Would "Hold the Line" Fix Commandos?

[Smashbrother]

No, immunity to roots needs to be rare. A ranged class can still DPS while it is rooted or snared. Mercs don't need it and they shouldn't get it.

 

Currently AP PT, with full resolve and hydraulic overrides is the only class in the game that can ignore any form of control and it needs to stay this way. Mercs already got a tech/physical cleanse, with some of the roots like legshot being physical, you are already in a good shape against some control.

 

Unremitting would like to say hi.

 

Same with a full resolved sage who has egress.

Edited December 10, 2012 by Smashbrother

[NoTomorrow]

Unremitting would like to say hi.

 

Same with a full resolved sage who has egress.

 

Its 4 seconds for unstoppable and 2 sec for force speed, the shield is 12 sec min, up to 18 with set bonuses.

[SenseX]

A) Give cover benefits to another class and why be a sniper?

B) The downside of the cover mechanic is lack of mobility, so you essentially want all the perks without the drawbacks.

 

Mercs/Commandos already have close to 0 mobility, so at the moment I see it more as them having all the drawbacks without any of the perks...

 

It wouldn't be exactly like a Sniper in cover by the way, e.g. Sniper are immune to interrupts while in cover, the Merc/Commando would only get the leap immunity, just permanently.

 

In essence a passive ability for Commandos which could be called "Static Field Generator" or something... "Prevents the use of Jet Charge and Force Charge on you." - and an equivalent for Mercs.

 

Class fixed.

 

P.S.: The best part is, this wouldn't have any influence at all on the current PvE balancing, as (1.) this is pointless in PvE and (2.) Mercs/Commandos are actually fine in PvE, they're just broken in PvP.

Edited December 10, 2012 by SenseX

[CharterMonkKent]

Mercs/Commandos already have close to 0 mobility, so at the moment I see it more as them having all the drawbacks without any of the perks...

 

It wouldn't be exactly like a Sniper in cover by the way, e.g. Sniper are immune to interrupts while in cover, the Merc/Commando would only get the leap immunity, just permanently.

 

In essence a passive ability for Commandos which could be called "Static Field Generator" or something... "Prevents the use of Jet Charge and Force Charge on you." - and an equivalent for Mercs.

 

Class fixed.

 

I'd be fine with leap immunity but only on a cooldown (even if off global cooldown). I wouldn't want to easy mode this game anymore than it already is. Having to balance the cooldowns of an anti-leap cooldown and a knockback could be fun (and somewhat challenging)

 

OR. A ability (on cooldown) that immediately knocksback anyone who leaps to the commando. Of course jugg/guardians spec'd mid tree could still leap to commandos because of their immunity post leap.

 

Without thinking about it any deeper I think I'd be fine with that change.

[NoTomorrow]

I'd be fine with leap immunity but only on a cooldown (even if off global cooldown). I wouldn't want to easy mode this game anymore than it already is. Having to balance the cooldowns of an anti-leap cooldown and a knockback could be fun (and somewhat challenging)

 

OR. A ability (on cooldown) that immediately knocksback anyone who leaps to the commando. Of course jugg/guardians spec'd mid tree could still leap to commandos because of their immunity post leap.

 

Without thinking about it any deeper I think I'd be fine with that change.

 

A cooldown with leap immunity would fix 99% of all their problems.

[CharterMonkKent]

A cooldown with leap immunity would fix 99% of all their problems.

 

But it would cause many others. Whatever change they make to help out our merc toons, I'd hate for it to break something else.

 

Having it be an ability that players need to strategically figure out when to use.. would be acceptable. Having it be passive would be too much.

[Jadescythe]

Mercs/Commandos already have close to 0 mobility, so at the moment I see it more as them having all the drawbacks without any of the perks...

 

It wouldn't be exactly like a Sniper in cover by the way, e.g. Sniper are immune to interrupts while in cover, the Merc/Commando would only get the leap immunity, just permanently.

 

In essence a passive ability for Commandos which could be called "Static Field Generator" or something... "Prevents the use of Jet Charge and Force Charge on you." - and an equivalent for Mercs.

 

Class fixed.

 

P.S.: The best part is, this wouldn't have any influence at all on the current PvE balancing, as (1.) this is pointless in PvE and (2.) Mercs/Commandos are actually fine in PvE, they're just broken in PvP.

 

Sure, mercs are reliant on casting and being stationary for most damage in arsenal, but you would have leap immunity when moving around the map as well. The drawback to cover is that breaking LOS forces them to leave cover and makes them susceptible to gap closers. There would literally be no way to attack a merc short of facetanking your way all the way to them if you're a melee class.

 

The merc KB already pushes you halfway across the map. Maras might as well pop UR to close the gap, you can probably take more than half their life away free casting at them while they run up to you anyway.

 

If you really want to fix mercs in PVP, respec pyro and have them put it on par with PTs. The entire point of Arsenal is to stand still and cast, which is the worst thing you can do in PVP.

[SenseX]

But it would cause many others. Whatever change they make to help out our merc toons, I'd hate for it to break something else.

 

Having it be an ability that players need to strategically figure out when to use.. would be acceptable. Having it be passive would be too much.

 

I still think giving leap immunity to them as a passive would be fine.

 

A Sniper would still kill a Commando at range, because of the dodge while in cover mechanic and interrupt immunity, it's absolutely no change here.

 

A Marauder who knows what he's doing, get himself knocked back, use Force Camouflage at the right moment, etc. would still be able to faceroll a Commando if he wanted to, but it wouldn't be easy mode facerolling any more.

 

It would just make the class overall playable in PvP without having to balance and re-balance a lot of other stuff.

 

The merc KB already pushes you halfway across the map. Maras might as well pop UR to close the gap, you can probably take more than half their life away free casting at them while they run up to you anyway.

 

If you really want to fix mercs in PVP, respec pyro and have them put it on par with PTs. The entire point of Arsenal is to stand still and cast, which is the worst thing you can do in PVP.

 

This is only true for PTs and Juggernauts. A Marauder can simply use Force Camouflage as a gap closer.

 

Which is the whole point. By simply adding this, it makes the class viable against certain classes (e.g. PTs and Juggernauts) while still leaving it vulnerable to others (e.g. Sniper and Marauder).

 

That's the way it's supposed to be, like Rock, Paper, Scissors = Balance in the Force

Edited December 10, 2012 by SenseX

[cashogy]

General Mercenary:

- Missile Blast now slows the enemy by 30% for 6s (Mercenary only change, will not affect Powertech's Missile Blast)

 

Arsenal Tree:

- change Muzzle Fluting, a tier 2 box, to the following: Muzzle Fluting: Reduces the activation time of Power Shot and Tracer Missile by 0.5 seconds. In addition, Rocket Punch has a 100% chance to proc 3 charges of "Run and Gun". Abilities with cast times will activate instantly, and consume 1 charge of "Run and Gun". "Run and Gun" lasts for 15s, or until all charges are consumed. This effect cannot occur more than once every 15s

- power barrier -> change this back to 2% damage reduction per stack

- change Afterbuners, a tier 3 box, to the following: Rocket Punch has a [50 / 100]% chance to KNOCKBACK AND IMMOBILIZE the target for 4 seconds. Damage caused after 2 seconds ends the effect. In addition, Jet Boost's knockback effect is stronger and pushes enemies [2 / 4] meters further away.

- change Jet Escape, a tier 4 box, to the following: Reduces the cooldown of Jet Boost by [2.5 seconds / 5 seconds] and Determination by [15 seconds / 30 seconds] AND you have a [50 / 100]% chance to increase your movement speed by 30% for 4s after using Jet Boost

 

 

Pyrotech Tree:

- switch System Calibrations (tier 1 Pyrotech) with Hired Muscle (tier 1 Combat Medic).

- change Hired Muscle to [2 / 4]% tech and ranged critical chance increase

- change Deguass, a tier 3 box, to the following: Energy Shield has a [50 / 100]% chance to remove all movement-impairing effects when activated and a [50 / 100]% chance to be immune to all movement-impairing effects for the duration of Energy Shield

 

 

Combat Medic Tree:

- switch System Calibrations (tier 1 Pyrotech) with Hired Muscle (tier 1 Combat Medic).

- change System Calibrations to increase alacrity by [1 / 3 / 5]%

- change Superheated Gas, a tier 2 box, to vent 16 heat (up from 8)

- allow Kolto Shell to be applied to an unlimited number of allies, and reduce its heat cost to 8

- change Cure Mind, a tier 5 box to the following: Cure now removes negative mental AND FORCE effects and heals the target for X

- reduce cooldown of Emergency Scan to 18s

[CharterMonkKent]

General Mercenary:

- Missile Blast now slows the enemy by 30% for 6s (Mercenary only change, will not affect Powertech's Missile Blast)

 

Arsenal Tree:

- change Muzzle Fluting, a tier 2 box, to the following: Muzzle Fluting: Reduces the activation time of Power Shot and Tracer Missile by 0.5 seconds. In addition, Rocket Punch has a 100% chance to proc 3 charges of "Run and Gun". Abilities with cast times will activate instantly, and consume 1 charge of "Run and Gun". "Run and Gun" lasts for 15s, or until all charges are consumed. This effect cannot occur more than once every 15s

- power barrier -> change this back to 2% damage reduction per stack

- change Afterbuners, a tier 3 box, to the following: Rocket Punch has a [50 / 100]% chance to KNOCKBACK AND IMMOBILIZE the target for 4 seconds. Damage caused after 2 seconds ends the effect. In addition, Jet Boost's knockback effect is stronger and pushes enemies [2 / 4] meters further away.

- change Jet Escape, a tier 4 box, to the following: Reduces the cooldown of Jet Boost by [2.5 seconds / 5 seconds] and Determination by [15 seconds / 30 seconds] AND you have a [50 / 100]% chance to increase your movement speed by 30% for 4s after using Jet Boost

 

 

Pyrotech Tree:

- switch System Calibrations (tier 1 Pyrotech) with Hired Muscle (tier 1 Combat Medic).

- change Hired Muscle to [2 / 4]% tech and ranged critical chance increase

- change Deguass, a tier 3 box, to the following: Energy Shield has a [50 / 100]% chance to remove all movement-impairing effects when activated and a [50 / 100]% chance to be immune to all movement-impairing effects for the duration of Energy Shield

 

 

Combat Medic Tree:

- switch System Calibrations (tier 1 Pyrotech) with Hired Muscle (tier 1 Combat Medic).

- change System Calibrations to increase alacrity by [1 / 3 / 5]%

- change Superheated Gas, a tier 2 box, to vent 16 heat (up from 8)

- allow Kolto Shell to be applied to an unlimited number of allies, and reduce its heat cost to 8

- change Cure Mind, a tier 5 box to the following: Cure now removes negative mental AND FORCE effects and heals the target for X

- reduce cooldown of Emergency Scan to 18s

 

Run and Gun could work. It would create heat issues if abused, so that could keep it in check.

[Invictusthetaru]

Some good ideas here.

 

I play a full time tactics vanguard on my vanguard and I must say that if assault specs got that talent (8 seconds of immunity from everything except stuns and mezzes) they would be overpowered as hell.

 

Right now the reason assault isn't over powered is because it's easy to control, they get that burst because they have no utility.

 

Hold the line is the ultimate utility, and assault specs don't need it. I also think a 30m ranged class having it is VERY overpowered.

 

As it stands it's used mostly to kite melee and stay within 10m. If you could kite and stay within 30? Lol. Pretty broken. Good idea though.

[Invictusthetaru]

Sure, mercs are reliant on casting and being stationary for most damage in arsenal, but you would have leap immunity when moving around the map as well. The drawback to cover is that breaking LOS forces them to leave cover and makes them susceptible to gap closers. There would literally be no way to attack a merc short of facetanking your way all the way to them if you're a melee class.

 

The merc KB already pushes you halfway across the map. Maras might as well pop UR to close the gap, you can probably take more than half their life away free casting at them while they run up to you anyway.

 

If you really want to fix mercs in PVP, respec pyro and have them put it on par with PTs. The entire point of Arsenal is to stand still and cast, which is the worst thing you can do in PVP.

 

I agree that leap immunity is OP, but saying half your health when walking up? Even if you knew they were coming and they were 30 m away any good sent would cloak out and if they didn't at the MOST you get off 2 tracer missiles in gunnery and 1 rotation in assault (which can easily be mitigated by saber ward).

[Jadescythe]

I agree that leap immunity is OP, but saying half your health when walking up? Even if you knew they were coming and they were 30 m away any good sent would cloak out and if they didn't at the MOST you get off 2 tracer missiles in gunnery and 1 rotation in assault (which can easily be mitigated by saber ward).

 

Just hyperbole, I wouldn't pop UR as a lead in no matter if they could do that much damage or not. There would be ways around it, but put a merc on the catwalk in Huttball with leap immunity and you can have your way at mid. At least snipers/GSs have to uncover if you LOS them. Mercs would just have to not cast until they move while keeping immunity.

[Invictusthetaru]

Just hyperbole, I wouldn't pop UR as a lead in no matter if they could do that much damage or not. There would be ways around it, but put a merc on the catwalk in Huttball with leap immunity and you can have your way at mid. At least snipers/GSs have to uncover if you LOS them. Mercs would just have to not cast until they move while keeping immunity.

 

Yeah I understand, it would be ridiculous, just saying no merc is taking out half your health at 30 m, you'd be surprised how fast that gap closes

[SenseX]

Yeah I understand, it would be ridiculous, just saying no merc is taking out half your health at 30 m, you'd be surprised how fast that gap closes

 

Well... any Assassin could still just walk up in stealth and proceed to destroy him.

Even the most paranoid Commando isn't using Stealth Scan all the time when he's busy trying to kill someone...

 

Besides giving them this ability would make them interesting to have for a team, almost needed for a team, like the way that a Sorc is needed for bubbles or the way a Carnage Marauder is needed for Predation.

 

Just for the record, I'm playing Sentinel (mainly) and Sorc (sometimes) ... it's not like I would benefit from this in any way, actually it would make my life in WZs harder most of the time... I just think Commandos need to be fixed for PvP and giving them a passive which makes them immune to pulls/jumps is a very easy way to do it.

Edited December 10, 2012 by SenseX

[Jadescythe]

Well... any Assassin could still just walk up in stealth and proceed to destroy him.

Even the most paranoid Commando isn't using Stealth Scan all the time when he's busy trying to kill someone...

 

Besides giving them this ability would make them interesting to have for a team, almost needed for a team, like the way that a Sorc is needed for bubbles or the way a Carnage Marauder is needed for Predation.

 

Just for the record, I'm playing Sentinel (mainly) and Sorc (sometimes) ... it's not like I would benefit from this in any way, actually it would make my life in WZs harder most of the time... I just think Commandos need to be fixed for PvP.

 

The issue is that we are trying to fix a spec that is inherently bad for the PVP environment. In PVE, standing at range and unloading freely on bosses has to do significant damage. If you could do that same kind of damage in warzones without some way to prevent it, then the class will be OP (pre TM nerf). Forcing them to be stationary and giving melee classes gap closers are the way to balance out their ability to freecast from 30 meters.

 

There is a theme in this game: mobility rules all. Operatives are by far the best PVP healers. PTs are powerful because they can do their damage on the move. Pretty much all melee classes are powerful. Sniper is the exception because of all the tools they are provided to specifically destroy melee classes. If all ranged classes had the same tools, then there would be no reason to bring melee at all. I'm not saying they shouldn't have kiting tools, but certainly not immunity to gap closers from 3 melee classes.

 

So focus on Pyro for mercs and madness for sorcs since they are the most mobile specs offered. Don't mess with Arsenal or you'll piss off most of the PVE population (most of the population left for that matter). If you really want to help mercs, give them a root or something in Arsenal just like sorcs have in lightning. 5 seconds, breaks after 2 with damage. Ultimately, I think you're fighting a losing battle trying to make turret specs viable in ranked warzones and keeping them balanced in PVE.

[PoliteAssasin]

Mercs are fine as is. No need to buff them.

[SOULCASTER]

In short: YES. Hold the Line would probably fix MOST of commando's escape issues. (Their inability to "run and gun" vs other classes would still be a problem, but thats another argument).

 

The problem however is that giving commando that skill would TOTALLY BONE the vanguard middle ''tactics'' tree. As its one of the keystone abilities in that tree.

 

They COULD make Hold-The-Line a Trooper (base class) ability so both Advanced Classes have it then, but they would still need to buff/add-to the Tactics tree of vanguard.

[SenseX]

The issue is that we are trying to fix a spec that is inherently bad for the PVP environment. In PVE, standing at range and unloading freely on bosses has to do significant damage. If you could do that same kind of damage in warzones without some way to prevent it, then the class will be OP (pre TM nerf). Forcing them to be stationary and giving melee classes gap closers are the way to balance out their ability to freecast from 30 meters.

 

There is a theme in this game: mobility rules all. Operatives are by far the best PVP healers. PTs are powerful because they can do their damage on the move. Pretty much all melee classes are powerful. Sniper is the exception because of all the tools they are provided to specifically destroy melee classes. If all ranged classes had the same tools, then there would be no reason to bring melee at all. I'm not saying they shouldn't have kiting tools, but certainly not immunity to gap closers from 3 melee classes.

 

So focus on Pyro for mercs and madness for sorcs since they are the most mobile specs offered. Don't mess with Arsenal or you'll piss off most of the PVE population (most of the population left for that matter). If you really want to help mercs, give them a root or something in Arsenal just like sorcs have in lightning. 5 seconds, breaks after 2 with damage. Ultimately, I think you're fighting a losing battle trying to make turret specs viable in ranked warzones and keeping them balanced in PVE.

 

Let's assume they would get the pull/leap immunity. Even then there would be plenty of ways to shut them down as Commandos can still be CC'ed like everyone else, they can be interrupted, they can be rooted, pushed away by Juggernauts, and so on. - People would probably have to learn to deal with it, but they would.

 

I also totally agree with you on the "don't mess with Arsenal" point. Commandos are perfectly fine for PvE.

That's why I'm suggesting such a passive ability: It has basically 0 impact on PvE.