I'm feeling Nickel and Dimed by Makeb

[Goretzu]

It "was" determined as a content patch, it is "now" an expansion. I would agree with you if the planet was the size of Section: X and that it did not come with a Heroic or Operations, but so far its larger than Section: X. Have you even been to Section: X? That was a pretty sizable area and the content there kept me amused for a few hours.

 

But since this expansion takes place in a totally new planet, with totally new NPC, voice acting, storyline, class levels and abilities, with obvious new end-game equipment, this would not qualify as a content. For me content patches are like taking old things and errr "patching" things up, not come up with totally new content.

 

 

 

I think the price is ok, perhaps a bit steep.

 

But it's not an expansion, it's an adventure pack.

 

 

Whatever the PR reason behind calling it and expansion, it isn't to do with content, its more likely to "justify" the price change.

[Draloch]

It's okay if you don't want RotHC. It's your right as a consumer to shop somewhere else. What baffles me is why people who have already decided to shop somewhere else remain on station (if you will) to soapbox and poison the community punch bowl. They can't be taking a freaking video game so seriously that they look for ways to be offended by it.

 

It's called activism.

 

I happen to care about the future of the MMO business model and I'm willing to be a little bit of an activist to try to prevent the model shifting to one where companies can charge a subscription fee and then charge more to download patches that have new content.

 

This isn't some great new expansion to the game. This is a single player content patch in the same mold as a new collection of space missions, or a couple new warzones, or a new tier of operations. I know there's this huge movement from the company defenders to wait for more information, but there's plenty of information already. We may not know all the details but we know plenty. It's a simple content patch gated behind an artificial level increase that enforces the paywall.

 

With activism, we can maybe prevent this from taking hold.

 

There are real world examples of activism working.

 

Because of activism, black people get to use the same public restrooms as white people. I'm sure there were plenty of people who didn't like the chanting groups of mostly black people forming and protesting segregation. I'm sure those people thought that these 'uppity negroes' were "poisoning the community punchbowl" when they could just as easily use the negro-only restrooms and drinking fountains. But, thanks to activism, we don't have segregation laws.

 

There are also real world examples of negative consequences that might have been prevented with activism.

 

Because we didn't do anything to prevent companies from shutting down virtually all manufacturing in this country and shipping jobs over to sweat shops in China, we no longer really have a manufacturing sector of our economy. Those jobs just don't exist any more. Everything you buy just about anywhere says "made in China" now. You literally cannot buy any type of shoes anywhere that say "made in the U.S.A." I grew up in the 80's. No one saw that coming. There was some general sense of concern that we were starting to outsource manufacturing, but there was no activism. There was no concerted effort to stop it. Now, manufacturing is gone and our economy is worse off for it.

 

Now, you can be as critical as you want of me for choosing to be passionate about this game, but the truth is that Bioware is trying to grab some short term money right now because they haven't made very good financial decisions. This is just another domino on the path to financial ruin. They are going to lose subscribers over this and they are going to lose potential subscribers when ftp people hit level 50 and are hit with a sudden $20 paywall to keep playing. This is bad for everyone.

 

If this game can be saved, it's going to be saved by activists. We're not poisoning the well. We're fighting for a better environment. Today we use our voices to speak truth to power. If Bioware doesn't change course, then we'll use our wallets. EA will see the loss of subs and shut down the game, and we'll have saved the industry by telling a cautionary tale for any other MMORPG makers who think they can charge their users a subscription fee on top of content download fees.

[Goretzu]

It's called activism.

 

If this game can be saved, it's going to be saved by activists. We're not poisoning the well. We're fighting for a better environment. Today we use our voices to speak truth to power. If Bioware doesn't change course, then we'll use our wallets. EA will see the loss of subs and shut down the game, and we'll have saved the industry by telling a cautionary tale for any other MMORPG makers who think they can charge their users a subscription fee on top of content download fees.

 

 

Indeed, the only way SWTOR is going to come close to achieving its potential is by doing the right things.......... not mostly doing the wrong ones.

Edited January 3, 2013 by Goretzu

[Etheric]

It's called activism.

 

I happen to care about the future of the MMO business model and I'm willing to be a little bit of an activist to try to prevent the model shifting to one where companies can charge a subscription fee and then charge more to download patches that have new content.

 

This isn't some great new expansion to the game. This is a single player content patch in the same mold as a new collection of space missions, or a couple new warzones, or a new tier of operations. I know there's this huge movement from the company defenders to wait for more information, but there's plenty of information already. We may not know all the details but we know plenty. It's a simple content patch gated behind an artificial level increase that enforces the paywall.

 

With activism, we can maybe prevent this from taking hold.

 

There are real world examples of activism working.

 

Because of activism, black people get to use the same public restrooms as white people. I'm sure there were plenty of people who didn't like the chanting groups of mostly black people forming and protesting segregation. I'm sure those people thought that these 'uppity negroes' were "poisoning the community punchbowl" when they could just as easily use the negro-only restrooms and drinking fountains. But, thanks to activism, we don't have segregation laws.

 

There are also real world examples of negative consequences that might have been prevented with activism.

 

Because we didn't do anything to prevent companies from shutting down virtually all manufacturing in this country and shipping jobs over to sweat shops in China, we no longer really have a manufacturing sector of our economy. Those jobs just don't exist any more. Everything you buy just about anywhere says "made in China" now. You literally cannot buy any type of shoes anywhere that say "made in the U.S.A." I grew up in the 80's. No one saw that coming. There was some general sense of concern that we were starting to outsource manufacturing, but there was no activism. There was no concerted effort to stop it. Now, manufacturing is gone and our economy is worse off for it.

 

Now, you can be as critical as you want of me for choosing to be passionate about this game, but the truth is that Bioware is trying to grab some short term money right now because they haven't made very good financial decisions. This is just another domino on the path to financial ruin. They are going to lose subscribers over this and they are going to lose potential subscribers when ftp people hit level 50 and are hit with a sudden $20 paywall to keep playing. This is bad for everyone.

 

If this game can be saved, it's going to be saved by activists. We're not poisoning the well. We're fighting for a better environment. Today we use our voices to speak truth to power. If Bioware doesn't change course, then we'll use our wallets. EA will see the loss of subs and shut down the game, and we'll have saved the industry by telling a cautionary tale for any other MMORPG makers who think they can charge their users a subscription fee on top of content download fees.

 

I agree with you 100% and going straight from this post to cancel my account. Was an interesting year, have fun all.

[NecrologyX]

Good post and sums up pretty much exactly how I feel.

 

I also worry that this is the start of a new precedent for SWTOR. Are all future content updates going to be 10 bucks? Every 1.5-2 months we have to drop another 10 bucks on top of our 15 dollar fee? Thats an extra 60-80 bucks a year on top of the sub fee. While that;s not a lot of money in the grand scheme of things, I just don't think SWTOR is worth that at all.

 

I play video games (at this point pretty much only ToR) an average of 3 hours a day. Thats 21 hours a week 84 hours a month. That is $0.18 an hour to play this game. If they tack on 10-20 bucks every 6 months for a planet lets do some math and see what that ends up being.

 

504 hours / (90 dollars for sub + 20 for expac) = $0.21 an hour.

 

Lets redo that using 1 hour a day on average

 

180 hours / (90 dollars for sub + 20 for expac) = $0.61 an hour.

 

Lets compare this to a movie.

 

2 hours / 13.00 a ticket = $6.50 / hr

 

How about watching cable tv for 3 hours a day for a month

 

90 hours / 29.99 per mo (thats the intro price for basic cable from Comcast) = $0.33 / hr

 

So yeah, this is still the cheapest form of entertainment available.

[SithVeritas]

I play video games (at this point pretty much only ToR) an average of 3 hours a day. Thats 21 hours a week 84 hours a month. That is $0.18 an hour to play this game. If they tack on 10-20 bucks every 6 months for a planet lets do some math and see what that ends up being.

 

504 hours / (90 dollars for sub + 20 for expac) = $0.21 an hour.

 

Lets redo that using 1 hour a day on average

 

180 hours / (90 dollars for sub + 20 for expac) = $0.61 an hour.

 

Lets compare this to a movie.

 

2 hours / 13.00 a ticket = $6.50 / hr

 

How about watching cable tv for 3 hours a day for a month

 

90 hours / 29.99 per mo (thats the intro price for basic cable from Comcast) = $0.33 / hr

 

So yeah, this is still the cheapest form of entertainment available.

 

Well sure, if you're actually paying for all of those things..

[Fenshire]

I play video games (at this point pretty much only ToR) an average of 3 hours a day. Thats 21 hours a week 84 hours a month. That is $0.18 an hour to play this game. If they tack on 10-20 bucks every 6 months for a planet lets do some math and see what that ends up being.

 

504 hours / (90 dollars for sub + 20 for expac) = $0.21 an hour.

 

Lets redo that using 1 hour a day on average

 

180 hours / (90 dollars for sub + 20 for expac) = $0.61 an hour.

 

Lets compare this to a movie.

 

2 hours / 13.00 a ticket = $6.50 / hr

 

How about watching cable tv for 3 hours a day for a month

 

90 hours / 29.99 per mo (thats the intro price for basic cable from Comcast) = $0.33 / hr

 

So yeah, this is still the cheapest form of entertainment available.

 

Just because it's cheap, doesn't mean it's right.

 

Based on your philosophy, everyone in the United States should send me a penny. I would be happy with that, and it's only a penny. So come on!

[kamed]

I think the price is ok, perhaps a bit steep.

 

But it's not an expansion, it's an adventure pack.

 

 

Whatever the PR reason behind calling it and expansion, it isn't to do with content, its more likely to "justify" the price change.

 

I find that its the same thing either way. I don't mind paying like $10 since its still way cheaper than any of the Sims 3 expansions and probably offers more content than just a few couches and textures. Although some packs from the Sims were amazing.

[NecrologyX]

Bioware is in the business to make money. Subs were down, so they went F2P. With F2P you have a % of the population who are never ever going to pay for anything but still use resources and a % of the population who will only ever pay the 15/mo, and a % of the population who will pay the 15/mo plus extra each month to play dress up barbie.

 

Bioware is banking that the latter two categories outweigh the benefit of letting people play for free. The people that play get a more populated server so they have people to play with so technically its win win for everyone.

 

Of course, this means that Bioware needs to charge for things that in a true P2P environment might have been free. I would hope that Makeb is at least 5-10 hours of questing which seems about right with the pace of the 40-50 leveling with full +25% exp boosts and moderate amounts of rest plus at least a dungeon or three and maybe a raid.

 

Entertainment costs money. When you deem a form of entertainment to be not worth what someone is charging, you dont pay for it. I love football but I dont really want to pay for a ticket so I dont go to the games. I dont scream at the NFL for charging too much I just dont support them.

 

Also, I quit this game 3 months after it came out cause it was not worth the money - when I feel its not worth the money I will leave again.

[Goretzu]

I find that its the same thing either way. I don't mind paying like $10 since its still way cheaper than any of the Sims 3 expansions and probably offers more content than just a few couches and textures. Although some packs from the Sims were amazing.

 

No, it is a very different thing (historically in an MMORPG context).

 

Don't for a second think they didn't consider that seriously before deciding to call it an "expansion", what they are relasing is an "adventure pack", I suspect they are calling it an "expansion" so they can attempt to deflect "paywall" criticism with the level rise.

[Trevalon]

I play video games (at this point pretty much only ToR) an average of 3 hours a day. Thats 21 hours a week 84 hours a month. That is $0.18 an hour to play this game. If they tack on 10-20 bucks every 6 months for a planet lets do some math and see what that ends up being.

 

504 hours / (90 dollars for sub + 20 for expac) = $0.21 an hour.

 

Lets redo that using 1 hour a day on average

 

180 hours / (90 dollars for sub + 20 for expac) = $0.61 an hour.

 

Lets compare this to a movie.

 

2 hours / 13.00 a ticket = $6.50 / hr

 

How about watching cable tv for 3 hours a day for a month

 

90 hours / 29.99 per mo (thats the intro price for basic cable from Comcast) = $0.33 / hr

 

So yeah, this is still the cheapest form of entertainment available.

 

At what point are defenders going to realize that it's not about the money.

[spectreclees]

At what point are defenders going to realize that it's not about the money.

 

When they stop making threads titled "I'm feeling nickled and dimed by Makeb".

Edited January 3, 2013 by spectreclees

[AlienEyeTX]

No, it is a very different thing (historically in an MMORPG context).

 

Don't for a second think they didn't consider that seriously before deciding to call it an "expansion", what they are relasing is an "adventure pack", I suspect they are calling it an "expansion" so they can attempt to deflect "paywall" criticism with the level rise.

 

So your issue is just what they're calling it? Who cares what it's called. All that matters is the content and the price. Call it a value meal for all it really matters.

 

By the way, it's looking like a good deal for the money.

[ryathal]

When they stop making threads titled "I'm feeling nickled and dimed by Makeb".

 

You realize that expression meanspittance I have the money I would just rather pay a single honest fee than a pittance every so often for things that shouldn't cost money.

[TheBBP]

I will not be resubbing. They already got me for pre-ordering Makeb and I will just accept that loss.

 

From day 1 there are two things that have not been allowed here.

1. Politics
   
2. Religion
   

 

 

Ever since this topic came up and folks started talking about bringing GLAAD into this, the entire subject of SGRs has unabashedly flown directly in the face of politics and religion. Point-in-case, it seems that everyone who disagrees with the subject is not just showing a dissenting opinion, they are labeled as a bigot and their opinion as hate speech. Those very acts are politicizing the issue and should not be allowed.

 

Add in the fact that this somehow became a priority, tells me that the developers do not have my best interests in mind and my money is best spent elsewhere.

 

I had a ton of fun in this game and will be a bit sad to go. It sucks that it came to this.

Edited January 3, 2013 by TheBBP

[kamed]

No, it is a very different thing (historically in an MMORPG context).

 

Don't for a second think they didn't consider that seriously before deciding to call it an "expansion", what they are relasing is an "adventure pack", I suspect they are calling it an "expansion" so they can attempt to deflect "paywall" criticism with the level rise.

 

Meh, none of us here seriously know exactly how large this "expansion" is beyond what said by Bioware employees, unless you have insider information, therefore we cannot even draw to those conclusions. The best thing to do is actually sit and wait to see how large/small this really is.

 

I can tell you this though, I'm not really gonna miss my $10. Even if it is an adventure pack, I think its priced accordingly to standards of adventure packs out there.

 

Although I think adventure packs don't come with level increases. Think of Dragon Age games, those DLCs didn't raise your level at all, but afforded you some extra quest and companion, some shinys or something for a total of $5-10. Now look at Fallout games, those packs only had 6 hours of gameplay and increased your level by 5, but they charged you $20 when it first came out. Then you have Dragon Age Awakening priced at a full game, but almost the same amount of game content.

[Goretzu]

So your issue is just what they're calling it? Who cares what it's called. All that matters is the content and the price. Call it a value meal for all it really matters.

 

By the way, it's looking like a good deal for the money.

 

No, that is AN issue with it.

 

There are several more issues with Makeb, potential and certain.

 

Although as you say them calling it an "expansion" doesn't make it an "expansion" if it is just an "adventure pack".

[Goretzu]

Meh, none of us here seriously know exactly how large this "expansion" is beyond what said by Bioware employees, unless you have insider information, therefore we cannot even draw to those conclusions. The best thing to do is actually sit and wait to see how large/small this really is.

 

I can tell you this though, I'm not really gonna miss my $10. Even if it is an adventure pack, I think its priced accordingly to standards of adventure packs out there.

 

Although I think adventure packs don't come with level increases. Think of Dragon Age games, those DLCs didn't raise your level at all, but afforded you some extra quest and companion, some shinys or something for a total of $5-10. Now look at Fallout games, those packs only had 6 hours of gameplay and increased your level by 5, but they charged you $20 when it first came out. Then you have Dragon Age Awakening priced at a full game, but almost the same amount of game content.

 

 

We know exactly how large it is - the size of Belsavis.

[JPLaro]

i've been having a generally negative feeling all week about the announcement to charge for the next content update. I'm someone who has kind of grown up with the subscription model. The business model that i'm used to has me paying 15 dollars a month for a game to play, including regular content updates including solo content, open world group content, minor gameply updates -i'm not talking about bugs-, and raiding updates.

 

I want to be careful to say that i'm not being critical of the makeb content update. I think you guys have done a fine job of releasing new content on a timely scale. If not for the nickel and dime aspect, i would be energized and excited about a nice planet to play next spring.

 

Every couple years, i expect an expansion that significantly updates the game. In swtor i would expecte a full rework of all classes so they play different and the game legitimately feels updated. I would expect a full act 4 including a minimum of 3 voss/belsavis/corelia sized planets, a class story that progresses through each planet for all 8 base classes, and some evolution of my relationship with my companions. I would also expect to see at least a couple new flashpoints, and at least 1 new tier of operations. I would pay 40 dollars for this. I also wouldn't expect this to happen this year. It would be a 2014 thing.

 

This is the business model that i'm comfortable with.

 

Instead, in a few months, i'm going to be asked to pay additional money to download a content patch hidden behind a paywall. If i don't pay, then i don't get to continue playing endgame content. It feels wrong and it makes me wonder if this is going to be the new normal for swtor. If it is, then does that mean i shouldn't ever expect to see a big expansion that reworks all the classes and makes the game feel fresh again? Should i never expect to have months of new class stories to discover? Will there even be an act 4? How many times will i have to plunk down 10 dollar bills for content updates in addition to my 15 dollars a month i already pay before i see a real expansion?

 

I've kind of been feeling crappy all week about this announcement and i haven't been sure how to word it. I'm not going to pre-order the patch and hopefully, my opinion will evolve as more information comes out.

 

Regardless, i realize that when this content is released, i will be making a final decision to accept the new "pay us 10 bucks when we tell you to" business model or leave the game i enjoy playing forever.

 

That is, unless the business team behind the game changes their mind and offers the patch for free to subscribers.

 

hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha

[kamed]

We know exactly how large it is - the size of Belsavis.

 

You know that's only 1 dimension you are looking at... I am talking about actual "content" content such as questing, heroics, storylines, flashpoints if any, pvp areas if any, daily areas if any, ops if any and warzones if any. Then we also know that there are datacrons in there somewhere.

 

We can also speculate that new levels = totally new items (hopefully new craftable things as well).

We can also speculate that there will definitely new combat mechanics involved with the increased level.

 

But you still haven't addressed the fact that adventure packs only adds quest, but not levels, whereas expansions extend levels. I can consider Belsavis Section X a new adventure pack content update since it did not increase levels, but added new areas to explore and new quest storylines namely HK-51.

[kamed]

But seriously I would agree with anyone here that the expansion is just a content update, if the expansion did not increase my level though. I am disappointed that it isn't free, but I anticipated this since F2P came out.

[Goretzu]

You know that's only 1 dimension you are looking at... I am talking about actual "content" content such as questing, heroics, storylines, flashpoints if any, pvp areas if any, daily areas if any, ops if any and warzones if any. Then we also know that there are datacrons in there somewhere.

 

We can also speculate that new levels = totally new items (hopefully new craftable things as well).

We can also speculate that there will definitely new combat mechanics involved with the increased level.

 

But you still haven't addressed the fact that adventure packs only adds quest, but not levels, whereas expansions extend levels. I can consider Belsavis Section X a new adventure pack content update since it did not increase levels, but added new areas to explore and new quest storylines namely HK-51.

 

No PvP areas from what they've said, and I can't see quest density being that much great than Belsavis as it is ones of the denser planets as it is (compared to say Hoth), so there simply cannot be that much content due to the square footage.

 

There is 1 planet story line per faction (called Ch4, but it is not seperate for classes).

 

They've not mentioned any WZ, FPs or OPs so far (however they've talked about redoing current FP/OPs for L55 so I'm not sure there will be any), but I would be surprised if there weren't any daily quests.

 

 

 

Bolting on levels to an "adventure pack", does NOT make it an "expansion", it makes it an "adventure pack (with levels bolted on)".

 

Any more than bolting a jet engine to a car makes it a plane.

Edited January 3, 2013 by Goretzu

[AlienEyeTX]

You know that's only 1 dimension you are looking at... I am talking about actual "content" content such as questing, heroics, storylines, flashpoints if any, pvp areas if any, daily areas if any, ops if any and warzones if any. Then we also know that there are datacrons in there somewhere.

 

We can also speculate that new levels = totally new items (hopefully new craftable things as well).

We can also speculate that there will definitely new combat mechanics involved with the increased level.

 

But you still haven't addressed the fact that adventure packs only adds quest, but not levels, whereas expansions extend levels. I can consider Belsavis Section X a new adventure pack content update since it did not increase levels, but added new areas to explore and new quest storylines namely HK-51.

 

Yeah, 5 levels (high end) on one planet seems like much more content than pretty much any other planet. Especially if there is no class story, too. That's A LOT of questing to start this new Hutt Cartel story.

[kamed]

Bolting on levels to an "adventure pack", does NOT make it an "expansion", it makes it an "adventure pack (with levels bolted on)".

 

Any more than bolting a jet engine to a car makes it a plane.

 

 

So what would define an expansion or adventure pack then? We have very differing opinions of what it is. Bethseda thinks adding 5 levels and 1 new area to be a DLC expansion worth $20. Bioware thinks that adding a 2-hour Shadow Broker DLC adventure pack with no level increase or the numerous adventure packs from Dragon Age 1 cost at +$10.

 

The arguments here is essentially "the expansion is not an expansion, because I say so" or "the expansion is not an expansion, because they told me I would not have to pay for it, but now they changed their mind".

[Mowermanx]

No PvP areas from what they've said, and I can't see quest density being that much great than Belsavis as it is ones of the denser planets as it is (compared to say Hoth), so there simply cannot be that much content due to the square footage.

 

There is 1 planet story line per faction (called Ch4, but it is not seperate for classes).

 

They've not mentioned any WZ, FPs or OPs so far (however they've talked about redoing current FP/OPs for L55 so I'm not sure there will be any), but I would be surprised if there weren't any daily quests.

 

 

 

Bolting on levels to an "adventure pack", does NOT make it an "expansion", it makes it an "adventure pack (with levels bolted on)".

 

Any more than bolting a jet engine to a car makes it a plane.

 

You're really stretching now, you have no idea, yet babble on as if you know enough to try and lecture the forum about the worth of makeb?

The quality of these forums seems to be diving by the day...