Why are all the planets so linear?

[Master-Nala]

Sigh......

 

Both my wife and I did all the quests, and side quests, and bonus series for all planets. We both had to spend about a half hour fighting random mobs to level to 50.

 

It does not matter if you THINK it is not possible, it is. I know all of the content in the game. Have done it many different times on many different chars.

 

YOUR playstyle may have had you at 50 at certain points, does not mean others had the same experience.

 

Then that means you're not telling the truth. If you did the above list you would have made 50 by Voss. I don't care what your playstyle is. I know there is enough experience in those quests to get to 50 and then some.

 

EDIT: This isn't an opinion, it's a fact. There is more than enough content to hit 50. That's why I listed out every solo quest area. Just in case you didn't know about some bonus series or such. Did you really read the list I wrote? Because I'm honestly shocked you're still holding firm on this.

Edited December 10, 2012 by Master-Nala

[Goretzu]

What tricks are those?

 

Day/Night cycle.

Weather.

MOBs that move

MOBs that appear only at day (or night).

 

Etc. etc.

 

 

 

Ah. So someone gives reason to explore and you just toss it aside as not a good enough reason. I think you just don't like the game. Begs the question why are you still paying for it?

 

Hmm..... I like the datacrons, but they aren't really there for exploration (nor to make the planets feel less linear), they are like a cut down version of WARs Tome of Knowledge.

 

Most of them (past the starter planets anyway) you'd never come across through "normal" exploration, and whilst they are handy to get, once you get to them there often isn't a nice view or anything, just a convoluted path to get to them.

[Jawa-Punter]

What is a MMO to your mind?

A game where thousands of people share an open persistent world. SWTOR is at least 75% instanced while leveling and 100% instanced at endgame. They might as well just give up the act and have a lobby system. I'm not saying it's a bad game. I'm just saying it's trying as hard as it can not to be an MMO.

 

Edit: Pre-expansion Asheron's Call 2 is a good example. It's a terrible game, but a good example of what makes a game an MMO. I spent maybe 5% of my time there in an instance at the very most. In SWTOR I spend almost all of it in an instance. SWTOR actively discourages grouping in <50 PvE. Excluding flashpoints and heroics it's far more efficient to solo. Space missions are single player only. In AC2 it was nearly 100% grouping after about level 10.

Edited December 10, 2012 by Jawa-Punter

[Edzew]

No man, the planets get exponentially more expansive as you level through them.

 

Tatooine, Alderaan, and Hoth are absolutely huge.

 

im on tat now and its not that big

[Spiritinblack]

Then that means you're not telling the truth. If you did the above list you would have made 50 by Voss. I don't care what your playstyle is. I know there is enough experience in those quests to get to 50 and then some.

 

First..... You are a nobody in my life, ( as I am to you)

 

I don't need to lie to someone that is nothing to me.

 

Second, Your playstyle could have been different then mine. ( and apparently my wife's too). We skipped as many mobs as possible.

 

You can say you KNOW there is enough exp in them, when in fact you are GUESSING.

 

But nice having a convo with you. It is apparent that I am nothing more then a liar to your godly all knowing self.

[Master-Nala]

Day/Night cycle.

Weather.

MOBs that move

MOBs that appear only at day (or night).

 

Etc. etc.

 

Oh OK. I can respect that opinion. I would agree that would make things a bit more dynamic. But NPCs do move in this game.

[Vellem]

Sigh......

 

Both my wife and I did all the quests, and side quests, and bonus series for all planets. We both had to spend about a half hour fighting random mobs to level to 50.

 

It does not matter if you THINK it is not possible, it is. I know all of the content in the game. Have done it many different times on many different chars.

 

YOUR playstyle may have had you at 50 at certain points, does not mean others had the same experience.

 

Speaking from my own experience with my first character, I did the same type of questing you wrote about and hit 50 before I was even half way through Voss. So I'm not sure what you and your wife did differently.

[Master-Nala]

First..... You are a nobody in my life, ( as I am to you)

 

I don't need to lie to someone that is nothing to me.

 

Second, Your playstyle could have been different then mine. ( and apparently my wife's too). We skipped as many mobs as possible.

 

You can say you KNOW there is enough exp in them, when in fact you are GUESSING.

 

But nice having a convo with you. It is apparent that I am nothing more then a liar to your godly all knowing self.

 

Hey, you can get your feelings hurt all you want. But you're still not telling the truth. I'm not guessing. You just admitted that you didn't do all the quests. If you only did the base objectives, did that means you skipped the bonus quests right? You skipped dozens of quests. Which is what I said. Thanks for confirming.

Edited December 10, 2012 by Master-Nala

[Galbatorrix]

Sigh......

 

Both my wife and I did all the quests, and side quests, and bonus series for all planets. We both had to spend about a half hour fighting random mobs to level to 50.

 

It does not matter if you THINK it is not possible, it is. I know all of the content in the game. Have done it many different times on many different chars.

 

YOUR playstyle may have had you at 50 at certain points, does not mean others had the same experience.

 

Sorry, but I agree with the other guy...what you're saying simply isn't possible. Maybe as a F2P player, where your EXP is gimped, but as a sub? NO way you did every single quest in the game, including all bonus series and still have to grind mobs to hit 50. Heck, you even get an EXP boost for doign quests in a group, which you said you did.

 

My first level 50 was a Vanguard. I leveled him before the group finder and I also hardly ever did heroics because it was back when some of the servers were dead. I also didn't PVP with him much at all.

 

Here's what I did...

 

Ord Mantel - all quests

Coruscant - all quests

Taris - all quests plus bonus series

Nar Shaddaa - most quests, skipped heroics and some side quests

Tatooine - All quests and Bonus series

Alderaan - skipped ALL quests except for class quest (I was above level after the Tatooine bonus series and wanted to finish chapter 1 to get my legacy)

Balmorra - all quests except heroics

Quesh - all quests except heroics

Hoth - Most side quests, no heroics

Belsavvis - All quests except Heroics

Voss - all quests except heroics

Corellia - I was about 49 and a half at this point and hit 50 by only completing my class quest.

 

I did this without the grouping bonus you received and I did it by basically skipping 2 planets and skipping most of the bonus series.

[Goretzu]

Oh OK. I can respect that opinion. I would agree that would make things a bit more dynamic. But NPCs do move in this game.

 

Yeah some (a few) do move a bit, but even compared to EQ1 back in 1999 MOBs are pretty static in SWTOR.

 

 

(I'm not saying every MOB should roam for MILES like Brother Qwinn (rare EQ1 Monk epic quest wandering spawn of DOOM!!!!1111) around a zone , but still there's an awful lot of ground between that and SWTOR)

[Urael]

Sigh......

 

Both my wife and I did all the quests, and side quests, and bonus series for all planets. We both had to spend about a half hour fighting random mobs to level to 50.

 

It does not matter if you THINK it is not possible, it is. I know all of the content in the game. Have done it many different times on many different chars.

 

YOUR playstyle may have had you at 50 at certain points, does not mean others had the same experience.

 

NO you skipped. It is not possible to get off of VOSS without being level 50 if you do all the story/planet story/planet bonus missions. I have gotten to 50 on all my 50s before the end of the VOSS bonus series. I did no FPs, WZs, OPs, and no Heroic missions beyond the starter planet and home world Heroic missions. If you don't skip, the ENTIRE PLANET of Corellia is just comms and cash. You skipped something along the way.

Edited December 10, 2012 by Urael

[Spiritinblack]

Hey, you can get your feelings hurt all you want. But you're still not telling the truth. I'm not guessing. You just admitted that you didn't do all the quests. If you only did the base objectives, did that means you skipped the bonus quests right? You skipped dozens of quests. Which is what I said. Thanks for confirming.

 

Nice reading there.... can you please point out where I said I skipped quests?????

 

Oh that's right I did'nt.

 

Mobs on the other hand..... we ran by alot that we did not want to fight. Cause, ya know, there are alot that you don't have to fight.

 

I know all the quests.... have done then many times. But hey you keep thinking what you want...

[Urael]

I dont know that I have ever played an MMO that is so linear as SWTOR. You really can't explore much because the planets are actually "hallways" that you cant really divert from. Is this bad gaming design? Or, a product of the HeroEngine?

 

SWTOR feels more like a single player game to me. I mean we shouldn't have expected much more considoring Bioware is not an MMORPG company and never was. I guess we got what we should have expected from this inexperinced group of developers.

 

That's because it is compared to every other MMORPG that has ever existed.

[Master-Nala]

Yeah some (a few) do move a bit, but even compared to EQ1 back in 1999 MOBs are pretty static in SWTOR.

 

 

(I'm not saying every MOB should roam for MILES like Brother Qwinn (rare EQ1 Monk epic quest wandering spawn of DOOM!!!!1111) around a zone , but still there's an awful lot of ground between that and SWTOR)

 

No argument there. I think they tried a bit of that with the NPCs talking to each other. Some of those can be funny....the first 50 times.

 

I think all MMORPGs could stand to be a bit more dynamic. I'm not sold on day/night cycles though for every planet. In the Canon, Hoth is not survivable at night. You need to be in shelter by that point. So while that would be good on most planets, I wouldn't want to see it on all.

[Goretzu]

No argument there. I think they tried a bit of that with the NPCs talking to each other. Some of those can be funny....the first 50 times.

 

I think all MMORPGs could stand to be a bit more dynamic. I'm not sold on day/night cycles though for every planet. In the Canon, Hoth is not survivable at night. You need to be in shelter by that point. So while that would be good on most planets, I wouldn't want to see it on all.

 

 

 

I think thier "frozen in the moment" idea works for the faction split Taris really well, and for the faction split Balmorra to a lesser degree, and possibly the starter planets too.

 

But I'm pretty much sold on the idea that Day/Night would improve all the 2 faction planets in the game (which is basically all the other planets).

 

Hoth would be a bit tricky, I agree, but considering in the 3000 years between SWTOR and Empire Strikes Back Tauntauns had grown by at least 100% in size, maybe Hoth nights weren't so cold in SWTORs time.

[Master-Nala]

Nice reading there.... can you please point out where I said I skipped quests?????

 

Oh that's right I did'nt.

 

Mobs on the other hand..... we ran by alot that we did not want to fight. Cause, ya know, there are alot that you don't have to fight.

 

I know all the quests.... have done then many times. But hey you keep thinking what you want...

 

OK, did you mean what you said when you said this:

 

We skipped as many mobs as possible.

 

If you did that, then you skipped quests. Because some bonus quests won't even show up if you don't kill any enemies. I'll give you an example. I was on Belsavis last night with my Guardian. There is a random quest where a Rakata wants you to repair a generator. Well there is a bonus quest for killing Esh-Ka. You don't have to do it, and I didn't. I just ran around and fixed the generator and turned in. Took 5 min. But I skipped a quest. Which since he was 45 at the time is a good thing.

[nartiuslightlord]

I work on the current revision of Hero Engine everyday. I won't name the Indie MMO I'm working on, but lets say it a direct clone of SWG with a few twist.

 

The primary reason for the world designs in this MMO is based on the art style BW used. everything is super high detail hi-poly geometry. where as blizzards content designers use hand drawn 3d textures, to reduce draw calls over head and maintain a stable frame rate. that's why you can play Wow on a 586 based PC with many clients (players) connected in a single area.

 

TOR world designers have to create art that gives high detail look, but the layout has to be maze like to avoid exposing the renderer to unnecessary level of detail objects that are far away. this can be very taxing on any GPU, and creates significant drops in frame rate.

The only solution is to use more textures to simulate 3rd geometry and use the blizzard flat box polygon technique, which can look very cartoony.

You also have to remember for them to maintain the art style of TOR they had to lock view distance. which means depending on where you are at, you can see all of the 3d geometry in your view. so blocking views is effective design tool.

 

Now on planets like Hoth, it's not so bad because they have spread out the higher level of detail objects and use allot of billboards for the back grounds. they could re-design the renderer, or possibly use the Wow texture technique combined with less detailed objects to still keep with-in budget but allow more larger ares to be exposed for the player view.

 

And as for the reason for no day/night cycle, with shifting light source it would expose some of the seams or many of the seams that us designers try to hide, but sometimes we can't. also the art style they use would require a re-write of the shader that controls shadows, and that is a nightmare for an engineer on a retail game .

 

Much of that is stuff that has to be solved in alpha/beta so you can be flexible and allow designers well, to design.

[Jawa-Punter]

No argument there. I think they tried a bit of that with the NPCs talking to each other. Some of those can be funny....the first 50 times.

 

I think all MMORPGs could stand to be a bit more dynamic. I'm not sold on day/night cycles though for every planet. In the Canon, Hoth is not survivable at night. You need to be in shelter by that point. So while that would be good on most planets, I wouldn't want to see it on all.

Ryloth (the Twi'lek planet) was permanently day on one side and permanently night on the other. The twi'leks lived in the ring of twilight in the middle. The rest of the planet was uninhabitable due to the extreme temperatures.

Edited December 10, 2012 by Jawa-Punter

[Edzew]

WoW you can choose between two zones that runs the same story arc that all classes play (Your right I see the light now) .

 

You can color the quest in many different direction but the fact of the matter is its still the same quest line in WoW. At least here I can interact with my 8 different stories "THAT ARE DIFFERENT". WoW cannot do that and I can travel to multiple planets and have different Companion story lines to follow.

 

So as I was saying WoW is way more linear than SWTOR.

 

I have been playing since launch and I am no where near completing all the story in this game which is pretty vast IMO for a new MMO on the market. Leveling here is enjoyable and way better than any other MMO that I have played.

 

i was actually going to reply with this

Yet all classes have to level through the same planets, where over 66% (I'm generous) of the content is the EXACT SAME QUESTS.

but they beat me to it. but then you came in with this...

 

Have you played the game a 2nd time around or choose different paths (I.E. Story choice) in the story for planet quests and side quest. I have done that and believe me the out come are different on most of those quests.

Even if I did a 2nd round in playing another Merc and choose to take a dark path my story would be different. So tell me what is more linear two zones to choose from which have the same "Collect 20 pelts" or a story that gives you multiple avenues to play depending on how you want your character to interact in the game (I.E. Personality).

Seriously some of you are very funny.

 

first of all you are missing the point and secondly i don't think you know what linear is. i.e. the definition

i have played more than one of the classes and guess what they ended up on the same planet doing the same dam boring quest, so guess what that's linear!! and just because you choose a different option don't make it nonlinear B^P But that is all moot because we are talking about the planets are liniar i.e. small and keep you perty much on a path (not talking about quests at all) there isnt much room to explore and just roam in TOR and THAT is what we are saying.

 

Now since you brought up quests let me just say in WOW i had 6 Hunters on the same server and each one was different for me to level, yea they shared a couple of quests here or there but since i had 3 huge areas to roam around in and level in each one was different in its leveling.

[Goretzu]

I work on the current revision of Hero Engine everyday. I won't name the Indie MMO I'm working on, but lets say it a direct clone of SWG with a few twist.

 

The primary reason for the world designs in this MMO is based on the art style BW used. everything is super high detail hi-poly geometry. where as blizzards content designers use hand drawn 3d textures, to reduce draw calls over head and maintain a stable frame rate. that's why you can play Wow on a 586 based PC with many clients (players) connected in a single area.

 

TOR world designers have to create art that gives high detail look, but the layout has to be maze like to avoid exposing the renderer to unnecessary level of detail objects that are far away. this can be very taxing on any GPU, and creates significant drops in frame rate.

The only solution is to use more textures to simulate 3rd geometry and use the blizzard flat box polygon technique, which can look very cartoony.

You also have to remember for them to maintain the art style of TOR they had to lock view distance. which means depending on where you are at, you can see all of the 3d geometry in your view. so blocking views is effective design tool.

 

Now on planets like Hoth, it's not so bad because they have spread out the higher level of detail objects and use allot of billboards for the back grounds. they could re-design the renderer, or possibly use the Wow texture technique combined with less detailed objects to still keep with-in budget but allow more larger ares to be exposed for the player view.

 

Interesting so you're saying that they will have purposely designed the game worlds to do this, guess this might also explain the lack of views on city planets, except when your in a taxi.

 

 

And as for the reason for no day/night cycle, with shifting light source it would expose some of the seams or many of the seams that us designers try to hide, but sometimes we can't. also the art style they use would require a re-write of the shader that controls shadows, and that is a nightmare for an engineer on a retail game .

 

Much of that is stuff that has to be solved in alpha/beta so you can be flexible and allow designers well, to design.

 

That I'm not so convinced about, they have "baked in" shadows to be sure, but ignoring that and any engine limitations Day/Night has been around for a loooooong time now in the MMORPG world. If a particular manufactuer can't get their radio working on their particular make of car, it doesn't mean car radios cannot work.

[Galbatorrix]

i was actually going to reply with this but they beat me to it. but then you came in with this...

 

 

 

first of all you are missing the point and secondly i don't think you know what linear is. i.e. the definition

i have played more than one of the classes and guess what they ended up on the same planet doing the same dam boring quest, so guess what that's linear!! and just because you choose a different option don't make it nonlinear B^P But that is all moot because we are talking about the planets are liniar i.e. small and keep you perty much on a path (not talking about quests at all) there isnt much room to explore and just roam in TOR and THAT is what we are saying.

 

Now since you brought up quests let me just say in WOW i had 6 Hunters on the same server and each one was different for me to level, yea they shared a couple of quests here or there but since i had 3 huge areas to roam around in and level in each one was different in its leveling.

 

 

I had every single class in WOW between 70-85 when I quit (4 level 85s) and sorry, but the questing in that game was very tedious. You go to an area, except all of the quests without reading anything, run around to the quest locations, complete them, turn them in and move on. Leveling is nothing more than a grind to get to end game and no matter how many times you do it, it always feels that way. the environments change more often that in SWTOR, but the quests themselves are not fun for the most part. Any time I did do an interesting quest in WOW, I was both surprised and excited. But those type quests were very few and far between. Eventually, I just started leveling through group finder as I just couldn't stomach the solo quest grind in that game any more.

 

 

In SWTOR, the journey is actually fun. You're not trying to to rush to end game as fast as possible, but actually enjoy the ride. Even with multiple play throughs, it's fun to see reactions to different choices.

 

So, in conclusion, linear leveling that is very enjoyable >> slightly less linear leveling that feels like nothing more than a grind.

Edited December 10, 2012 by Galbatorrix

[NSStember]

just out of curiosity how is this game a breath of fresh air?? its just a restricted version of wow in space...very restricted!! the things that set it apart from other MMOs is very lame, the story driven game play, and not to mention the horrible voice acting.

 

Have to disagree on this one. I think the voice acting is superb and totally makes this game unique. Now when I go back to playing other online MMOs, I find that the bar has been raised and after a few "bubble chat" conversations with the NPCs find myself running back to SWTOR.

[Vlacke]

NO you skipped. It is not possible to get off of VOSS without being level 50 if you do all the story/planet story/planet bonus missions. I have gotten to 50 on all my 50s before the end of the VOSS bonus series. I did no FPs, WZs, OPs, and no Heroic missions beyond the starter planet and home world Heroic missions. If you don't skip, the ENTIRE PLANET of Corellia is just comms and cash. You skipped something along the way.

 

Exactly, my Commando was level 50 once he landed on Voss doing all the quests/heroics and bonus series, although i did play flashpoints and space missions.

[Urael]

I had every single class in WOW between 70-85 when I quit (4 level 85s) and sorry, but the questing in that game was very tedious. You go to an area, except all of the quests without reading anything, run around to the quest locations, completely them, turn them in and move on. Leveling is nothing more than a grind to get to end game and no matter how many times you do it, it always feels that way. the environments change more often that in SWTOR, but the quests themselves are not fun for the most part.

 

 

In SWTOR, the journey is actually fun. You're not trying to to rush to end game as fast as possible, but actually enjoy the ride. So, in conclusion, linear leveling that is very enjoyable >> slightly less linear leveling that feels like nothing more than a grind.

 

SWTOR is still just as tedious as WoW. Prolly more so because there is nothing to do at end game compared to WoW. SWTOR is a "single player RPG" with "elements of multi-player" more akin to a "lobby" game than a full blown MMORPG. The quests are linear because the company that made it only knows how to make linear progression games because that is all they ever made. WoW "used to be" more open. That changed with Cataclysm with MoP following suit. Prior to Cata and MoP there were multiple paths to level Cap. So much so that if you picked the same path it was your choice. There were many many options (and still are prior to level 85) to level thru WoW. SWTOR is no different in the regard of "get all the quests and go to the objectives". You are just slowed down on your way thru the game if you take the time to watch the cinematics. That is fine maybe the first time through ( and the first time for each story) after that it is just tedious and hard on your space bar.

[BJWyler]

I disagree. WoW, Rift, STO, CO, Aion, are not like that at all. LOTRO isnt either for that matter. Again, name another MMO that is linear and anti-explore as this one. Im sure there are some, maybe one's I havent played.

 

Guild Wars 1. I heard it did pretty OK and they made an even better sequel.

 

Regardless - I've still been able to do plenty of "exploring" here and found quite a few lore objects, security chests, and Elites/Champions I have had the joy to discover.

 

BJ

Edited December 10, 2012 by BJWyler