The Most Popular Guide is Back! (Arsenal PvE)

[Grimsky]

Just so there is no confusion here is a simple rule of thumb for the aim vs power. On an even points total (say 18 aim or power on your augments) always take aim, it's close enough to power with buffs and tree talent plus you get your +crit from mainstat. When you have more Power per point than Aim (generally seen on your mods) you will take the higher power. Example: advanced agile mod 27A has higher aim than advanced agile mod 27, but its not an even swap of points. You gain 15 more power points than aim on these mods -your talents/buffs do not come close to offsetting this point difference.

[Aerro]

Just so there is no confusion here is a simple rule of thumb for the aim vs power. On an even points total (say 18 aim or power on your augments) always take aim, it's close enough to power with buffs and tree talent plus you get your +crit from mainstat. When you have more Power per point than Aim (generally seen on your mods) you will take the higher power. Example: advanced agile mod 27A has higher aim than advanced agile mod 27, but its not an even swap of points. You gain 15 more power points than aim on these mods -your talents/buffs do not come close to offsetting this point difference.

 

Correct. This was dictated back in 1.2 when the first discussion with the guide was had. Aim > Power under most circumstances, except for mods. For all of our mods, you grab the one with the most Power on it, which is generally the one with the least Endurance.

[Grimsky]

Correct. This was dictated back in 1.2 when the first discussion with the guide was had. Aim > Power under most circumstances, except for mods. For all of our mods, you grab the one with the most Power on it, which is generally the one with the least Endurance.

 

Indeed, still see many get confused on why/when to power vs. mainstat so I just threw it out there.

 

p.s. great job on getting the guide going again!

[Aerro]

Indeed, still see many get confused on why/when to power vs. mainstat so I just threw it out there.

 

p.s. great job on getting the guide going again!

 

Its still a work in progress I was behind quite a bit with my 6-month absence. I'm still working on adding to it.

[paowee]

I'm curious to see how much DPS you are doing in your parses.

 

2727 DPS on the PTS looks like it is attainable by Arsenal Mercs using the queue trick to provide as much extra DPS as possible.

2742 DPS as Hybrid Sniper is still a lot of work.

2826 DPS as Anni Marauder was also made in the PTS.

 

Is 2700 DPS standard for Arsenal Mercs at his current gear levels? That is a huge decrease in gap among the 3 DPS specs/classes.

 

With these parses as concrete proof, I think it is safe to say that Arsenal Merc DPS is fine. We should not be seeing any QQ PVE DPS threads from now on..

Edited April 12, 2013 by paowee

[Aerro]

This is easily obtainable, as I have a few buddies who were able to pull off ~2700 on dummies. I did not get PTS experience as I was still away at the time, but after seeing multiple people hit those numbers, it seems fairly easy if you're not incompetent.

 

Also, there will still be QQ threads because people are dumb.

[paowee]

This is easily obtainable, as I have a few buddies who were able to pull off ~2700 on dummies. I did not get PTS experience as I was still away at the time, but after seeing multiple people hit those numbers, it seems fairly easy if you're not incompetent.

 

Also, there will still be QQ threads because people are dumb.

 

Can you elaborate?

 

fairly easy if you're not incompetent.

after seeing multiple people hit

as I have a few buddies who were able to pull off.

 

I noticed in your guide that there is no mention of the queue trick to maximize DPS. If this was utilized and taken advantage of, will enable you to get procs off down to a milli-second, something that may seem miniscule but over the course of a 13-minute fight, will let you achieve (after some practice), single target 5-min parses competitive to Anni Marauders.

 

After trying this on my Sniper, I found it to have a lesser impact as opposed to, say an Arsenal Merc who can use it to "use abilities right as they proc off."

Edited April 12, 2013 by paowee

[Aerro]

Elaborate on what? People making threads to complain? Or people in my guild and in MoX? Also the queuing trick isn't really a 'trick'. Its smart and I'd be willing to bet most people in any competent guild is using it set to 1 second. Server lag is extremely random and things aren't as responsive as other MMOs, so we're only hurting ourselves to not queue any sort of abilities. Edited April 12, 2013 by Aerro

[MVaglin]

I'm a bit uncertain how much gain the "queing trick" really is. Sure you'll get off your unload a GCD earlier, but since barrage can only proc every 6 seconds, you're not getting the next barrage proc any faster. And while you will get Unload off fast when it works, every time it doesn't work, your next tracer missile will go off slightly slower. And since you only get a proc 45% of the time, there will be more times your TM will be slower compared to when Unload will be faster.

 

Combine that with the risk of missing a GCD if you time it wrong, and I'm not sure it's worth it. Or am I missing something in my reasoning above?

[Aerro]

Well, sometimes there is a very very small delay between abilities due to server lag or just human error, so this solves all of that. While its nothing HUGE, it is still a gain and the point of these guides are for min/maxing discussions, so any sort of gains are always welcomed.

[paowee]

First of all these guides are made in an effort to help new and inexperienced PVE players. It will do this thread good to desist on certain words as im pretty sure not all players are in "competent" and progression guilds.

 

Elaborate on what? People making threads to complain? Or people in my guild and in MoX?

 

I do not understand where this came from...

 

Also the queuing trick isn't really a 'trick'. Its smart and I'd be willing to bet most people in any competent guild is using it set to 1 second.

 

To emphasize the importance of queue ability and tapping at the just the right second, see this log for example:

 

http://www.torparse.com/a/157721/1/0/Log

19:39:48.949 Captaincoke gains Barrage.

19:39:48.950 Captaincoke gains Tracer Lock.

19:39:48.952 Captaincoke activates Unload.

 

19:40:07.045 Captaincoke gains Barrage.

19:40:07.046 Captaincoke gains Tracer Lock.

19:40:07.050 Captaincoke activates Unload.

 

A sample log with longer delay between proc and ability cast

 

http://www.torparse.com/a/108157/time/1358956149/1358956449/0/Overview

16:49:20.751 Cygni gains Curtain of Fire.

16:49:20.754 Cygni activates Grav Round.

16:49:21.550 Cygni gains First Responder.

16:49:21.550 Cygni's Grav Round critically hits Operations Training Target MK-5 for 3595* kinetic damage, causing 3595 threat!

16:49:22.243 Cygni spends 2 ammo unit.

16:49:22.246 Cygni activates Full Auto.

 

16:52:48.053 Cygni gains Curtain of Fire.

16:52:48.054 Cygni activates Hammer Shot.

16:52:48.467 Cygni's Hammer Shot hits Operations Training Target MK-5 for 143 energy damage, causing 143 threat.

16:52:49.644 Cygni activates Full Auto.

 

As you can see there is a significant delay between the two. Let's take a closer look:

 

19:39:48.949 From Barrage

19:39:48.950

19:39:48.952 To Unload

- a difference of .03 seconds between proc and cast.

 

19:40:07.045 From Barrage

19:40:07.046

19:40:07.050 To Unload

- a dfiference of .05 seconds between proc and cast.

 

The above is possible by doing:

• Cast TM
  
• Queue Unload
  
• Tap TM right after TM finishes
  
• It will not interrupt unload if timed properly
  

 

Whereas:

16:49:20.751 From Curtain of Fire.

16:49:20.754

16:49:21.550

16:49:21.550

16:49:22.243

16:49:22.246] To Full Auto

- a difference of 2 seconds between "Barrage" and "Unload"

 

16:52:48.053 Cygni From Curtain of Fire.

16:52:48.054 Cygni

16:52:48.467 Cygni's

16:52:49.644 Cygni To Full Auto.

- a difference of 1 second between "Barrage" and "Unload"

 

To summarize: These things are advised when trying to take your Arsenal merc PVE play one step further.

 

1. It is important to have Ability Action Priority Q set to 1.0 second.

2. Practice the following in the training dummy:

• Cast TM
  
• Queue Unload
  
• Tap TM right after TM finishes
  
• It will not interrupt unload if timed properly
  

3. Upload your logs to torparse and check the interval between Barrage -> Unload.

 

This is not absolutely necessary, but if any new players are having trouble hitting the higher end of the DPS meter then this is something definitely worth looking into and adding to their skill set. Easier said than done but may require more practice for people who are involved in the more casual side of this game.

 

They are not necessarily incompetent people, nor are they in an incompetent guild simply because they can not do the above milli-second Barrage-Unloads

 

most people in any competent guild is using it set to 1 second.

That is true but there is MORE to the ability action q than what you would suggest others to believe. The difference is quite literally improving your play by hitting procs at a superhuman 0.3 second speeds.

 

This is something that imho should be expressed as an essential aspect of Arsenal Merc DPS. Perhaps even that one thing that the individual player can aim for when raiding competitively in 2.0.

Edited April 12, 2013 by paowee

[odawgg]

I'm a bit uncertain how much gain the "queing trick" really is. Sure you'll get off your unload a GCD earlier, but since barrage can only proc every 6 seconds, you're not getting the next barrage proc any faster. And while you will get Unload off fast when it works, every time it doesn't work, your next tracer missile will go off slightly slower. And since you only get a proc 45% of the time, there will be more times your TM will be slower compared to when Unload will be faster.

 

Combine that with the risk of missing a GCD if you time it wrong, and I'm not sure it's worth it. Or am I missing something in my reasoning above?

 

You only do this when u know a barrage proc is possible. And if you practice, you won't miss a GCD

[Aerro]

I'm not sure what you're even referring to about 'being aggressive'. I have my way of teaching (which has proven for years of working) and you guys have your ways. If you don't like what I do, fine. However, you and your guildmate do need to stop jacking other peoples threads and end up posting your information/guides/personal parses as its becoming more and more apparent that it is nothing more than a mere advertisement attempt.

 

If I'm wrong, I'm wrong. Odawgg has at least been helpful.

 

You have to keep in mind that the majority of players accessing these guides ARE already trying to compete competitively. Those who are casual remain casual because they are okay with where they currently are at, and only reference guides for basic material. I'm not here to hand hold. I am here to discuss min/maxing solutions with other like-minded players, which was the entire essence of my guide.

Edited April 12, 2013 by Aerro

[paowee]

snip

 

I apologize my post came out the wrong way. Moving forward, and to continue some civil discussion in this thread please see and address and tell us what you think about the delays in Barrage and Unload which is made possible by practicing and emphasis on the Ability Priority Q.

Edited April 13, 2013 by paowee

[Aerro]

I apologize my post came out the wrong way. Moving forward, and to continue some civil discussion in this thread please see and address and tell us what you think about the delays in Barrage and Unload which is made possible by practicing and emphasis on the Ability Priority Q.

 

Well, like stated previously, most common knowledge (in my guide at the very least) already anticipated the usage of the 1sec queuing in order to fully make use of Barrage procs. It is an amazing fix for those who have not done so already, and with a little practice, can vastly increase your DPS. More Unloads = More Barrages which in turn = more Unloads. As we all know, Unload (with Barrage) is a huge portion of our current damage, so having a delay on when we use the ability only hinders our potential DPS.

 

I'll grab some parses when I can of myself. It will probably be from our next raid which is Sunday (if people show).

Edited April 12, 2013 by Aerro

[paowee]

Well, like stated previously, most common knowledge (in my guide at the very least) already anticipated the usage of the 1sec queuing in order to fully make use of Barrage procs. It is an amazing fix for those who have not done so already, and with a little practice, can vastly increase your DPS. More Unloads = More Barrages which in turn = more Unloads. As we all know, Unload (with Barrage) is a huge portion of our current damage, so having a delay on when we use the ability only hinders our potential DPS.

 

I'll grab some parses when I can of myself. It will probably be from our next raid which is Sunday (if people show).

 

Yes looking forward to your parses. I simply read two things, noticed some variations and commented. After all min-maxing to the last milli-second is the point of competitive PVE.

 

They are the most important part of these guides and is the only concrete way of min-maxing yourself against another.

 

Edit: I will ignore the rest of your comments so as to not derail this thread. I hav no need for personal advertisement and only aim at discussing and helping other players (as can be proven by my a quick search history of my past posts if you can even be politely bothered to check).

Edited April 13, 2013 by paowee

[odawgg]

I'm not sure what you're even referring to about 'being aggressive'. I have my way of teaching (which has proven for years of working) and you guys have your ways. If you don't like what I do, fine. However, you and your guildmate do need to stop jacking other peoples threads and end up posting your information/guides/personal parses as its becoming more and more apparent that it is nothing more than a mere advertisement attempt.

 

If I'm wrong, I'm wrong. Odawgg has at least been helpful.

 

You have to keep in mind that the majority of players accessing these guides ARE already trying to compete competitively. Those who are casual remain casual because they are okay with where they currently are at, and only reference guides for basic material. I'm not here to hand hold. I am here to discuss min/maxing solutions with other like-minded players, which was the entire essence of my guide.

 

Promise, I, anyway, am not trying to advertise...I want to give back to the community that has helped me get to where I'm at. Moving on! haha

[Aerro]

Promise, I, anyway, am not trying to advertise...I want to give back to the community that has helped me get to where I'm at. Moving on! haha

 

Hey, by all means link your parses. I have taken a look at your guide and I like it as well Keep up the work! Its better that there are more guides now instead of just 1 or 2 (and then guides like Noxxic which aim to make you worse). The more the merrier. I'm all for improving ontop of everyones individual strengths and weaknesses.

 

The reason I don't have parses from the past, other than some 1870 parse from back when HM EC was first released, is because TORParse stopped being managed and was just let go, but it came back without my knowledge. I'm glad there is a parsing site again, as the others were kind of off for me.

[MVaglin]

You only do this when u know a barrage proc is possible. And if you practice, you won't miss a GCD

 

I understand that you only do it when a barrage proc is possible, otherwise it'd be a bit futile.

 

And even if we ignore the missed gcd for a bit, I'm still not sure how much the actual gain here is.

 

When I fire a TM and barrage procs, I can't get another barrage for 6 seconds. This means that as long as I activate Unload within 1.5 seconds, I'm not going to lose out on any potential barrage procs due to time.

 

So what we gain by using the trick is to get Unload off one GCD sooner, but we do not gain more barrages. But the TM that you cast immediately after the first TM goes off will come a few parts of a second later than it otherwise would have (if it was queued while the first was still being cast). So every time we don't proc barrage, there is a delay in our rotation (not a large one).

 

So from what I can see, the benefit from doing it this way is that if Unload comes off cooldown naturally (ie you fail to get any procs for a cycle) that will happen one GCD later.

 

To illustrate what I mean, here is a snippet from the same log paowee linked:

 

19:39:37.274 Captaincoke activates Tracer Missile.

19:39:38.531 Captaincoke activates Tracer Missile.

19:39:40.524 Captaincoke activates Tracer Missile.

 

The first two tracer missiles are 1.3 seconds apart, while the second and third are almost two seconds. Now I understand this is on the PTS and lag on that server is a concern, so the difference shouldn't be that large on live servers, but the tracer missile will still get a delay.

 

I suppose the main benefit from this comes in the energy gain. One TM followed by unload could work energy wise, while if you go two TM you might be forced to do a rapid shot and then you do loose out on chance for barrage procs.

 

So I guess I'd add to the "rule" for when using this is that only do it if using a second TM straight up would cause you to need to fill with a rapid shot before you can unload.

 

Unless again I'm missing something (which is entirely possible, I'm just theorizing here and would like for anyone to explain where I'm going wrong)

[odawgg]

 

I suppose the main benefit from this comes in the energy gain. One TM followed by unload could work energy wise, while if you go two TM you might be forced to do a rapid shot and then you do loose out on chance for barrage procs.

 

So I guess I'd add to the "rule" for when using this is that only do it if using a second TM straight up would cause you to need to fill with a rapid shot before you can unload.

 

Unless again I'm missing something (which is entirely possible, I'm just theorizing here and would like for anyone to explain where I'm going wrong)

 

This is exactly right....and most times 2 TM followed by an unload WILL bring you above 39 heat since you're talking about a combined 48 heat with only approximately 1.5s in between the end of the first TM and the beginning of the unload. So unless you started at 0 (or very low) heat and got an HVGC auto vent, you're likely to go over the threshold...adding the unload in first is better heat management.

 

Edit: Feel free to test it out yourself, I know that when I first began doing this I saw a significant DPS increase for myself anyway. There's another condition to even using this as well, u don't want the unload you're about to attempt to catch on proc to bring you over this threshold either. I personally look at my heat bar as TM is casting, if I see it dissipating to single digit heat, i queue unload, otherwise, i queue rapid shots or some other ability that may be coming off cd that will keep it below 40 (maybe obvious, just wanted to be thorough since you're asking for details).

Edited April 13, 2013 by odawgg

[MVaglin]

Nothing wrong with being thorough

 

I have been trying this, but haven't put in the practice to get it down right. When I tried it on the PTS, lag was a factor for me so I decided to skip it for then.

 

Will give it a go now though.

[paowee]

I understand that you only do it when a barrage proc is possible, otherwise it'd be a bit futile.

 

And even if we ignore the missed gcd for a bit, I'm still not sure how much the actual gain here is.

 

 

That is why we need actual parses:

 

Checking these 1.7 parses from ToFN's leaderboards http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=534251

 

1) http://www.torparse.com/a/108157/time/1358956149/1358956449/0/Overview - 124 Unloads

2) http://www.torparse.com/a/26629/time/1349194709/1349195012/0/Overview - 109 Unloads

 

Assuming "Unload" was min-maxed and used at every possible moment with the "Barrage" proc

1's) parse had a total of 124 Unloads versus 2's) 109 Unloads.

 

Due to having more usage of "Barrage'd" Unloads, it is safe to assume that 1) will be doing more DPS than 2), which only had 109 Unloads in the same amount of time. And as you can see 1) did ~200 more DPS than 2).

 

If we check this 2.0 PTS parse 3) http://www.torparse.com/a/157721/1/0/Log ~2727 DPS

 

We can see that it had a total of 211 Unload, 51 of which were used with the Barrage proc. Seeing that there is no available parse in the market yet that is doing more than 2727 DPS, it can be assumed that

 

(51 Barrage / 211 Unloads)*100 = ~24% is the benchmark ratio and what you should be hitting for when personally checking your 5-min single target sustained parses. Simply upload your log in torparse and check how many hits of Unloads you did compared to the number of your Barrage procs. Imo you can increase the amount of Unloads by practicing and parsing Ability Priority Q, specifically:

 

 

• Cast TM
  
• Queue Unload
  
• Tap TM right after TM finishes
  
• It will not interrupt unload if timed properly
  

 

If someone can post a 2.0 parse, regardless of whether or not it did more than 2727 DPS, that has a higher Barrage to Unload ratio, then that will be a good comparison parse for anyone trying to min-max his Arsenal Merc DPS.

 

If there is any parse that shows it did LESS THAN ~24% Unload to Barrage ratio while doing MORE than 2727 DPS, then that will be a great enlightenment to the min-maxing community and we would all be eager to learn of that person's specific DPSing methods.

 

But as of now, in my humble opinion, the BEST min-maxing method, since this is a min-maxing thread after all, to increasing Arsenal Merc DPS (for THOSE people wanting to raid competitively on a higher level) is to practice the bulleted list above, upload the log and personally check your ratios and see if it is close to ~24%. This is after all, and i paraphrase and quote, NOT a hand-holding thread for the casual player and so every detail of the log should be seen and publicly scrutinized---to no offense.

 

Do a 5 min parse and aim for a sub-optimal 15% Barrage to Unload ratio. Then do another parse with the optimal ~24% Barrage to Unload ratio and check the results yourself. I would wager that the latter will yield more DPS thus providing some proof that minimizing the delay between Unload and Barrage, to the last min-maxing milli-second, by practicing the list above, is the best way to gauge how competitively you play against another Arsenal Merc player.

 

Just my contribution and 2cents.

 

Anyway, Friday night.. , see you all in torparse

Edited April 13, 2013 by paowee

[odawgg]

Nothing wrong with being thorough

 

I have been trying this, but haven't put in the practice to get it down right. When I tried it on the PTS, lag was a factor for me so I decided to skip it for then.

 

Will give it a go now though.

 

yeah if u got too much lag, forget about it, it's gonna mess up for sure lol

[odawgg]

 

upload the log and personally check your ratios and see if it is close to ~24%.

 

Do a 5 min parse and aim for a sub-optimal 15% Barrage to Unload ratio. Then do another parse with the optimal ~24% Barrage to Unload ratio and check the results yourself. I would wager that the latter will yield more DPS thus providing some proof that minimizing the delay between Unload and Barrage, to the last min-maxing milli-second, by practicing the list above, is the best way to gauge how competitively you play against another Arsenal Merc player.

 

Edit: After reading this over again, you're not disecting the data properly...you can go down a couple posts for details.

 

I think the majority of the merc community (snipers are over there [point] ), at least the top performers, is in agreement that you want to try and give yourself as many opportunites for procs as you can in between RS/HSM cds. And the "proc trick" that it's now so infamously named hehe can assist with that when performed optimally. The comprehensiveness of the OPs guide is completely at his discretion, he can draw the line wherever he chooses.. The topic's been brought up in this thread and that should be good enough.

Edited April 14, 2013 by odawgg

[Knopik]

This was a very great read. Coming from an arsenal merc.

I pretty much relied on aerro's guide when i came back to the game to get geared out, but didn't pay much attention to rotation and priority and all that.

I never knew about the 1 sec queue trick and went through life with 0.5 seconds queue. My best dps was done with me chain casting TMs, and then either letting a TM hit after barrage proc'd followed by a railshot/HSM or rapid shots, or in another case cancelling my current TM cast (no GCD if you cancel) and then using unload immediatly.

I took a look at my parse and the delay when cancelling was close to 0.6 seconds every time consistently.

Here's a parse for you all to take a look at, this is my best -------> PRE 2.0.<------

http://www.torparse.com/a/174451/time/1364523304/1364523608/0/Overview