Expertise: Max or 1200 - Debate has ended

[Xerain]

ok fair enough. one can grind for it

 

Yeah... grind... right. One of those Items probably has your BIS EWH Mod in it anyways so you're going to be picking them up.

[ArchangelLBC]

I have to disagree with you there.

By alot.

 

Cool story bro.

 

Exactly, which is why it's funny that people are spending millions upon millions of credits for really nothing. They just think it's better.

 

Well like I said, its helpful to remember that there was a time when offhands weren't moddable and elite war hero belt/bracers didn't exist. The tradeoff between PVE amorings in orange belt/bracers was an overall better return for the expertise loss than it is now, and power crystals were a lot cheaper then too. Old guides and methods of thought persist and then they change things and no one goes back to change the guides.

 

Also I mean really millions upon millions? Opportunity loss maybe if you aren't selling the stabalizers but getting the mats is not a significant time investment.

 

Also for people who are dinging 50 on an alt, there is the fact that you can ding into 63 level hilts/barrels and then spend all those commendations you've built up rounding out the rest of your set rather than spending a significant portion of your commendations on a mainhand weapon and then an even more significant portion of your saved ranked commendations for the elite war hero version (and if you aren't a dual wielding class thats a barrel or hilt wasted).

 

I dunno about you, but getting the 8 stabalizers and 2 matrices for a hilt or barrel is a lot quicker than grinding out 3475 ranked commendations on top of 1475 normal commendations. That's basically what my sentinel did.

[Xerain]

Cool story bro.

 

 

 

Well like I said, its helpful to remember that there was a time when offhands weren't moddable and elite war hero belt/bracers didn't exist. The tradeoff between PVE amorings in orange belt/bracers was an overall better return for the expertise loss than it is now, and power crystals were a lot cheaper then too. Old guides and methods of thought persist and then they change things and no one goes back to change the guides.

 

Also I mean really millions upon millions? Opportunity loss maybe if you aren't selling the stabalizers but getting the mats is not a significant time investment.

 

Also for people who are dinging 50 on an alt, there is the fact that you can ding into 63 level hilts/barrels and then spend all those commendations you've built up rounding out the rest of your set rather than spending a significant portion of your commendations on a mainhand weapon and then an even more significant portion of your saved ranked commendations for the elite war hero version (and if you aren't a dual wielding class thats a barrel or hilt wasted).

 

I dunno about you, but getting the 8 stabalizers and 2 matrices for a hilt or barrel is a lot quicker than grinding out 3475 ranked commendations on top of 1475 normal commendations. That's basically what my sentinel did.

 

Or you can not be bad and learn how to ding 50 with like 20k comms.

[UGLYMRJ]

Exactly, which is why it's funny that people are spending millions upon millions of credits for really nothing. They just think it's better.

 

IDK, I see your point of the argument where increased damage = mitigation etc...

 

But in a game where dropping people as quickly as possible becomes key, I feel like any extra damage that can be done is useful.

 

Isn't bonus damage with 1300+ expertise around 650-700? Where as with 1200 expertise you can push that 950-1000 bonus damage mark.

 

Just off the top of my head but when killing stuff quick is the difference between a win and a loss I feel like it's worth the effort and credits.

 

I guess that argument can go both ways too when considering that living longer is nearly as important as killing quickly.

 

Again... an argument of many variables.

Edited February 5, 2013 by UGLYMRJ

[Xerain]

IDK, I see your point of the argument where increased damage = mitigation etc...

 

But in a game where dropping people as quickly as possible becomes key, I feel like any extra damage that can be done is useful.

 

Isn't bonus damage with 1300+ expertise around 650-700? Where as with 1200 expertise you can push that 950-1000 bonus damage mark.

 

Just off the top of my head but when killing stuff quick is the difference between a win and a loss I feel like it's worth the effort and credits.

 

I guess that argument can go both ways too when considering that living longer is nearly as important as killing quickly.

 

Again... an argument of many variables.

 

300 bonus damage, naw bro.

[Stealios]

Isn't bonus damage with 1300+ expertise around 650-700? Where as with 1200 expertise you can push that 950-1000 bonus damage mark.

 

The difference in bonus damage is not that big. by dropping from 1300 to 1200 expertise you'll gain about 20-30 bonus damage. not 300

[Scotland]

Cool story bro.

 

 

Don't hate me for being right.

[CharterMonkKent]

Yeah... grind... right. One of those Items probably has your BIS EWH Mod in it anyways so you're going to be picking them up.

 

yes grind... ... .... . . . .....

 

What you're talking about is a crazy amount of belts and bracers. 8 toons x 4 each = 32 minimum. And that's if each toon had one set of pvp armoring. Reality is my healer/dps have two sets and my tank/dps have two sets.

 

It's easier to get higher stat pve armorings. I don't know who is spending millions on this. A statement like that makes me think people don't know what they are talking about. If you spend a million+ on a 27 armoring you got taken for a ride. M.Stabalizers are incredibly easy to get in this game.

[UGLYMRJ]

What's bonus damage at approx with a full WH set, and then a min/max WH set?

 

It's been a while but I thought it was around the 700 mark.... then again, I normally buy my PvE armorings pretty early. IDK, I def feel a difference in damage done as I'm tweaking my gear. While the debate looks good on paper I stick with what feels like it's working and I can say that I feel like the extra damage done is well worth the expertise drop.

[ArchangelLBC]

Or you can not be bad and learn how to ding 50 with like 20k comms.

 

Perhaps but those 20k comms are much better spent min/maxing a full set of gear instead of mostly just getting a weapon =P

 

Besides what about my post history leads you to believe I can be anything except a bad?

 

IDK, I see your point of the argument where increased damage = mitigation etc...

 

But in a game where dropping people as quickly as possible becomes key, I feel like any extra damage that can be done is useful.

 

Isn't bonus damage with 1300+ expertise around 650-700? Where as with 1200 expertise you can push that 950-1000 bonus damage mark.

 

Just off the top of my head but when killing stuff quick is the difference between a win and a loss I feel like it's worth the effort and credits.

 

I guess that argument can go both ways too when considering that living longer is nearly as important as killing quickly.

 

Again... an argument of many variables.

 

I'm not so good at the maths but I'm pretty sure 82 power and 66 main stat (2 power crystals and 2 level 63 pve armorings over 63 pvp armorings) doesn't translate to 300 bonus damage. If I recall the numbers right you're looking at a little over 34 bonus damage max for sent/mara. About 35.36 if the class has a 9% bonus to mainstat.

 

Don't hate me for being right.

 

And you're right because? Back up your claim or get out really. You really think the expertise difference is going to provide any kind of truly noticeable (nevermind significant) increase in TTL in a situation where you're under significant focus fire? Like I said, that's a pretty cool story.

 

I gave your response all the thought and consideration you gave my post. If you aren't gonna make an argument I see no point to engaging further in this little debate with you.

Edited February 5, 2013 by ArchangelLBC

[Xerain]

yes grind... ... .... . . . .....

 

What you're talking about is a crazy amount of belts and bracers. 8 toons x 4 each = 32 minimum. And that's if each toon had one set of pvp armoring. Reality is my healer/dps have two sets and my tank/dps have two sets.

 

It's easier to get higher stat pve armorings. I don't know who is spending millions on this. A statement like that makes me think people don't know what they are talking about. If you spend a million+ on a 27 armoring you got taken for a ride. M.Stabalizers are incredibly easy to get in this game.

 

You need to use pve set bonus for 8 toons?! WHAT?! If a mod is BIS in one of those two items you're going to be pulling what 7 at least hopefully?! That's 7 extra armorings for your 1 class. :| That's enough for main spec and offspec because you don't need to 4pc everything as an operative.

 

Oh and some of us are so rich that we actually bought our 27 armorings like hot off the drops when they were few and far between. Before it was easy to grind out the Stabs.

[UGLYMRJ]

Yeah.... like I said... just off the top of my head, hard to remember when I'm not looking at it and it's been a while since I've had a fresh 50.

[CharterMonkKent]

You need to use pve set bonus for 8 toons?! WHAT?! If a mod is BIS in one of those two items you're going to be pulling what 7 at least hopefully?! That's 7 extra armorings for your 1 class. :| That's enough for main spec and offspec because you don't need to 4pc everything as an operative.

 

Oh and some of us are so rich that we actually bought our 27 armorings like hot off the drops when they were few and far between. Before it was easy to grind out the Stabs.

 

Maybe?!?!?!???

 

haha. these forums are so terrible. we are all wasting so much time

[Xerain]

Perhaps but those 20k comms are much better spent min/maxing a full set of gear instead of mostly just getting a weapon =P

 

Besides what about my post history leads you to believe I can be anything except a bad?

 

 

 

I'm not so good at the maths but I'm pretty sure 81 power and 66 main stat (2 power crystals and 2 level 63 pve armorings over 63 pvp armorings) doesn't translate to 300 bonus damage. If I recall the numbers right you're looking at a little over 34 bonus damage max for sent/mara. About 35.36 if the class has a 9% bonus to mainstat.

 

YOu should be able to min/max WH from those comms and have enough to do belt and bracers.

[Xerain]

Maybe?!?!?!???

 

haha. these forums are so terrible. we are all wasting so much time

 

Wait... isn't that the point of video games?

[Scotland]

Perhaps but those 20k comms are much better spent min/maxing a full set of gear instead of mostly just getting a weapon =P

 

Besides what about my post history leads you to believe I can be anything except a bad?

 

 

 

I'm not so good at the maths but I'm pretty sure 82 power and 66 main stat (2 power crystals and 2 level 63 pve armorings over 63 pvp armorings) doesn't translate to 300 bonus damage. If I recall the numbers right you're looking at a little over 34 bonus damage max for sent/mara. About 35.36 if the class has a 9% bonus to mainstat.

 

 

 

And you're right because? Back up your claim or get out really. You really think the expertise difference is going to provide any kind of truly noticeable (nevermind significant) increase in TTL in a situation where you're under significant focus fire? Like I said, that's a pretty cool story.

 

I gave your response all the thought and consideration you gave my post. If you aren't gonna make an argument I see no point to engaging further in this little debate with you.

 

 

If you think being squishy is good for your team, then pls continue wearing what you do. I know what the quality of PVP is like on the bastion, i have toons there, but yes now it all makes sense, i now know why you guys die so easily, you're all running around with 1100 expertise. LOL.

 

When you get a chance to fight against some decent competition and you're low expertise is still being succesful then pls, come back here and prove me wrong, until then, ill continue to derp you bastion kids around for funnsies.

Edited February 5, 2013 by Scotland

[ArchangelLBC]

YOu should be able to min/max WH from those comms and have enough to do belt and bracers.

 

Yep, absolutely.

 

 

As long as I don't have to spend 3475 ranked comms on an elite warhero weapon after spending 1475 on a war hero mainhand. That doesn't leave me any more room. Bracers cost 1250 ranked comms and 550 normal comms a piece and that's assuming you have a pair of bracers with a good power mod. Knights/Warriors have to use belts and those are 1425 ranked comms and 625 normals a piece. That adds up fast.

 

Unless you mean gaming the system by continually buying stuff with comms and then refunding them to basically store comms, but that's honestly way more effort than I'm willing to invest while leveling a lowbie.

 

If you think being squishy is good for your team, then pls continue wearing what you do. I know what the quality of PVP is like on the bastion, i have toons there, but yes now it all makes sense, i now know why you guys die so easily, you're all running around with 1100 expertise. LOL.

 

When you get a chacne to fight against some decent competition and you're low expertise is still being succesful then pls, come back here and prove me wrong, until then, ill continue to derp you bastion kids around for funnsies.

 

Since a) I play on Shadowlands and b) we're talking about 1214 expertise, not 1100, your point is kind of invalid. If you're referring to my anecdotal comment about tough to take down tanks with 1100 expertise and a ludicrous amount of HP then take it for what it was. Anecdotal. I'm not a tank, I'm not well versed in the absolute best way to maximize time to live in warzones, but its kind of an age old problem in MMOs so others are pretty versed in that argument and I'll let them handle it.

Edited February 5, 2013 by ArchangelLBC

[Xerain]

Yep, absolutely.

 

 

As long as I don't have to spend 3475 ranked comms on an elite warhero weapon after spending 1475 on a war hero mainhand. That doesn't leave me any more room. Bracers cost 1250 ranked comms and 550 normal comms a piece and that's assuming you have a pair of bracers with a good power mod. Knights/Warriors have to use belts and those are 1425 ranked comms and 625 normals a piece. That adds up fast.

 

Unless you mean gaming the system by continually buying stuff with comms and then refunding them to basically store comms, but that's honestly way more effort than I'm willing to invest while leveling a lowbie.

 

That's exactly what I meant. And you just pvp from like 40-50 and do this.

[Smashbrother]

Well like I said, its helpful to remember that there was a time when offhands weren't moddable and elite war hero belt/bracers didn't exist. The tradeoff between PVE amorings in orange belt/bracers was an overall better return for the expertise loss than it is now, and power crystals were a lot cheaper then too. Old guides and methods of thought persist and then they change things and no one goes back to change the guides.

 

Power crystals are still cheap as ****. It might not be the color you want, but they're like 50k.

 

Also I mean really millions upon millions? Opportunity loss maybe if you aren't selling the stabalizers but getting the mats is not a significant time investment.

 

Mats which you could sell for millions of credits. So even if you gathered mats yourself, it's still costing you millions of credits because you could have sold those mats instead.

 

Also for people who are dinging 50 on an alt, there is the fact that you can ding into 63 level hilts/barrels and then spend all those commendations you've built up rounding out the rest of your set rather than spending a significant portion of your commendations on a mainhand weapon and then an even more significant portion of your saved ranked commendations for the elite war hero version (and if you aren't a dual wielding class thats a barrel or hilt wasted).

 

Problem is you still need to spend comms on getting extra mod and enhancements anyways to put into your MH/OH if you go that route.

 

I dunno about you, but getting the 8 stabalizers and 2 matrices for a hilt or barrel is a lot quicker than grinding out 3475 ranked commendations on top of 1475 normal commendations. That's basically what my sentinel did.

 

You're gonna have to grind out the weapon one way or another so you can upgrade it for future, unless you plan on spending millions of credits each time a new tier comes out.

[ArchangelLBC]

That's exactly what I meant. And you just pvp from like 40-50 and do this.

 

Still way more effort than I'm willing to invest being constantly on top of trading back in the stuff every 2 game hours. I'm basically overflowing with stabalizers. Takes no effort to have hilts crafted and have them waiting.

 

Plus when I leveled my sent I didn't start PVPing with it till 36 so it was awhile before I even had valor 40, and it wasn't till the late 40s that I stopped doing anything but PVPing on that toon (wouldn't even take the PVP daily) so I'd have enough experience points to gain the comms I needed.

 

Even if I concede your point though 11,800 normal comms (23,700 if you are a dual wielding class and actually have to buy two weapons) can be much better spent on building either off sets as appropriate or just getting yourself a ridiculous amount of money from material sales (and the first 16 stabalizers can be spent on your hilt/barrel)

 

Power crystals are still cheap as ****. It might not be the color you want, but they're like 50k.

 

Pfft, like getting the color you want wasn't always have the point anyway =P Lets not pretend that people won't trade a marginal difference by losing 41 expertise for 41 power if it means they get a cool lightsaber color. That's sure as hell what I did on my shadow. Not even a little regret.

 

Mats which you could sell for millions of credits. So even if you gathered mats yourself, it's still costing you millions of credits because you could have sold those mats instead.

 

That would be the "opporunity cost" part of what you quoted =P Also some of us already have PVE armorings, or are buying them with blackhole commendations, and the opportunity loss in that case is much smaller. Plus at some point you just stop caring about credits. I'm not out to go make 15 million credits. As long as I have a comfortable amount of credits to do what I want to do I honestly don't care. I doubt I'm the only one with that mentality.

 

Problem is you still need to spend comms on getting extra mod and enhancements anyways to put into your MH/OH if you go that route.

 

True, but those mods and enhancements can be gotten for significantly cheaper from other pieces. War Hero gloves and boots only cost 875 normal comms. The Elite War Hero versions (for the enhancements only) cost 2000.

 

You're gonna have to grind out the weapon one way or another so you can upgrade it for future, unless you plan on spending millions of credits each time a new tier comes out.

 

Perhaps but given the time between new tiers its not at all beyond the realm of reason that I'll eventually have the commendations to grind them out once everything else is min/maxed long before I have to worry about a new tier of gear.

 

I mean do what you want. Its your time, your commendations, your toon. The difference is still marginal and what you choose to prioritize is kind of your own personal business.

Edited February 5, 2013 by ArchangelLBC

[Scotland]

oh its all clear now, you're not actually a real pvper.

 

Case closed.

[CharterMonkKent]

Wait... isn't that the point of video games?

 

Yes it is. I just forget myself sometimes and realize I'm talking about video game nonsense. I just moved across the country, work has taken over, girlfriend has taken over, new city has taken over. I think I spent more time on the forums today than I have in game over the past 5 days. I'm souring on the game, probably time for a break, I love to PvP but the content is dismal and Bioware doesn't appear to care. Probably means I'm on the way out. Who wants my stack of 70+ stabilizers, 1000s of mats and 100s of exotech stims?? haha

[cashogy_reborn]

so i wrote a simulation model using microsoft excel. here is a link if anyone wants to fiddle with it themselves, and look at different builds/values: https://www.dropbox.com/s/xoqnuvb3ykpqtre/swtor_expertise_sim.xlsx

 

i used Flame Burst as the test attack, to maintain some consistency with this test. it also removes the variabilty of player Armor Mitigation from the equation, since internal/elemental damage mitigation is 10% for everyone. i also based this on a 7/3/31 build for Powertech, which includes a 6% increase to fire effects (which i did account for)

 

here are the two builds i have tested

1396: http://swtor.askmrrobot.com/character/4569cc73-0c64-498e-bdaf-b0cec17c179a

1214: http://swtor.askmrrobot.com/character/b47e385d-8d69-45e1-b054-c356c425069c

 

i ran the simulation out to 10,000 randomly generated data points. here are the results:

 

1214 vs 1396

Min: 1145.14

Max: 1204.3

Mean: 1174.93

 

1396 vs 1396

Min: 1129.5

Max: 1189.8

Mean: 1159.52

 

 

the difference

Min: 1.3%

Max: 1.2%

Mean: 1.3%

 

 

 

so there ya go. 1214 expertise does 1.3% more damage than 1396 expertise vs the same 1396 target

 

for kicks, here is a 1314 build: http://swtor.askmrrobot.com/character/99aaf9c6-dc2c-474f-be59-d39ff3610e83

 

1314 vs 1396

Min: 1140.61

Max: 1200.41

Mean: 1170.35

 

the difference

Min: .97%

Max: .88%

Mean: .93%

 

1314 does just south of 1% more damage than 1396 vs the same 1396 target, with a ~1% defensive mitigation loss.

 

if you are a DPS class, PvP healing bonus does not matter. it applies to heals you cast, not heals you receive.

 

and you are sacrificing 1.9% damage mitigation for 1.3% more damage output w/ a 1214 build. as a DPS player, where sacrificing a bit of defense for a bit of damage is a regular occurrence, this seems like one of those smart decisions.

 

and the actual defense difference between 1396 and 1214 is 1.9%

1000*(1+.253)*(1-.1864) = 1019

1-(1000/1019) = .019 -> 1.9%

 

for anyone wondering, here is the defense loss for 1396 v 1314

1000*(1+.253)*(1-.1952) = 1008

1-(1000/1019) = .008 -> 0.8%

which actually suggests that 1314 is the optimal DPS PvP build, as the damage increase is greater than the loss in damage mitigation

 

recap again, since this is pretty clear yet people dont seem to see it/understand it.

 

burst damage is key. if i can increase my damage slightly, at the sacrifice of a very minimal amount of mitigation, im going to do it. that is called min/maxing.

 

ive done RWZs w/ 1214 expertise. i did not die any faster or more often than the people on my team w/ 1396 expertise. and in a situation where your opponents focus you to burst you down, mitigation is not going to save your butt; a larger health pool is the best defense vs high-powered burst damage.

 

and we are talking a loss of 1.9% mitigation by using 1214 expertise.

 

look at it this way. here is a build where i use high endurance mods and enhancements to increase my survivability: http://swtor.askmrrobot.com/character/72c737df-bd6b-44ee-803e-bb8bb76b9446

now here is my regular 1214 build: http://swtor.askmrrobot.com/character/b47e385d-8d69-45e1-b054-c356c425069c

 

health difference: 19416 vs 20778 -> 6.5% health difference, in favor of endurance stacking

bonus damage difference: 672 vs 632 -> 5.9% difference, in favor of low endurance

 

this is the exact same thing. you are trading out some survivability for greater offensive output.

[JP_Legatus]

blah blah

 

Your pics show ranged stats and you are using flame burst. Your accuracy is 97% and his is 90%. I smell something fishy.

 

Post the pictures up again with tech stats.

Edited February 5, 2013 by JP_Legatus

[ArchangelLBC]

oh its all clear now, you're not actually a real pvper.

 

Case closed.

 

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