Expertise: Max or 1200 - Debate has ended

[cashogy_reborn]

Your pics show ranged stats and you are using flame burst. Your accuracy is 97% and his is 90%. I smell something fishy.

 

Post the pictures up again with tech stats.

 

when viewing someone else's gear, there is a bug that always shows accuracy at 90%.

 

it'd be great if bioware could fix some of these little bugs that have been around since launch

[ArchangelLBC]

when viewing someone else's gear, there is a bug that always shows accuracy at 90%.

 

it'd be great if bioware could fix some of these little bugs that have been around since launch

 

I wish they'd fix the ones that cropped up after launch tbh. Never let me view the offhand again but for the love of God let me inspect someone without just seeing all my gear and all the info from both toons overlayed so much you can't read anything.

[DarthOvertone]

The upshot of this is that where exactly your Power/Expertise tradeoff balance point is will vary depending upon what type of abilites you use, and how much damage you do with each.

 

That's why I took a record of my combat logs to see how much I was using each ability, so that I could come up with a general approximation of how much change in my damage output I could expect for any stat change (assuming I didn't change what I was doing).

 

Combat log evaluation can't be stressed enough. Using SWmoniTOR has helped me improve my DPS output a ton and given me a pretty clear idea on how much Expertise I really need on my Mara and Sniper (the two min/maxed toons I run RWZs with).

 

 

It really doesn't though. Not for a DPS. Either you have the cooldowns etc to keep yourself up or give your healers time to heal you or you don't.

 

Pretty much. Even with full expertise, TTK is extremely fast with 2+ opponents focus-firing you. Survival in this game is really about cooldown usage, not a marginal amount of damage reduction.

 

 

What's bonus damage at approx with a full WH set, and then a min/max WH set?

 

WH Min/Max was around 640. 1210 Min/Max is around 670...at least for a Mara. With Overkill Augments you could push it even higher.

[Groncho]

well

tank/healers...max expertise whoever say this is wrong sorry is the way to go

ranged can afford droping to 1250 aprox

melee....u want expertise if u don't wanna be a heal sponge

 

beeing this game about who breaks first the other team resistance, i can't see a place where going low in expertise can be productive

 

as someone said before if u are in the spawn ur not doing any dps, then why going squishy when u can deal almost the same amount of damage without going under 1214

 

Maybe accuracy is more important now that gear gap is almost inexistent and reducing the target resistance sounds a little bit hawt

[cashogy_reborn]

well

tank/healers...max expertise whoever say this is wrong sorry is the way to go

ranged can afford droping to 1250 aprox

melee....u want expertise if u don't wanna be a heal sponge

 

beeing this game about who breaks first the other team resistance, i can't see a place where going low in expertise can be productive

 

as someone said before if u are in the spawn ur not doing any dps, then why going squishy when u can deal almost the same amount of damage without going under 1214

 

Maybe accuracy is more important now that gear gap is almost inexistent and reducing the target resistance sounds a little bit hawt

 

1214 expertise is NOT squishy.

 

1.9% mitigation difference. on a 5k hit, that means you take 95 extra damage. if you take four 5k hits in a row (focus fired) you are going to take an extra 380 damage on top of the 20,000. you are dead regardless in that situation; 1396 expertise is not going to help you. and most good groups are capable of putting out a lot more than 20k damage with focus fire.

[Groncho]

1214 expertise is NOT squishy.

 

1.9% mitigation difference. on a 5k hit, that means you take 95 extra damage. if you take four 5k hits in a row (focus fired) you are going to take an extra 380 damage on top of the 20,000. you are dead regardless in that situation; 1396 expertise is not going to help you. and most good groups are capable of putting out a lot more than 20k damage with focus fire.

 

i said going under 1214

i'm in 1255 in my dps toons

tried on my tank to trade some expertise and stayed maxed

[madtycoon]

I'm at 1396 expertise on my sniper

just got knocked out of cover (so no dampers) and got hit from 90%-20% in 3 seconds by a jug with less than 17k unbuffed health

he died before he could execute

i had to look back at fraps to see if it was real

 

full expertise is amazing

[DaedalusV]

Health pool size is not an issue for a dps or a healer if your team has a tank or preferably two who knows how to do his job.

 

Then we're right back where we started. Mitigation is better for dps/healers than a very minimal increase in output.

 

I will refer the people who disagree to that statement to the argument used against having max expertise;

 

People usually get overkill damage when they die, so a small percentage increase in output is meaningless since you already output more than needed to get the kill.

 

If you get healed and a tank has slapped guard on you, then mitigation > health pool (at least in my head)

[ArchangelLBC]

Health pool size is not an issue for a dps or a healer if your team has a tank or preferably two who knows how to do his job.

 

Then we're right back where we started. Mitigation is better for dps/healers than a very minimal increase in output.

 

I will refer the people who disagree to that statement to the argument used against having max expertise;

 

People usually get overkill damage when they die, so a small percentage increase in output is meaningless since you already output more than needed to get the kill.

 

If you get healed and a tank has slapped guard on you, then mitigation > health pool (at least in my head)

 

I'm not sure that all these sentences are really connected to each other. Health pool size isn't an issue so mitigation is better?

 

I mean my point for the last several pages is that its pretty much a wash either way. 1.9% mitigation one way or a marginal DPS increase the other way, you're never truly going to notice outside of a placebo effect, so you might as well go with whichever placebo you prefer because the psychological confidence you get from that is probably going to be worth way more than whatever insignificant gains you notice either way between 1214 and 1396 expertise.

[CharterMonkKent]

I'm not sure that all these sentences are really connected to each other. Health pool size isn't an issue so mitigation is better?

 

I mean my point for the last several pages is that its pretty much a wash either way. 1.9% mitigation one way or a marginal DPS increase the other way, you're never truly going to notice outside of a placebo effect, so you might as well go with whichever placebo you prefer because the psychological confidence you get from that is probably going to be worth way more than whatever insignificant gains you notice either way between 1214 and 1396 expertise.

 

It's more than placebo once we remember this game isn't 1v1. Having a team putting out the most dps as possible makes a difference. It adds up, one team doing 1-5% more dps in a WZ can be the deciding factor.

[Deimosmp]

I'd like to thank the people who took the time to debate and pull up their results in this thread. I've run my own theorycrafting for a very long time and come up with the near same conclusions and questions that have been answered in this thread. As a veteran PvPer I'd like to also say that PvP is about survival. The guy that said "Dead DPS is 0 DPS" is very correct. You will get attacked in PvP. It is inevitable.

 

From years of World of Warcraft arenas(Multiple time gladiator experience) I can tell you that ultimately it comes down to who has the superior gameplay/positioning and synergy between your teammates. I cannot stress enough the synergy part. There are variables in PvP that you simply cannot mathematically calculate since each PvP encounter changes by the second. Factoring in who has the superior spell interrupt coordination, croud control and focus fire ect.

 

Once again thank you to those people who have contributed to this thread.

[madcappah]

Wait, who won the debate?? I thought it had ended.

[cashogy_reborn]

It's more than placebo once we remember this game isn't 1v1. Having a team putting out the most dps as possible makes a difference. It adds up, one team doing 1-5% more dps in a WZ can be the deciding factor.

 

why would your whole team use 1214 expertise? that is a massively hypothetical and unrealistic situation, yet i keep seeing it used as some kind of measuring stick.

 

tanks and healers should use full expertise.

 

a tanks job is to maximize mitigation, obviously full expertise does that best

a healers job is to heal. max expertise reduces the effects of Trauma by nearly 50%

 

 

a difference of 1.9% mitigation is not going to be noticed when you are being focus-fired. like i already pointed out, imagine you get hit for 5k four times. with 1214 expertise, you take 95 extra damage with each attack, for a total of 380 extra damage. the initial grand total of 20,000 is going to kill 9/10 DPS spec'd players, which means that extra 380 damage that you might be able to mitigate is not going to make a difference in keeping you alive.

Edited February 6, 2013 by cashogy_reborn

[CharterMonkKent]

Wait, who won the debate?? I thought it had ended.

 

It was ended for some but not for others. I think it goes down to the facts listed below.

 

Roll with 1200ish expertise (if you are dps):

-you (& your premade) gain marginal damage

-you (& your premade) gain marginal HP

-you (& your premade) lose marginal damage reduction

-you die when people focus fire you regardless so team play matters (healing, guard switching)

-rateds are about focus fire

 

people can take that and decide what works best for them.

[CharterMonkKent]

why would your whole team use 1214 expertise? that is a massively hypothetical and unrealistic situation, yet i keep seeing it used as some kind of measuring stick.

 

tanks and healers should use full expertise.

 

a tanks job is to maximize mitigation, obviously full expertise does that best

a healers job is to heal. max expertise reduces the effects of Trauma by nearly 50%

 

 

a difference of 1.9% mitigation is not going to be noticed when you are being focus-fired. like i already pointed out, imagine you get hit for 5k four times. with 1214 expertise, you take 95 extra damage with each attack, for a total of 380 extra damage. the initial grand total of 20,000 is going to kill 9/10 DPS spec'd players, which means that extra 380 damage that you might be able to mitigate is not going to make a difference in keeping you alive.

 

I said DPS, not tanks/healers. As for my jugg tank I prefer to use two endurance crystals over the expertise ones. Between endure pain and rakata med pack the + to endurance is better than the tiny mitigation

 

I agree with you, but it's not a wash. 40-120 extra damage for every attack by a rated team's DPS players is noticeable across the span of a WZ. Not placebo.

[Crerin]

I said DPS, not tanks/healers. As for my jugg tank I prefer to use two endurance crystals over the expertise ones. Between endure pain and rakata med pack the + to endurance is better than the tiny mitigation

 

I agree with you, but it's not a wash. 40-120 extra damage for every attack by a rated team's DPS players is noticeable across the span of a WZ. Not placebo.

 

lolol rakata medpac? You dont get a say in what's best for pvp.

[cashogy_reborn]

lolol rakata medpac? You dont get a say in what's best for pvp.

 

iirc, rakata medpack gives +15% max health for a short period of time. not a totally bad option for a tank class

[CharterMonkKent]

lolol rakata medpac? You dont get a say in what's best for pvp.

 

haha

[CharterMonkKent]

iirc, rakata medpack gives +15% max health for a short period of time. not a totally bad option for a tank class

 

Yes. Add this to the 30% HP boost of endure pain.

[funkiestj]

Yes. Add this to the 30% HP boost of endure pain.

 

If we compare this to the WZ medpac heal of 35% of max health then the break even point is about 16k base health (i.e. enure + rakata medpac = enure + WZ medpac). After that WZ medpac is a bit better. E.g. with 24k health, the WZ medpac is about 2k more healing. Of course the rakata is a lot less expensive to use

 

I would definitely use the rakata on non-tanks and even on tanks in regular WZ.

Edited February 6, 2013 by funkiestj

[CharterMonkKent]

If we compare this to the WZ medpac heal of 35% of max health then the break even point is about 16k base health (i.e. enure + rakata medpac = enure + WZ medpac). After that WZ medpac is a bit better. E.g. with 24k health, the WZ medpac is about 2k more healing. Of course the rakata is a lot less expensive to use

 

I would definitely use the rakata on non-tanks and even on tanks in regular WZ.

 

I use both on my jugg when tanking, but the rakata get's used more often (WZ med pack if I'm caught in a 1v1 and it's needed). When I'm pulling FF (huttball) the extra 15% for 15 seconds is huge. It's a great get out of jail free card when paired with endure pain (also a great way to get people waste their burst). It's demoralizing to people when they try to take down a jugg tank with 24k health, think they are doing great, then the jugg health jumps up 12,000 for 10/15 seconds. Score.

 

Edit: In case I didn't make it clear. I use the rakata med pack when I am sure that 15% bonus will be healed a number of times over the 15 seconds. Hence it's use over wz med pack in most tank related situations. Be it running the huttball or realizing the healer you are guarding can't heal you at the moment but will soon. Just having a hot on you during those 15 seconds means you can eat more damage when guarding someone, without requiring a courtesy heal every 3 globals from your healer.

Edited February 6, 2013 by CharterMonkKent

[Smashbrother]

why would your whole team use 1214 expertise? that is a massively hypothetical and unrealistic situation, yet i keep seeing it used as some kind of measuring stick.

 

tanks and healers should use full expertise.

 

a tanks job is to maximize mitigation, obviously full expertise does that best

a healers job is to heal. max expertise reduces the effects of Trauma by nearly 50%

 

 

a difference of 1.9% mitigation is not going to be noticed when you are being focus-fired. like i already pointed out, imagine you get hit for 5k four times. with 1214 expertise, you take 95 extra damage with each attack, for a total of 380 extra damage. the initial grand total of 20,000 is going to kill 9/10 DPS spec'd players, which means that extra 380 damage that you might be able to mitigate is not going to make a difference in keeping you alive.

 

Yea but when you throw in guard and taunts into the mix, that person being FF may NOT die. And when that happens, that extra mitigation matters.

[Xerain]

Yea but when you throw in guard and taunts into the mix, that person being FF may NOT die. And when that happens, that extra mitigation matters.

 

This.

 

 

Staying alive to do damage > dong more damage but dying quicker. Don't rely on rng.

[CharterMonkKent]

Yea but when you throw in guard and taunts into the mix, that person being FF may NOT die. And when that happens, that extra mitigation matters.

 

Weird logic since both teams are throwing taunts and guards. DPS should be maximizing DPS.

[cashogy_reborn]

1.9% mitigation or 1.3% damage

 

a little bit of damage, or a little bit of defense. i'll take the damage, since thats the role my class plays

Edited February 6, 2013 by cashogy_reborn