Dungeon Finder did not create bad people.

[Chevex]

I've seen a lot of people expressing their opinions that the WoW dungeon finder and similar tools from other games "ruin communities" and create so many "bad players". This is a very naive perspective in my opinion.

 

The players didn't change. All that happened was everyone had easier access to a lot more people in shorter periods of time. Having that access allowed you to actually meet the bad players that you otherwise wouldn't have met without the dungeon finder.

 

Saying dungeon finder ruins communities is like saying Facebook ruins marriages. No it doesn't. The guy didn't become a lying & cheating loser because of Facebook; he just got caught because of Facebook. Stop blaming the tools and blame the people.

 

SWTOR flash point finder for the win!

 

EDIT: Update

 

A BioWare dev recently commented in another "dungeon finder" thread and I was a little disappointed to see the philosophical stand they are taking against a cross-server "Flashpoint finder". Here is the dev's post followed by my two cents. I hope that enough people would agree with me and make enough noise that one day we will have the opportunity to queue up as a specific role and instantly be grouped with some potential new friends and run an instance together. In my opinion, improved ways to spam general aren't enough.

 

------------------

Improving our LFG system is high on the list of features that Systems Design wants to add to the game. We want this to be good not just for helping people find Flashpoints and Operations to run, but also other multiplayer content like heroic missions. A key emphasis will be on advertising for specific role needs (healer, tank, DPS). This feature is currently in the design stage, and once this feature has moved beyond this to a development stage and has a firm ETA, I'll be coming back to you guys to give more details.

 

We've known we would need to revisit this feature for a while. In the level-up game, finding players isn't too rough because, with few exceptions, everyone in that level band is either on your planet or on the fleet. Once more and more players hit endgame, and are spending their time in more places, the need for this feature is going to increase. Note that right now, high level players have the opposite problem - there aren't enough other players up there to group with. This problem will dissipate as the game ages, and more players reach the later levels.

 

That being said, our design team doesn't philosophically believe that cross-server Flashpoints are good for the game at this stage in the game's lifespan. There is huge social pressure to not be a jerk that goes away when the odds that you will never see these people again is high. I'm not saying never - there may come a time in the future where we reevaluate this - but at least in the short term, we believe this will cause more damage to the community than good.

 

I appreciate BioWare taking such great care of the community and improving the LFG system will be a huge step. However, I want to give my two cents about the LFG tool. I know that tons of people are screaming at the tops of their lungs for this not to happen, but I think it's silly.

 

While I disagree with this magic "social pressure" that everyone keeps talking about, let me just pretend for the sake of the point I want to make that it's true and an LFG tool like the one found in games like World of Warcraft would indeed cause people to undergo a paradigm shift and turn into a jerk. This problem is fixable. Just like how a Youtube comment can get voted down to the point where it is practically invisible, so can a player. Provide us with an LFG tool but also provide us with the tools to leave player feedback that actually affects them. The more negative feedback a player gets the fewer privileges they should have. Or at the very least just make your system prioritize players with good or neutral feedback so that they are grouped together more often.

 

This would allow players to actually build a reputation that even a perfect stranger that has never played with someone before would benefit from. The current player "reputation" that everyone keeps saying becomes tarnished by an LFD tool is ethereal; it's not tangible and it's completely subjective. I would instead suggest that you provide us with the tools to group up automatically from anywhere (yes, just like WoW) but also enhance that experience by focusing on tools that improve community interaction. I don't buy the idea that a flash point finding tool is doomed to ruin communities. Don't give up on the tool, adapt it and modify it so that it performs its job better and with less side effects.

 

In addition to this player feedback tool you could build in some functionality that prevents users from doing certain things that are frowned upon. Being able to roll need on an item that is not intended for you is silly and completely reliant on the "honor system" to work. Make it impossible for a smuggler to roll need on trooper gear, etc. As far as I'm aware Blizzard has already done this with great success.

 

I believe there are great ways you can coax a community to behave and innovative game mechanics are definitely capable of doing that. I believe that condemning a valuable feature like cross-server grouping tools is a bad way to react. I believe these tools can be just as useful as in other games while at the same time not having the same nasty side effects. Take it to the drawing board and improve it. Don't just leave it on the cutting room floor.

Edited January 13, 2012 by Chevex

[leckmichdochfett]

agreed. and pls bioware consider a Arenasystem

 

u even have a pvpstat that u can use to balance the classes

[Varghjerta]

I've seen a lot of people expressing their opinions that the WoW dungeon finder and similar tools from other games "ruin communities" and create so many "bad players". This is a very naive perspective in my opinion.

 

The players didn't change. All that happened was everyone had easier access to a lot more people in shorter periods of time. Having that access allowed you to actually meet the bad players that you otherwise wouldn't have met without the dungeon finder.

 

Saying dungeon finder ruins communities is like saying Facebook ruins marriages. No it doesn't. The guy didn't become a lying & cheating loser because of Facebook; he just got caught because of Facebook. Stop blaming the tools and blame the people.

 

SWTOR flash point finder for the win!

 

Actually when in youre example the guy can cheat all wants without any will know then .........................

[Chevex]

Actually when in youre example the guy can cheat all wants without any will know then .........................

 

Either I suddenly turned dyslexic or that made absolutely no sense at all.

[Zones]

You make a false statement OP. The fact that the dungeons were completely anonymous and people would never be held responsible for their actions resulted in a gross decline in manners.

 

Between server changes and random queues people could get away with anything and never be held responsible for their behavior.

[Kholvan]

No, it absolutely did create bad people. It did so by removing even the slightest hint of accountability for being a jerk. It's a lot like legalizing theft and then saying "don't blame us - we didn't break into anyone's houses"

[taekwondoboy]

no it didnt, just lazy people.

[TradewindNQ]

You make a false statement OP. The fact that the dungeons were completely anonymous and people would never be held responsible for their actions resulted in a gross decline in manners.

 

Between server changes and random queues people could get away with anything and never be held responsible for their behavior.

 

Being a dick in LFD groups is not the same as being a bad player.

 

Bad player = "I stand in fire!"

[Chevex]

No, it absolutely did create bad people. It did so by removing even the slightest hint of accountability for being a jerk. It's a lot like legalizing theft and then saying "don't blame us - we didn't break into anyone's houses"

 

You make a false statement OP. The fact that the dungeons were completely anonymous and people would never be held responsible for their actions resulted in a gross decline in manners.

 

Between server changes and random queues people could get away with anything and never be held responsible for their behavior.

 

Anonymous? I distinctly remember seeing the players' realm and character name. Plenty enough information to report players behaving inappropriately. How is that any different than finding a random jerk in general chat? I would report him the same way I would anyone else. What is your version of being held accountable? Seems to me like the only thing you can do to ANYONE in an MMO is report them, whether they are on the same server or not.

Edited December 20, 2011 by Chevex

[FerrusPA]

No, it absolutely did create bad people. It did so by removing even the slightest hint of accountability for being a jerk.

 

Which only goes to show how terrible the community was in the first place.

[Zones]

Anonymous? I distinctly remember seeing the players' realm and character name. Plenty enough information to report players behaving inappropriately. How is that any different than finding a random jerk in general chat? I would report him the same way I would anyone else. What is your version of being held accountable? Seems to me like the only thing you can do to ANYONE in an MMO is report them, whether they are on the same server or not.

 

 

 

Being a ninja isn't reportable. Being a jerk isn't reportable. Most of the reasons I hate wow currently is because of the behavior which isn't reportable, behavior which was kept in line when wow USED to have a community.

[BrimstoneAshe]

You make a false statement OP. The fact that the dungeons were completely anonymous and people would never be held responsible for their actions resulted in a gross decline in manners.

 

Between server changes and random queues people could get away with anything and never be held responsible for their behavior.

 

So you're saying that bad players didn't exist before dungeon finders? They did. You're saying they paid some "social price" for it? They didn't. You're going to come across a jerk in SWTOR and when you get out of your flashpoint you're going to go to General and say "No one group with this person!" and then there will be flaming back and forth and no one will remember that persons name. They'll get right back into another group.

 

If you've played SWTOR for a few hours you've no doubt already been ninja'd on a quest or two. Remember their names? Are they suffering some sort of social price for their behavior? Nope.

[Kholvan]

What is your version of being held accountable? Seems to me like the only thing you can do to ANYONE in an MMO is report them, whether they are on the same server or not.

 

The accountability in question is when the guy ends up LFG for the rest of his career because after a while no one on his server will group with him. When he's just DPS#378928, even if he by remote chance happens to run into someone he's grouped with before and gets kicked - he can just go back to the finder for no real pain.

[Chevex]

I would argue that the same amount of ***** existed before dungeon finder. You just didn't notice until it became so easy to get grouped with them. I don't buy the argument that people suddenly become nice because they are playing with people on the same realm that they found in chat. How is that any less anonymous than dungeon finder? If I wanted to be a dick, being on the same realm as you wouldn't stop me.

[Chevex]

Being a ninja isn't reportable. Being a jerk isn't reportable. Most of the reasons I hate wow currently is because of the behavior which isn't reportable, behavior which was kept in line when wow USED to have a community.

 

Those things were happening long before dungeon finder. I remember vividly.

[imtrick]

The players didn't change. All that happened was everyone had easier access to a lot more people in shorter periods of time. Having that access allowed you to actually meet the bad players that you otherwise wouldn't have met without the dungeon finder.

 

That's not "all that happened" by any means. Cross-server dungeon finders also created a situation where players would group with people they knew they'd most likely never see again. That's huge. It's a far bigger issue than just facilitating groups.

[Excedrin]

False. In fact, no bad people existed before 2004 when WoW created them and ruined everything. It's no coincidence that economic collapse faces several nations a mere few years after its launch.

 

If Bioware wants to be successful they should do everything opposite of what Blizzard does. This is how you prevent bad people from ruining everything.

 

The forums have taught me well. I know the truth now.

[Chevex]

The accountability in question is when the guy ends up LFG for the rest of his career because after a while no one on his server will group with him. When he's just DPS#378928, even if he by remote chance happens to run into someone he's grouped with before and gets kicked - he can just go back to the finder for no real pain.

 

I think this is an unfounded anecdote. There were thousands of people on my server. The ***** always found groups, even amidst the noise of a few people saying "DON'T GROUP WITH HIM!" It didn't stop people from being jerks.

[BrimstoneAshe]

The accountability in question is when the guy ends up LFG for the rest of his career because after a while no one on his server will group with him. When he's just DPS#378928, even if he by remote chance happens to run into someone he's grouped with before and gets kicked - he can just go back to the finder for no real pain.

 

Doesnt take long for a jerk to show their colors though does it? So you kick them and the tool fills their spot immediately. You move on and keep playing. Sorry, the whole "social punishment" sounds good in theory but doesn't work in reality.

 

But regardless there's an easy fix. Just make an option to flag someone as someone you dont want to group with again. A glorified "ignore list" for flashpoints. Let the flashpoint tool use that as it puts the groups together. If that person is a jerk, he'll eventually get flagged enough to where he's sitting in a queue for a long time.

[thagstr]

Early on in Wow people would actually fear being "black balled" in their server for being a jerk or ninja, dungeon finder erased that. Simple as that.

[snooggums]

No, it absolutely did create bad people. It did so by removing even the slightest hint of accountability for being a jerk. It's a lot like legalizing theft and then saying "don't blame us - we didn't break into anyone's houses"

 

Odd, in all of the RDF groups I was in when I played WoW only a small percentage had actual jerks in it that tried to ruin the fun for others.

 

There were a lot of loot crybabies (i.e. those that tried to tell everyone else what to do), players who were very bad at their character/intoxicated who couldn't even meet my very low standards for their role, and players who disconnected or afkd. I was able to kick all of those players unless they were a group of guild members.

 

Many people think there was a large number of griefers in wow, but that is only because a player who pressed the Need button was apparently a griefer if it wasn't their BiS for their current role. That will skew some viewpoints.

[Zones]

Those things were happening long before dungeon finder. I remember vividly.

 

A fraction of the time. Pretending it's otherwise is just pure silly and will be ignored.

[FerrusPA]

That's not "all that happened" by any means. Cross-server dungeon finders also created a situation where players would group with people they knew they'd most likely never see again. That's huge. It's a far bigger issue than just facilitating groups.

 

I ran into a lot of terrible (=unskilled) people when using the DF. Standing in fire, breaking CC and all that jazz. So by your logic these people became unskilled and plain dumb because they had no reason to pay attention to what they were doing as long as someone dragged them through the dungeon.

 

Anonymity is an incentive, true enough. But even before the DF, PUGing was pure horror. Ninjaing was rampant. Hell, some servers had entire guilds who were renowned for being terrible and antisocial. Somehow they managed to survive however.

 

A tool doesn't make the retard. The retard makes for retarded grouping via the tool.

[reverendsaintjay]

So you're saying that bad players didn't exist before dungeon finders? They did. You're saying they paid some "social price" for it? They didn't. You're going to come across a jerk in SWTOR and when you get out of your flashpoint you're going to go to General and say "No one group with this person!" and then there will be flaming back and forth and no one will remember that persons name. They'll get right back into another group.

 

If you've played SWTOR for a few hours you've no doubt already been ninja'd on a quest or two. Remember their names? Are they suffering some sort of social price for their behavior? Nope.

 

No social price? Have you ever played an end-game tank or healer? I had a level 80 resto Sham for LK, and I can remember at least 5 times that I had someone removed from my group because they were on my ignore list.

 

You anger enough heals and tanks on your server and pretty soon your only options are a faction or server change. And even then that's no guarantee that you didn't anger someone badly enough to stalk you to your next location.

 

The dungeon finder eliminated the need to be polite or courteous in group, if one healer ignored you there was a steady stream of people queued up to take their place.

[ThanosTitan]

You make a false statement OP. The fact that the dungeons were completely anonymous and people would never be held responsible for their actions resulted in a gross decline in manners.

 

Between server changes and random queues people could get away with anything and never be held responsible for their behavior.

 

Seriously? Name one person ever who ever faced any sort of real world consequence for bad behavior in a game? No one gets held responsible for their actions, that's the WHOLE POINT OF VIDEO GAMES. The LFG tool was a huge boon to the WoW community and made alot of the more repetitive tasks easier and less time consuming. Its real easy to say you dont need the lfg when your half level cap and only done 5 flashpoints total. But you think your gonna wastes 20 minutes extra looking for strangers at lvl 50 when your on FP# 698?This game would benefit alot if it would just get over itself about WoW. You think they hit 12 million with tricks and cutesy images? This aint Maple Story. To not take the most basic advances in most modern mmos simply cause you hate teh last guy who did it (not the first even mind you) is insane. Unless there is a massive shift in the developer and player base to immediately not shoot down proven ideas simply cause its slightly similar to a WoW system. Everyday this game feels more and more and more like Galaxies.