I'm feeling Nickel and Dimed by Makeb

[Goretzu]

So what would define an expansion or adventure pack then? We have very differing opinions of what it is. Bethseda thinks adding 5 levels and 1 new area to be a DLC expansion worth $20. Bioware thinks that adding a 2-hour Shadow Broker DLC adventure pack with no level increase or the numerous adventure packs from Dragon Age 1 cost at +$10.

 

The arguments here is essentially "the expansion is not an expansion, because I say so" or "the expansion is not an expansion, because they told me I would not have to pay for it, but now they changed their mind".

 

Ruins of Kunark was an expansion with a level increase, Scars of Velious was an expansion without one (Storm Legion, BC and MoM all expansions).

 

Things like LDON are more "adventure pack".

 

 

 

 

For Makeb to be an "expansion" I've have expected it to be 3-4 time bigger than it is, in fact I did expect it to be that big.......... until they told us the size of it.

Edited January 3, 2013 by Goretzu

[Goretzu]

You're really stretching now, you have no idea, yet babble on as if you know enough to try and lecture the forum about the worth of makeb?

The quality of these forums seems to be diving by the day...

 

You have added so much to this discussion, my thanks.

[kamed]

For Makeb to be an "expansion" I've have expected it to be 3-4 time bigger than it is, in fact I did expect it to be that big.......... until they told us the size of it.

 

Right, but then how much would you pay for it? Around $40-60 for something 3-4 times bigger right? Certainly not $10, that would absurd. If this expansion was 1/4 of what the desired expansion would have been, wouldn't it make sense to price it to appropriately $10-20 then?

 

To be honest given the state of the game and developers, I don't think they can come up with enough material to justify that 3-4 times expansion size you are looking at especially when they placed their resources onto the development of F2P. Nor could they make the deadline of before the year, but push it back to spring 2013. Given that situation, it would make sense that they release something smaller immediately at the right pricing.

 

I would rather get an expansion (even it is not that big) in March, than wait till September or November for an expansion size I want. Plus they have already stated that they are adding a bunch of new stuff too. Given that most of the necessary changes have been finally made, the developers can now focus on other things.

[Goretzu]

Right, but then how much would you pay for it? Around $40-60 for something 3-4 times bigger right? Certainly not $10, that would absurd. If this expansion was 1/4 of what the desired expansion would have been, wouldn't it make sense to price it to appropriately $10-20 then?

 

To be honest given the state of the game and developers, I don't think they can come up with enough material to justify that 3-4 times expansion size you are looking at especially when they placed their resources onto the development of F2P. Nor could they make the deadline of before the year, but push it back to spring 2013. Given that situation, it would make sense that they release something smaller immediately at the right pricing.

 

I would rather get an expansion (even it is not that big) in March, than wait till September or November for an expansion size I want. Plus they have already stated that they are adding a bunch of new stuff too. Given that most of the necessary changes have been finally made, the developers can now focus on other things.

 

 

As I said the price is about right (well not sure about the F2P price), but it's still an "adventure pack" not an "expansion".

 

Makeb will have been in development for at least 1 year by the time it is released, content to development-time-wise that's not exactly speedy.

 

Sure I suspect we'll see a lot of new gambling packs and $15 outfits in 2013, but I'm not so sure what other content SWTOR will see.

[kamed]

As I said the price is about right (well not sure about the F2P price), but it's still an "adventure pack" not an "expansion".

 

I'm kinda confused, so would you be fine to pay $10 for an adventure pack as is, but not for an expansion that is roughly the same size and price as an adventure pack?

 

Its all just semantics really.

 

But this goes beyond that since most if not a lot of people are upset also because they don't even qualify this expansion as an adventure pack as you see it, but more of an content update, which they should be entitled to with free access.

[uziforyou]

 

 

As I said the price is about right (well not sure about the F2P price), but it's still an "adventure pack" not an "expansion".

 

Makeb will have been in development for at least 1 year by the time it is released, content to development-time-wise that's not exactly speedy.

 

Sure I suspect we'll see a lot of new gambling packs and $15 outfits in 2013, but I'm not so sure what other content SWTOR will see.

 

A rose by any other name. Are you seriously going to banter about the meaning of "expansion pack" versus "adventure pack"?

 

Lol, who says this game isn't full of nerds?

[Goretzu]

A rose by any other name. Are you seriously going to banter about the meaning of "expansion pack" versus "adventure pack"?

 

Lol, who says this game isn't full of nerds?

I'm kinda confused, so would you be fine to pay $10 for an adventure pack as is, but not for an expansion that is roughly the same size and price as an adventure pack?

 

Its all just semantics really.

 

But this goes beyond that since most if not a lot of people are upset also because they don't even qualify this expansion as an adventure pack as you see it, but more of an content update, which they should be entitled to with free access.

 

Because I think they have very specific (PR) reasons for calling at an "expansion" rather than an "adventure pack" that are more than a little disingenuous, and I won't accept that myself. I''ve had far too much smoke blown up my behind by SWTOR already.

[ClexMix]

I've been having a generally negative feeling all week about the announcement to charge for the next content update. I'm someone who has kind of grown up with the subscription model. The business model that I'm used to has me paying 15 dollars a month for a game to play, including regular content updates including solo content, open world group content, minor gameply updates -I'm not talking about bugs-, and raiding updates.

 

I want to be careful to say that I'm not being critical of the Makeb content update. I think you guys have done a fine job of releasing new content on a timely scale. If not for the Nickel and Dime aspect, I would be energized and excited about a nice planet to play next spring.

 

Every couple years, I expect an expansion that significantly updates the game. In SWTOR I would expecte a full rework of all classes so they play different and the game legitimately feels updated. I would expect a full Act 4 including a minimum of 3 Voss/Belsavis/Corelia sized planets, a class story that progresses through each planet for all 8 base classes, and some evolution of my relationship with my companions. I would also expect to see at least a couple new flashpoints, and at least 1 new tier of operations. I would pay 40 dollars for this. I also wouldn't expect this to happen this year. It would be a 2014 thing.

 

This is the business model that I'm comfortable with.

 

Instead, in a few months, I'm going to be asked to pay additional money to download a content patch hidden behind a paywall. If I don't pay, then I don't get to continue playing endgame content. It feels wrong and it makes me wonder if this is going to be the new normal for SWTOR. If it is, then does that mean I shouldn't ever expect to see a big expansion that reworks all the classes and makes the game feel fresh again? Should I never expect to have months of new class stories to discover? Will there even be an Act 4? How many times will I have to plunk down 10 dollar bills for content updates in addition to my 15 dollars a month I already pay before I see a real expansion?

 

I've kind of been feeling crappy all week about this announcement and I haven't been sure how to word it. I'm not going to pre-order the patch and hopefully, my opinion will evolve as more information comes out.

 

Regardless, I realize that when this content is released, I will be making a final decision to accept the new "pay us 10 bucks when we tell you to" business model or leave the game I enjoy playing forever.

 

That is, unless the business team behind the game changes their mind and offers the patch for free to subscribers.

 

 

 

I agree with you to some point at this sort of feels almost like a glorified content patch but it's a bit more than that. First off we get 5 levels a new planet and skills and who knows what else. The planet alone is a lot of work with full voice acting for the quest lines. Writers have to lay out the story and dialogue, actors have to record multiple dialogue trees, then the programmers and level designers have to create the planet and test quests/terrain (everything).

 

While this isn't a full fleshed out HUGE expansion revamping the classes and game I actually am anxious to see small content expansions like this. I was so sick of WoW's model of completely changing how each class played it seemed with every expansion. This game is still relatively new and the current model still has a decent life span to it before any big changes need to be made. With the 5 additional levels and skills being released it can still offer new play style options for classes.

 

 

As far as thinking you should get a content patch including a new planet, 5 levels, and everything that goes with, either for free or even more reduced price I think you should look into what goes into creating them. This game is different than WoW, with the voice acting alone it can become costly paying the writing team to come up with interesting stories and dialogue and having voice actors perform. Some of the voice actors for the game's classes are very famous in their field and probably aren't cheap.

[Draloch]

First off we get 5 levels a new planet and skills and who knows what else.

 

With the 5 additional levels and skills being released it can still offer new play style options for classes.

 

This game is different than WoW, with the voice acting alone it can become costly paying the writing team to come up with interesting stories and dialogue and having voice actors perform.

 

1. We're not GETTING 5 new levels. We're having 5 new levels forced on us as a way of gating all future content updates behind a $10 paywall. If you don't pay for Makeb, you essentially get no value for your subscription fee going into the future.

 

2. A new planet is great, and I agree with all the stuff you said about the writing and voice acting and stuff. But it's still just a nice chunk of solo content. Once a year, that should be something they do for the $150 dollars or so we pay them to play the game.

 

3. Although we haven't seen exactly what our options will be for the 5 new skill points, you can do some intelligent speculation and say it's not really going to be much more than som extra points tacked onto trees that are very similar to what we have now. We do know there will be only 1 new ability per class, which means that the rest of the trees that have abilities built into them will not change. That's not a stretch, and I think it's fair to say that if the abilities on the skill trees are going to stay the same, then there's not a ton of reworking of the trees themselves that are going to change how you play your class. So, I expect the skills aspect of this update to be very minor.

 

Regarding their need for additional revenue to pay for this type of content, I do sympathise with them for creating a business model that wasn't sustainable. The fact remains that asking me to pay 150 bucks a year to play the game and then hitting me with extra fees to download content updates is not "industry standard." I'm not willing to do it when there are other games that charge subscription fees and don't charge for this type of content.

 

All things being equal, this is my game, but I'm not going to assist them in changing the business model. I'm downgrading my 6 mo subscription to a month to month now, and if I hit a paywall to have them keep developing content for me, I'll unsubscribe.

[Altyrell]

Last I checked with most Expansions you have to pay for them, only a few MMO's out there are the Expansions free. Also, Makeb is NOT the only thing in the Expansion, and so they changed from having Makeb be an Update to an Expansion. Plus where did they say that it would ONLY be 1 New Ability per Class? Edited January 4, 2013 by Altyrell

[Ignicity]

Last I checked with most Expansions you have to pay for them, only a few MMO's out there are the Expansions free. Also, Makeb is NOT the only thing in the Expansion, and so they changed from having Makeb be an Update to an Expansion, get over it.

 

 

 

The problem as I see it, and as I've already presented, is that all we know about this "Expansion" is that it was meant to be a free update, but after the F2P move, suddenly it's a paid for Expansion. What a load of ****.

 

 

 

*EDIT* he removed his "Get over it" comment so I guess I should to.

Edited January 4, 2013 by Ignicity

[Draloch]

I'm kinda confused, so would you be fine to pay $10 for an adventure pack as is, but not for an expansion that is roughly the same size and price as an adventure pack?

 

Its all just semantics really.

 

But this goes beyond that since most if not a lot of people are upset also because they don't even qualify this expansion as an adventure pack as you see it, but more of an content update, which they should be entitled to with free access.

 

I agree with your last statement there.

 

Adventure Pack isn't really something that goes with a subscription business model. If I pay them $150 per year, then these type of content updates are part of my expectation for that. I don't need something the size of Hoth to be a monthly update, but once a year or so, I do expect that size solo play update for my 150 bucks.

 

Adventure Pack is something that goes with a buy-to-play or free-to-play business model. You're developing content and that's how you get paid for your time. In a subscription model, you're getting paid as you go. I paid them for creating the original game by buying it. I paid them for EC, KUS, LI, Black Hole dailies, TFB, and Section X dailies by essentially rebuying the game every 4 months. A new planet of solo content is a legitimately large chunk of solo content, but since I'm basically re-buying the game every 4 months, the subscription business model is that they provide that to me without charging me extra.

 

I'm not willing to buy Adventure Packs period, at any price, when I'm already re-buying the game every 4 months with subscription fees.

[Mowermanx]

Yea, I'm sure telling people to get over it will change their point of view.

 

 

Get over yourself.

 

 

The problem as I see it, and as I've already presented, is that all we know about this "Expansion" is that it was meant to be a free update, but after the F2P move, suddenly it's a paid for Expansion. What a load of ****.

 

They changed their mind, wow, just wow, I dont think Ive ever heard of anyone ever doing that in the history of mankind...

[Ignicity]

They changed their mind, wow, just wow, I dont think Ive ever heard of anyone ever doing that in the history of mankind...

 

Yup, they changed their mind.

 

If your ok with that, why are you posting in this thread?

 

 

Obviously you aren't feeling Nickel and Dimed by them. Good for you.

[Altyrell]

The problem as I see it, and as I've already presented, is that all we know about this "Expansion" is that it was meant to be a free update, but after the F2P move, suddenly it's a paid for Expansion.

 

That is incorrect, the only thing that was supposedly supposed to be free was the World of Makeb. Everything else, to my knowledge wasn't advertised as being free. Heck even if went with the supposed leaked information that said we'd get Makeb with Update 1.whatever, no where did it say that we'd be going there because of the Hutt Cartel nor did it say any where that along with Update 1.whatever would we get a Level Cap increase or SGR's or new Abilities.

[jedimasterjac]

I don't think of the new level cap as a benefit. I think it's more something that they came up with as a way of putting this content patch behind a paywall. With no level cap, the 10 dollars would be optional. If you want to play the planet, you pay 10 dollars for it. If you don't want to play it (or don't want to pay), then you just don't get it and it doesn't really matter - you just lose access to a presumed daily area and maybe a flashpoint if that ends up being part of it.

 

They're raising the level cap so that they can force everyone who plays the game to buy Makeb. They won't be expanding the game at the level 50 tier any more, so if you want to benefit from your subscription, you MUST fork over an additional 10 dollars.

 

I understand that they are under the microscope of the EA shareholders and it's a very tough position to be in. Most of us heard the "miss" comment from the last quarterly loud and clear.

 

The thing is, if you can't treat your subscribers the way subscribers are supposed to be treated, then what the heck are you doing running an MMO in the first place? If you want to embrace free to play, then convert the game to free to play and charge for everything. If you want the guaranteed revenue stream of 12-15 bucks a month from subscriptions, then you really should be treating those subscribers with respect.

 

After having a couple weeks to consider this issue, I've decided that I won't be supporting this new and unprecented business model. I'm a responsible consumer and there are competing products out there that I can spend my entertainment budget on. When my current 6 month subscription wears out, I'll be converting to month to month and as soon as I'm unable to download a patch because it's locked behind a paywall, I'll unsubscribe and find another game to spend my money on.

 

I have nothing against the quality of the game and there's a small part of me that hopes the community team will compile a summary of the torrent of blowback threads from the past couple weeks, which will convince the business group at Bioware to change course. I'm in a guild that has been successful with the Operations content and I hate to leave those guys, but as we get closer to the paywall lock and there's no reversal of policy on charging subscribers, I'll be informing them of my decision so they can find a replacement for me before I go.

 

This is a very sad post for me. I've been playing this game since February of 2011 (fairly early on in beta testing). If not for the unfriendly business structure, I'd still like to play this game for a couple more years at least. My great hope was that I'd play this game until Titan and be ready to move on at that point. It looks like another game will probably have to be that bridge instead. Needless to say, I'm extremely disappointed.

Level cap was in the works before F2P my friend.

 

--Your friend from Jung Ma,

Jaceiy/Laokeui.

[Ignicity]

That is incorrect, the only thing that was supposedly supposed to be free was the World of Makeb. Everything else, to my knowledge wasn't advertised as being free. Heck even if went with the supposed leaked information that said we'd get Makeb with Update 1.whatever, no where did it say that we'd be going there because of the Hutt Cartel nor did it say any where that along with Update 1.whatever would we get a Level Cap increase or SGR's or new Abilities.

 

Don't just tell me I'm incorrect. Prove it.

 

 

You're incorrect. See! I can do that too. Only difference, is that I'm telling the truth.

Edited January 4, 2013 by Ignicity

[Altyrell]

Don't just tell me I'm incorrect. Prove it.

 

 

You're incorrect. See! I can do that too. Only difference, is that I'm telling the truth.

 

Well, so far from what I could find, Makeb wasn't mentioned until Rise of the Hutt Cartel and was at E3 and the only new World I could find on torhead's site was Varl. So I still don't get why people are saying that Makeb or even any of what will be in the Expansion was originally going to be free. I mean, so far I haven't found where they said it was going to be free only that they didn't say that it was going to be in an Expansion, possibly because they hadn't decided at that time

Edited January 4, 2013 by Altyrell

[Ignicity]

Well, so far from what I could find, Makeb wasn't mentioned until Rise of the Hutt Cartel and was at E3 and the only new World I could find on torhead's site was Varl. So I still don't get why people are saying that Makeb or even any of what will be in the Expansion was originally going to be free. I mean, so far I haven't found where they said it was going to be free only that they didn't say that it was going to be in an Expansion, possibly because they hadn't decided at that time

 

Google video search makeb and daniel erickson

 

 

Search engines are amazing.

[Altyrell]

Google video search makeb and daniel erickson

 

 

Search engines are amazing.

 

I will after I finish reading the article that George Lucas just got engaged.

 

I looked it up and while he didn't say that Makeb was going to be part of an Expansion, he at the same time didn't say that it wasn't going to be. It could be because they didn't decide on whether to have it be part of the 1st Expansion or not or because they weren't ready to talk about that part yet.

[Ignicity]

I will after I finish reading the article that George Lucas just got engaged.

 

I looked it up and while he didn't say that Makeb was going to be part of an Expansion, he at the same time didn't say that it wasn't going to be. It could be because they didn't decide on whether to have it be part of the 1st Expansion or not or because they weren't ready to talk about that part yet.

 

Conjecture

 

 

That's all your posts are full of.

Edited January 4, 2013 by Ignicity

[Arkerus]

The Makeb we are getting is the original leak plus additional....whatever. That much is obvious. We're not paying for just Makeb. Time will tell what else they added to it. Edited January 4, 2013 by Arkerus

[Goretzu]

That is incorrect, the only thing that was supposedly supposed to be free was the World of Makeb. Everything else, to my knowledge wasn't advertised as being free. Heck even if went with the supposed leaked information that said we'd get Makeb with Update 1.whatever, no where did it say that we'd be going there because of the Hutt Cartel nor did it say any where that along with Update 1.whatever would we get a Level Cap increase or SGR's or new Abilities.

 

The level cap increase may well be a "pay wall", if that is the case that is no a "bonus" that is in fact a big negative.

[Prysha]

Why are they still arguing?

 

What is so hard to just wait and see?

[mothear]

That is incorrect, the only thing that was supposedly supposed to be free was the World of Makeb. Everything else, to my knowledge wasn't advertised as being free. Heck even if went with the supposed leaked information that said we'd get Makeb with Update 1.whatever, no where did it say that we'd be going there because of the Hutt Cartel nor did it say any where that along with Update 1.whatever would we get a Level Cap increase or SGR's or new Abilities.

 

Making people pay for SGR, a new low perhaps?