The BattleZone! Round 1 Match 03: Lord Vitiate vs. Darth Plagueis

[Darkondo]

*Cough Cough* Meetra Surik *Cough Cough*

I've been watching this debate for a while, decided not to post as ive been Pouting it was not Traya

Do note though, that even IF the designers hadnt noticed Tol Bragas mask, it is still Canon, and is a valid point in the argument >.>

 

 

Except that Meetra Surik is a wound in the force and that he wouldnt be able to sense her, all he would feel is a presense dead to the force which he would not suspect to be within a person.

[Kaedusz]

Do note though, that even IF the designers hadnt noticed Tol Bragas mask, it is still Canon, and is a valid point in the argument >.>

 

You presume too much.The fact that he is Kel Dor is just a cosmetic detail from a game's pov.He might as well be any race you can imagine and the effect of Vitiate's lightning is gonna be the same.The jedi strike team is supposed to go unconscious.You and Aurbere are over thinking something absolutely insignificant.

 

Regarding Vitiate vs Plagueis.- Why do i have to remind you people that he consumed a planet with a hundred sith lords on it and spend more than a thousand years practically doing nothing but researching the dark side+ he was a hell of a powerful guy even before the Great Hyperspace War.Plagueis,a very powerful sith lord is a little more powerful than a Baras or Marr type of council member at the most. Even if i go in a movie characters fanboy mode,and say he is 10 times more powerful than a very good Council Member,he is *still* nothing next to Vitiate.The only way he can defeat him is countering what Vitiate does perfectly,and basically outsmarting him.

 

@Baniboybling ,The jedi knight protagonist defeated the Voice,not the original.And he is also one of the most powerful jedi ever.

Edited April 3, 2013 by Kaedusz

[Beniboybling]

Except that Meetra Surik is a wound in the force and that he wouldnt be able to sense her, all he would feel is a presense dead to the force which he would not suspect to be within a person.

Ah yes, I remember now.

[Beniboybling]

You presume too much.The fact that he is Cel Dor us just a cosmetic detail from a game's pov.He might as well be any race you can imagine and the effect of Vitiate's lightning is gonna be the same.The jedi strike team is supposed to go unconscious.You and Aurbere are over thinking something absolutely insignificant.

It wouldn't be significant if we were not discussing the effects of Vitiate's Force storm on breathing apparatus. But we are, so it is. It can also be backed up with canon Force abilities, namely Force resistance.

Regarding Vitiate vs Plagueis.- Why do i have to remind you people that he consumed a planet with a hundred sith lords on it and spend more than a thousand years practically doing nothing but researching the dark side+ he was a hell of a powerful guy even before the Great Hyperspace War.Plagueis,a very powerful sith lord is a little more powerful than the average council member at the most. Even if i go in a movie characters fanboy mode,and say he is 10 times more powerful than the average Council Member,he is *still* nothing next to Vitiate.

This would be an impressive feat if it had been his own, but it was not. The feat he performed, which may I add had been performed by Nihilus with no aid and instantly, required a huge amount of preparation and the combined strength of over 8000 Sith Lords to pull it off, a ritual that took a week to complete. Simply put, he was no were near powerful enough to do it by himself. Is it impressive he managed to dominate the minds of 8000 Sith? Partly, but not to the extent you may imagine because:

 

 

1. These 8000 Sith were likely not very powerful, not only would the most powerful have been destroyed during the war but to spread such dark side power over 8000 other beings is, as in the words of Bane, to heavily dilute it.
    
    
   
2. Vitiate used Sith magic to dominate them, something he no doubt would have spent much time preparing and something, when unleashed, is extremely difficult to defend against. Once the spell is cast - its pretty much game over unless you are exceptionally powerful.
   

 

So yeah, he can use some fancy rituals - not going to be of much help in a battle of this kind. Ultimately he is a scholar, and the true extent of his powers can only be brought to bear through great amounts of preparation.

 

And you severely underestimate Plagueis' power. He was the near pinnacle of the Rule of Two, the product of millennia or preparation and accumulation of power. Second only to his apprentice, Darth Sidious, who later became the most powerful Sith Lord in galactic history. Let's also remember that Vititate's power was more or less equal to the combined strength of Meetra, Revan & Scourge. Why? Because Scourge had visions of the Emperor's defeat as well as there own failure, we will never know what the true outcome of that battle would have been, but we do know the Emperor could very well have lost.

 

However I am not saying he is more powerful than Vitiate, only that he possesses the right skills to exploit his weaknesses and destroy him. Namely, to avoid his attacks and strike him where he's weak.

[Darkondo]

Hardly, given the fact the the Hero of Tython and those three other Jedi (not all of whom were masters) managed to resist the storm - it was only when Vitiate unleashed a powerful blast of lightning that there were incapacitated. It is obvious that the reason they were not fried, and the reason Tol Braga's mask was unharmed, was because of the natural Force resistance protecting their entire bodies.

 

To address Darkondo's points:

 

 

1. 
    
   
2. I'm questioning whether a 'change up' will actually be necessary, or whether Plagueis could just release a wave of energy while using tutaminis - he is after all, already using his hands, as well as channel that lightning into his own Force powers. It seems plausible he could gather that power and unleash it on Vitiate in a force wave, breaking the connection.
    
    
   
3. However mental attacks are also an option, as are telekinetic attacks. Given Plageuis proficiency with tutaminis it should require less Force energy to maintain, not to mention the fact that he will be 'gathering' Force energy from the lightning, making him able to throw objects at Vitiate. We also have to consider whether Plageuis will attempt to catch such a full on attack, or only choose to catch the bolts. Attempting to catch power streams of lightning is risky if not foolhardy unless you are sure you are more powerful. Plagueis may instead choose to dodge, especially if he can sense Vitiate's power. If such a 'test' could end in his death, he will most certainly avoid it.
    
    
   
4. Except Vitiate will be stunned by such an attack and knocked to the ground, as Vitiate recovers Plagueis can easily close the gap with Force speed or a Force leap.
    
    
   
5. Vitiate cannot kill what he can't see, he'll be forced to enter the corridor to engage Plagueis. It doesn't matter if he can find him or not because as soon as he does Plagueis will emerge guns blazing, sealing of the exit as he does so. It's also possible Plagueis could Force push him into the corridors.
    
    
   
6. As such, he would not do it. Plageuis will be aware of this and will not be so foolish to attempt to simply power through. Likely he will respond with a Force wave and if that does not dispel the storms either attack Vitiate or flee.

 

And finally, concerning this Force storm precog thing. Precognition is instant and instinctive. Vitiate cannot predict what Plagueis is going to do until seconds, if not less, before he does it. Seconds is not enough to redirect the flight path of a telekinetic object that he may or may not be actually throwing. This is important, Vitiate has never shown favour for telekinetic attacks, it is clear that he prefers Force lightning, so I doubt such attacks will ever even come into play. Let's also remember that Plagueis is moving extremely fast. Making Vitiate's reaction time even smaller, he will be on him in a couple of seconds. He simply doesn't have the time to follow up attacks. And finally, Plagueis has eyes and a brain. He is not blind because he can literally see the attacks coming and respond accordingly.

 

I mean, I really think you are over-exaggerating Plagueis lack of sense abilities, if what your suggesting was the case, Plagueis would royally suck in lightsaber duels - and yet he does not. It is clear that he has compensated for this loss with high perception.

 

And concerning stunning, see the Revan novel. Revan's attacks all knocked Vitiate back - Plagueis can produce attacks of the same power, if not of greater power.

 

And finally, static barriers cannot be created anywhere, just around oneself.

 

P.S. I think in general we are exaggerating Vitiate's abilities, his greatest feat was performed with the combined strength of 100+ Sith Lords and everything else he has done is not exactly impressive in comparison to other Sith. If he dueled Sidious he would lose. Sidious would unleash a storm of Force energy that he would have no option but to catch, and like Revan he would quickly be overwhelmed.

 

Actually, only Tol Braga and the Hero of Tython managed to resist the initial storm the other 3 were incapacitated. And even so, it still slowed down them both immensely to where Vitiate could throw a burst of lightning with no issue. Again, Vitiate wasnt trying to kill any of the jedi strike team, only subdue and either enslave them with mind control, or break them to his cause.

 

1. Without force bellow a change up would be necessary as he still needs to move his hands back to actually project a force wave. There is a possibility that he could move his hands back to where he is still maintaining his tutamis, however this can also put him at an even GREATER risk and heres why.

- Remember in the Revan novel, while Revan was containing Vitiate's lightning even when he was holding it and it wasnt leaking out, the sheer heat from Vitiate's lightning was melting Revan's mask into his face. The same could happen to Plagueis if held too long or it got too close to his face, and if that respirator gets damaged then Plagueis loses.

 

2. Remember, both Plagueis and Vitiate like to play god, meaning they both believe that they are gods and that there is nothing in the universe more powerful then they are. I see this as Plagueis's downfall, since he believes that he cannot be defeated even in a force battle, which he would prefer to wage anyway. Since Plagueis believes himself to be god, and that there is no way that he can be defeated, he sees lightning from Vitiate as simply something he can catch and absorb, which in his mind there is absolutely no way that he is going to be overwhelmed by it since he is god.

 

With this line of thinking, he proceeds to use tutamis to catch Vitiate's lightning. When he does this one of 3 things can happen.

- The heat from Vitiate's lightning even if he absorbs it all could melt his transpirator, thus killing him regardless if the need to change up is there or if he can use force bellow

- If he does change up, he could still be susceptible to lightning which could damage his transpirator same result

- He can use force bellow, which he may not even be able to use due to his transpirator in the 1st place

 

I just dont see Plagueis getting out of an initial lightning confrontation which would happen due to both Vitiate's and Plagueis's belief that they are all powerful.

Edited April 3, 2013 by Darkondo

[Darkondo]

@Baniboybling ,The jedi knight protagonist defeated the Voice,not the original.And he is also one of the most powerful jedi ever.

 

This is actually a controversial and debatable subject due to a statement made by Hall Hood, the lead writer of the JK story stating that he defeated the Emperor vs. an email you get from the Emperor's hand as well as the emperor's original body being sith pureblood.

 

I have no doubt that he just defeated the Voice, however this part is still debatable and a wait and see before we actually know the truth.

[Beniboybling]

@Baniboybling ,The jedi knight protagonist defeated the Voice,not the original.And he is also one of the most powerful jedi ever.

As Darkondo says, highly debatable. And I am of the opinion it was the real Emperor and that the Emperor is dead.

[Kaedusz]

Plagueis is no way ,i mean *no way*, even close to a guy that consumed a planet and that much sith lords of which at least 100 of them are real powerful.And Sidious who's feats after the movies is under construction (even if he is still alive) is,but that is another topic best left for another thread.

 

Also i imagine consuming other beings and the force out of them is something not that old by the time he did it which means he is a dark side pioneer in that regard.And he is not a wound in force like Nihilus which means you must have great will focus and power to screw an entire planet with that much sith,even if were easily exploited because of the situation they are in and they lend part of their power to Vitiate..

 

Rule of Two in our context means only that the next sith is more powerful than his Master.Just because there are 2 ,and only 2 beings use the dark side,doesn't mean they are by default godlike compared to the ancient sith.Power not being deluded is not said fully in a context of force ability.Which means -yea- you overestimate Plagueis.

Edited April 3, 2013 by Kaedusz

[Beniboybling]

Actually, only Tol Braga and the Hero of Tython managed to resist the initial storm the other 3 were incapacitated. And even so, it still slowed down them both immensely to where Vitiate could throw a burst of lightning with no issue. Again, Vitiate wasnt trying to kill any of the jedi strike team, only subdue and either enslave them with mind control, or break them to his cause.

 

1. Without force bellow a change up would be necessary as he still needs to move his hands back to actually project a force wave. There is a possibility that he could move his hands back to where he is still maintaining his tutamis, however this can also put him at an even GREATER risk and heres why.

- Remember in the Revan novel, while Revan was containing Vitiate's lightning even when he was holding it and it wasnt leaking out, the sheer heat from Vitiate's lightning was melting Revan's mask into his face. The same could happen to Plagueis if held too long or it got too close to his face, and if that respirator gets damaged then Plagueis loses.

 

2. Remember, both Plagueis and Vitiate like to play god, meaning they both believe that they are gods and that there is nothing in the universe more powerful then they are. I see this as Plagueis's downfall, since he believes that he cannot be defeated even in a force battle, which he would prefer to wage anyway. Since Plagueis believes himself to be god, and that there is no way that he can be defeated, he sees lightning from Vitiate as simply something he can catch and absorb, which in his mind there is absolutely no way that he is going to be overwhelmed by it since he is god.

 

With this line of thinking, he proceeds to use tutamis to catch Vitiate's lightning. When he does this one of 3 things can happen.

- The heat from Vitiate's lightning even if he absorbs it all could melt his transpirator, thus killing him regardless if the need to change up is there or if he can use force bellow

- If he does change up, he could still be susceptible to lightning which could damage his transpirator same result

- He can use force bellow, which he may not even be able to use due to his transpirator in the 1st place

 

I just dont see Plagueis getting out of an initial lightning confrontation which would happen due to both Vitiate's and Plagueis's belief that they are all powerful.

Yes, it did slow them down. But only because they attempted to power through it. If Plagueis were caught in such a storm (which he may simply evade) I suspect he would draw his lightsabers to absorb the attack. We also have to consider the nature of the storm, after re-watching the JK Act 2 ending it seemed that Vitiate was actively prolonging the storm and when Braga and the JK charged him he realised further bolts of energy to push them back. So, in that sense, all Plagueis would have to do is unleashed a Force wave at Vitiate and knock him back or at least stagger him, the storm would peter out and Plagueis would engage him, preventing him from summoning another.

 

 

1. Good point, but telekinetic attacks i.e. throwing objects at him, collapse the ceiling on him, are still on the table. I believe Plagueis would find a way to break the lock, that is if he decided not to dodge it instead. And if he does break the lock, he can respond immediately will an immensely powerful, charged attack.
    
    
   
2. I'm not sure we can say that Plagueis arrogance extended to the extent your suggesting. There is little evidence that this is the case, while he would definitely be confident he'd also be very much aware of Vitiate's power simply through Force sense. An awareness reinforced when Vitiate starts calling down Force storms and summoning illusions etc. This would make him reassess his tactics and leave no room for error.
   

[Beniboybling]

Plagueis is no way ,i mean *no way*, even close to a guy that consumed a planet and that much sith lords of which at least 100 of them are real powerful.And Sidious who's feats after the movies is under construction (even if he is still alive) is,but that is another topic best left for another thread.

 

Also i imagine consuming other beings and the force out of them is something not that old by the time he did it which means he is a dark side pioneer in that regard.And he is not a wound in force like Nihilus which means you must have great will focus and power to screw an entire planet with that much sith,even if were easily exploited because of the situation they are in and they lend part of their power to Vitiate..

 

Rule of Two in our context means only that the next sith is more powerful than his Master.Just because there are 2 ,and only 2 beings use the dark side,doesn't mean they are by default godlike compared to the ancient sith.Power not being deluded is not said fully in a context of force ability.Which means -yea- you overestimate Plagueis.

Did you read my post? That feat was not his own, it was the combined feat of 8000 Sith. Like I said, he can perform clever rituals, not gonna help him much in this battle.

 

EDIT: And yeah, by dilution of power, he means Force abilities. Tons of Sith attempting to grab hold of dark side secrets, getting killed by other Sith for it, and altogether having little time to hone their abilities because there too busy fighting, means there power is going to be capped. This is not the case with the Rule of Two, which takes the best of the best and makes them better, they have all the dark side knowledge too themselves and are free to explore it at their leisure, then those who come later use the knowledge that their predecessors have collected to become even better. Each Sith is more powerful than the next, by default Plagueis is more powerful than Bane.

Edited April 3, 2013 by Beniboybling

[Kaedusz]

This is not the case with the Rule of Two, which takes the best of the best and makes them better, then those who come later use the knowledge that their predecessors have collected to become even better. Each Sith is more powerful than the next, by default Plagueis is more powerful than Bane.[/color]

All that is true, but you made it sound like you believe that the Dark Side personally is gonna grand them more power by default just because there are fewer sith, which is absurd.

Also much knowledge was screwed by Darth Gravid,which means that the accumulation of power and force secrets was not in a steady progression and there was a major setback.And it was caused by one of the integral flaws of the Rule of Two at that.

That feat was not his own, it was the combined feat of 8000 Sith

Unless you are a wound in the force you can't consume a planet just like that.

This is immaterial in the first place.All that matters is the power he got after the ritual.

 

Also there is no way Plagueis can do such a thing without a ritual and help.As i said the things Vitiate do through a ritual,can not be done without it.Plagueis would need a ritual too,if he tries them.

Edited April 3, 2013 by Kaedusz

[Beniboybling]

All that is true, but you made it sound like you believe that the Dark Side personally is gonna grand them more power by default just because there are fewer sith, which is absurd.

Also much knowledge was screwed by Darth Gravid,which means that the accumulation of power and force secrets was not in a steady progression and there was a major setback.And it was caused by one of the integral flaws of the Rule of Two at that.

That's merely what I was implying. And yes they were set back, but they had several hundred years to recover. However this largely irrelevant, my point is that those 8000 Sith are likely to be fairly standard/weak. The dark side simply doesn't work well with numbers, because simply put, unlike the Jedi the Sith do not share. Its a dog eat dog world.

Unless you are a wound in the force you can't consume a planet just like that.

This is immaterial in the first place.All that matters is the power he got after the ritual.

 

Also there is no way Plagueis can do such a thing without a ritual and help.As i said the things Vitiate do through a ritual,can not be done without it.Plagueis would need a ritual too,if he tries them.

My point exactly, the feat was not that impressive as he only managed to perfom such a feat with heavy assistance from others. But yes, he did absorb their power, and it made him immensely powerful. However that is a vague term, and while we should take it into account his combat ability is a better way to gauge his ability.

 

In my books Revan + Meetra + Scourge = Vitiate and the Hero of Tython > Vitiate. Powerful bursts of energy can break Vitiate's defenses, his lightning can be blocked, absorbed and redirected, his Force storms can be endured and his illusions can be dispelled. He is by no means invincible, far from it.

 

Given this information and given the abilities and power Plagueis possess I reckon he is strong enough to defeat the Emperor however he cannot do this by powering through. He needs wit and guile to exploit the Emperor's weaknesses, and being a cerebral Sith Lord he has much of that.

Edited April 3, 2013 by Beniboybling

[Aurbere]

Just got caught up on everything, and I would like to address a few things.

 

1. Tol Braga's mask was undamaged by Vitiate's lightning. You can argue dev negligence, but we can prove that his mask was undamaged. Had it been damaged or destroyed, Braga would have died because te Empire does not have to proper gases to keep him alive. So yes, Braga's mask was undamaged by lightning used to incapacitate.

 

However, this is not Braga vs. Vitiate. This is Plagueis vs. Vitiate. So would the full force of Vitiate's lightning damage Plagueis' transpirator? We would have to consider where the bolts hit. If they do hit the transpirator, then yes, I believe the mask would be damaged.

 

2. Plagueis may find lightsaber combat tedious, but he will not hesitate to use his lightsabers when the fighting starts.

 

3. Plagueis may lack precognitive abilities, but he has certainly done well without them. Now, if Vitiate were able to sneak up on him, then Plagueis' lack of precog would be a hindrance.

 

I should probably set my own 'canon' for this like Beni did.

[Beniboybling]

If they do hit the transpirator, then yes, I believe the mask would be damaged.

Key word there being 'if' - Force resistance, Force speed and Force wave say no. Just throwing it out there.

I should probably set my own 'canon' for this like Beni did.

If you do will my canon conflict with your canon? We're going to need a Holocron Continuity Database before you know it! Someone call Leland Chee!

[Kaedusz]

Powerful bursts of energy can break Vitiate's defenses

 

My wz queue popped so im just gonna add for now that Revan is probably the best in history ,wielder of both the Dark Side and the Light Side at the same time,because of the particularities of his being.Something similar to Windu's Vapaad but much greater in applicability and in magnitude.

That is if you are referring to when he channeled both sides of the force to create ''burst of energy'' against Vitiate, in the novel.

Edited April 3, 2013 by Kaedusz

[Beniboybling]

My wz queue popped so im just gonna add for now that Revan is probably the best in history ,wielder of both the Dark Side and the Light Side at the same time,because of the particularities of his being.

That is if you are referring to when he channeled both sides of the force to create ''burst of energy'' in the novel.

Fraid' Plageuis beats Revan... but that's just my opinion and likely subject to heavy debate. And concerning powerful bursts of energy, yes I was referring to that, but also to when he was hit with his own lightning.

[Aurbere]

Fraid' Plageuis beats Revan... but that's just my opinion and likely subject to heavy debate.

 

Plagueis is certainly more powerful than Revan.

 

However, this thread is not about Revan (though it can easily be twisted that way). I would just like to advise everyone to keep Revan discussions solely to Revan vs. Vitiate for this thread. And also keep any sort of 'hero worship' for Revan aside. No need to derail this thread with the infamous Revan debates.

[Kaedusz]

Fraid' Plageuis beats Revan... but that's just my opinion and likely subject to heavy debate.

 

that's not the point.I didn't try to compare Revan and Plagueis.The point is that Plagueis would use exclusively the Dark Side.Which Vitiate is familiar with.

I think he was not familiar with a guy channeling both sides of the force in such a manner,that's why Revan managed to don't remember fully the details now, but he(vitiate) was sorta pushed back hell of a lot.

Edited April 3, 2013 by Kaedusz

[Darkondo]

Yes, it did slow them down. But only because they attempted to power through it. If Plagueis were caught in such a storm (which he may simply evade) I suspect he would draw his lightsabers to absorb the attack. We also have to consider the nature of the storm, after re-watching the JK Act 2 ending it seemed that Vitiate was actively prolonging the storm and when Braga and the JK charged him he realised further bolts of energy to push them back. So, in that sense, all Plagueis would have to do is unleashed a Force wave at Vitiate and knock him back or at least stagger him, the storm would peter out and Plagueis would engage him, preventing him from summoning another.

 

 

1. Good point, but telekinetic attacks i.e. throwing objects at him, collapse the ceiling on him, are still on the table. I believe Plagueis would find a way to break the lock, that is if he decided not to dodge it instead. And if he does break the lock, he can respond immediately will an immensely powerful, charged attack.
    
    
   
2. I'm not sure we can say that Plagueis arrogance extended to the extent your suggesting. There is little evidence that this is the case, while he would definitely be confident he'd also be very much aware of Vitiate's power simply through Force sense. An awareness reinforced when Vitiate starts calling down Force storms and summoning illusions etc. This would make him reassess his tactics and leave no room for error.
   

 

I did consider the storm, and he was only prolonging it for the wave of his hand. After that he proceeded to shoot lightning at the Hero of Tython and then a powerful burst of stronger lightning at him and Tol Braga, and while he was doing that the storm was still going on.

 

You assume that hed be able to use TK at Vitiate while hes using tutamis to try and contain Vitiate's lightning. This is highly unlikely as he would more than likely need his full focus on Tutamis else be overwhelmed. Remember he may be proficient in TK but he's not Darth Vader who could use TK to fling multiple objects (decent to huge sized objects mind you) at his opponents without the actual need to use his hands or even pause his saber attacks, also whom may be the greatest practictioner of TK pre-Luke era. Plagueis would actually need to use at least one of his hands to pull this off, which leaves him susceptible to Vitiate's lightning for however long, which puts his transpirator and his life at huge risk.

 

Good point, he may not be that arrogant but remember that he believed that he was the pinnacle of the Rule of Two, meaning he believed he was the best, most powerful sith whom ever lived. And by that logic, if he believed that he was the best which he did then when Vitiate shoots a stream of lightning at him, hes going to want to show Vitiate that he is the best and catch the lightning with tutamis.

 

When he gets overwhelmed unless he can use force bellow (which he may not even be able to do) I just dont see him getting out of this one since either the heat of the lightning could melt his transpirator, the change up from lightning to a force wave would more than likely subject him to lightning which may short out his transpirator, or say he does use TK, since hes not focusing all his energy on tutamis for that moment, hes leaving himself subject to enough lightning that it could possibly short out his transpirator, effectively killing him.

[Beniboybling]

that's not the point.The point is that Plagueis would use exclusively the Dark Side.Which Vitiate is familiar with.

I think he was not familiar with a guy channeling both sides of the force in such a manner,that's why Revan managed to don't remember fully the details now, but he was sorta pushed back hell of a lot.

Yes, he was pushed back and the attack was certainly unexpected. But a Force based attack is a Force based attack no matter what strain. For example when he was knocked back by his own Sith lightning - can't get any more familiar than that. All that really matters is the strength of the attack, so if Plageuis can perform attacks of similar magnitude he can knock back or at the very least stagger/stun Vitiate. And given the fact that his Force waves were powerful enough to vaporise scores of opponents, I think he can pack that kinda punch.

 

Tutaminis can also be used to bolster his attacks, and give especially powerful counter strikes.

 

P.S. For the record, Force wave is an unanimous Force power, as if Tutaminis and Force speed. He isn't restricted the dark side only and has tricks up his sleeve that Vitiate may not be prepared for.

[Kaedusz]

All that really matters is the strength of the attack, [/color]

 

Of course strength matters, but mostly we have to agree to disagree here.Specially because we are not talking about pure light side,pure dark side,or neutral/universal atack or light side and dark side atack - two different spells at the same time.But an attack or ''force conjuration'' consisting of both dark side and light side in one.

Edited April 3, 2013 by Kaedusz

[Beniboybling]

I did consider the storm, and he was only prolonging it for the wave of his hand. After that he proceeded to shoot lightning at the Hero of Tython and then a powerful burst of stronger lightning at him and Tol Braga, and while he was doing that the storm was still going on.

Force lightning, Force storm, its more or less the same thing I expect it was all fuel to the fire. However I'd also assume he has some measure of, if not complete, control over the storm, so if he was incapacitated the storm would likely end. Nor did the storm encompass the entire area, only a strip in front of him. I'd expect he'd need additional time to conjure a larger storm, time Plagueis would not give him. In fact in the time it took for Vitiate to summon that storm Plagueis could already have knocked him back with a Force wave, ending it before it even began.

 

Also notice the storm had no effect on the Hero of Tython, who ran right threw it. Forcing Vitiate to throw lightning at him to push him back. Plagueis is arguably of similar caliber, or at least far stronger than Tol Braga, so I'd assume he would be able to do the same, or at least be able to resist the storm to a far better degree. Which, may I note, only immobilized the Knights, not the Hero of Tython and the Master.

You assume that hed be able to use TK at Vitiate while hes using tutamis to try and contain Vitiate's lightning. This is highly unlikely as he would more than likely need his full focus on Tutamis else be overwhelmed. Remember he may be proficient in TK but he's not Darth Vader who could use TK to fling multiple objects (decent to huge sized objects mind you) at his opponents without the actual need to use his hands or even pause his saber attacks, also whom may be the greatest practictioner of TK pre-Luke era. Plagueis would actually need to use at least one of his hands to pull this off, which leaves him susceptible to Vitiate's lightning for however long, which puts his transpirator and his life at huge risk.

Is it? Perhaps... but lets remember Plagueis is extremely powerful and more powerful than Vader, he will also be empowered by Vitiate's lightning. Its only a matter of concentration and I'd assume, being a Muun and a scholar, he'd have a lot of that.

Good point, he may not be that arrogant but remember that he believed that he was the pinnacle of the Rule of Two, meaning he believed he was the best, most powerful sith whom ever lived. And by that logic, if he believed that he was the best which he did then when Vitiate shoots a stream of lightning at him, hes going to want to show Vitiate that he is the best and catch the lightning with tutamis.

 

When he gets overwhelmed unless he can use force bellow (which he may not even be able to do) I just dont see him getting out of this one since either the heat of the lightning could melt his transpirator, the change up from lightning to a force wave would more than likely subject him to lightning which may short out his transpirator, or say he does use TK, since hes not focusing all his energy on tutamis for that moment, hes leaving himself subject to enough lightning that it could possibly short out his transpirator, effectively killing him.

Arrogance does not always equal stupidity, as I said Plageuis will quickly become aware of the magnitude of Vitiate's power and perhaps reconsider that assumption. Or at least play a safer game, especially since he is wearing a transpirator, with that in mind trying to catch Vitiate's lightning would be kinda dumb.

[Beniboybling]

Of course strength matters, but mostly we have to agree to disagree here.Specially because we are not talking about pure light side,pure dark side,or neutral/universal atack or light side and dark side atack - two different spells at the same time.But an attack or ''force conjuration'' consisting of both dark side and light side in one.

True, but my argument still stands.

[Wolfninjajedi]

[/color]Is it? Perhaps... but lets remember Plagueis is extremely powerful and more powerful than Vader.

 

What? Where was this stated?

Edited April 3, 2013 by Wolfninjajedi

[Beniboybling]

What? Where was this stated?

Sorry I mean likely.