The BattleZone! Round 1 Match 03: Lord Vitiate vs. Darth Plagueis

[Wolfninjajedi]

The fact that he can make them with a wave of his hand and that he doesnt need to actually channel them. So even if Plagueis threw stuff at Vitiate it wouldnt break the storms and puts Plagueis at huge risk for the storms to short out his transpirator.

 

High risk? Yes, instant win? No. Plagueis just needs to kill Vitiate before he can kill him which its clearly in his power to do so via his various powers and saber throw. Though why would Vitiate even use lighting storms, for a single opponent anyway? He may not even use that out that gate, that could be a last resort thing.

Edited April 2, 2013 by Wolfninjajedi

[Darkondo]

High risk? Yes, instant win? No. Plagueis just needs to kill Vitiate before he can kill him which its clearly in his power to do so via his various powers and saber throw. Though why would Vitiate even use lighting storms, for a single opponent anyway? He may not even use that out that gate, that could be a last resort thing.

 

This is a good point, but heres how I project the battle to go.

 

Vitiate attempts to use mind control out of the gate to try and dominate Plagueis's mind. Plagueis struggles with it since hes never dealt with it before but due to him being a Muun and his own experience with using mind powers he is able to resist it (however it will be a slight bother to him for the rest of the fight) and knock Vitiate back with a powerful force wave. Vitiate then proceds to project powerful force lightning at Plagueis who then proceeds to attempt to counter it with tutamis. Once Plagueis realizes that he is soon to be overwhelmed, he then proceeds to use force bellow to break the lock and potentially knockback and stun Vitiate. However due to the strain it took to hold off Vitiate's lightning combined with Vitiate's constant presense in his mind, Plagueis is unable to capitalize on Vitiate's vulnerability.

 

Vitiate realizes hes losing so he begins to conjure up force illusions to buy him some time as well as mask is presense with force concealment. Plagueis then proceeds to use force wave to get rid of the illusions quickly but by the time he does Vitiate has created enough distance to where he then projects huge force storms that cover up the entire Lodge. Plagueis then attempts to erect a force barrier to protect him from the storm which makes him a sitting duck. Vitiate immediately sees what hes doing and then projects a powerful blast of force lightning. Plagueis then attempts to use his lightsabers to block Vitiate's lightning but when he does the force barrier goes out and he is then bombarded by the full brunt of Vitiate's force storm which then short out his transpirator and effectively end his life either by suffocation or by Vitiate's lightning breaking through Plagueis's defenses.

[Ventessel]

Because Plagueis normally can't see things be thrown at him? It isn't like he hasn't blocked or fought off enemies before.

 

I'm saying that Vitiate can anticipate where Plagueis will evade and thus counter him ahead of time, no matter how fast he moves, his lack of precognition will allow Vitiate to lead him into attacks.

 

Thus, Plagueis running around really fast, slamming into things because he's evading other things.

[Aurbere]

I think an interesting thing to note is that Vitiate doesn't have very many tools here. I really only see him winning by destroying or damaging Plagueis' transpirator. Now that is likely, considering the scenarios put forth. However, Plagueis possesses a myriad of defensive tools, and he may be able to repel the Force Lightning with a Force bellow.

[Beniboybling]

Vitiate can actually exploit Plagueis' Force Speed to hilarious effect. Without his precognition, which is what gives most Jedi the appearance of super-human reflexes, Vitiate can erect static barriers and use TK to throw objects into Plagueis' path, and because Vitiate has precog and Plagueis does not, his evasions can be used to simply lead him into other objects.

 

Basically, Vitiate can make Plagueis hit himself in the face with stuff. Then laugh like the deranged egomaniac he is and obliterate Plagueis with lightning.

That is based on the assumption that Vitiate is aware of Plagueis lack of precog abilities, and that there will actually be enough room to perform such a stunt. Neither I'm afraid are the case, lets remember that the Lodge of the Order of the Canted Circle is not only familiar ground for Plagueis, but also likely filled with corridors and passages. The only open space being the convening area, and that's simply not big enough for such a telekinetic storm.

 

Allow me to elaborate: Plagueis charges Vitiate after stunning him in some form, before Vitiate can react he's already closed half the distance, Vitiate doesn't even have time to think at this point, instinctively he's either going to summon lightning or hurl an object at him. Plagueis will dodge this, hit into another object? No, Plagueis has already closed the gap.

 

There is simply not enough room and not enough time to perform such a trick, and Vitiate won't know to do it anyway. Also, the corridors can be used to Plagueis advantage, if Plagueis manages to drive him in that direction it suddenly becomes harder for Vitiate to use his force powers and easier for Plagueis to draw in close and use his lightsaber.

 

There are also several problems with Darkondo's scenario:

 

 

1. Plagueis can use Tutaminis to channel Vitiate's Force lightning into a powerful Force wave, or simply dodge the attack via Force speed. Making him perfectly able to capitalize on Vitiate's vulnerability.
    
    
   
2. Vitiate has never displayed any ability in Force stealth, so if he wants to conjer a Force storm he will have to remain stationary, making it obvious who the real Vitiate is. Or he'll have to join the illusions and hope to overwhelm him, either way Plagueis will gain the advantage with Force waves.
    
    
   
3. If Vitiate does manage to summon a Force storm, he will only be able to do so in the ceremonial chamber, meaning Plageuis can easily use Force speed to escape into the corridors, were it will be easier for him to get close to Vitiate. Corridors that he is familiar with.
    
    
   
4. Force barriers are instinctive and need no kind of concentration or meditation, static barriers can be erected within seconds and do not immobilized the user. Basically Plagueis can charge in an attack Vitiate without receiving heavy damage. Case in point: Tol Braga managed to resists Vitiate's Force storms and his breathing apparatus was undamaged. What's more Braga deflected the lightning with his lightsaber, proving that this is possible.
   

 

However one thing that needs to be asked is, can Plagueis use Force bellow? Much of his lower face had been taken off and his trachea had been severed. Also sending sonic waves through a breathing device isn't the best of ideas... however Darth Vader has been known to Force scream. Either way, a mental attack would suffice if he was caught in a lock. Or perhaps Plagueis could summon a Force wave, I don't see why not.

[Aurbere]

1. 
   : Tol Braga managed to resists Vitiate's Force storms and his breathing apparatus was undamaged. What's more Braga deflected the lightning with his lightsaber, proving that this is possible.
   

 

It should be important to note that if Tol Braga's Antiox Breath Mask was damaged, he would have died a slow and painful death. Not only that, but he would have gone blind as well.

 

Basically, the breath mask protects a Kel Dor's eyes from oxygen (which damages eyes, leaving a Kel Dor blind), and acts as a filter to provide a Kel Dor with Dorin gas and helium.

 

So if Tol Braga's mask was damaged or destroyed, then he would have been blinded and killed by the oxygen. So it is not possible for Vitiate's lightning to have damaged Tol Braga's mask. So this begs the question, would Vitiate's lightning affect Plagueis' transpirator differently?

[Kaedusz]

So this begs the question, would Vitiate's lightning affect Plagueis' transpirator differently?

 

This is a moot question.Vitiate's lightning would either completely overwhelm and fry Plagueis or he would completely dodge it somehow.

Edited April 2, 2013 by Kaedusz

[Darkondo]

There are also several problems with Darkondo's scenario:

 

 

1. Plagueis can use Tutaminis to channel Vitiate's Force lightning into a powerful Force wave, or simply dodge the attack via Force speed. Making him perfectly able to capitalize on Vitiate's vulnerability.
    
   1. Like I have said before, the change up time from tutamis to a force wave puts Plagueis at huge risk as he will be subject to some of the lightning Vitiate is pouring out at him, enough to short out his transpirator. The force speed is somewhat feasible, however know that Plagueis dislikes lightsabers and only uses them as a last resort. Given that knowledge he would at first attempt to use tutamis to catch Vitiate's lightning.
   
    
   
2. Vitiate has never displayed any ability in Force stealth, so if he wants to conjer a Force storm he will have to remain stationary, making it obvious who the real Vitiate is. Or he'll have to join the illusions and hope to overwhelm him, either way Plagueis will gain the advantage with Force waves.
    
   2. Point taken, however force wave would actually help Vitiate. Plagueis's only chance is to close the gap and force wave in reality is actually making the gap further, lowering Plagueis's chances.
   
    
   
3. If Vitiate does manage to summon a Force storm, he will only be able to do so in the ceremonial chamber, meaning Plageuis can easily use Force speed to escape into the corridors, were it will be easier for him to get close to Vitiate. Corridors that he is familiar with.
    
   3. Say that is true, Vitiate would stay in the ceremonial chamber as that gives him the biggest area to conjure up a storm. Also Plagueis wont be able to hide from Vitiate due to the presense Vitiate will have in Plagueis's mind from his Corrupting Influence (mind control), also that same influence would plausibly allow Vitiate to probe Plagueis's mind and learn the location hes in.
    
   
4. Force barriers are instinctive and need no kind of concentration or meditation, static barriers can be erected within seconds and do not immobilized the user. Basically Plagueis can charge in an attack Vitiate without receiving heavy damage. Case in point: Tol Braga managed to resists Vitiate's Force storms and his breathing apparatus was undamaged. What's more Braga deflected the lightning with his lightsaber, proving that this is possible.
   

 

Ok it is possible I give you that, but I also gave the example of what would happen if he used his lightsabers to deflect the storm. It would slow him down immensely just as it did Tol Braga and leave him wide open for much more powerful blasts of lightning by Vitiate.

However one thing that needs to be asked is, can Plagueis use Force bellow? Much of his lower face had been taken off and his trachea had been severed. Also sending sonic waves through a breathing device isn't the best of ideas... however Darth Vader has been known to Force scream. Either way, a mental attack would suffice if he was caught in a lock. Or perhaps Plagueis could summon a Force wave, I don't see why not.

 

If he cannot use force bellow then he has already lost this battle. Lightsabers are something Plagueis prefers not to use and this will be his downfall. If Vitiate summons a powerful stream of lightning at Plagueis then Plagueis will initially attempt to use tutamis to counter it. When he starts to be overwhelmed which he soon would be, his only option then becomes for him to change up from tutamis into a force wave and like ive said earlier that time it takes to change up puts Plagueis at huge risk, risk that I believe will be his downfall.

[Darkondo]

It should be important to note that if Tol Braga's Antiox Breath Mask was damaged, he would have died a slow and painful death. Not only that, but he would have gone blind as well.

 

Basically, the breath mask protects a Kel Dor's eyes from oxygen (which damages eyes, leaving a Kel Dor blind), and acts as a filter to provide a Kel Dor with Dorin gas and helium.

 

So if Tol Braga's mask was damaged or destroyed, then he would have been blinded and killed by the oxygen. So it is not possible for Vitiate's lightning to have damaged Tol Braga's mask. So this begs the question, would Vitiate's lightning affect Plagueis' transpirator differently?

 

Keep in mind that Vitiate wasnt attempting to kill Tol Braga, just subdue and break him which he succeeded in doing. Also there is reasonable evidence to suggest that the Emperor that subdued the jedi strike team was indeed the Voice which only holds a fraction of the Emperor's true power. That being said Vitiate's is for sure in his real body and he's going to go on all cylinders to try and kill Plagueis

Edited April 2, 2013 by Darkondo

[Aurbere]

If he cannot use force bellow then he has already lost this battle. Lightsabers are something Plagueis prefers not to use and this will be his downfall. If Vitiate summons a powerful stream of lightning at Plagueis then Plagueis will initially attempt to use tutamis to counter it. When he starts to be overwhelmed which he soon would be, his only option then becomes for him to change up from tutamis into a force wave and like ive said earlier that time it takes to change up puts Plagueis at huge risk, risk that I believe will be his downfall.

 

Plagueis may consider lightsaber duels tedious, but he will not hesitate to draw his lightsabers when need be. He was considered a masterful duelist by Darth Tenebrous (though this is a vague statement, especially considering the number of master duelists around during that time), and was extremely capable in hand-to-hand combat. He used the Force to enhance his physical capabilities, giving him supernatural strength and speed.

 

It is most likely that he used Niman and Jar'Kai, as he relies Force abilities in combat rather than a purely physical assault.

 

In addition to the above, Plagueis is a cerebral fighter. It is unlikely that he will engage Vitiate in a pure Force battle. He will most likely rely heavily on Niman, using his proficient saber skills and power in the Force to create a hybrid offensive. He will probably add Force Speed into his offensive.

[Aurbere]

Keep in mind that Vitiate wasnt attempting to kill Tol Braga, just subdue and break him which he succeeded in doing. Also there is reasonable evidence to suggest that the Emperor that subdued the jedi strike team was indeed the Voice which only holds a fraction of the Emperor's true power. That being said Vitiate's is for sure in his real body and he's going to go on all cylinders to try and kill Plagueis

 

That's a good point.

[Aurbere]

This is a moot question.Vitiate's lightning would either completely overwhelm and fry Plagueis or he would completely dodge it somehow.

 

How is it moot? I was making a comparison between Tol Braga's Antiox mask and Plagueis' transpirator. In the case that Plagueis does block or absorb Vitiate's lightning, what kind of effect would stray bolts have on his transpirator?

 

Also, you think of Plagueis as some random weak Sith Lord. This is not the case.

[Ventessel]

That is based on the assumption that Vitiate is aware of Plagueis lack of precog abilities, and that there will actually be enough room to perform such a stunt. Neither I'm afraid are the case, lets remember that the Lodge of the Order of the Canted Circle is not only familiar ground for Plagueis, but also likely filled with corridors and passages. The only open space being the convening area, and that's simply not big enough for such a telekinetic storm.

 

He doesn't need to generate a storm, just throw a number of sharp/heavy objects at Plagueis. I don't see how confined quarters are going to help Plagueis evade either, if anything that makes it easier for Vitiate to lead him in. And he'll probably notice Plagueis' slow reaction times pretty quickly, since by comparison any other Force Sensitive would be much quicker to react.

Allow me to elaborate: Plagueis charges Vitiate after stunning him in some form, before Vitiate can react he's already closed half the distance, Vitiate doesn't even have time to think at this point, instinctively he's either going to summon lightning or hurl an object at him. Plagueis will dodge this, hit into another object? No, Plagueis has already closed the gap.

 

There is simply not enough room and not enough time to perform such a trick, and Vitiate won't know to do it anyway. Also, the corridors can be used to Plagueis advantage, if Plagueis manages to drive him in that direction it suddenly becomes harder for Vitiate to use his force powers and easier for Plagueis to draw in close and use his lightsaber.

 

I'm not really buying the argument that Plagueis will stun Vitiate. His force waves/screams are strong, but there's no evidence Vitiate can't block them. Furthermore, a simple static barrier in a hallway will cut Plagueis off and allow Vitiate to bombard him with TK. Then if Plagueis breaks through, he can shred him with lightning. Plagueis' lack of precog is basically going to guarantee that Vitiate can hit him with every attack, by making him react to one thing, such as TK, and then following with lightning. Since he can see where Plagueis is going to react, and Plagueis can't, that's basically an insurmountable advantage.

[Kaedusz]

How is it moot? I was making a comparison between Tol Braga's Antiox mask and Plagueis' transpirator. In the case that Plagueis does block or absorb Vitiate's lightning, what kind of effect would stray bolts have on his transpirator?

.

 

The guys that created the scene in game didn't think of a small details such as Tol Braga's mask,which means it shouldn't be taken into consideration.He was just part of the jedi team and was meant to go unconscious because of the plot.And that is all.

 

Besides... the lightning that Vitiate conjured in that cutscene was ment to incapacitate and was aimed at all of them.

If we go into great detail,and if Vitiate was going to do single combat vs Tol Braga with the aim of destroying him with lightning aimed at him with that purpose,it is obvious that his mask would be screwed but it's a moot point because he would die either way and the mask is an insignificant detail.Same goes with Plagueis which was my point.

If Plagueis decides not to dodge the lightning and take it's full force ,try to block it /absorb it,he would not succeed.

* * *

In no way i consider Plagueis as a random sith lord.Quite the opposite.But basically nearly every sith that ever existed is a random next to Vitiate.You have to be Darth Nox or Sidious to manage to conjure *some* kind of defence and even be close to successful.

Edited April 3, 2013 by Kaedusz

[Aurbere]

The guys that created the scene in game didn't think of a small details such as Tol Braga's mask,which means it shouldn't be taken into consideration.He was just part of the jedi team and was meant to go unconscious because of the plot.And that is all.

 

The 'plot' excuse can be made for a lot of things.

 

However, since we don't see Braga's mask damaged by Vitiate's lightning, we must assume that it didn't get damaged. If we believe that it was damaged, then Braga would have died as there is no way for the Empire to produce the gases necessary to keep Braga alive. Therefore, Vitiate's lightning had no effect on Braga's mask.

 

With or without dev negligence.

 

Besides... the lightning that Vitiate conjured in that cutscene was ment to incapacitate and was aimed at all of them.

If we go into great detail,and if Vitiate was going to do single combat vs Tol Braga with the aim of destroying him with lightning aimed at him with that purpose,it is obvious that his mask would be screwed but it's a moot point because he would die either way and the mask is an insignificant detail.Same goes with Plagueis which was my point.

If Plagueis decides not to dodge the lightning and take it's full force ,try to block it /absorb it,he would not succeed.

* * *

 

Yes, Vitiate was trying to incapacitate them. Would full lightning have a different effect? Probably so. Would Plagueis attempt to dodge or defend against it? He has to. Successfully? Most likely. Remember that Plagueis is a very powerful Sith Lord and has incredible skill in Tutaminis. He can also dodge the blast with Force Speed.

 

In no way i consider Plagueis as a random sith lord.Quite the opposite.But basically nearly every sith that ever existed is a random next to Vitiate.You have to be Darth Nox or Sidious to manage to conjure *some* kind of defence and even be close to successful.

 

Now don't get ahead of yourself. Darth Sidious would destroy Vitiate. But that's a topic for another time.

 

I would advise you to consider how powerful Plagueis is. I have no doubt that he could hold his own against Vitiate.

[Darkondo]

Plagueis may consider lightsaber duels tedious, but he will not hesitate to draw his lightsabers when need be. He was considered a masterful duelist by Darth Tenebrous (though this is a vague statement, especially considering the number of master duelists around during that time), and was extremely capable in hand-to-hand combat. He used the Force to enhance his physical capabilities, giving him supernatural strength and speed.

 

It is most likely that he used Niman and Jar'Kai, as he relies Force abilities in combat rather than a purely physical assault.

 

In addition to the above, Plagueis is a cerebral fighter. It is unlikely that he will engage Vitiate in a pure Force battle. He will most likely rely heavily on Niman, using his proficient saber skills and power in the Force to create a hybrid offensive. He will probably add Force Speed into his offensive.

 

I had taken this into account in the sense that Plagueis is a cerebral fighter. However, since he finds lightsabers tedious and doesnt quite have the scope on Vitiate's power, I would assume that he would attempt to use the force to "test the gap" of his opponent. This would leave him vulnerable in the scenario I described above. When Vitiate proceeds to channel force lightning at Plagueis, his first and most likely reaction is to catch it using tutamis since he is "testing the gap" of Vitiate's power. When he realizes he is being overwhelmed if he cannot use force bellow to his transpirator then his only option is to change up from tutamis to a force wave which like I had said earlier puts Plagueis at huge risk.

[Ventessel]

Yes, Vitiate was trying to incapacitate them. Would full lightning have a different effect? Probably so. Would Plagueis attempt to dodge or defend against it? He has to. Successfully? Most likely. Remember that Plagueis is a very powerful Sith Lord and has incredible skill in Tutaminis. He can also dodge the blast with Force Speed.

 

Plagueis is going to have an incredibly hard time dodging anything at all. Vitiate will have a tremendous advantage over him, because he can anticipate Plagueis' movements through precognition, while Plagueis is essentially flying blind.

Now don't get ahead of yourself. Darth Sidious would destroy Vitiate. But that's a topic for another time.

 

I would advise you to consider how powerful Plagueis is. I have no doubt that he could hold his own against Vitiate.

I think that Sidious and Vitiate would be a pretty close match. Sidious may have somewhat more raw power, but Vitiate has had a thousand years to study the Force and the Dark Side. His knowledge of it will be vastly more than that of basically any other Sith Lord.

Edited April 3, 2013 by Ventessel

[Selenial]

The 'plot' excuse can be made for a lot of things.

 

*Cough Cough* Meetra Surik *Cough Cough*

I've been watching this debate for a while, decided not to post as ive been Pouting it was not Traya

Do note though, that even IF the designers hadnt noticed Tol Bragas mask, it is still Canon, and is a valid point in the argument >.>

 

 

Now don't get ahead of yourself. Darth Sidious would destroy Vitiate. But that's a topic for another time.

*HINT* *HINT*

 

Also, i can see some rather large Fanboiness coming in there, I love my sorceress as much as the next gal, but she wouldnt hold a candle to Vitiate, not yet. She is not far enough into her Sith teachings yet... Maybe in a few years, when she has delved into the secrets of the Pyramid of Ancient Knowledge.

Its made quite clear Marr is the most powerful sith around, excluding the Emperor.........

Jadus not taken into account, as we have no idea as to the Canon surrounding him.

Edited April 3, 2013 by Selenial

[Selenial]

Plagueis is going to have an incredibly hard time dodging anything at all. Vitiate will have a tremendous advantage over him, because he can anticipate Plagueis' movements through precognition, while Plagueis is essentially flying blind.

 

Im sorry. Enlighten me.

Im failing to see where this whole "precognition" stuff is coming from...

Where are there examples of the Emperor having greater Precognition than other force users?

Where was this "precognition" when he failed to anticipate T3 setting him on fire.... He raised a shield, sure, but any force user could have done that, and it was not "precognition" it was instinct.

 

Where was this precognition when Meetra Surik threw her saber at the Emperor in their duel? Its noted she could have quite easily slain him with the throw, he did not react fast enough at all, she merely wished to save Revan.

 

 

Im very confused as to where your coming up with this.

[Beniboybling]

This is a moot question.Vitiate's lightning would either completely overwhelm and fry Plagueis or he would completely dodge it somehow.

Hardly, given the fact the the Hero of Tython and those three other Jedi (not all of whom were masters) managed to resist the storm - it was only when Vitiate unleashed a powerful blast of lightning that there were incapacitated. It is obvious that the reason they were not fried, and the reason Tol Braga's mask was unharmed, was because of the natural Force resistance protecting their entire bodies.

 

To address Darkondo's points:

 

 

1. 
    
   
2. I'm questioning whether a 'change up' will actually be necessary, or whether Plagueis could just release a wave of energy while using tutaminis - he is after all, already using his hands, as well as channel that lightning into his own Force powers. It seems plausible he could gather that power and unleash it on Vitiate in a force wave, breaking the connection.
    
    
   
3. However mental attacks are also an option, as are telekinetic attacks. Given Plageuis proficiency with tutaminis it should require less Force energy to maintain, not to mention the fact that he will be 'gathering' Force energy from the lightning, making him able to throw objects at Vitiate. We also have to consider whether Plageuis will attempt to catch such a full on attack, or only choose to catch the bolts. Attempting to catch power streams of lightning is risky if not foolhardy unless you are sure you are more powerful. Plagueis may instead choose to dodge, especially if he can sense Vitiate's power. If such a 'test' could end in his death, he will most certainly avoid it.
    
    
   
4. Except Vitiate will be stunned by such an attack and knocked to the ground, as Vitiate recovers Plagueis can easily close the gap with Force speed or a Force leap.
    
    
   
5. Vitiate cannot kill what he can't see, he'll be forced to enter the corridor to engage Plagueis. It doesn't matter if he can find him or not because as soon as he does Plagueis will emerge guns blazing, sealing of the exit as he does so. It's also possible Plagueis could Force push him into the corridors.
    
    
   
6. As such, he would not do it. Plageuis will be aware of this and will not be so foolish to attempt to simply power through. Likely he will respond with a Force wave and if that does not dispel the storms either attack Vitiate or flee.

 

And finally, concerning this Force storm precog thing. Precognition is instant and instinctive. Vitiate cannot predict what Plagueis is going to do until seconds, if not less, before he does it. Seconds is not enough to redirect the flight path of a telekinetic object that he may or may not be actually throwing. This is important, Vitiate has never shown favour for telekinetic attacks, it is clear that he prefers Force lightning, so I doubt such attacks will ever even come into play. Let's also remember that Plagueis is moving extremely fast. Making Vitiate's reaction time even smaller, he will be on him in a couple of seconds. He simply doesn't have the time to follow up attacks. And finally, Plagueis has eyes and a brain. He is not blind because he can literally see the attacks coming and respond accordingly.

 

I mean, I really think you are over-exaggerating Plagueis lack of sense abilities, if what your suggesting was the case, Plagueis would royally suck in lightsaber duels - and yet he does not. It is clear that he has compensated for this loss with high perception.

 

And concerning stunning, see the Revan novel. Revan's attacks all knocked Vitiate back - Plagueis can produce attacks of the same power, if not of greater power.

 

And finally, static barriers cannot be created anywhere, just around oneself.

 

P.S. I think in general we are exaggerating Vitiate's abilities, his greatest feat was performed with the combined strength of 100+ Sith Lords and everything else he has done is not exactly impressive in comparison to other Sith. If he dueled Sidious he would lose. Sidious would unleash a storm of Force energy that he would have no option but to catch, and like Revan he would quickly be overwhelmed.

[Beniboybling]

Where was this precognition when Meetra Surik threw her saber at the Emperor in their duel? Its noted she could have quite easily slain him with the throw, he did not react fast enough at all, she merely wished to save Revan.

Replace saber with Plagueis and times speed by 10. Result = dead Vitiate.

[Ventessel]

Im sorry. Enlighten me.

Im failing to see where this whole "precognition" stuff is coming from...

Where are there examples of the Emperor having greater Precognition than other force users?

Where was this "precognition" when he failed to anticipate T3 setting him on fire.... He raised a shield, sure, but any force user could have done that, and it was not "precognition" it was instinct.

 

Where was this precognition when Meetra Surik threw her saber at the Emperor in their duel? Its noted she could have quite easily slain him with the throw, he did not react fast enough at all, she merely wished to save Revan.

 

 

Im very confused as to where your coming up with this.

During the battle with Revan, Vitiate had a lot to focus on, he was distracted.

 

The fact that he did not react to the Exile's saber toss could partially be due to her having superb aim (thanks to precog). The Emperor doesn't need exceptional precog, just normal Jedi reflexes conferred by it.

 

Qui-Gon clearly states that the reason Anakin is able to perform seemingly miraculous feats during podracing is because he "sees things before they happen", he has Jedi reflexes thanks to that split-second precognition. This is manifest in lightsaber combat and when deflecting blaster bolts. The Jedi can anticipate where the strike is going to land.

 

Plagueis can't anticipate this, so in lightsaber combat he has to rely on overwhelming speed, so that even if fighting a Jedi, he can strike faster than they can guard, even if they were able to see where he was attacking. But Plagueis is not a noted duelist, he prefers to avoid lightsaber combat, probably because its extra risky for him.

 

Vitiate will not have any distractions in this fight. He'll be able to focus on Plagueis and target him precisely with a storm of objects, making it impossible for Plagueis to evade them, because he can see where Plagueis will evade to but Plagueis cannot anticipate where the objects will be thrown. He lacks "Jedi Reflexes" and instead has to rely on pure speed. While this can work to a degree in melee combat, it puts him at a huge disadvantage when his enemy can line up TK attacks ahead of time.

[Beniboybling]

During the battle with Revan, Vitiate had a lot to focus on, he was distracted.

How? He only had to do one thing, hit Revan with his own lightsaber - there were no distractions. If anything there will be more distractions in this battle, for instance the the lightning blur rocketing towards him.

The fact that he did not react to the Exile's saber toss could partially be due to her having superb aim (thanks to precog). The Emperor doesn't need exceptional precog, just normal Jedi reflexes conferred by it.

What has aim got to do with precog?

Plagueis can't anticipate this, so in lightsaber combat he has to rely on overwhelming speed, so that even if fighting a Jedi, he can strike faster than they can guard, even if they were able to see where he was attacking. But Plagueis is not a noted duelist, he prefers to avoid lightsaber combat, probably because its extra risky for him.

And yet ironically, he engages in lightsaber combat almost always. The reason he disliked it was because he saw it as a waste of energy. His own perceptive abilities clearly make up for his lack of precog, else he would not have bested him in lightsaber combat.

Vitiate will not have any distractions in this fight. He'll be able to focus on Plagueis and target him precisely with a storm of objects, making it impossible for Plagueis to evade them, because he can see where Plagueis will evade to but Plagueis cannot anticipate where the objects will be thrown. He lacks "Jedi Reflexes" and instead has to rely on pure speed. While this can work to a degree in melee combat, it puts him at a huge disadvantage when his enemy can line up TK attacks ahead of time.

Again, it simply does not work like that. Jedi cannot predict the immediate future unless it affects them, Vitiate will not be able to predict where Plagueis will move to, only where Plagueis will strike. Yet Plagueis will be moving to fast for him to use precog effectively anyway, by the time he reacts the opportunity has passed. And again, by the time he realizes Plagueis lack of precog skills, and adapts accordingly, Plagueis will already be upon him. In this sense he won't take such factors into account, he'll be forced to rely purely on instinct. And his instincts will not tell him to do what you suggest, but to batter him away with lightning volleys.

 

However, there is an angle from which this can be argued. If Plagueis charges Vitiate at extreme speeds, it will become difficult for him to perceive any incoming attacks. So if Vitiate chooses to attack with a flurry of lightning, or a telekinetic storm, he cannot rely on precog to change course and will likely be hit. However this deficiency can be overcome by stunning Vitiate first, or simply moving too fast for him to react. Either way, I do not believe the space is large enough for Plagueis to be charging Vitiate, or for Vitiate to be sending volleys a Plagueis. Attack Plagueis with TK from all sides perhaps, but Force waves will counter that effectively. Basically, Plagueis can get on top of him very easily and very quickly.

 

EDIT: And again, it is highly unlikely Vitiate will use telekinesis in this battle. It is clear that he favored Force lightning.

Edited April 3, 2013 by Beniboybling

[tunewalker]

How? He only had to do one thing, hit Revan with his own lightsaber - there were no distractions. If anything there will be more distractions in this battle, for instance the the lightning blur rocketing towards him.What has aim got to do with precog? And yet ironically, he engages in lightsaber combat almost always. The reason he disliked it was because he saw it as a waste of energy. His own perceptive abilities clearly make up for his lack of precog, else he would not have bested him in lightsaber combat.Again, it simply does not work like that. Jedi cannot predict the immediate future unless it affects them, Vitiate will not be able to predict where Plagueis will move to, only where Plagueis will strike. Yet Plagueis will be moving to fast for him to use precog effectively anyway, by the time he reacts the opportunity has passed. And again, by the time he realizes Plagueis lack of precog skills, and adapts accordingly, Plagueis will already be upon him. In this sense he won't take such factors into account, he'll be forced to rely purely on instinct. And his instincts will not tell him to do what you suggest, but to batter him away with lightning volleys.

 

However, there is an angle from which this can be argued. If Plagueis charges Vitiate at extreme speeds, it will become difficult for him to perceive any incoming attacks. So if Vitiate chooses to attack with a flurry of lightning, or a telekinetic storm, he cannot rely on precog to change course and will likely be hit. However this deficiency can be overcome by stunning Vitiate first, or simply moving too fast for him to react. Either way, I do not believe the space is large enough for Plagueis to be charging Vitiate, or for Vitiate to be sending volleys a Plagueis. Attack Plagueis with TK from all sides perhaps, but Force waves will counter that effectively. Basically, Plagueis can get on top of him very easily and very quickly.

 

EDIT: And again, it is highly unlikely Vitiate will use telekinesis in this battle. It is clear that he favored Force lightning.

 

as far as the precog thing goes what he is refering to is not vitiate's precog abilities but rather plagueis's lack their of some one like vit (or most people in general) are capable of predicting (or more likely forcing) a movement on an opponent if he knows plagueis is going to dodge he can get a guess of where he is going to dodge to and thus know where to throw the next object and from what direction to get him to move again the way vit wants him to. Plagueis's lack of precog will mean he is acting on instict and with pure speed and that instict means it be more likely for vit to force him exactly where he wants him to go and hit him with an attack he didn't see coming in time do to lack of precog.

 

This being said i don't know if even with that vit will be able to trap plagueis and the one reason why is plagueis isnt dumb i dont believe he wouldn't notice vit trying to reposition him to try to trap him i would think he has enough foresight (not force power just tactical know how) to not fall for such an obvious trap.

Edited April 3, 2013 by tunewalker

[Beniboybling]

as far as the precog thing goes what he is refering to is not vitiate's precog abilities but rather plagueis's lack their of some one like vit (or most people in general) are capable of predicting (or more likely forcing) a movement on an opponent if he knows plagueis is going to dodge he can get a guess of where he is going to dodge to and thus know where to throw the next object and from what direction to get him to move again the way vit wants him to. Plagueis's lack of precog will mean he is acting on instict and with pure speed and that instict means it be more likely for vit to force him exactly where he wants him to go and hit him with an attack he didn't see coming in time do to lack of precog.

 

This being said i don't know if even with that vit will be able to trap plagueis and the one reason why is plagueis isnt dumb i dont believe he wouldn't notice vit trying to reposition him to try to trap him i would think he has enough foresight (not force power just tactical know how) to not fall for such an obvious trap.

I am disputing the assumption that Vitiate's precognition will allow him to predict where Plageuis will move, and if it does, whether Vitiate will be able to react in time to act on that information. Given the fact the Plagueis will be moving at lightning speeds I highly doubt he will. But lets say he manages, lets say he sends a bolt of lightning at Plageuis, he dodges and moves straight into another, with no time to dodge he is forced to catch it, something he is perfectly capable of doing. This will keep happening until Plagueis knocks him down and moves in for the kill. This is likely what will happen, Plagueis will batter away Vitiate's defenses with the Force and then engage him with the lightsaber. Despite being disdain towards them he used them quite a lot. Edited April 3, 2013 by Beniboybling