The common misconception about Expertise:

[Megatfx]

That it's useless over 1214 (Or 1208 if you're in just WH)

 

I know you have graphs on how it's supposed to work. Simply put, you are significantly tankier with 1396 expertise, to the point where your healers will notice it. In fact I'm willing to bet most people who claim 1214 is ideal have never even run max expertise in Rateds.

 

Take a test I did with another powertech. We both had IDENTICAL stats (Itemized exactly the same) except he used 2x power crystals, and 2x PvE armorings.

 

We both had the same exact buffs/stims and he had about 35-40 more bonus damage than I did.

 

I flamebursted him, he flamebursted me. My flameburst hit him harder than it hit me. In fact, anyone with 1214 expertise will do less damage to me than I will do to them. "The math doesn't support it, the math shows this due to how expertise scales on your character sheet."

 

I will tell you right now that it is broken. What it displays and what it actually does is incorrect. I encourage you all to test it out.

 

With 1396 expertise you will ACTUALLY hit someone for 1214 expertise HARDER than they hit you. The only time 1214 expertise does more damage, is against people with 1214 or less expertise.

 

My healers frequently note how significantly easier it is to heal my PT with 1396 expertise to an equally geared PT with 1214 expertise.

 

The forums have been filled with incorrect information about expertise for a very long time, I don't care about what your graphs say, if you test it out against someone of the same class, identical gearing minus one in pve armorings/power crystals you will find that the guy with 1396 expertise is doing more damage to you than you are doing to him.

 

Why is that? Because expertise is better. Too many people are obsessed with your character sheet. The only classes that actually get away with less are healers because of the nature of the healing bonus.

 

You can either disregard what I've said without testing it, or see for yourself, I encourage the latter as you'll be amazed. Please don't post your stupid graphs, they aren't applicable because in-game the numbers are different.

[WillLongstick]

You were going well, and I was getting convinced that I should go for EWH bracers instead of a 63 PvE armoring and WH mod. Then you said this.

 

That it's useless over 1214 (Or 1208 if you're in just WH)

Please don't post your stupid graphs, they aren't applicable because in-game the numbers are different.

 

Please don't ask me how magnets work, I'm a scientist and will just lie to you.

[Jakev-]

Shhh.. Don't tell people..

[Khalhazar]

Ok. So this is a perfectly valid hypothesis: expertise benefits listed on the character sheet are incorrect.

 

Can you post some decent tests supporting your hypothesis? (Edit: your colloquial stories are great, but posting some numeric results that we can reason about would be more useful.)

Edited February 2, 2013 by Khalhazar

[The_FLIPmode]

IYO, is getting maximum expertise applicable to tanks? Or is it just for DPS?

[SharpG]

That it's useless over 1214 (Or 1208 if you're in just WH)

 

I know you have graphs on how it's supposed to work. Simply put, you are significantly tankier with 1396 expertise, to the point where your healers will notice it. In fact I'm willing to bet most people who claim 1214 is ideal have never even run max expertise in Rateds.

 

Take a test I did with another powertech. We both had IDENTICAL stats (Itemized exactly the same) except he used 2x power crystals, and 2x PvE armorings.

 

We both had the same exact buffs/stims and he had about 35-40 more bonus damage than I did.

 

I flamebursted him, he flamebursted me. My flameburst hit him harder than it hit me. In fact, anyone with 1214 expertise will do less damage to me than I will do to them. "The math doesn't support it, the math shows this due to how expertise scales on your character sheet."

 

I will tell you right now that it is broken. What it displays and what it actually does is incorrect. I encourage you all to test it out.

 

With 1396 expertise you will ACTUALLY hit someone for 1214 expertise HARDER than they hit you. The only time 1214 expertise does more damage, is against people with 1214 or less expertise.

 

My healers frequently note how significantly easier it is to heal my PT with 1396 expertise to an equally geared PT with 1214 expertise.

 

The forums have been filled with incorrect information about expertise for a very long time, I don't care about what your graphs say, if you test it out against someone of the same class, identical gearing minus one in pve armorings/power crystals you will find that the guy with 1396 expertise is doing more damage to you than you are doing to him.

 

Why is that? Because expertise is better. Too many people are obsessed with your character sheet. The only classes that actually get away with less are healers because of the nature of the healing bonus.

 

You can either disregard what I've said without testing it, or see for yourself, I encourage the latter as you'll be amazed. Please don't post your stupid graphs, they aren't applicable because in-game the numbers are different.

 

So let me get this straight, you used an ability that can hit between a certain range of damage (Not a static number), yours just happened to hit harder, and you call it proof that maximum expertise is superior?

 

Jesus Christ, if you're going to claim something is superior, at least back it up with proof like those who did that math proving that 1200ish expertise is when you should stop stacking and swap to power due to the diminishing returns getting signifcantly higher. You aren't including the increased crit chance gained from the PvE armoring main stat as well as increased HP on top of your extra bonus damage gained.

 

The stupidity of these forums is apalling.

Edited February 2, 2013 by SharpG

[cultivatedmass]

So let me get this straight, you used an ability that can hit between a certain range of damage (Not a static number), yours just happened to hit harder, and you call it proof that maximum expertise is superior?

 

Jesus Christ, if you're going to claim something is superior, at least back it up with proof like those who did that math proving that 1200ish expertise is when you should stop stacking and swap to power due to the diminishing returns getting signifcantly higher. You aren't including the increased crit chance gained from the PvE armoring main stat as well as increased HP on top of your extra bonus damage gained.

 

The stupidity of these forums is apalling.

 

flame burst has a very consistent damage and i'm sure he tested it more than 1 time.

[jizerai]

So let me get this straight, you used an ability that can hit between a certain range of damage (Not a static number), yours just happened to hit harder, and you call it proof that maximum expertise is superior?

 

Jesus Christ, if you're going to claim something is superior, at least back it up with proof like those who did that math proving that 1200ish expertise is when you should stop stacking and swap to power due to the diminishing returns getting signifcantly higher. You aren't including the increased crit chance gained from the PvE armoring main stat as well as increased HP on top of your extra bonus damage gained.

 

The stupidity of these forums is apalling.

 

You should give him the benefit of a doubt here and actually assume they did more than just one attack on each other.

 

It's very easy to test either way. Just do 100 hits on each person and average that damage out and compare it. If it's a noticeable difference, it should be seen in so few a hits.

[SharpG]

You should give him the benefit of a doubt here and actually assume they did more than just one attack on each other.

 

It's very easy to test either way. Just do 100 hits on each person and average that damage out and compare it. If it's a noticeable difference, it should be seen in so few a hits.

 

Why should I give someone the benefit of the doubt when he is completely pulling "proof" out of thin air. Its not even proof, its observations made with absolutely no numbers to back it up.

[cultivatedmass]

Why should I give someone the benefit of the doubt when he is completely pulling "proof" out of thin air. Its not even proof, its observations made with absolutely no numbers to back it up.

 

well he did ask others to try it for themselves.

 

making a video won't prove anything as people will claim gear is different.

 

all i know is my damage is perfectly fine with high 1300 expertise getting over 5k hits on my merc.

Edited February 2, 2013 by cultivatedmass

[jizerai]

Why should I give someone the benefit of the doubt when he is completely pulling "proof" out of thin air. Its not even proof, its observations made with absolutely no numbers to back it up.

 

I agree that it's anecdotal evidence. But there is no need to get upset over it. Ask politely for his data, and if he have it - he should post it - if he don't disregard his post if you so choose.

 

Either way. There is nothing stopping you from testing it out yourself. If you did, you would have the data to either prove or disprove your own conclusions about Expertise. The only way to actually check it out is through in-game testing anyway, since the math are a bit guesstimations (how different abilities have different coefficients, etc)

 

Btw. I've seen much more unfathomable misconceptions about Expertise than this.

[MiaRB]

Ok. So this is a perfectly valid hypothesis: expertise benefits listed on the character sheet are incorrect.

 

Can you post some decent tests supporting your hypothesis? (Edit: your colloquial stories are great, but posting some numeric results that we can reason about would be more useful.)

 

the way expertise is shown on character sheet isnt incorrect, its just misleading. why? because the PVP stats you see on character sheet show what your bonuses will be vs a a zero exp player. if you want to see what the actual dif between 1396 and 1200... remove all your gear and just put enough gear on so you have 196 exp. then look at your PVP stats.

[Khalhazar]

the way expertise is shown on character sheet isnt incorrect, its just misleading. why? because the PVP stats you see on character sheet show what your bonuses will be vs a a zero exp player. if you want to see what the actual dif between 1396 and 1200... remove all your gear and just put enough gear on so you have 196 exp. then look at your PVP stats.

 

That's a good point, but I don't think that test would work either, since the difference between 0-196 and 1200-1396 expertise will be different due to diminishing returns.

[MiaRB]

That's a good point, but I don't think that test would work either, since the difference between 0-196 and 1200-1396 expertise will be different due to diminishing returns.

 

that is another misleading thing. DR doesnt work that way. the DR is applied to the final result. so what you see with 196 is accurate.

[jizerai]

That's a good point, but I don't think that test would work either, since the difference between 0-196 and 1200-1396 expertise will be different due to diminishing returns.

 

Just take the difference in percentages between the two. That's the net gain from Expertise.

[cultivatedmass]

the way expertise is shown on character sheet isnt incorrect, its just misleading. why? because the PVP stats you see on character sheet show what your bonuses will be vs a a zero exp player. if you want to see what the actual dif between 1396 and 1200... remove all your gear and just put enough gear on so you have 196 exp. then look at your PVP stats.

 

comparing with the gear i have on hand.

 

1370 vs 1212 which is only 158 difference.

 

1370 would do 6.34% extra dmg to the 1212.

 

1212 would do 2.19% extra damage to the 1370.

 

 

the stat difference would need to provide a 4.15% increase in damage to come out even.

 

that is a healthy amount.

 

i imagine the almost 200 difference is even greater. this is of course if the character sheet is actually correct.

 

 

in a game where people die in a couple hits it really doesn't matter what you do.

Edited February 2, 2013 by cultivatedmass

[Khalhazar]

Just take the difference in percentages between the two. That's the net gain from Expertise.

 

Hm, that is interesting. Thanks.

[jizerai]

comparing with the gear i have on hand.

 

1370 vs 1212 which is only 158 difference.

 

1370 would do 6.34% extra dmg to the 1212.

 

1212 would do 2.19% extra damage to the 1370.

 

the stat difference would need to provide a 4.15% increase in damage to come out even.

 

that is a healthy amount.

 

i imagine the almost 200 difference is even greater. this is of course if the character sheet is actually correct.

 

Actually, that is not the way the damage/damage reduction is calculated. If you have an equal amount of Expertise, you will do no more damage to your target at all. Let's take a very easy example, where you have a 25% damage increase and a 20% damage reduction (you'll notice that they will all even out, regardless of Expertise level).

 

BaseDamage * (1 + ExpertiseDamageIncrease) * (1 - ExpertiseDamageReduction) = Damage

 

Example: 1000 * ( 1 + 0.25) * (1 - 0.2) = 1000

 

So if you're sitting at 25% damage increase, and the other person only has 18% damage reduction, you'll land at this:

 

Example: 1000 * (1 + 0.25) * (1 - 0.18) = 1025

Which is a 2.5% damage increase.

 

From this, it is very easy to calculate how much more damage person A with X Expertise would do to person B with Y Expertise.

[Megatfx]

We flamebursted each other 100 times with a sorc in our guild recording the numbers.

 

My Flame burst hit him harder every single time.

 

Armorings, Mods, Augments, Enhancements, specs identical with him having 2xPvE Armorings and 2xPower Crystals.

 

I am asking you "graph" makers to test it yourselves. Most of you have not ever sat down with someone with identical itemization and actually proven your graphs.

 

I ran 1200 expertise for the longest time, my buddy in the guild jumped up to 1396 and said "whoa, I feel tankier and I'm doing the same damage in WZ's".

 

I tried it, what did I notice almost immediately? My survivability significantly increased, healers NOTICE the difference in healing you are required to receive. I did a RWZ with a group the other day, the other two PT's in the group were at 1214 expertise. I convinced them to jump to 1396 and the healers said "holy ****, where you would have normally been killed I can keep you up."

 

Their damage output grew (Should be about the same I think but their increased survivability gives them more uptime to do damage.)

 

Disregard my post, say I'm wrong without testing it yourselves. But just remember, then you'll never know how right I am.

 

The big problem with people demanding 1214 expertise is the best is more a psychological one. Who wants to run 1396 expertise when it makes your stats look lower?

Edited February 2, 2013 by Megatfx

[Yeochins]

We flamebursted each other 100 times with a sorc in our guild recording the numbers.

 

My Flame burst hit him harder every single time.

 

Armorings, Mods, Augments, Enhancements, specs identical with him having 2xPvE Armorings and 2xPower Crystals.

 

I am asking you "graph" makers to test it yourselves. Most of you have not ever sat down with someone with identical itemization and actually proven your graphs.

 

I ran 1200 expertise for the longest time, my buddy in the guild jumped up to 1396 and said "whoa, I feel tankier and I'm doing the same damage in WZ's".

 

I tried it, what did I notice almost immediately? My survivability significantly increased, healers NOTICE the difference in healing you are required to receive. I did a RWZ with a group the other day, the other two PT's in the group were at 1214 expertise. I convinced them to jump to 1396 and the healers said "holy ****, where you would have normally been killed I can keep you up."

 

Their damage output grew (Should be about the same I think but their increased survivability gives them more uptime to do damage.)

 

Disregard my post, say I'm wrong without testing it yourselves. But just remember, then you'll never know how right I am.

 

The big problem with people demanding 1214 expertise is the best is more a psychological one. Who wants to run 1396 expertise when it makes your stats look lower?

 

People still think it has the old 1.1.x diminishing returns.

 

With that said there are some times when you want to loose some exp in favor of PvE armorings. Namely the sorcerer whose innervate becomes 1.5 seconds shorter.

[Megatfx]

Shhh.. Don't tell people..

 

He knows. I think you'll find that very few people have tested it themselves and zero have come out on the forums.

 

Why do that when "scientists" have already told everyone a 100 times how much expertise they should have. "No more than 1200, you can even get away with 1100 (LOL Bastion)."

 

I need to see things in-game to believe it. I saw 1000 replies saying the above, but I saw ZERO people mention they actually tested the difference between max expertise and 1200.

 

What these people have done is put on max expertise, write down a percentage, put in PvE Armorings/Crystals, write down a percentage and compare the two and decide 1200 is the sweet spot.

 

Nobody but me and a handful of others have actually done what I've done.

[SharpG]

We flamebursted each other 100 times with a sorc in our guild recording the numbers.

 

My Flame burst hit him harder every single time.

 

Armorings, Mods, Augments, Enhancements, specs identical with him having 2xPvE Armorings and 2xPower Crystals.

 

I am asking you "graph" makers to test it yourselves. Most of you have not ever sat down with someone with identical itemization and actually proven your graphs.

 

I ran 1200 expertise for the longest time, my buddy in the guild jumped up to 1396 and said "whoa, I feel tankier and I'm doing the same damage in WZ's".

 

I tried it, what did I notice almost immediately? My survivability significantly increased, healers NOTICE the difference in healing you are required to receive. I did a RWZ with a group the other day, the other two PT's in the group were at 1214 expertise. I convinced them to jump to 1396 and the healers said "holy ****, where you would have normally been killed I can keep you up."

 

Their damage output grew (Should be about the same I think but their increased survivability gives them more uptime to do damage.)

 

Disregard my post, say I'm wrong without testing it yourselves. But just remember, then you'll never know how right I am.

 

The big problem with people demanding 1214 expertise is the best is more a psychological one. Who wants to run 1396 expertise when it makes your stats look lower?

 

Once again, you aren't including the whole picture, the amount of HP gained and crit chance gained needs to be factored in as well. 1396 Expertise is BARELY going to be noticeable from 1200ish, a healer will not be able to tell the difference, I can guarantee you that. You might be SLIGHTLY more durable with maximum expertise but going power crystals and two PvE armorings is a lot more efficient in your stat distribution. The difference between the two set ups are almost neglibile but the 1200ish expertise has been proven to be slightly more efficient when it comes to outgoing damage vs incoming damage tradeoff.

 

Everything you say is based on your word and nothing else, you have no proof or data to back your claims up. The only thing you've done is use poor attempts at a test to prove that one is better then the other. The only thing you are doing is basing your opinion on how something "feels".

Edited February 2, 2013 by SharpG

[Megatfx]

People still think it has the old 1.1.x diminishing returns.

 

With that said there are some times when you want to loose some exp in favor of PvE armorings. Namely the sorcerer whose innervate becomes 1.5 seconds shorter.

 

Actually you're wrong, if you farm the EWH or WH (Can't remember atm) offhand you can put those armorings in any slot of gear. Like the tionese/rakata/campaign sorc healer armor to get the set bonus AND still get max expertise.

 

That is another thing entirely different. That is what my sorc healer has. You can possibly find more information about it from a few google searches. Dont' want to derail this thread too much. A lot of the top tier assassins on my server have done that to get their 4 piece tionese bonus while maintaining max expertise. Or DPS operatives who want the 15% crit 2 piece. Etc.

[Yeochins]

Once again, you aren't including the whole picture, the amount of HP gained and crit chance gained needs to be factored in as well. 1396 Expertise is BARELY going to be noticeable from 1200ish, a healer will not be able to tell the difference, I can guarantee you that. You might be SLIGHTLY more durable with maximum expertise but going power crystals and two PvE armorings is a lot more efficient in your stat distribution. The difference between the two set ups are almost neglibile but the 1200ish expertise has been proven to be slightly more efficient when it comes to outgoing damage vs incoming damage tradeoff.

 

Everything you say is based on your word and nothing else, you have no proof or data to back your claims up.

 

Efficiency means nothing under focus fire. Surviving with 20 HP because of a 2% increase in damage reduction, means they have to waste another GCD on you.

[Megatfx]

Once again, you aren't including the whole picture, the amount of HP gained and crit chance gained needs to be factored in as well. 1396 Expertise is BARELY going to be noticeable from 1200ish, a healer will not be able to tell the difference, I can guarantee you that. You might be SLIGHTLY more durable with maximum expertise but going power crystals and two PvE armorings is a lot more efficient in your stat distribution. The difference between the two set ups are almost neglibile but the 1200ish expertise has been proven to be slightly more efficient when it comes to outgoing damage vs incoming damage tradeoff.

 

Everything you say is based on your word and nothing else, you have no proof or data to back your claims up. The only thing you've done is use poor attempts at a test to prove that one is better then the other.

 

Have you actually tried it? How is that poor stat distribution when my attacks are hitting 1214 expertise players harder than they are hitting me?

 

There is no point you even posting in this thread anymore. You refuse to even fathom that I could be correct, or take the time yourself to sit down and test it. You demand your 1214 expertise is the better of the two without confirming it yourself.

 

So in that regard, you'll just never know whereas I've seen it with my own eyes.