedi to the Dark Side. That didn't help him at all the first time he faced Vitiate.

 

Am not making up abilities, Plagueis's species are vastly intelligent to the point the children could solve complex math problems. He also knows how to control minds too, so it isn't like he wouldn't be able to resist it.

 

But anyway I guess its moot, given Vitiate would have more things to worry about.

Edited April 7, 2013 by Wolfninjajedi

[Beniboybling]

Mind control IS a constant presense, (its how he awakens his children and the reason everyone that went in his presense to fight him as a kid went mad.) and the reason why the HOT had to go alone to fight the Emperor. And remember, Revan knew how to fight this mind control, Plagueis does not so hel need spend more energy fightning it throughout the battle. The HOT became immune to this mind control due to the help of the spirit of Orgus Din. And remember no being that has ever come across Vitiate has ever been able to resist his mind control the 1st time unless they were taught how to resist it.

 

The 1st DC he purged through lightning, you wonder why he hadn't done those things to Revan and the HOT is because 1.) Revan outclasses the DC in power, (he easily defeated Darth Nyriss whom was one of if not the most powerful member at the time.) and 2.) The HOT was fighting either a severely weakened Emperor or the Voice.

 

Again, Vitiate was able to rip information out of his enemies mind without them even realizing it, unless he was attempting to dominate his enemies minds, they would have no knowledge that he was learning everything about them, their intentions, and strategic maneuvers in battle (and he usualy did this before attempting to dominate ones mind so there is really no way Plagueis would even realize his mind is being read til its too late.)

 

As for force speed, If Vitiate knows where Plagueis is or where hes going to go through my scenario above IDC how fast Plagueis is, he will still be hit because Vitiate knows where and what Plagueis is attempting to do before he even does it. And if he connects even once, in my scenario ive stated above his transpirator is most likely to expire.

I still disagree, with the Children he has already established a constant mental link with them. And it would seem he needs to actively possess them to take control, which likely renders him immobile. Also in all the other scenarios you presented Vitiate wasn't just exhuming mind control madness (which is impossible given the fact that telepathy involves actively reaching out to another's mind) he just attacked them with mind control. If he attempted to attack Plagueis mentally and physically simultaneously, and read Plagueis' mind and interpret this thoughts and act on them, all at the same time he'd like have a migraine and just collapse. As a human or whatever he is he simply does not possess that much brain power. Note here that as a Muun Plagueis can 'multi-task' more, lessening the effect of Vitiate's mind control even more.

 

And as I said, Plagueis is in a much better position to fight Vitiate's mind control than others have been. For example it was obvious HOT had been overwhelmed by the darkside and as such he mind had been enslaved, as he used the power of the light to overcome it. He was also unconscious. Also note Tol Braga, who had been drowned in the dark side to the pointing of becoming a willing slave, he had just given up. The same goes for Revan who was on the verge of falling to the dark side, the Emperor merely pushed him over the edge and so seized control over him. The dark side can often have such an effect, for example Sidious' control over Anakin, backed by Yoda's comment on how he had been 'twisted'. However Plagueis already embraced the dark side and achieved some measure of internal control, as such Vitiate's attempts to dominate his will through the dark side simply won't work. We also have to consider that Plagueis' skill with telepathy will be coupled with knowledge of it, he will know how to resist.

 

Revan is more powerful than than all 12 members of the DC? Sounds like fanboism to me... yes he beat Nyriss, but that's one of 12, and of a weaker incarnation. Despite this surely an attack of such magnitude would have at least weakened Revan? He could have used it on all 3 of them, and it would likely have ended the fight there and then. Remember he only defeated Revan with a conventional stream of lightning, a blast of that magnitude is far more powerful. So why didn't he use it? Because it was a ritual and required a great level of concentration and preparation. This is the Sith Emperor we're talking about here, who has had 1300 years to master Sith magic. Who has performed the most complicated ritual in history. DC storm the citadel and are destroyed in a sudden flash of light, that's not even conventional lightning, the Emperor wasn't even there. Such a display can only be explained as a Sith ritual. The maximum levels of Vitiate's power can only be achieved through preparation, in instant battle situations his abilities are severely hampered, hence why he doesn't perform nearly as well.

 

I'd like to dispute the fact that he read Tol Braga's mind. Is there any evidence that states this is the case other than the fact he knew his name and was aware he was coming? That hardly seems conclusive. And again, Plagueis is a telepath and therefore more likely to aware of any such probing, and more likely to resist it.

 

His transpirator also likely has some measure of heat resistance, and he'll likely keep any lightning engagements to a minimum. One blast will not be enough to destroy it, remembering that a lightsaber absorbs all the lightning.

 

P.S. Aurbere, if the next battle is Darth Traya, I'd as you to hold off on it. As believe it or not but I'm not actually in a position to have a sustained debate, but I should be soon. Thanks.

[Beniboybling]

Am not making up abilities, Plagueis's species are vastly intelligent to the point the children could solve complex math problems. He also knows how to control minds too, so it isn't like he wouldn't be able to resist it.

 

But anyway I guess its moot, given Vitiate would have more things to worry about.

Exactly, Plagueis has high proficiency with telepathy and Vitiate is too busy getting knocked down to sustain an effective mental attack. Edited April 7, 2013 by Beniboybling

[Aurbere]

This is a very difficult choice to make. If anyone has anymore to say, do so.

[Darkondo]

I still disagree, with the Children he has already established a constant mental link with them. And it would seem he needs to actively possess them to take control, which likely renders him immobile. Also in all the other scenarios you presented Vitiate wasn't just exhuming mind control madness (which is impossible given the fact that telepathy involves actively reaching out to another's mind) he just attacked them with mind control. If he attempted to attack Plagueis mentally and physically simultaneously, and read Plagueis' mind and interpret this thoughts and act on them, all at the same time he'd like have a migraine and just collapse. As a human or whatever he is he simply does not possess that much brain power. Note here that as a Muun Plagueis can 'multi-task' more, lessening the effect of Vitiate's mind control even more.

 

And as I said, Plagueis is in a much better position to fight Vitiate's mind control than others have been. For example it was obvious HOT had been overwhelmed by the darkside and as such he mind had been enslaved, as he used the power of the light to overcome it. He was also unconscious. Also note Tol Braga, who had been drowned in the dark side to the pointing of becoming a willing slave, he had just given up. The same goes for Revan who was on the verge of falling to the dark side, the Emperor merely pushed him over the edge and so seized control over him. The dark side can often have such an effect, for example Sidious' control over Anakin, backed by Yoda's comment on how he had been 'twisted'. However Plagueis already embraced the dark side and achieved some measure of internal control, as such Vitiate's attempts to dominate his will through the dark side simply won't work. We also have to consider that Plagueis' skill with telepathy will be coupled with knowledge of it, he will know how to resist.

 

Revan is more powerful than than all 12 members of the DC? Sounds like fanboism to me... yes he beat Nyriss, but that's one of 12, and of a weaker incarnation. Despite this surely an attack of such magnitude would have at least weakened Revan? He could have used it on all 3 of them, and it would likely have ended the fight there and then. Remember he only defeated Revan with a conventional stream of lightning, a blast of that magnitude is far more powerful. So why didn't he use it? Because it was a ritual and required a great level of concentration and preparation. This is the Sith Emperor we're talking about here, who has had 1300 years to master Sith magic. Who has performed the most complicated ritual in history. DC storm the citadel and are destroyed in a sudden flash of light, that's not even conventional lightning, the Emperor wasn't even there. Such a display can only be explained as a Sith ritual. The maximum levels of Vitiate's power can only be achieved through preparation, in instant battle situations his abilities are severely hampered, hence why he doesn't perform nearly as well.

 

I'd like to dispute the fact that he read Tol Braga's mind. Is there any evidence that states this is the case other than the fact he knew his name and was aware he was coming? That hardly seems conclusive. And again, Plagueis is a telepath and therefore more likely to aware of any such probing, and more likely to resist it.

 

His transpirator also likely has some measure of heat resistance, and he'll likely keep any lightning engagements to a minimum. One blast will not be enough to destroy it, remembering that a lightsaber absorbs all the lightning.

 

P.S. Aurbere, if the next battle is Darth Traya, I'd as you to hold off on it. As believe it or not but I'm not actually in a position to have a sustained debate, but I should be soon. Thanks.

 

For one there is NO evidence to suggest that the DC during Revan's time was a weaker incarnation than the DC now, as there is no evidence to suggest that the sith start improving themselves till the Rule of Two, in fact after Vitiate's time they actually decline in power. 2nd the DC also didn't see him coming, they weren't suspecting Vitiate to destroy them all, do not confuse my statement with fanboyism, the DC wasn't prepared for Vitiate to attack them, Revan was. Do not forget he could also dominate the DC's minds.

 

You say Vitiate cant multitask while hes using mind control I respectfully disagree. Remember after Vitiate absorbed the power and spirits of all the sith lords on Nathema. Everytime he spoke it was like multiple sith lords were speaking (stated by Revan). From this statement it sounds like Vitiate could multitask if he has the spirits of thousands of sith lords inside of him. Also he dominated the minds of those on Nathema to complete his ritual BEFORE id like to say this again, BEFORE he completed his ritual and became immortal.

 

As for Tol Braga, rewatch what hes saying to him and I quote.

"An infantile display Tol Braga. Reckless pride coupled with self-righteous abandon, you are master of nothing."

 

From this statement, it is very clear that Vitiate knows the name and intentions of Tol Braga not just he was aware that he was coming. When you rule out the impossible the rest must be true. Since, there is no other evidence or way to explain how he could have known Tol Braga's intentions as well as his emotions driving him (and look all you may, there is none) then mind reading must be true.

 

Knowledge and skill with telepathy =/= practical experience of how to resist Vitiate's mind control, hes never dealt with that kind of power before, hes never had a being attempt to control his mind, a being who has never failed in controlling whatever mind he chooses the 1st time. Also he may have knowledge about mind probing, but hes never had anyone actually attempt it on him, therefore hes less likely to be aware of it if hes never dealt with it before.

 

A lightsaber absorbs lightning, it does NOT absorb the heat generating from the lightning. That same heat would be enough to melt Plagueis's transpirator just as it melted Revan's mask.

[Darkondo]

Am not making up abilities, Plagueis's species are vastly intelligent to the point the children could solve complex math problems. He also knows how to control minds too, so it isn't like he wouldn't be able to resist it.

 

But anyway I guess its moot, given Vitiate would have more things to worry about.

 

Im not saying he wouldn't be able to resist it, im saying that It will bother him, hes never dealt with mind control as powerful as Vitiate's is and hes never had anyone as powerful as Vitiate attempt to probe his mind, and given the fact that Vitiate has never failed the 1st time, its very unlikely that Plagueis would be completely immune to this, being a Muun or not.

[marcelo_sdk]

Exactly, Plagueis has high proficiency with telepathy and Vitiate is too busy getting knocked down to sustain an effective mental attack.

 

I just don't get why he would be too busy to sustain a mental attack. If he could with Revan, Malak, Tol Braga, HoT, why with Plagueis would be so untouchable? I really think you guys are seeing Plagueis more like the godlike being from Sidious lttle history than the real being. He was more powerful than all guys I said above, perhaps, probably, but he's not so more powerful, that's what I'm trying to say.

[Darkondo]

My final address on certain points

 

If Vitiate's lightning connects in anyway via. tutamis, lightsabers, or just not defending it at all, then Vitiate will win as the heat of the lightning would melt his transpirator. And any changeup to a force wave would leave him susceptible to lightning.

 

The only chance Plagueis has is force speed and due to a lack of precognitive abilities, makes him even more cautious and less likely to actually attack Vitiate head on.

 

If Vitiate is successful via. mind probing, which I believe he would be so then he would know all of Plagueis's strength's, weaknesses, and what hes going to do next which Plagueis wont be aware that hes being set up due to no precognition.

 

Vitiate's mind control ive analyzed has 2 things to it. 1.) subconscious corrupting influence and 2.) actual mind control (Ik this isn't canon, but im using these 2 phases to attempt to describe how his mind control seems to work, if im wrong tell me so and give a layed out reason why, don't just tell me im wrong or accuse me or fanboism)

 

1.) his CI which seems to be a presense that has an affect on all of those surrounding him with no effort. Lord Scourge and Meetra Surik were taught to resist this initial presense, however Scourge states that he wouldn't be able to resist Vitiate's actual mind control which leads to the 2nd phase

 

2.) his actual Mind control which he puts effort into to dominate the minds of whomever he chooses, (this can only be resisted by those immensely strong in the force, and/or by those whom have experienced this kind of dominance before) this kind can also be interrupted by force wave or any other power while his CI remains as long as he is alive

 

This being said, his CI would be bothering Plagueis throughout the entire fight (however slight). Plagueis's "counters" to Vitiate as they are called are only for the most pt. minor resistances to a larger, more overwhelming opposition. Thus I stand by my point, that Vitiate simply has too much for even Plagueis's speed to overcome.

Edited April 7, 2013 by Darkondo

[Selenial]

You say Vitiate cant multitask while hes using mind control I respectfully disagree. Remember after Vitiate absorbed the power and spirits of all the sith lords on Nathema. Everytime he spoke it was like multiple sith lords were speaking (stated by Revan). From this statement it sounds like Vitiate could multitask if he has the spirits of thousands of sith lords inside of him. Also he dominated the minds of those on Nathema to complete his ritual BEFORE id like to say this again, BEFORE he completed his ritual and became immortal.

 

As for Tol Braga, rewatch what hes saying to him and I quote.

"An infantile display Tol Braga. Reckless pride coupled with self-righteous abandon, you are master of nothing."

 

From this statement, it is very clear that Vitiate knows the name and intentions of Tol Braga not just he was aware that he was coming. When you rule out the impossible the rest must be true. Since, there is no other evidence or way to explain how he could have known Tol Braga's intentions as well as his emotions driving him (and look all you may, there is none) then mind reading must be true.

 

A lightsaber absorbs lightning, it does NOT absorb the heat generating from the lightning. That same heat would be enough to melt Plagueis's transpirator just as it melted Revan's mask.

Couple points I'd like to throw in here.

Your first point is a massive presumption. You are presuming, just because he has a voice that sounds like many, that he can multitask.... To be honest I'm not sure how you have jumped to this conclusion, simply from his voice >.> it doesn't make much sense to me, care to elaborate?

 

Also, all this proves really is he knew too braga's name. And what kind of emperor doesn't know the names of the Jedi Council opposing him?

Besides, sensing the emotions running through a person =/= mind reading. And if he couldn't realise too bragas intentions when he was standing in his throne room with a saber drawn, fighting through waves of lightning, he would not be emperor :L

Edited April 7, 2013 by Selenial

[Darkondo]

Couple points I'd like to throw in here.

Your first point is a massive presumption. You are presuming, just because he has a voice that sounds like many, that he can multitask.... To be honest I'm not sure how you have jumped to this conclusion, simply from his voice >.> it doesn't make much sense to me, care to elaborate?

 

Also, all this proves really is he knew too braga's name. And what kind of emperor doesn't know the names of the Jedi Council opposing him?

Besides, sensing the emotions running through a person =/= mind reading. And if he couldn't realise too bragas intentions when he was standing in his throne room with a saber drawn, fighting through waves of lightning, he would not be emperor :L

 

What im saying is that Vitiate absorbed the spirits of thousands of sith lords, it is not far fetched to presume that these thousand spirits are all part of what make up Vitiate simply because they are. Vitiate's spirit is really thousands of spirits driven by 1 goal, the complete consumption and annihilation of all life in the galaxy. Its not hard to multitask if what makes up you, is thousands of spirits, see my logic?

 

This also brings the point of not knowing all the members of the jedi council's name. Simply put, he does not care, this entire war he does not care which side wins, he plans to consume all of them in the long run so it doesn't matter to him, as long as he gets enough simultaneous deaths to start up his ritual to consume the entire galaxy.

 

And he spoke to Braga before unleashing his storm and before Braga unsheathed his lightsaber, he knew that the jedi strike team was planning to board his space station and that they were attempting to capture and redeem him to the light before they even docked (Kira even knew that the emperor knew this and that they were doomed from the start)

[Selenial]

What im saying is that Vitiate absorbed the spirits of thousands of sith lords, it is not far fetched to presume that these thousand spirits are all part of what make up Vitiate simply because they are. Vitiate's spirit is really thousands of spirits driven by 1 goal, the complete consumption and annihilation of all life in the galaxy. Its not hard to multitask if what makes up you, is thousands of spirits, see my logic?

 

This also brings the point of not knowing all the members of the jedi council's name. Simply put, he does not care, this entire war he does not care which side wins, he plans to consume all of them in the long run so it doesn't matter to him, as long as he gets enough simultaneous deaths to start up his ritual to consume the entire galaxy.

 

And he spoke to Braga before unleashing his storm and before Braga unsheathed his lightsaber, he knew that the jedi strike team was planning to board his space station and that they were attempting to capture and redeem him to the light before they even docked (Kira even knew that the emperor knew this and that they were doomed from the start)

 

Wasnt Kira cut off from him at the end of act one?

And even if he does not care,he cares about his life. He would know there would be attempts at his life, he would make himself familiar with every single threat.

[Darkondo]

Wasnt Kira cut off from him at the end of act one?

And even if he does not care,he cares about his life. He would know there would be attempts at his life, he would make himself familiar with every single threat.

 

He countered this by hiding his real body God knows where and began to use a Voice (a host for his spirit to use) to carry out his orders as a response to Revan's attack on him. This Voice only holds a fraction of his true power and if it dies his essense will just transfer into another host, another Voice. So, he didn't need to care if there would be attempts on his life, if his Voice did fall to an assassination attempt, his essense would just transfer to another host, his true body is a Sith Pureblood btw, while the body shown in Act 3 was human.

 

He does care about his life, however his life is unaffected if the Voice he is using expires. This is one of my main arguments concerning the JK only beating the Voice and not the real Emperor. Vitiate during his entire fight with the HOT didn't care whether the Hero were to beat him or not, where as his fight with Revan, he feared for his life.

 

While Kira was cut off from the Emperor, she still knew how his mind worked, how he was just quiet and she felt that they were doomed the moment they landed on the space station.

[marcelo_sdk]

Darkondo just brought up what I was going to say. Everyone is ignoring that HoT killed the Voice, not Vitiate. Using that fight as a base to comparison is just absurd.