Attributes per class / class balance

[MusicRider]

I really don't think you can make a table like this applicable. It's always going to have a bias. For instance, I would have rated sorcs pretty damn low in any class balance table. I hadn't played one properly since January. I've been playing one recently (and no i'm not bubble spec) and i've got to say that I am seriously surprised by how strong the sorc class is. Madness is a really really good tree. If lightning had the same level of mobility then sorcs would have 3 great trees.

 

Thanks. Yes they will always be some form of bias, I agree. Also agree that balance/madness is pretty good. It needs a couple minor adjustments in my opinion and it will be absolutely perfect. My suggestions have been to a) force in balance/death field minimum damage to be increased a bit, b) a skill high in balance tree (e.g. move disturb mind high in balance and reverse its effect) that makes weaken mind from 15 secs down to 9 or 12 and increases its force cost so it won't be able to be spammed, and c) project has the potential to hit for 5k+ if crit and proc and reduce the proc chance as a tradeoff/balance to something like 20-30%.

[totherkins]

I'm still confused on how sorcs/sages rank so low on the totem pole. Before I start with why I think you are wrong I have played the sage class since launch, primarily I've been heals but I like to do dps on occasion. To say sorc I have little to no mobility doesn't make sense to me except for middle tree cause ra a more turret style gameplay.

 

But as for heal spec you have a force speed on a 20 sec cd that allows you to remove roots how is that not mobile? You also can heal on the move with your 4k bubbles. As for madness...all of your abilities are instant cast except for tk throw. To be fair madness is probably hands down the most mobile range class in the game.

 

I'm just curious on why you think sages aren't mobile or if you just aren't playing them right?

Edited January 28, 2013 by totherkins

[MusicRider]

I'm still confused on how sorcs/sages rank so low on the totem pole. Before I start with why I think you are wrong I have played the sage class since launch, primarily I've been heals but I like to do dps on occasion. To say sorc I have little to no mobility doesn't make sense to me except for middle tree cause ra a more turret style gameplay.

Firstly let me clarify that this table was written from a dps perspective. So with this in mind...

 

But as for heal spec you have a force speed on a 20 sec cd that allows you to remove roots how is that not mobile? You also can heal on the move with your 4k bubbles.

Egress and root break/immunity is healers only. Some people think that if it was given to dps also it would make them OP, others think it is the thing missing to increase their survivability. Personally, I am undecided on this.

 

As for madness...all of your abilities are instant cast except for tk throw. To be fair madness is probably hands down the most mobile range class in the game.

I'm just curious on why you think sages aren't mobile or if you just aren't playing them right?

Firstly you will see from my score that I didn't say they are not mobile. I just don't consider them as mobile as some other classes. If you have to keep on moving there can be 2-3 gcds that you might have nothing to cast waiting for a project or a sever force. E.g. vans/pts they never need to stop damaging while moving. This is hands down the best mobility.

[Altheran]

Set up the proc before hand then hard cast mind crush and burst away

But also u should be able to get both proc if u throw 2 throw I between your rotation

GlockIB has answered for me :

 

i wonder how will you hard cast mind crush if you have a proc active?

Like he said, if you try to proc before and then using Mind crush, it will be your Mind crush that will become instant and the proc will consume, making Disturbance casted unless you use Telekinetic Throw again like I said.

[LarryRow]

Thanks. Yes they will always be some form of bias, I agree. Also agree that balance/madness is pretty good. It needs a couple minor adjustments in my opinion and it will be absolutely perfect. My suggestions have been to a) force in balance/death field minimum damage to be increased a bit, b) a skill high in balance tree (e.g. move disturb mind high in balance and reverse its effect) that makes weaken mind from 15 secs down to 9 or 12 and increases its force cost so it won't be able to be spammed, and c) project has the potential to hit for 5k+ if crit and proc and reduce the proc chance as a tradeoff/balance to something like 20-30%.

 

I like (a)

Not a fan of (b), or maybe just don't understand the reasoning behind it

© makes the burst a bit too rng dependent.

 

I think a huge fix to this tree would be to allow Presence of Mind (Wrath) to stack up to 2 (3?) times similar to Upper Hand / Tactical Advantage, so more abilities could be used on the move. I would probably be willing to trade at least some of the damage bonus for this.

[MusicRider]

I like (a)

Not a fan of (b), or maybe just don't understand the reasoning behind it

© makes the burst a bit too rng dependent.

b) as it is right now the duration of wm/affliction is too long to put any serious damage, ie its fluff damage that yields good numbers when spread in many people

c) in my opinion there has to be some element of randomness in big burst damages. the fact that smash is an aoe that auto-crits is the source of all evil

I think a huge fix to this tree would be to allow Presence of Mind (Wrath) to stack up to 2 (3?) times similar to Upper Hand / Tactical Advantage, so more abilities could be used on the move. I would probably be willing to trade at least some of the damage bonus for this.

That's a good idea and kills 2 birds with 1 stone, as it increases mobility further and serious burst when needed. Gives a good reason for people to kill a sage/sorc quickly too.

[fungihoujo]

I'm still confused on how sorcs/sages rank so low on the totem pole. Before I start with why I think you are wrong I have played the sage class since launch, primarily I've been heals but I like to do dps on occasion. To say sorc I have little to no mobility doesn't make sense to me except for middle tree cause ra a more turret style gameplay.

 

But as for heal spec you have a force speed on a 20 sec cd that allows you to remove roots how is that not mobile? You also can heal on the move with your 4k bubbles. As for madness...all of your abilities are instant cast except for tk throw. To be fair madness is probably hands down the most mobile range class in the game.

 

I'm just curious on why you think sages aren't mobile or if you just aren't playing them right?

 

Because force speed is extremely predictable- for dps specs, anything can and will cancel it. For heal spec- everyone has their stun/mez ready for when the sorc force speeds. After that- 20 seconds of immobility.

 

Not to mention- all sorc specs are rooted for their spells, and all three specs rely heavily on immobile abilities. In fact- other than mercs and snipers, no other class is nearly as immobile while casting, and at least snipers come with protection.

 

Pretty easy to see why sorcs are going to be considered immobile when ultimately- that is a huge issue, especially since sorcs have no defensives, and poor mitigation- meaning their survival relies almost fully on mobility. Compare to a mara, or jugg, or sin, or PT- those classes can be always moving, have gap closers, some on very short CDs- that can't be nullified- which is another thing- you can KB a leap, sure, but they're still close to you. Force speed however can be completely nullified- stun or mez, you can prevent a sorc from moving, at which point the sorc has no mobility, and if they want to cast things like heals- they have to stand still.. and be interrupted nonstop.

 

Range isn't enough to make up for piss poor burst damage, no survival, and easy to counter mobility- not when gap closers are given out like candy on Halloween.

[wishihadaname]

Operative- Lethality Spec*

 

1) Mobility- 1. Highly mobile, no cast abilities. Has a sprint attached to their stun and are nearly impossible to slow/root due to 4 different methods of escaping.

 

2)Burst- 0.5. Potentially massive but requires a lot of setup and is back loaded. Can be shut down by locking us out of our TA generating melee skills for 10 seconds. To properly burst a target, they have to be already poisoned by you, and you need to have 2 stacks of TA. You can then fire WB, cull twice, restealth, hidden strike, shiv, and cull 2 more times. That will kill anything short of a full tank in tank gear. Leaves you with no energy.

 

3)Range- 0.75- flexible. In a bad fight with a bunch of smashers a lethality operative can find cover and start multi dotting and throwing around aoes. Our ranged single target is weak compared to a sniper, but we have a decent 4-6k burst with Explosive Probe + Snipe x2. Our ranged aoe is not to be casually F*ked with. (Toxic Nade + frag + orbital + another frag = 15k worth of damage over 12 seconds). Good for locking down an area and generally being annoying. Not much killing power though.

 

4) Invulnerability- 0.5. Takes a fair bit of skill but the operatives mobility and various countermeasures make them rather tough. Shield probe is good for 1.5-3k, evasion can be used to counter many hard hitting moves and to deny smashers their shockwave procs. Countermeasures breaks all roots and is off GCD, cleanse lets you counter anni mara's, other lethality operatives, engineers, and pyrotechs. Worst comes to worst you can always vanish. Self heals are also nice when out of direct fire and coupled with a medpack.

 

5) Escape- 1. Easily the most escapes of any class in the game. Capable of negating every root and slow and removing any debuff. Good for screwing with dotting sorcs. A quick list of all our escapes: cover (leap immunity), 30% sprint after stunning a target, aggro dump breaks all roots and slow while being off GCD, tech/physical cleanse on a 4s cooldown, evasion removes every debuff in the game and allows you to ignore moves like Ambush and Ravage. Restealth if all else fails. Self heals for once the pressure is off you.

 

6) Utility- 1. Tons but it has its downsides. You have some burst healing potential if you put 2 points into medicine to get a TA off of Kolto Injection. More importantly you have tons of AOE, 3 different stuns, 2 different slows and you also have an easier time managing energy when multi dotting (return of energy every time a poison effect crits with no time constraints). The big downside is that multi dotting makes it harder for teammates to CC their targets, however it also means that enemy healers have a harder time keeping up with all the damage going around and enemies have to either waste CD's to remove dots that will be reapplied immediately afterwards or they have to go into the fight at 80-60% health (which is what one round of unbuffed dots will reduce you to).

 

7) Skill Cap (-1). Very high. The class has a very clunky main rotation and its strength is active response to whats going on around you. Your passive skills suck and the energy management is a huge pain at times. The class is also hugely gear dependent. Without maxed out crit and surge your energy management and burst rotation will suck.

 

Overall- 3.75

Edited January 28, 2013 by wishihadaname

[MusicRider]

Because force speed is extremely predictable- for dps specs, anything can and will cancel it. For heal spec- everyone has their stun/mez ready for when the sorc force speeds. After that- 20 seconds of immobility.

 

Not to mention- all sorc specs are rooted for their spells, and all three specs rely heavily on immobile abilities. In fact- other than mercs and snipers, no other class is nearly as immobile while casting, and at least snipers come with protection.

 

Pretty easy to see why sorcs are going to be considered immobile when ultimately- that is a huge issue, especially since sorcs have no defensives, and poor mitigation- meaning their survival relies almost fully on mobility. Compare to a mara, or jugg, or sin, or PT- those classes can be always moving, have gap closers, some on very short CDs- that can't be nullified- which is another thing- you can KB a leap, sure, but they're still close to you. Force speed however can be completely nullified- stun or mez, you can prevent a sorc from moving, at which point the sorc has no mobility, and if they want to cast things like heals- they have to stand still.. and be interrupted nonstop.

 

Range isn't enough to make up for piss poor burst damage, no survival, and easy to counter mobility- not when gap closers are given out like candy on Halloween.

 

Surprisingly I agree with you. This is new.

[MusicRider]

Operative- Lethality Spec*

 

Nice job. Thanks.