Darth Malgus vs Darth Bane vs Darth Vader

[Oxades]

This is interesting. May as well jump in. However I'm not just going to list abilities because that is entirely pointless if I don't compare them. So here goes.

 

Lightsaber/Combat Abilities

 

Vader: One of the greatest fighters of his time Vader and achieve mastery over Djem So - mixed with elements of all other forms including Makashi and Soresu - his attack was extremely powerful and overwhelming with even the most basic of strikes capable of disarming. His defensive is also just as good, with his mastery of Djem So covering both spheres and has been shown to be effective against multiple lightsaber wielding opponents. However due to his suit he lacked mobility, although he compensated this with tactical ingenuity.

 

Malgus: Much like Vader, he is an infamous Jedi hunter. And likely uses a hybrid Djem So form much like Vader, he also possessed extremely high mobility, overcoming the form's primary weakness. He was also skilled in disarming opponents and mixing his attacks with unarmed strikes. He combined his skill with the lightsaber with tactical ingenuity, preempting attacks and manipulating duels in his favour. His lightsaber attacks were fueled with pent up dark side rage, which made each attack potentially devastating. In terms of defensive techniques, he is highly proficient, able to hunker down and hold out against consecutive attacks.

 

Unsurprisingly, these guys are pretty much mirror images of each other and equally matched in many fields. They are both extremely proficient in lightsaber attack and defensive and while Malgus' abilities were augmented with dark side rage, Vader's were augmented by his suit. They both have tough armor and use tactical ingenuity to turn the tide of battle. And while Vader is likely the better duelist Malgus has the edge in two areas - his rage is far more effective in bolstering his abilities and his excellent mobility is a perfect counter to Vader's lack of it. Therefore in terms of lightsaber combat, Malgus gets the edge.

 

Physical Capabilities

 

Vader: Thanks to his suit his mobility was highly hampered, however it also augmented his strength and stamina. Painkillers meant he was also highly resistant to pain and his suit could survive all kinds of damage e.g. blaster bolts, flamethrowers, explosions, hard vacuums etc. He was however incapable of surviving for long without his breathing apparatus. His only weakness is force lighting/electrical discharges.*

 

Malgus: He is extremely strong and agile, and his breathing apparatus is largely unnecessary, although after his defeat on Alderaan he relied heavily on internal cybernetics in repair his body. However his stamina and endurance is extremely high, seeing as after being buried alive and in requirement of extensive medical attention and cybernetic augmentation to survive he fought and bested a pair of Jedi. Oh, and he survive being buried alive. Force lighting also had no effect on his cybernetics, which likely only augmented his abilities.

 

Both have solid armour, and extremely high endurance and stamina levels thanks to personal abilities and cybernetics. And although Vader's suit is all that more endurable, it is weak against Force lighting, an ability Malgus is proficient in, and Vader is also more reliant on it - meaning that any damage done to the suit is going to be all that more destructive. However Vader has come off far better than Malgus has when recieving devastating attacks, and can simply take more punishment - Vader gets the edge, just.

 

Force Powers

 

Vader: He was highly proficient in incorporating force based attacks into his fighting style, he is also capable in extensive telekinesis and tutaminis able to break through the Force shields of Jedi opponents. However thanks to his prosthetic arms he is incapable of Force lightning and thanks to the loss of organic tissue his Force abilities are limited.

 

Malgus: Malgus was extremely skilled at augmenting his abilities with the Force, performing supernatural speed, agility and strength. His telekinetic abilities were also profound and his often incorporated them into his lightsaber attacks, or chain them together - much like Vader his is more than capable of breaking though the Force shields of Jedi opponents. However unlike Vader, he is highly skilled in application of Force lightning, capable of killing Jedi instantly. He was also capable of using Force deflection to protect himself from harm or simply cocooning himself in the Force. Malgus was also exceptionally skilled in channeling his anger, able to conjure powerful Force maelstroms which protected the user and attack the enemy - the pinnacle of this ability was the Force storm.

 

Malgus's Force abilities were vicious, brutal and various. The third quality being the most important, he is pretty much equally matched in other respects but his Force lightning is a powerful ability Vader does not possess and is non-resistant to. His defensive capabilities in the Force arguably outclass Vader's whom only seems to rely on his suit and his lightsaber force defense, while Malgus often uses the Force to create bubbles of protection around him. Therefore Malgus gets the edge.

 

Verdict

 

Malgus wins, the fighting will be intense and drawn out but Malgus possesses the skill to hold out and counter Vader's lightsaber abilities and telekinetic attacks. He has high proficiency in Djem So, high mobility and tactical ingenuity, allowing him to more successfully evade, counter and exploit Vader's attacks. He is also more than capable to absorb any Force based attacks Vader can dish out. However given Vader's almost identical skills they are at a relative impasse. What gives Malgus victory is his agility and Force abilties, as the fight countinues Malgus will have multiple opportunities to draw away from Vader, or push him away, in order to deal a devastating Force lightning based attack. Several consecutive attacks of this kind will be enough to wear Vader down and deal the killing blow. I may assess Bane's abilities at a later date, but I think both Vader and Malgus outclass him.

 

*Despite what everyone says, I do believe this is a weakness. I don't have TFU II novel but I'm pretty sure events happened differently to how they were portrayed. Wookieepedia claims Starkiller was disarmed but he convinced Vader to lower his defenses before unleashing Force lightning which subdued him immediately. It was also Force lightning which damaged his suit beyond repair above Endor and then

- doesn't seem all that resistant.

 

Compare and contrast, I like this kind of debate.

[Genuine]

Vader. Though should note, this needs to be moved to the Discussion forum section this place is for The Old Republic stuff.

 

Bane was in the old republic Era

[Wolfninjajedi]

Snip.

 

Beni...just no, no...Vader wins this. Malgus is just below him.

 

Vader lacking rage? WHAT?....No, his mobility is a non-facter, he wasn't slow by any stretch he was quite fast in his movements.

 

Vader was not only faster than Starstone remembered him being on Murkhana against Master Chatak, but also more agile. He employed his awesome power to put a quick end to the fancy twirling of his opponents, who fell back against the hammering blows of Vader's bloodshine blade.

 

The Dark Lord stepped into the room, scanning it. There was something here...

The faint click of metallic weapons reached his ears. Faster than thought, Vader drew and ignited his lightsaber. In the same moment, small openings appeared in the walls and ceiling, and hidden blasters fired. Energy beams rained down on the Dark Lord and his soldiers. Stormtroopers cried out as blaster bolts shattered their white armor. At least a dozen bolts streaked toward Vader himself. Moving faster than the eye could follow, Vader's lightsaber blocked them all.

 

His first blow was easily parried. He came at Vader again. Again. Circling, jumping, vaulting past him, turning through walls of shattering debris. Each time his lightsaber came close to Vader, it was either deflected in a shock that ran up his arm... or Vader simply wasn't there.

 

As the holocron was destroyed, Ferus felt himself again. But he felt more than that. He felt as though he was his friends and masters and well. He felt as though he was the Force. Vader came out of nowhere, his hand seemingly teleporting from his side to the air in less than a tenth of a second. Ferus felt the Force being kicked out of him... he felt himself being suffocated. Deprived of air has Vader's Force Choke grew tighter.

 

http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/4/48765/2139119-new_picture__123_.jpg

 

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Vader has taken on faster and younger opponents before, Malgus holds no edge in mobility as I have posted in other scans Vader taking on those who would be faster then he was.

 

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v200/DataZak/blog/vadermaul5.jpg

 

Straight to the point, he stabs himself right through the chest and is still alive. Noting he hates HIMSELF.

 

He concentrated on the injustice of his condition, on his hatred of Obi-Wan, who had made him so. With the anger and hatred, the dark side of the Force permeated Vader. For a moment, his ruined tissues altered, his scarred lungs and dead alveoli and constricted passages smoothed out and became whole.

 

Using his hatred to heal himself, if only temporary.

 

Vader's reaction was not what he'd expected. After a frozen instant, ignoring the bloody spittle running down one plasteel cheek, he knelt and grabbed Typho by the hair, lifting the latter's head and eliciting a cry of renewed pain from him. "What?" The flare in the Force that raced through the hangar was enough to shake the foundations of the building. The Dark Lord actually seemed to grow, to expand and become more terrible in his rage than Typho would have believed possible

 

His rage so big, that it shakes the foundations of a building.

 

http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/4/48765/2139132-new_picture__135_.jpg

 

http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/4/48765/2139133-new_picture__136_.jpg

 

Collapsing a cathedral ontop of himself and surviving for days on the darkside.

 

Hatred would not be enough to turn the tables on Darth Vader.Reaching out with his left hand, he blasted his Master with Sith lightning.

 

Broke the momentum of the furious onslaught, enabling him to stand and catch his breath. "I don't need to hate you in order to beat you," he gasped. "That's something I will teach you now." "You can teach me nothing," Darth Vader's leaden voice intoned. One black glove clenched, and for a moment the apprentice's throat closed tight.

 

Surviving Force Lighting.

 

The only reason he died due to Sidious' lighting was the fact, it was coming from the most powerful sith lord ever and Vader had let go of his hatred.

 

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/4/48954/1632923-new_picture__14_.jpg

 

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/4/48954/1632924-new_picture__15_.jpg

 

Surviving an electrical net being thrown on him.

 

Side note: Vader can also use Force Barrier, among other Force Powers. Alter Environment, Telepathy, Induce fear, control minds etc, etc some examples..

 

But the Force, of course, was quite real—and the black tentacles of its dark side had hardened Palpatine and his new pupil, Darth Vader, into evil incarnate. They shared its horrible energies, and used them to fill the minds of their subservient military minions with fear.

 

Can induce fear into others.

 

http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/4/48765/2139208-new_picture__104_.jpg

 

http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/4/48765/2139209-new_picture__105_.jpg

 

Alter Environment.

 

The wind picked up, and Vader's black cape rippled at his back. "Luke—you can destroy the Emperor. He has foreseen this. It is your destiny." He opened his left hand end held it out to Luke. "Join me, and together we can rule the galaxy as father and son."

His voice is so hypnotic, Luke thought, and he felt part of him falling under Vader's spell.

 

Dun Moch.

 

Vader stepped closer to him. "I think you will. In fact, I know you will. You are brave; your record makes that clear. You do not fear death." He raised his left hand, index finger slightly extended, as if making a point. "But there are far worse things than mere death ...". And before Nick realized what was going on, the Dark Lord was somehow inside his head, a dark shadow interrupting the flow of his thoughts. The shadow seemed to expand...Nick screamed, and fell into a blackness even more perfect than the eyes of Darth Vader

 

Attacking mentally.

Edited March 29, 2013 by Wolfninjajedi

[Aurbere]

*snip*

 

This could not be anymore wrong. The only way it could be more wrong is if you said Bane would win.

 

You have severely underestimated Vader. He is THE Jedi Killer. Each move is made with tactical precision intended to kill. He was remarked as being an unstoppable killing machine, knowing an enemy's moves before they make them, and countering with deadly precision.

 

You have also underestimated Vader's suit, something everyone does. Vader augmented his suit to resist Force Lightning. The only reason he was killed by Sidious was because Sidious' Lightning was the most powerful ever, and he had given up the Dark Side. Even then he made it from the throne room to the hangar without dying on Luke.

 

I don't even know how you could give Malgus the edge in Force power over the CHOSEN ONE! Seriously? He became 80% of Sidious. He could will himself back to life, survive for days after being crushed, use Force Crush, Force Choke people from different starships, and he was superior to his master before being placed in the suit.

 

In addition to the above, his accolades in combat speak for themselves. Defeating Count Dooku. Killing Cin Drallig. Nearly killing Obi-Wan Kenobi.

 

That was before the suit, when he was weaker. In the suit he became unstoppable. He walked into an ambush orchestrated by half a dozen Jedi Masters and killed most of them before his reinforcements arrived. He killed an enemy that can teleport. Proved an even match for Galen Marek. I could go on and on, but I won't.

 

I seriously expected more. While Malgus is underestimated and would provide Vader with a greater challenge, he is simply no match for the original juggernaut. Again, I expected better from you.

[Beniboybling]

You have severely underestimated Vader. He is THE Jedi Killer. Each move is made with tactical precision intended to kill. He was remarked as being an unstoppable killing machine, knowing an enemy's moves before they make them, and countering with deadly precision.

The exact same has been said of Malgus, there is no room for comparison here. They are portrayed by their writers in exactly the same way - most likely deliberately.

You have also underestimated Vader's suit, something everyone does. Vader augmented his suit to resist Force Lightning. The only reason he was killed by Sidious was because Sidious' Lightning was the most powerful ever, and he had given up the Dark Side. Even then he made it from the throne room to the hangar without dying on Luke.

Yes, I took that it account. But I also took into account the fact that Galen Marek (who is not Darth Sidious) subdued him in the same way. Pretty quickly too. Malgus can pack a similar punch, only masters of Force lightning can pull of a Force maelstrom.

I don't even know how you could give Malgus the edge in Force power over the CHOSEN ONE! Seriously? He became 80% of Sidious. He could will himself back to life, survive for days after being crushed, use Force Crush, Force Choke people from different starships, and he was superior to his master before being placed in the suit.

Again, a null point, people seriously need to stop making statements and start comparing. Giving me a list of Vader's abilities has no bearing if you do not apply them to this debate. But just for the record, Malgus can and has survived for days after being crushed, use Force crush, Force Choke etc. Anakin superior to Sidious? What? I ask you to reassess that statement, please. And now to address this Chosen One buisness. Yes, true, but lets also remember that Vader was a four-limb amputee - that's a lot of organic tissue replaced by prosthetics. And organic tissue is essential to wielding the Force. Once Vader had lost that he lost connection to the power he once had. The way I intepret the 80% stat is this: Vader possessed 80% of Sidious' power, but he couldn't use it. Why? Firstly because his body was crippled, and secondly his mind was crippled by anger, grief and regret. He was a broken man in every respect. Otherwise Sidious would not be able to floor him with ease.

In addition to the above, his accolades in combat speak for themselves. Defeating Count Dooku. Killing Cin Drallig. Nearly killing Obi-Wan Kenobi.

Again, compare. These standalone statements mean nothing! Whose to say Malgus could not do the same thing? I'm not saying he can (although he'd defeat Dooku quite handedly) but we don't know if he cannot.

That was before the suit, when he was weaker. In the suit he became unstoppable. He walked into an ambush orchestrated by half a dozen Jedi Masters and killed most of them before his reinforcements arrived. He killed an enemy that can teleport. Proved an even match for Galen Marek. I could go on and on, but I won't.

Please, please don't. No offense people but this is no way to debate.

[Beniboybling]

*snip*

Snip, you make some interesting points. However we also have to remember that Malgus wielded many of the abilities you listed and without context Alter Enviroment cannot really be applied. However concerning mobility, it is a fact that is was hampered - Vader simply wasn't as fast as he used to be. But you've demonstrated that he was by no means slow. However I'd still definitely say Malgus is faster, and was better at using his rage to fuel his attacks. After all it was Malgus who Sidious provided as an example in his 'Book of Anger'.

 

TBH, this is a very difficult debate to call, at least concerning Malgus and Vader - because they are just so similar and their feats almost identical. Clearly this is no accident. However the way I see it is, Malgus is faster, and his Force skill set more varied, which gives him an edge.

 

But let's take a moment to assess Bane. Rule of Two logic cannot be applied here because Vader was essentially not part of the Rule of Two - to an extent. By this I mean he never overthrew his master after becoming more powerful, which is the basis of Rule of Two logic, that each successor is more powerful than their predecessor. Nor do I think the fact Sidious was his master has much bearing either, after all Sidious barely taught him anything. Anakin had learned at the feet of the Jedi and later simply trained himself, with Sidious providing him with a few holocrons. And then of course his transformation takes a big hit on Force abilities.

 

I think Bane's extensive Force powers would give him an edge over Malgus and Vader. However I do not believe he was as skilled as them in lightsaber combat, certainly not as skilled as Vader who achieved mastery over several forms, he only seems to use Djem So and Soresu, making no effort to develop hybrid forms as Malgus and Vader did - so I'd give them the edge in that respect.

 

Again, a difficult one to call. But I think Bane's extensive Force abilities would make him a significant contender in this battle.

[Kaedusz]

...

[/COLO

 

/nod

Edited March 29, 2013 by Kaedusz

[Aurbere]

The exact same has been said of Malgus, there is no room for comparison here. They are portrayed by their writers in exactly the same way - most likely deliberately.

 

Most likely, but all you can say about Vader's accolades is that Malgus could possibly do them (ie. Kill Dooku, Cin Drallig etc.)

 

Yes, I took that it account. But I also took into account the fact that Galen Marek (who is not Darth Sidious) subdued him in the same way. Pretty quickly too. Malgus can pack a similar punch, only masters of Force lightning can pull of a Force maelstrom.

 

I doubt Malgus can pull of the same amount of power as Galen Marek, but we shall see.

 

Again, a null point, people seriously need to stop making statements and start comparing. Giving me a list of Vader's abilities has no bearing if you do not apply them to this debate. But just for the record, Malgus can and has survived for days after being crushed, use Force crush, Force Choke etc. Anakin superior to Sidious? What? I ask you to reassess that statement, please. And now to address this Chosen One buisness. Yes, true, but lets also remember that Vader was a four-limb amputee - that's a lot of organic tissue replaced by prosthetics. And organic tissue is essential to wielding the Force. Once Vader had lost that he lost connection to the power he once had. The way I intepret the 80% stat is this: Vader possessed 80% of Sidious' power, but he couldn't use it. Why? Firstly because his body was crippled, and secondly his mind was crippled by anger, grief and regret. He was a broken man in every respect. Otherwise Sidious would not be able to floor him with ease.

 

By 'master' I was referring to Obi-Wan.

 

Vader was capable of immense power. Despite losing his limbs, he could still use the Force. I don't see how limbs are necessary to wield the Force. Vader has proven himself capable of incredible feats without limbs. How do you explain his feats if losing limbs so greatly impaired him. He may have lost his true potential, but he still remained powerful and canonically grew more powerful in the suit.

 

Again, compare. These standalone statements mean nothing! Whose to say Malgus could not do the same thing? I'm not saying he can (although he'd defeat Dooku quite handedly) but we don't know if he cannot.

 

You want comparisons? Fine.

 

Malgus defeated Kao Cen Darach, Vader defeated Cin Drallig (Pre-Mustafar) Cin Drallig is a master of six lightsaber forms, and Vader (much to my dismay) defeated him handily.

 

Malgus defeated Ven Zallow, Vader defeated Count Dooku (a man who's only equals were Yoda, Sidious and Mace Windu). Again, pre-suit

 

Malgus defeated Lord Adraas, Vader narrowly lost to Galen Marek (who is still very powerful in the novel).

 

Please, please don't. No offense people but this is no way to debate.[/color]

 

Don't what? You have no evidence to suggest that Malgus is superior to Vader. Your argument comes down to Force lightning, and similarities. Yes, they are similar, and Malgus is capable of Force lightning. But, not only have I proven the Force Lightning argument wrong, I (and Wolf) have also provided evidence to show Vader's superiority.

 

Vader simply has a greater edge. His betters in his time were Yoda, Mace Windu, and Darth Sidious (at least until NJO comes around). Vader has beaten greater foes than Malgus has (including someone who could teleport). Vader is a better duelist than Malgus is. Vader is more powerful than Malgus is. And he has proven it time and again.

 

But if you want to think that Malgus is more powerful than Vader, fine.

[Kaedusz]

i will ignore the above fanboy tirade and would like to add that not only Malgus would defeat Vader but propably every sith ,with the title of Darth,even some of the Lords, in this Sith Empire will defeated him.Some of them will not just defeat him,but wipe the floor with him.Well ...maybe except Darth Skotia .

As i said before he is a joke when compared to Sith with capital S.But i guess just because he is the famous Vader from the movies and has a lot of backstory cus of that, we have to give him attention.This debate should be about Bane vs Malgus.

Edited March 29, 2013 by Kaedusz

[Oxades]

I don't even know how you could give Malgus the edge in Force power over the CHOSEN ONE! Seriously? He became 80% of Sidious. He could will himself back to life, survive for days after being crushed, use Force Crush, Force Choke people from different starships, and he was superior to his master before being placed in the suit.

 

Question, where are you getting this “He became 80% of Sidious” from? Also I heard that Luke was really the chosen one not Vader, but I can’t remember where I heard it so I could be wrong.

 

It have also been stated the TCW era Jedi Order were much more powerful than any other before, but in the movies it is shown to be complacent do to the long time of peace. Most of the Jedi hadn’t even been in a real lightsaber duel, so how can they be stronger then the TOR Jedi Order who had 30 years of lightsaber combat experience? Even Yoda and Mace acknowledged that their ability to use the force was weakening no growing. Also Malgus stated that only through conflict can you grow in the force. Before TCW there was no conflict, so how can TCW era Jedi Order be more powerful than any other?

 

Anyway as I stated before I haven’t read any of the comics but they seem to be contradicting what I thought I know.

Edited March 29, 2013 by Oxades

[Wolfninjajedi]

i will ignore the above fanboy tirade and would like to add that not only Malgus would defeat Vader but propably every sith ,with the title of Darth,even some of the Lords, in this Sith Empire will defeated him.Some of them will not just defeat him,but wipe the floor with him.Well ...maybe except Darth Skotia .

As i said before he is a joke when compared to Sith with capital S.But i guess just because he is the famous Vader from the movies and has a lot of backstory cus of that, we have to give him attention.This debate should be about Bane vs Malgus.

 

Ok I can tell your just trolling, after clearly the evidence I shown or being ignorant and just not wanting to accept it so i'll just stop now since you won't take what is clearly shown right infront of you.

[Aurbere]

Quotes!

 

"Now that Vader had begun to tap deeply into the power of the dark side, his true apprenticeship can begin."

 

"More important, by the time Vader was capable of becoming a risk to his mastery, Sidious would be fully conversant with the secrets Plagueis had spent a lifetime seeking - the power over life and death. There would be no need to fear Vader. No need to have an apprentice other than to honor the tradition Darth Bane had resurrected a millenium earlier."

 

Right here it shows that currently Sidious fears Vader. That he's a threat to his mastery of the dark side. Just prior the book was talking about Sidious views on the rule of two and how he remembered when he killed his master. Vader is a threat to him. He's THAT powerful but Sidious feels in the future. He won't be. He'll become so powerful that there wouldn't be a need for another apprentice. That time hasn't come yet. First it states he's becoming more powerful now that he's finally tapping deep into the dark side and then it states in the future he won't need to fear him.

 

 

"Time and again the two Jedi attempted to alter their style, but Vader had an answer for every lunge, parry and riposte. His style borrowed elements from all techniques of combat, even from the highest, most dangerous levels, and his moves were crisp and unpredictable. In addition, his remarkable foresight allowed him to anticipate the Jedi strategies and maneuvers, his blade always one step ahead of theirs, notwithstanding the two-handed grip he employed."

 

"She felt as if she were fighting a droid, although a droid programmed to counter all her best stratagems."

 

"Calling on the Force, Starstone fell on him in a fury, striking wildly and repeatedly, and with anger. Moments into her attack she understood that Vader was merely allowing her to vent, as the Temple's swordmaster had often done with his students, allowing them to believe that they were driving him back, when in fact he was simply encouraging them to wear themselves out before disarming them in one rapid motion."

"He flicked his blade, precisely, economically, forcing her back and back..."

 

page 278.

 

Page 277

 

Forte and Kulka were skilled duelists, but Vader was not only faster than Starstone remembered him being on Murkhana against Master Chatak, but also more agile. He employed his awesome power to put a quick end to the fancy twirling of his opponents, who fell back against the hammering blows of Vader's bloodshine blade."

 

This was against, admittedly, two skilled duelists. He was also facing Starstone, Kulka, Forte, Jambe, Nam, and Klossi. None of them could match him. Against Roan Shryne, he slashed at his legs at one point and Vader leapt over his blow, twisted in the air, and landed behind him.

 

From force unleashed..

 

The apprentice crouched facedown in the snow, surrounded by rubble. His breath came in agonized, short gasps, but he was grateful for each one. He should be dead. That blow should have killed anyone. The fact that he was breathing testified to the one mistake his Master had done.

He had been rebuilt tougher than before.

 

Vader casually tossed him toward the icy cliff.

 

He though he was ready -and so the sheer severity of the opening blow took him by surprise.

A simple double stroke, up then down, it contained enough power to jar his wrist and shoulders and very nearly disarm him completely. The collision of their lightsabers was blinding. He staggered backward and found himself at the center of a Telekinetic storm. His Master seized on his momentary weakness and hurled missiles at him from all sides...

 

Darth Vader fought brilliantly, never employing anything less than a killing stroke. His intention was lethal. All he needed was one slip, one tiny gap in his opponent's defenses.

The apprentice vowed not to give him one...

 

The apprentice fell back under the rain of blows. The sizzling of fabric and a faint stink of burning skin told him that at least two of Darth Vader's misses had been horribly near...

 

Reaching out with his left hand, he blasted his Master with Sith Lightning. That broke the momentum of the furious onslaught, enabling him to stand and catch his breath. [...] The Dark Lord was instantly on his feet...

 

He beat back the telekinetic attack with one of his own, shoving his Master in the chest with the Force of a small explosion, throwing Darth Vader backward across the room.

For all his size and occasional clumsiness, the Dark Lord was sure on his feet. He landed upright and launched himself back into the fray.

 

Note that the apprentice had defeated multiple Jedi masters himself, was a power house in the force, and was extremely agile. If you want more sources. Go ahead. But it's obvious. Vader was by far one of the most powerful Sith. Even in his suit. Even Sidious regarded him as a threat.

 

Further in the first force unleashed, even the novel states that Galen Marek manages to blast Vader with a barrage of force lightning which knocks Vader off his feet. He then proceeded to rebound and blast towards Marek. Wookieepedia is edited by regular users and isn't infallible. Canonically Vader is far more resistant than any Sith in the Star Wars universe.

 

Also his hand being chopped off had NOTHING to do with it. He was missing his hand when he received the barrage of force lightning from force unleashed two. The ONLY thing that did Vader in was Sidious force lightning.

 

Vader, in the original force unleashed novel enhances his suit to be resistant to force lightning specifically so he could better fight Marek. Vader being weak to force lightning is a myth busted long ago.

 

We know Anakin defeated Dooku.

 

We know after Anakin's turn to Vader he became more powerful than he was as "anakin." he became a better duelist and more experienced as well.

 

We know Vader canonically has withstood the strongest force Lightning Shown.

 

We know for 100% certainty that Vader was very close to Sidious in terms of power.

 

We know Sidious originally was scared of him before he set up his clones.

 

We also know Sidious is the most powerful Sith, even before he became Sidious reborn

 

He's also had multiple 6-8 on one battles and came out on top. He's defeated powerful force users. Going toe to toe with the likes ofGalen Marek who has slain multiple Jedi masters himself. Vader has on his long list of accomplishments..

 

Killed 8 Jedi when they ambushed him. 8 on one.

 

He's killed Roan Shryne, Forte, Kulke, Master Chatak, Cin Drallig, Jambe, Nam, Klossi, Obi Wan, and more. Among those..

 

Many were masters. Cin Drallig was the weaponmaster. Obi Wan Kenobi was the best Soresu user in history. Dooku was the best Makashi user in history and Yoda's pupil. So two users are the best at their respective styles in history. According to Lucas Vader is 80% of Sidious. The most powerful Sith Lord in history. Galen Marek has defeated quite the impressive resume of Jedi masters as well and even took on the emperor after only beating Vader by a hair.

 

Just by those numbers alone those are 17 confirmed Jedi kills off the top of my head. Oh. 18. Galen's father.

 

Let's not forget that he himself is the best Djem So user in history and is well versed in various other styles

 

I miss Rhyltran...

 

Here's something from Rayla.

 

We have seen him survive impaling himself through his life support system with his lightsaber to kill Darth Maul, an entire temple collapsing on him and leaving him buried under that rubble for seven days before the 501st Stormtrooper division found him and rescued him, he survived a massive force storm from Galen Marek, one that was empowered by two lightning pylons, and Vader just went down on one knee for a moment and then stood back up, he was nigh unkillable, he was very similar to Sion, he lived off of his rage, hell I'd wager, if he hadn't given up the dark side and been redeemed, he still would've survived Sidious' lightning.

 

His Djem So proficiency was unlike any before him, a mere flick of his wrist could disarm the strongest opponents, he was an 8 foot tall machine of rage, as described in Rise of Lord Vader, he has had entire limbs cut off and still won, he faced an army of natives by himself, dealing massive casualties, before being overwhelmed.

 

You underestimate Vader, you underestimate him by a very large margin

 

Also, Galen Marek's Force storm variant of Lightning, could disintegrate Imperial Stormtroopers, his most intense lightning only put Vader on one knee, not too long later, Vader is talking to Galen as if nothing ever happened

 

Vader was killed by Sidious' lightning, simple, the most powerful lightning ever, that was combined with his life support system being damaged, and him letting go of the Dark Side, the thing that sustained him

 

Sidious is the most powerful practitioner of Force Lightning ever, he put his highest level of lightning directly into Vader, Vader managed to throw Sidious down the Death Star's shaft, survive all the way from Palpatine's observation tower to the hangar bay of the Death Star, a moon sized space station, and only then did he die, this death was amplified by the fact he couldn't breathe and he had let go of the Dark Side of the Force and the rage that sustained him for over 20 years.

 

Quotes. I would type all this out myself, but why would I do that when someone has done it for me.

 

But really, this doesn't matter. Who will listen? It will either be disregarded as fanboyism (even though I care little for Vader and think Malgus is cooler), or be reputed because Bane and Malgus are supposedly similar.

 

/sigh There went two hours of my time.

[hyperdragon]

 

Vader didn't need training from sidious. This was in the Essential Guide to the Force source book, Sidious LET Anakin be taken to the Jedi Order because it was better to have your enemy train your eventual apprentice then take them when they've got not much more to teach. Sidious did the same with Dooku! "Why train an apprentice to hate the jedi when the jedi can do it for you" (page 169 of the Selecting Apprentices Section). Sidious knew exactly what he was doing.

 

Also I heard that Luke was really the chosen one not Vader, but I can’t remember where I heard it so I could be wrong.

 

He was not, Vader (Anakin) was the chosen one.

 

Darth Vader was Palpatine's monster (as palpatine oh so eloquently put it).

 

The way I like to look at it is that Anakin was created by the force so i prefer to view him as "The Force Personified." Also it was Vader's job to learn as much as he can, not Palpatine's.

[Kaedusz]

Ok I can tell your just trolling, after clearly the evidence I shown or being ignorant and just not wanting to accept it so i'll just stop now since you won't take what is clearly shown right infront of you.

 

Uhm...?You take what i said personally as if i talking to you- i wasn't.

 

Anyway do you think my opinion of Vader is from the air?As every self-respecting SW fan,i have read the Rise of Darth Vader and the Revenge of the Sith novelization as well as some comics and also read the whole wookiepedia section about him.

Also i think he is really cool,i am always happy when a sith wipes the floor with some jedi,as he mostly did when facing the several jedi in that event,for example.

The evidence is up for interpretation in your best case scenario and he is equal to Malgus in my worst .But Vader to defeat Malgus outright in single combat,no way.

Edited March 29, 2013 by Kaedusz

[Oxades]

Ok so, “"Now that Vader had begun to tap deeply into the power of the dark side, his true apprenticeship can begin."

"More important, by the time Vader was capable of becoming a risk to his mastery, Sidious would be fully conversant with the secrets Plagueis had spent a lifetime seeking - the power over life and death. There would be no need to fear Vader. No need to have an apprentice other than to honor the tradition Darth Bane had resurrected a millenium earlier."

 

But I don’t see anything about fearing Vaders power, maybe Sidious was a feared of Vader killing him in his sleep?

 

And “Obi Wan Kenobi was the best Soresu user in history. Dooku was the best Makashi user in history and Yoda's pupil. So two users are the best at their respective styles in history”

 

But how do we know they were the best in history? There were only two Sith. The only duels the Jedi had were with each other. Ok so there form was great but it was only play fighting. So how can they be better than Jedi and Sith in TOR who had real battlefield experience?

 

I’m not disputing Vaders accomplishments, He is, always has been, and always will be, a BA. What I’m really disputing is the power of TCW era Jedi. I still believe that they had become weak do to the long time of peace and that is one of the reasons it was so easy for Soresu to wipe them out.

[Sporadicus]

When it comes to Vader and sidious (book wise) I tend to ignore it as the writers had to make their powers over the top to match luke. it got absurd and is some of the worst aspects about star wars in my opinion.

The palpatine clones.... made me cringe, I will admit cadus had some nice character changes but was still over the top. The issue is that Vader, Luke and palps are old characters, very old, regardless of the books, their man characters are in the films.

Unlike revan, bane, exarr kunn, tulak hord and so on.

this charecters are more powerful then the old as they are new and thus have more depth. also Darth Vader was ruined by Lucas and Hayden Christensen, Vader was arguably the coolest character in film. same with yoda, Did everyone not cringe when the somewhat lovable mental pupet of empire strikes back and return of the jedi first got his lightsaber out? then they turned hi into a 900 year old who does nothing but point out the obvious. (great job).

 

Luke, vader, palpatine , yoda were the original so they characters would be surpassed by more deeper characters.

So yoda, bane, kunn (even more recent plagius whom was cool, much better then palpatine as he was not one dimensional.

And if anyone says 'lucas said so' then what's the point in having a opinion. if all these cool and deep characters are made to which people in some form or way can relate to are made if people are going to just stick blindly to the destroyed Original cast. sorry for going on but this is a topic that you can easily type forever.

Also one more thing, their is a fine line between overpowered which makes the character a joke and not, case in question, revan and Luke/main force unleashed guy... umm star killer I think. just check wookipidia, revan fought the emporer and was never going to win one on one. he is more believable then lukes vs the immortal god.. Abeloth I think, anyways, sorry for going on, same for obi-wan, great character as he was believable he wasn't over powered, just a good fighter and strategist.

[Aurbere]

Ok so, “"Now that Vader had begun to tap deeply into the power of the dark side, his true apprenticeship can begin."

"More important, by the time Vader was capable of becoming a risk to his mastery, Sidious would be fully conversant with the secrets Plagueis had spent a lifetime seeking - the power over life and death. There would be no need to fear Vader. No need to have an apprentice other than to honor the tradition Darth Bane had resurrected a millenium earlier."

 

But I don’t see anything about fearing Vaders power, maybe Sidious was a feared of Vader killing him in his sleep?

 

Maybe. I can't speak for Rhyltran.

 

And “Obi Wan Kenobi was the best Soresu user in history. Dooku was the best Makashi user in history and Yoda's pupil. So two users are the best at their respective styles in history”

 

But how do we know they were the best in history?

 

Yoda is (G-Canon) the most powerful Jedi produced by the Jedi Order (Pre-Luke). His skill with the blade was matched by Mace Windu, and Count Dooku was known to be able to duel those two as an equal.

 

Count Dooku's mastery of Makashi was such that it was superior to the Makashi mastery of Yoda and Mace Windu.

 

Obi-Wan's mastery of Soresu allowed him to withstand the furious assault of Darth Vader's Djem So mastery on Mustafar. The only way he could win was by taking advantage of Vader's arrogance (a weakness he rectified after his humbling experience on Mustafar). Kenobi is acknowledged by Dooku and Mace Windu as the greatest user of Soresu in the history of the Jedi Order.

 

There were only two Sith. The only duels the Jedi had were with each other. Ok so there form was great but it was only play fighting. So how can they be better than Jedi and Sith in TOR who had real battlefield experience?

 

I’m not disputing Vaders accomplishments, He is, always has been, and always will be, a BA. What I’m really disputing is the power of TCW era Jedi. I still believe that they had become weak do to the long time of peace and that is one of the reasons it was so easy for Soresu to wipe them out.

 

I've been over this with Ventessel before. Instead of getting into it with you, I will refer you to George Lucas, Leland Chee, The Jedi Path, Jedi vs. Sith, and pretty much any other sourcebook on Jedi and Sith.

[Oxades]

Maybe. I can't speak for Rhyltran.

 

 

 

Yoda is (G-Canon) the most powerful Jedi produced by the Jedi Order (Pre-Luke). His skill with the blade was matched by Mace Windu, and Count Dooku was known to be able to duel those two as an equal.

 

Count Dooku's mastery of Makashi was such that it was superior to the Makashi mastery of Yoda and Mace Windu.

 

Obi-Wan's mastery of Soresu allowed him to withstand the furious assault of Darth Vader's Djem So mastery on Mustafar. The only way he could win was by taking advantage of Vader's arrogance (a weakness he rectified after his humbling experience on Mustafar). Kenobi is acknowledged by Dooku and Mace Windu as the greatest user of Soresu in the history of the Jedi Order.

 

 

 

I've been over this with Ventessel before. Instead of getting into it with you, I will refer you to George Lucas, Leland Chee, The Jedi Path, Jedi vs. Sith, and pretty much any other sourcebook on Jedi and Sith.

 

The Jedi Path, Jedi vs. Sith. Thank you for the book name, I’ll look it up.

[Aurbere]

Found a Darth Vader vs. Darth Malgus thread! Here's a quote from Rayla.

 

Simply put, Malgus has nothing Vader.

 

Malgus has SIth Lightning, congratulations that isn't going to do much at all.

 

He has great endurance, he's facing Darth Vader who is basically the epitome of the Sith Juggernaut style of Sith.

 

He is a great practitioner of Shien, Vader is the greatest practitioner of Shien ever.

 

He achieved oneness with the Dark Side, Vader was rage incarnate.

 

Vader has pretty much out-classed Malgus in every sense.

 

/endthread? I believe so.

[Preventer-Blaze]

Found a Darth Vader vs. Darth Malgus thread! Here's a quote from Rayla.

 

 

 

/endthread? I believe so.

 

Me too.

Couldn't have show any better than you already have.

[Wolfninjajedi]

Me too.

Couldn't have show any better than you already have.

 

What am I, chopped liver?!

[Preventer-Blaze]

What am I, chopped liver?!

 

Sorry, sorry, clearly you already was making most of the best points, ya know.

 

I only wanted to believe in the /closethread (but we know this isn't true..).

[Beniboybling]

Let's face it this was never a debate in the first place, the way people are conducting themselves is just annoying me now - if Vader had Canon on his side or would be acceptable but he does not, so there is plenty of room to have this discussion. But instead I'm met with a barrage of stats and insults and quotes from bygone threads of people doing the sane thing. I'm out.

 

/unsubscribe

[Ventessel]

When it comes to Vader and sidious (book wise) I tend to ignore it as the writers had to make their powers over the top to match luke. it got absurd and is some of the worst aspects about star wars in my opinion.

The palpatine clones.... made me cringe, I will admit cadus had some nice character changes but was still over the top. The issue is that Vader, Luke and palps are old characters, very old, regardless of the books, their man characters are in the films.

Unlike revan, bane, exarr kunn, tulak hord and so on.

this charecters are more powerful then the old as they are new and thus have more depth. also Darth Vader was ruined by Lucas and Hayden Christensen, Vader was arguably the coolest character in film. same with yoda, Did everyone not cringe when the somewhat lovable mental pupet of empire strikes back and return of the jedi first got his lightsaber out? then they turned hi into a 900 year old who does nothing but point out the obvious. (great job).

 

Luke, vader, palpatine , yoda were the original so they characters would be surpassed by more deeper characters.

So yoda, bane, kunn (even more recent plagius whom was cool, much better then palpatine as he was not one dimensional.

And if anyone says 'lucas said so' then what's the point in having a opinion. if all these cool and deep characters are made to which people in some form or way can relate to are made if people are going to just stick blindly to the destroyed Original cast. sorry for going on but this is a topic that you can easily type forever.

Also one more thing, their is a fine line between overpowered which makes the character a joke and not, case in question, revan and Luke/main force unleashed guy... umm star killer I think. just check wookipidia, revan fought the emporer and was never going to win one on one. he is more believable then lukes vs the immortal god.. Abeloth I think, anyways, sorry for going on, same for obi-wan, great character as he was believable he wasn't over powered, just a good fighter and strategist.

 

I really like what you're saying here, it's a breath of fresh air from a narrative standpoint. It does make things very boring to have the characters of the films elevated impossibly.

Also, Yoda and Sidious should never have picked up lightsabers. It introduced an absurdity to their characters that was quite infuriating. Their duel should have taken place exclusively through the Force, since Sidious not only thought of lightsabers as "Jedi weapons" but disdained them entirely. Yoda should have been smart enough to realize that his physical nature makes it silly to use a lightsaber when he has the Force.

Yoda is (G-Canon) the most powerful Jedi produced by the Jedi Order (Pre-Luke). His skill with the blade was matched by Mace Windu, and Count Dooku was known to be able to duel those two as an equal.

Count Dooku's mastery of Makashi was such that it was superior to the Makashi mastery of Yoda and Mace Windu.

I've been over this with Ventessel before. Instead of getting into it with you, I will refer you to George Lucas, Leland Chee, The Jedi Path, Jedi vs. Sith, and pretty much any other sourcebook on Jedi and Sith.

 

Heh, we certainly have. The issue with those sourcebooks is their perspective, however. They're used to reinforce many arguments on these forums, but the information in most of them is either quite dated by this point or otherwise (in the case of The Jedi Path) intentionally written from the perspective of characters trapped within the paradigms of the fiction they exist within, they are not arbitrarily divine sources of information. So there is some room for analyzing those types of sources.

And “Obi Wan Kenobi was the best Soresu user in history. Dooku was the best Makashi user in history and Yoda's pupil. So two users are the best at their respective styles in history”

 

But how do we know they were the best in history? There were only two Sith. The only duels the Jedi had were with each other. Ok so there form was great but it was only play fighting. So how can they be better than Jedi and Sith in TOR who had real battlefield experience?

 

I’m not disputing Vaders accomplishments, He is, always has been, and always will be, a BA. What I’m really disputing is the power of TCW era Jedi. I still believe that they had become weak do to the long time of peace and that is one of the reasons it was so easy for Soresu to wipe them out.

 

That's a big issue, and while the PT/TCW Era Jedi were heavily discussed on this thread, one thing that we never got into was the fact that TOR didn't even exist when the majority of the sources which confirm the power of the PT/TCW Era Jedi were written.

Edited March 30, 2013 by Ventessel

[Ventessel]

From another interview with Drew Karpyshyn, some useful analysis into comparing "top-tier" characters like the ones being discussed here:

"Who’s stronger – Darth Bane, Darth Revan or Darth Vader?

 

It’s a tie. Seriously, I can’t answer this. First, it’s not really up to me to make that kind of call. Second, it really depends on the situation. You can probably find rule books for various Star Wars role-playing games that will give you stats allowing you to compare relative strength. But from an artistic and dramatic standpoint, this kind of question has no “right” answer. Each character has strengths and weaknesses, and they grow and change as their stories progress. On any given day, at any given time, under any given circumstance anyone can win or lose. That’s what dramatic conflict is all about."

 

Basically, any of the characters being discussed here could feasibly defeat the others, depending on the conditions present. Vader does have considerable advantages, but that's assuming a "perfect fight" where each combatant is fairly allowed to bring all their advantages to the table... and no Sith in their right mind gets into an even fight if they can help it.