Can unguarded op healers be killed by AP?

[NoTomorrow]

Is this possible? Assuming he has the melee stun on 30s CD. what can i do with AP to increase my chances? Edited December 31, 2012 by NoTomorrow

[LordExozone]

Is this possible? Assuming he has the melee stun on 30s CD. what can i do with AP to increase my chances?

 

If he is good and wears good gear, no. Even pyrotech finds op healers a tough nut to crack.

Edited December 31, 2012 by LordExozone

[Nanarchist]

It's still possible, but u'll need all you CD's, some luck on crits and a good gestion of your stuns/anticast. but it's very hard yes, since AP is not meant to solo healers anyway.

 

(PS : i'm glad to see more and more AP users )

Edited January 1, 2013 by Nanarchist

[wetslampigduex]

you should drop the AP first, but the key to killing op healers is to stun them right around 30% that way that cant use the free instant cast heal on themselves

[NoTomorrow]

The problem is, if they get to stun/flashbang me for at least a few seconds they are back to full health easily. (i play an op healer myself, so i know how easy it to survive). AP lacks the delayed burst of thermal detonator, so it makes easier for healer to outheal that predictable damage of AP.

 

At the same time, i don't want to play pyro as i currently feel more clumsy with it with all the range nerf.

[wetslampigduex]

The problem is, if they get to stun/flashbang me for at least a few seconds they are back to full health easily. (i play an op healer myself, so i know how easy it to survive). AP lacks the delayed burst of thermal detonator, so it makes easier for healer to outheal that predictable damage of AP.

 

At the same time, i don't want to play pyro as i currently feel more clumsy with it with all the range nerf.

 

Not trying to be a dick here but... You do know that nerf was not really much of a nerf at all... More so something to shut the people crying for a nerf up.

 

As a pyro you need to be in at least a 10 meter range in order to reset the RS proc, 4 meters for rocket punch.

 

The whole dancing argument i've heard from some people is joke.. move in and out between melee and ranged. Makes no sense.. your interrupt is at 4 meter range, your stuns are both 10 meter range. The only class you really need to kite is a mara(kiting a sin is worthless there abilities are mostly 10 meters just dont let them behind you) keep him in between 4-10 meters and he cant leap. Every other class(except sniper they can hurt) you can stand there and go face to face with and come out on top... even with 50% less health to start.

 

Not to mention if your using Unload as part of your rotation your doing it wrong.

[NoTomorrow]

Not trying to be a dick here but... You do know that nerf was not really much of a nerf at all... More so something to shut the people crying for a nerf up.

 

As a pyro you need to be in at least a 10 meter range in order to reset the RS proc, 4 meters for rocket punch.

 

The whole dancing argument i've heard from some people is joke.. move in and out between melee and ranged. Makes no sense.. your interrupt is at 4 meter range, your stuns are both 10 meter range. The only class you really need to kite is a mara(kiting a sin is worthless there abilities are mostly 10 meters just dont let them behind you) keep him in between 4-10 meters and he cant leap. Every other class(except sniper they can hurt) you can stand there and go face to face with and come out on top... even with 50% less health to start.

 

Not to mention if your using Unload as part of your rotation your doing it wrong.

 

Dude your post has nothing to do with the thread topic. And i never mentioned about using unload as a powertech in any thread ever. My sentence about not using Pyro was meant only FYI, but not to debate the usefulness of AP or Pyro in pvp.

 

As for 30% operative hp, i am playing one my self, no need to repeat stuff that most ppl on the forum already know about operatives.

Edited January 2, 2013 by NoTomorrow

[wetslampigduex]

you edited your original post, you mentioned the "nerf" to pyro and feeling clumsy about having to be in melee range.... butthurt much

 

"At the same time, i don't want to play pyro as i currently feel more clumsy with it with all the range nerf."

 

if your not in melee range your playing the class wrong

 

don't know this for a fact but i'm willing to bet you should be in melee range as AP too

 

Powertechs are melee mercs are ranged jsut so you know

Edited January 3, 2013 by wetslampigduex

[Cryowolf]

If you weren't taking advantage of the old range on IM and TD to blast 50% of an enemy's health before you ever got to melee range than you were the one doing it wrong.

 

On topic: In a 1v1 if he is good, then you would be lucky to kill him. AP would have trouble bursting his last 30% even during a stun.

[wetslampigduex]

If you weren't taking advantage of the old range on IM and TD to blast 50% of an enemy's health before you ever got to melee range than you were the one doing it wrong.

 

On topic: In a 1v1 if he is good, then you would be lucky to kill him. AP would have trouble bursting his last 30% even during a stun.

 

No before the nerf i'd wait till i was in a 10 meter range to attack...

 

Of course as soon as i'd be in 30 meter range a TD followed by IM were perfect while gap closing by the time you fire your RS your within 10 meters.

 

I wasn't even trying to be an ******e originally. I was simply stating that the so called "nerf" on PT's was ROFL an explained my reasoning. OP was the one who brought it up, i was just telling him he's playing the class wrong. I've seen people up here giving "tips" on how to play a pyrotech and when this "nerf" came about they went nuts cause they couldn't "Pillar hump" from 30 meters. I've played a PT since launch and i also see everyone calling them a faceroll class because the rotation, however i've seen maybe 4-5 good PT's in the year of playing. In recruit gear with some mixed augmented BM i would beat full WH PT's by 100-300k dmg. Don't sit here and tell me pvp isn't all about the dmg either cause it is if your a pt. No, i didnt ignore the objectives.

 

And to be honest if your playing AP your doing nothing but gimping yourself and your team.

Edited January 4, 2013 by wetslampigduex

[RjuDju]

A good player in any spec is better than a bad player in a fotm spec. As for killing a healer solo, it wouldnt be easy if the healer knew what he was doing, but if u catch him with no procs and not HOT'd up the nice 6 sec interrupt helps. If u can get him under 50% then stun, PFT, immolate, carbonize and pray for crits and finish him.

[NoTomorrow]

No before the nerf i'd wait till i was in a 10 meter range to attack...

 

Of course as soon as i'd be in 30 meter range a TD followed by IM were perfect while gap closing by the time you fire your RS your within 10 meters.

 

I wasn't even trying to be an ******e originally. I was simply stating that the so called "nerf" on PT's was ROFL an explained my reasoning. OP was the one who brought it up, i was just telling him he's playing the class wrong. I've seen people up here giving "tips" on how to play a pyrotech and when this "nerf" came about they went nuts cause they couldn't "Pillar hump" from 30 meters. I've played a PT since launch and i also see everyone calling them a faceroll class because the rotation, however i've seen maybe 4-5 good PT's in the year of playing. In recruit gear with some mixed augmented BM i would beat full WH PT's by 100-300k dmg. Don't sit here and tell me pvp isn't all about the dmg either cause it is if your a pt. No, i didnt ignore the objectives.

 

And to be honest if your playing AP your doing nothing but gimping yourself and your team.

 

By all means, play pyro! I enjoy whiping the floor with your kind on my MM/Engineering sniper. It was easy before 1.4, but now with all the range nerfs including stuns, you are just a free kill for me. I can root you beore you can even get in 30m range to fire your explosive dart on me. And no, i will not give you a chance to close the distance, or even place myself so that you can take advantage of LoSing me within 10m range for your abilities to work.

Edited January 10, 2013 by NoTomorrow

[wetslampigduex]

By all means, play pyro! I enjoy whiping the floor with your kind on my MM/Engineering sniper. It was easy before 1.4, but now with all the range nerfs including stuns, you are just a free kill for me. I can root you beore you can even get in 30m range to fire your explosive dart on me. And no, i will not give you a chance to close the distance, or even place myself so that you can take advantage of LoSing me within 10m range for your abilities to work.

 

Sure bud, honestly i wouldn't even bother attacking you cause my assassin friend would be backstabbing the sh*t out of you while i kill your healer in about 10 seconds lol.

 

Are you trying to say AP has a better chance at killing a sniper? Cause that in itself is laughable even when i get a jump on snipers it's pretty much 50/50 on who's gonna come out on top. Sniper is really the only class that can shut down a pyro. Well op's can too but no one plays them so.

Edited January 10, 2013 by wetslampigduex

[NoTomorrow]

Sure bud, honestly i wouldn't even bother attacking you cause my assassin friend would be backstabbing the sh*t out of you while i kill your healer in about 10 seconds lol.

 

Are you trying to say AP has a better chance at killing a sniper? Cause that in itself is laughable even when i get a jump on snipers it's pretty much 50/50 on who's gonna come out on top. Sniper is really the only class that can shut down a pyro. Well op's can too but no one plays them so.

 

Pyro was feeling more comfortable against snipers than AP before, this advantage over pyro has been lost. Hydraulic overrides give AP a better chance at survival, with Pyro the moment when you are comitting is final, you fight until you die.

 

And Assassins? it doesn't take a genius to use force shroud against pyro at the correct moment. Personally i have no problem with assassins while i am part of the big zerg, the specs that are capable to kill me, are more often than not lurking at capture points away from where the main teams are. You however, you need to be with the zerg and kill healers.

Edited January 11, 2013 by NoTomorrow

[thecoffeeguy]

Sure you can.

 

In huttball, grapple his butt into the fire or acid pit.

 

In voidstar, grapple that sucker off the bridge.

[Sippix]

@OP If the Op heals is worth actually a decent player, AP will require a very long fight with all available offensive CD's (Carbonize, Electro Dart, Explosive Fuel) timed just perfectly.

 

By all means, play pyro! I enjoy whiping the floor with your kind on my MM/Engineering sniper. It was easy before 1.4, but now with all the range nerfs including stuns, you are just a free kill for me. I can root you beore you can even get in 30m range to fire your explosive dart on me. And no, i will not give you a chance to close the distance, or even place myself so that you can take advantage of LoSing me within 10m range for your abilities to work.

 

You're fighting bad PT's that don't know how to gear/itemize if they can't kill any Sniper outside of 10m.

 

I've successfully killed every Sniper/GS on my server by LOS'ing and using Rapid Shots+Explosive Dart. Don't need to be within 10m to kill a Sniper. You can make any "pro" Sniper look like they barely understand how to play their class if you pop out of LOS, ED+RpS, then duck back into cover for RpS GCD. Pop back out, RpS, duck back in. Pop back out RpS, duck back in. Just do that every single GCD and it's a rofl good time watching the Sniper die to a free, basic attack.

 

Even if Sipers do root you, they can't do enough DPS in that time to actually kill you and end the fight. Even if they root, pew pew, flashbang, pew pew, they still can't kill a half decently geared PT in that time. If they get up from cover to try and use their knockback, well, that's a free invitation to grapple the Sniper to you and pillar hump to victory. If a Sniper tries to cast Orbital Strike on the PT's cover, it's easy to slip out and use that time to A) Juke the sniper into popping Entrench and then running back to cover, or B) getting into CC range, pop Electro Dart, run away, grapple the Sniper closer to your pillar, and pillar hump your way to victory.

[Siphorus]

anyone who plays ap is bad

[Sippix]

anyone who plays ap is bad

 

AP is really fun in regular WZ's. I don't think you should use it if you plan on running competitively in RWZ's, but for regulars, it's really fun to solo-queue with.

[NoTomorrow]

I've successfully killed every Sniper/GS on my server by LOS'ing and using Rapid Shots+Explosive Dart. Don't need to be within 10m to kill a Sniper. You can make any "pro" Sniper look like they barely understand how to play their class if you pop out of LOS, ED+RpS, then duck back into cover for RpS GCD. Pop back out, RpS, duck back in. Pop back out RpS, duck back in. Just do that every single GCD and it's a rofl good time watching the Sniper die to a free, basic attack.

 

Even if Sipers do root you, they can't do enough DPS in that time to actually kill you and end the fight. Even if they root, pew pew, flashbang, pew pew, they still can't kill a half decently geared PT in that time. If they get up from cover to try and use their knockback, well, that's a free invitation to grapple the Sniper to you and pillar hump to victory.

 

1. You are full of wrong assumptions. If you think you can bait entrench in a situation when you will be able to escape me, you are completely wrong. You will see entrench when it will be already too late for you to win a DPS race, when you will fully commit in hopes of using a stun to interrupt me DPSing. Good snipers are not easily baited for an entrench, especially by a PT with 2 short range stuns.

 

2. It's absolutely out of the question any sort of engagements in open terrain, you are dead plain and simple. There is absolutely NOTHING you can do to win a DPS race against me.

 

3. Line of sight obstructions. First of all, don't expect me to willingly position my self in a detrimental way. Places where you will find favorable for you to engage, i will just not be there. Suppose i am defending at voidstar, i will not wait for you to come to the pilars, you will be shot before you arrive at them. I am an area denial class and i will fulfill this role, those situations where you could hope to have an advantage, you will just not be given these oppotunities to use them. Don't understand? Suppose you are defending a side cap on civil war, I will not come to you 1vs1 because this is not my job.

 

And if we look at the warzones themselves, huttball is out of the question, it's my playing ground and only a concealment ops, or assassin can bring me down or just a big massive zerg which you should try to be a part of in hopes to have a fighting chance. Besides the map events are so rapid and dynamic, that neither of us will be locked into a battle of attrition which you could hope to win.

 

On voidstar you have a good chance if there is a big zerg vs zerg and i am forced to use pilars to not stay in line of sight of absolutely everyone. And that is ONLY the first door. Outside of that it's again my complete playing ground against the likes of you.

 

Civil war sidecaps, if i am on defense you will not take it from me, if you are defending, well, i am not suited to take caps alone by myself anyway, so i will not ocme. At mid it's everyones game. If there is a big zerg vs big zerg. I doubt you will be sitting at the pilars and try to blaster shoot me. Most probably you will have more pressing matters to deal with, like a mara. But anytime you will commit out of your hole for too long, i will kill you.

 

Novarre, I am on defense east/west i can eithe intercept you before you reach any LoS, if you get to the cap, simply i will far enough from the bunker and side walls, you will fight on my terms. Again i will not come to solo you when you are defending, as this is again not my job. Any zerg fight at the mid, well it's everyone's game, but i am not afraid of your burst, i can mitigate it very well with ballistic dampers. I can delay your railshots easily evasion 3s + 9s with 70% miss chance from diversion + cover.

 

Ancient hypergates, well guess what, at mid with that pilar in the center you got a good chance. I am ok with that. Again you will not take any cap from me if i will defend them.

 

4. As for your pillar humping 30m away from me, oh please, First of all, you are not as safe as you would like to think you are. Root + Explosive probe + ambush + FT will eat a good chunk of your health, you will have to burn your shield if you don't want to easily eat 10 000 damage. And if I bring your HP into execution range (which shouldn't be too hard, you can easily eat 5000 takedown + 4500 FT with 2 instant attacks, which will quite often crit thanks to my 41% crit chance (45% for my FT).

 

5. Explosive dart and blaster shots? Bwahaha, yo dawg, when and where are you planning to use this on me? By the time you will get to put at least a scratch me with this combo and hopefully attempt to cap the objective, the whole damn polish cavalry will arrive to reinforce my cap.

 

6.

If a Sniper tries to cast Orbital Strike on the PT's cover, it's easy to slip out and use that time to A) Juke the sniper into popping Entrench and then running back to cover, or B) getting into CC range, pop Electro Dart, run away, grapple the Sniper closer to your pillar, and pillar hump your way to victory.

 

Wait wait, so i put an orbital strike, you come out of cover, then you return back to it? Nice tactics you've got bro. In the mean time youa re looking forward at eating in the worst case scenarion 2500 per tick, 4 ticks total. And may God have mercy on your soul if i am full engineering..

 

If you get into range when you can use CC, i assure you, i will make it so it will be far enough from any LoS. I say it again, you will have to fully commit, if you will commit, i will entrench, you will not run back. You will be dead. I must admit, that electrodart then run 20 meters to grapple me to a pilar, was an entertaining joke though

 

And what idiot will pop out entrench when you come out of cover, what can you do to me at a distance longer than 10m? it's not that you can stun or grapple me. That's the bad news mate, you will see entrench when you will fully commit and try to win a dps race while hoping that your stuns will keep me away from DPSing. Not gonna happen.

 

You know what, i don't even feel that hopeless against you even in a 10m pilar fight. Of course you will have a very good advantage, but it's not a guaranteed win either. I have plenty of tools to make you work for your kill if by some miracle you happen to find yourself in such a favorable position in 1vs1.

 

Of course if the sniper contingent on your server is one that cannot 1vs1 such specs as carnage, then you will probably have a decent chance with pyrotech against them as well. Feel free to call yourself an uber leet Pyro if you happen to kill these snipers.

 

 

I am done with this off-topic, i wanted originally to discuss AP vs healers, but it seems you cannot discuss anything in PT forums without having an arrogant Pyrotech coming to express his superiority. I want to use AP because it's an interesting non-FOTM spec and I can hold myself quite well in many duels with it, but I was curious if there are premises to kill healers with it. It seems it is not. It looks like Pyro is still your best bet.

 

As for AP vs. Snipers, well I can kill AP as well with my sniper, but at least, AP has hydraulic overrides which really gives this spec a nice feature against the stupid amount of roots and knockbacks a melee class is subjected to, especially on maps like huttball when you can get knocked into the pit and out of position.

 

Also with my AP i was able to melt guarding tanks with my PFT by grappling the healer to the tank, stunning them and burning the tank for 150% elemental damage. I pulled a few kills against tank+healer combos this way that i would have never be able to do with pyrotech

Edited January 14, 2013 by NoTomorrow

[FeralPug]

Not really sure what folks are talking about here. Are we talking 1v1's outside of a WZ, or as a participant on a team in a WZ? Pillar humping and using rapid shots to slowly wear down a sniper isn't a practical solution if you're playing an objectives-based WZ. I can see this tactic in a 1v1 though, provided there are large enough obstacles to LOS with.

 

I will say that sniper vs. pyrotech is a mismatch in favor of the sniper in a pure 1v1 situation. All things being equal, a sniper should beat a pyro most of the time. Advanced Prototype is a different story, however. I would say that it's a coin toss if given two equally skilled/geared players. AP hybrid vs. marksman, and full AP for Engineer. I'd run full pyro vs. a lethality sniper, and hope that I can get him low before the culls begin.

[NoTomorrow]

Not really sure what folks are talking about here. Are we talking 1v1's outside of a WZ, or as a participant on a team in a WZ? Pillar humping and using rapid shots to slowly wear down a sniper isn't a practical solution if you're playing an objectives-based WZ. I can see this tactic in a 1v1 though, provided there are large enough obstacles to LOS with.

 

I will say that sniper vs. pyrotech is a mismatch in favor of the sniper in a pure 1v1 situation. All things being equal, a sniper should beat a pyro most of the time. Advanced Prototype is a different story, however. I would say that it's a coin toss if given two equally skilled/geared players. AP hybrid vs. marksman, and full AP for Engineer. I'd run full pyro vs. a lethality sniper, and hope that I can get him low before the culls begin.

 

Pyro should beat lethality because his damage matures much faster. You should be able to survive first cull and kill him before he gets the second one.

[FeralPug]

Pyro should beat lethality because his damage matures much faster. You should be able to survive first cull and kill him before he gets the second one.

 

Most lethality snipers are easy kills. There's one on my server who's not. Fortunately, he's in my guild. It really comes down to skill.

[NoTomorrow]

Most lethality snipers are easy kills. There's one on my server who's not. Fortunately, he's in my guild. It really comes down to skill.

 

it often comes down to whether he took ballistic dampers or traded them for extra 10% energy. The difference is huge. As for skill wise, it's quite a statit rotation, there is not much room for improvisation with lethality. You either win DPS race or loose it, as a good chunk of your CC is not working with all those dots.

[Sippix]

1. Gigantic post.

 

When you talk about damage vs me, you treat it as I'm alone. When you talk about damage vs you, you talk about it being in an assist scenario.

 

Sorry, but I beat Snipers easily. They are not a hard-counter to Pyros. You just have a lot of bad Pyros on your server, if that's how you think.

[NoTomorrow]

When you talk about damage vs me, you treat it as I'm alone. When you talk about damage vs you, you talk about it being in an assist scenario.

 

Sorry, but I beat Snipers easily. They are not a hard-counter to Pyros. You just have a lot of bad Pyros on your server, if that's how you think.

 

Your arguments, the stupid, no skill scenario you provided and every other potential answer you could have come up with has been countered across the board. Since you felt necessity to compesate for your damaged ego, you come with delusions about me treating you as a single opponent while i am in a team.

 

I gave an explicit answer when you will supposedly have advantage 1vs1 against me and i why i will not give you the opportunity to exploit those situations. In zerg vs zerg scenarios, if my team is as good as your team i can beat you just as before. Perhaps you are hoping that i will be focused more than you will be, which is again just stupid assumptions on your part.

 

Are you friends with PoliteAssassin by any chance? that dude claimed he beat multiple times the best operative healer as an annihilation marauder, oh and he also allegedly beat the best sniper on their server with annihilation, ahahaha . You both seem to have the same butthurt attitude when somebody counters your non-sense arguments.

 

If i was trying to BS ppl in a similar manner like you do, i would probably claim that i always beat deception assasins and concealment operatives on my sniper, see what i did there?

Edited January 15, 2013 by NoTomorrow