Why are all the planets so linear?

[Fornix]

No you didn't. If you had, you would have hit 50 by Voss at the latest, assuming you only did Heroics once or not at all. One of the constant refrains early on was that there was too much content, that people greatly outleveled content.

 

No I didn't? So you know better than myself at which point I turned 50?

 

If you just played the game, didn't rush through nor farmed rested like crazy in between logouts, you were just 50 by the end of Ilum. Go try and do it so by yourself now, I don't think much changed in terms of exp rewards for the quests. And yes, heroics once, no repeats. Additionally flashpoints could be counted on a single hand and no warzone was played pre-50. Space missions also weren't done pre-50.

 

Over doing it certainly, not doing it at all though? No. In fairness it would be difficult to do on most planets (all but Hoth, Tattoonine and Ilum in fact) due to the corridorred nature, but still it would add to the illusion of openness.

 

And that's exactly it, it'd be an illusion of openness. World design foregoes and you cheapen out as a developer, in the claim of having "open worlds". It's bad practise if you ask me. Other options for exploration should rather be looked at in future MMO's or expansions for SWTOR.

 

I don't think it's really possible to recapture the open mapless discovery of say EQ1, AC or SWG these days, but it is possible to encourage exploration.

 

Cheap open plains, in which you could mindlessly drive. Stuff like that doesn't really hold much exploration value to me. Much rather I'd see MMO's or possible SWTOR in its future aim for creating a vibrant land as well as water world (kudos to GW2 for that aspect, Cataclysm was also nicely done). Additionally the concept of land movement ought to be expanded, including climbing, grappling, whatever to get about. Let us hit into those mountains, let us explore hidden treasures, caves and cultural riches left untouched for centuries.

 

LOTROs managed it reasonable with decent zone design.

 

Rift managed it with ok zone designed and achievements and rewards for doing stuff (they encouraged you to climb that "unclimbable" moutain and you got a reward if you did, they didn't just surround it with invisable walls and exhaustion zones to stop you [for some reason]).

 

Exhaustion zones are nothing truly new though, MMO's have had them for quite some time as barrier in waters or ends of maps without other natural borders. Ultimately, they're just there to prevent you from walking over the edge of the map considering as to how in contrary to popular belief... worlds truly are flat .

 

I think perhaps it was here that Bioware EA showed it's single player game history and it's lack of MMORPG experience.

 

I don't think that's so much the issue to be honest. I personally remain of opinion that there were too many seniors involved in production of this game who were blinded by the idea of them knowing best. Leading to the entire you want to play as the iconic figure, you want to play as the hero crap.

 

And do heroes jump around mountains? Let's face it, you're a darth of the empire or whatever you decide to pick. You go about defeating jedi masters in epic, choreographed battles! You're not a mountain goat jumping through mountains for achievements! Swimming? Not iconic nor heroic, no need for it here!

 

However, people want to be that mountain goat in the mountains. People want to go underwater and have battles there, or encounter those underwater cultures.

 

And the list reaches far beyond that with design choices which aren't so much due to a lack of experience, but some seniors who were part of the dev team which were too pre-ocupied with trying to push their believes on what's not star-warsy enough rather than actually working on those features simply because it's something people like to do in an MMO (regardless of it being Star Wars themed).

[Spiritinblack]

No you didn't. If you had, you would have hit 50 by Voss at the latest, assuming you only did Heroics once or not at all. One of the constant refrains early on was that there was too much content, that people greatly outleveled content.

 

Well you can try to say he/she is a liar, but I know better.

I did all side quests, class quest, and bonus series, AND then had to go back and kill some random mobs for about a half hour to get max level.

 

Now are you going to call me a liar as well. I can name another ( my wife ) she had to do the same.

 

We did not do any Fps after Black Talon. So that might be why.

 

But please don't come on here and say that if someone had done all of it, they would have been 50 by voss.

 

You have NO idea about the playstyle they have. They could have skipped more mobs then you. Ran past more things then you.

 

But of course...... your way must be they only way things happen in games ..... Right.

[Galbatorrix]

Yet all classes have to level through the same planets, where over 66% (I'm generous) of the content is the EXACT SAME QUESTS.

 

Lets see...

 

WOW, two quest zones and two sides. So, a total of 4 different experiences. Two on the Alliance side, two on the Horde side.

 

SWTOR, 8 class stories and 2 sides. So, a total of 8 different experiences. 4 on the Imperial side, 4 on the Republic side.

Edited December 10, 2012 by Galbatorrix

[Goretzu]

And that's exactly it, it'd be an illusion of openness. World design foregoes and you cheapen out as a developer, in the claim of having "open worlds". It's bad practise if you ask me. Other options for exploration should rather be looked at in future MMO's or expansions for SWTOR.

 

Well all game worlds aren't really open, even mahoosive ones like AC or SWG, realistically they'd have to be proceedurally generated like Minecrafts are.

 

But like with staticness there's degrees in design and in pulling the eye away from it.

 

Also the problem with invisible walls and exhaustion zones is that they are all the more jarring when you do run into them, they remind my of walking into a glass door.

 

 

 

Cheap open plains, in which you could mindlessly drive. Stuff like that doesn't really hold much exploration value to me. Much rather I'd see MMO's or possible SWTOR in its future aim for creating a vibrant land as well as water world (kudos to GW2 for that aspect, Cataclysm was also nicely done). Additionally the concept of land movement ought to be expanded, including climbing, grappling, whatever to get about. Let us hit into those mountains, let us explore hidden treasures, caves and cultural riches left untouched for centuries.

 

It's not an either or choice, an open world doesn't have to be a featureless plain (and in fact haven't been in some prior cases), nor do walls always add character to a zone.

 

There's quite a bit of room in-between and in there is a pretty near perfect compromise I think.

 

Again games have come close to this before.

 

 

Although I'd like to see a water world too, I believe it's a limitation of the engine, so we are unlikely to see it.

 

 

 

Exhaustion zones are nothing truly new though, MMO's have had them for quite some time as barrier in waters or ends of maps without other natural borders. Ultimately, they're just there to prevent you from walking over the edge of the map considering as to how in contrary to popular belief... worlds truly are flat .

 

They are a cheap trick, in SWTOR they are pretty jarring too, perhaps the worst one is on Tattooine in the Dune Sea where you can fly to the little base by taxi (which exists for the Agent story), but not cross the 20m of featureless sand that seperates the base from the main zone.

 

There's a few others like this, like the ankle deep lake that kills you 1/2 way across.

 

 

 

 

And do heroes jump around mountains? Let's face it, you're a darth of the empire or whatever you decide to pick. You go about defeating jedi masters in epic, choreographed battles! You're not a mountain goat jumping through mountains for achievements! Swimming? Not iconic nor heroic, no need for it here!

 

However, people want to be that mountain goat in the mountains. People want to go underwater and have battles there, or encounter those underwater cultures.

 

Ah... but again that's the difference between a single player game and an MMORPG, in a single player game it's all about that epic moment (no one in the films lives were made up of heroic moments, they were rare, even in their lives).

 

In an MMORPG it's about existing in a world.

[Vlacke]

It's a known fact on these forums that Master-Nala is a huge supporter of TOR and would defend this game to no end and would take a bullet for BioWare and EA. Master-Nala only sees everything one sided and in positive light.

 

Now theres nothing wrong with the written above but it has grown immensely annoying. We'll never get great things if people like the above support and defend bad decisions. Something to think about.

 

Your point would stand if you had ever written anything positive about this game on these boards, which you haven't.

[Goretzu]

Lets see...

 

WOW, two quest zones and two sides. So, a total of 4 different experiences.

 

SWTOR, 8 class stories and 2 sides. So, a total of 8 different experiences.

 

 

Vanilla WoW had 3 seperate levelling paths, per faction.

 

Class story content makes up at best 10% of your levelling content, which is far, far too litle to really make 90% of the same content feel different - if they'd got class story content up to 40 or 50% it would have been a different game, litterally.

[Galbatorrix]

 

 

Vanilla WoW had 3 seperate levelling paths, per faction.

 

Class story content makes up at best 10% of your levelling content, which is far, far too litle to really make 90% of the same content feel different - if they'd got class story content up to 40 or 50% it would have been a different game, litterally.

 

 

First off, WOW quests suck. The only difference is environment. Otherwise, it's the same kill 10 of these or collect 20 of those. Secondly, has anyone even mentioned bonus series? Bonus series adds even more to SWTOR because you can choose to level through bonus series instead of redoing some planets that you've already seen. For instance, after Voss on my second republic play through, I got a quest near the shuttle asking me to come back to Hoth. I did so and leveled to the point where all I had to do on Corellia was my class quest. Honestly, the only things that is linear and required in SWTOR is the class quest. Everything else is basically optional as long as you do enough to not be too under leveled. If you don't want to do Nar Shaddaa, stay on Taris for the bonus series. If you want to skip both, do some FPs or WZ and move on to Tatooine. Then on Tatooine, you have a bonus series that lets you skip Alderaan, After Alderaan, you can go back to Nar Shaddaa for it's bonus series or move on to Balmorra. Etc, etc.

Edited December 10, 2012 by Galbatorrix

[Goretzu]

First off, WOW quests suck. The only difference is environment. Otherwise, it's the same kill 10 of these or collect 20 of those.

 

Undoubtedly SWTORs voice and animation of quests is a big step forward, however SWTORs quests are still basically kill 10 of these or collect 20 of those, just now with nice voice acting and animation.

 

 

Secondly, has anyone even mentioned bonus series? Bonus series adds even more to SWTOR because you can choose to level through bonus series instead of redoing some planets that you've already seen. For instance, after Voss on my second republic play through, I got a quest near the shuttle asking me to come back to Hoth. I did so and leveled to the point where all I had to do on Corellia was my class quest. Honestly, the only things that is linear and required in SWTOR is the class quest. Everything else is basically optional as long as you do enough to not be too under leveled. If you don't want to do Nar Shaddaa, stay on Taris for the bonus series. If you want to skip both, do some FPs or WZ and move on to Tatooine. Then on Tatooine, you have a bonus series that lets you skip Alderaan, After Alderaan, you can go back to Nar Shaddaa for it's bonus series or move on to Balmorra. Etc, etc.

 

This is including the various bonus series unless you do a LOT of PvP, Space or Heroics and FPs to level.

 

Where as WoW had 3 completely seperate paths you could take or chop and change between.

[ortophonic]

Honestly this just sounds more like a QQ/complaint thread now. YES, zones feel restricted, but as pointed out they feel that way if you are just following the quest path, but even then they still take you to locations with lots to see. I think people mistake this game something completely new, or some sort of skyrim sandbox RPG. WoW is just as restrictive if you think about it, and don't tell me it isn't because it is. It follows the exact same formula and I honestly doubt you "explore" those zones. You grab your quests, run to the general area, finish them, and turn em all back in until you get pushed to the next zone. Edited December 10, 2012 by ortophonic

[Goretzu]

Honestly this just sounds more like a QQ/complaint thread now. YES, zones feel restricted, but as pointed out they feel that way if you are just following the quest path, but even then they still take you to locations with lots to see. I think people mistake this game something completely new, or some sort of skyrim sandbox RPG. WoW is just as restrictive if you think about it, and don't tell me it isn't because it is. It follows the exact same formula and I honestly doubt you "explore" those zones. You grab your quests, run to the general area, finish them, and turn em all back in until you get pushed to the next zone.

 

Certainly in WoW and LOTRO (and EQ and even WAR - which frankly is pretty linear and restricted too) I've on many occasions gone wandering off thinking "Ooo what's down there?", and in all of those I had specific place in zone I use to like to get back to just for the look and/or view. For whatever reason those sorts of things are much more rare in SWTOR.

 

Some planets have it, like Tatooine, to a degree..... but even there without the iconic sunset to go and watch (as you could in SWG).... it feels missing.

[-Me-]

 

 

Although I'd like to see a water world too, I believe it's a limitation of the engine, so we are unlikely to see it. .

 

TheRepopulation will have underwater cities, vehicles and combat and it's using Hero. Well, it's using the current fully developed and supported Hero Engine so it means we can't blame Hero. TORs engine is just Hero by name anyway. Bioware took it when it was more or less just a concept years ago and Hero themselves have had zero to do with TOR other than taking a bad rep just from their logo appearing at the bottom of TORs login screen.

[ortophonic]

But doesn't this lead us into the datacron discussion again? that is the big reason for them anyway, devs want players to explore, and you aren't just going to run into them following the critical path. I think what the player base needs to remember is this is biowares first MMO, it is going to have its flaws but it still has time to grow. If they decide to release a expansion pack (which I honestly can't see why they wouldn't) they could add more exploration to the planets, but another thing to remember is this isn't just some overnight fix.

[Jawa-Punter]

I dont know that I have ever played an MMO that is so linear as SWTOR. You really can't explore much because the planets are actually "hallways" that you cant really divert from. Is this bad gaming design? Or, a product of the HeroEngine?

 

SWTOR feels more like a single player game to me. I mean we shouldn't have expected much more considoring Bioware is not an MMORPG company and never was. I guess we got what we should have expected from this inexperinced group of developers.

I agree that it's bad design for an MMO. Unfortunately, Bioware didn't design this as an MMO. They designed it as KOTOR 3 with multiplayer tacked on.

[Jawa-Punter]

But doesn't this lead us into the datacron discussion again? that is the big reason for them anyway, devs want players to explore, and you aren't just going to run into them following the critical path.

With most of them you aren't going to run into them on ANY path. Most of them past the lowbie planets are literally impossible to find unless you already know where they are. They aren't there to motivate exploration, they're there to motivate strategy guide purchases.

[sstanks]

Undoubtedly SWTORs voice and animation of quests is a big step forward, however SWTORs quests are still basically kill 10 of these or collect 20 of those, just now with nice voice acting and animation.

 

 

 

 

This is including the various bonus series unless you do a LOT of PvP, Space or Heroics and FPs to level.

 

Where as WoW had 3 completely seperate paths you could take or chop and change between.

 

gonna have to disagree with that. Yes there are a fair amount of kill these or collect however there are some really cool and unique quests as well as some cool pay offs for quests ie blowing up large buildings or guns and so fourth.

 

Of course then you got all the Heroic missions which a lot of those are sort of just mini dungeons.

 

Gonna have to go with SWTORs being heads above WoWs leveling. Plus in WoW you always end up converging into one leveling path especially in the expansions.

[Goretzu]

gonna have to disagree with that. Yes there are a fair amount of kill these or collect however there are some really cool and unique quests as well as some cool pay offs for quests ie blowing up large buildings or guns and so fourth.

 

Of course then you got all the Heroic missions which a lot of those are sort of just mini dungeons.

 

Gonna have to go with SWTORs being heads above WoWs leveling. Plus in WoW you always end up converging into one leveling path especially in the expansions.

 

There are some good quests too, but then SWTOR didn't invent them, similar sort of quests go back at least as far as LOTRO.

 

But the basic bread and butter of SWTOR quests is the same as EQ1's orginal kill 10 X or collect 20 Y quests, just with nice voice acting and animation rather than text.

 

 

I like Heroics, but I must say I think they'd be better given how SWTOR plays other wise if you could do them with 3 companions, and also with open groups (and open quest areas) as they had in WAR would make things a lot better.

 

Some of SWTORs story FPs are genuinely innovative, but equally some could have belonged to EQ1 too, and again to get the most out of them I'd consider allowing versions you could do with 3 companions.

Edited December 10, 2012 by Goretzu

[Alohen]

Yeah Unfortunately KOTOR 2 was like a very long corridor with no doors to branch off into anything,

 

SWTOR is more like the same corridor but it has lots of doors that branch off into Supply closets known as "content"

[Master-Nala]

No I didn't? So you know better than myself at which point I turned 50?

 

If you just played the game, didn't rush through nor farmed rested like crazy in between logouts, you were just 50 by the end of Ilum. Go try and do it so by yourself now, I don't think much changed in terms of exp rewards for the quests. And yes, heroics once, no repeats. Additionally flashpoints could be counted on a single hand and no warzone was played pre-50. Space missions also weren't done pre-50.

 

I've done it multiple times. You did not do every quest, bonus, etc. and only hit 50 on Ilum. That is not possible. You skipped quests along the way. You may not know that you did, but you did. Just so we're clear you did every quest you said, that means you did:

 

Origin World - All quests

Capital World - All quests

Taris or Balmorra - All quests and the bonus series

Nar Shaddaa - All quests

Tatooine - All quests and the bonus series

Nar Shadda Bonus Series

Alderaan - All quests

Taris or Balmorra - All quests and the bonus series

Quesh - All quests

Hoth - All quests

Alderaan Bonus series

Belsavis

Voss - All quests and the bonus series

Hoth Bonus Series

Belsavis Bonus Series

Corellia

Ilum

 

You're really stating that you did the above list and only hit 50 on Ilum? Because that is simply not possible. I have never been able to avoid hitting 50 before Corellia and that's with skipping whole planets. You are either lying (which I'm not assuming) or you aren't aware of all the content out there. I certainly believe that its likely that you missed things along the way. There are still folks that don't even know that Nar Shaddaa, Hoth, & Alderaan have bonus series.

Edited December 10, 2012 by Master-Nala

[Master-Nala]

This is exaxtly the problem though.

 

MMORPG world are static (they don't have to be linear though), and most MMORPGs go to great lengths to draw the players eye away from this staticness with a plethora of tricks (most of which have been around since EQ1 in 1999).

SWTOR largely seems to have disguarded these tricks, and unfortunately it shows.

 

What tricks are those?

[Arkerus]

I agree that it's bad design for an MMO. Unfortunately, Bioware didn't design this as an MMO. They designed it as KOTOR 3 with multiplayer tacked on.

 

Even though you aren't even right, there is no hard definition of an MMO. YOu can make the argument that unless the game forces grouping like FFXI, every MMO is just a single player game with multiplayer "tacked" on. This tired old argument needs to die because its simply not true.

 

If PvP, Operations and Flashpoints aren't MMO material then what is? Abandoned player cities? Miles of useless terrain? Cantina dancers? Useless classes just for buffs?

 

Get real.

[Arkerus]

With most of them you aren't going to run into them on ANY path. Most of them past the lowbie planets are literally impossible to find unless you already know where they are. They aren't there to motivate exploration, they're there to motivate strategy guide purchases.

 

Ah. So someone gives reason to explore and you just toss it aside as not a good enough reason. I think you just don't like the game. Begs the question why are you still paying for it?

[Jawa-Punter]

There are still folks that don't even know that Nar Shaddaa, Hoth, & Alderaan have bonus series.

I didn't know that until just now.

 

Ah. So someone gives reason to explore and you just toss it aside as not a good enough reason. I think you just don't like the game. Begs the question why are you still paying for it?

I'm saying that I could explore for 8 hours a day for 5 years and never find most of the datacrons. Even if you cover every single inch of ground you won't find most of them because they aren't visible from the ground and require a lengthy and complicated parkour trip that starts half way across the map from where the actual datacron is. I'm not saying they're not a good morivation for exploring. I'm saying they're not a motivation to explore at all since it's impossible to find them by exploring. The only thing they're a motivation for is Google and/or buying a strategy guide.

Edited December 10, 2012 by Jawa-Punter

[asbalana]

I'm not one to brown nose a developer, but horrible voice acting?! Are you kidding me?! This game has some of the best voice overs I've heard in a game. You clearly have no clue what horrible voice acting is.

 

Agree, the voice acting is top notch.

[Spiritinblack]

I've done it multiple times. You did not do every quest, bonus, etc. and only hit 50 on Ilum. That is not possible. You skipped quests along the way. You may not know that you did, but you did. Just so we're clear you did every quest you said, that means you did:

 

Origin World - All quests

Capital World - All quests

Taris or Balmorra - All quests and the bonus series

Nar Shaddaa - All quests

Tatooine - All quests and the bonus series

Nar Shadda Bonus Series

Alderaan - All quests

Taris or Balmorra - All quests and the bonus series

Quesh - All quests

Hoth - All quests

Alderaan Bonus series

Belsavis

Voss - All quests and the bonus series

Hoth Bonus Series

Belsavis Bonus Series

Corellia

Ilum

 

You're really stating that you did the above list and only hit 50 on Ilum? Because that is simply not possible. I have never been able to avoid hitting 50 before Corellia and that's with skipping whole planets. You are either lying (which I'm not assuming) or you aren't aware of all the content out there. I certainly believe that its likely that you missed things along the way. There are still folks that don't even know that Nar Shaddaa, Hoth, & Alderaan have bonus series.

 

Sigh......

 

Both my wife and I did all the quests, and side quests, and bonus series for all planets. We both had to spend about a half hour fighting random mobs to level to 50.

 

It does not matter if you THINK it is not possible, it is. I know all of the content in the game. Have done it many different times on many different chars.

 

YOUR playstyle may have had you at 50 at certain points, does not mean others had the same experience.

[Master-Nala]

I agree that it's bad design for an MMO. Unfortunately, Bioware didn't design this as an MMO. They designed it as KOTOR 3 with multiplayer tacked on.

 

What is a MMO to your mind?

 

One of the things that people are complaining about in this thread is that the game leads all characters along the same quest path. The reason for that is simple, SO THAT YOU HAVE PEOPLE TO GROUP WITH! The class quests all follow the same path so that you don't have people at the same level scattered across the galaxy. That's what allows you to get groups for Heroics.

 

There are so many really good MMO features in this game that people ignore. The Heroics themselves are great. Quick, easy multiplayer quests that are situated in similar areas to solo quests. This encourages people to group up organically. I can't tell you how many times, I'll be wandering close to a heroic area and get a random invite to do the heroic.

 

Another feature that is largely ignored, but was ingenious is that each planet has a shuttle that will take you to fleet to do the Flashpoint appropriate to that level. That's largely irrelevant given Group Finder these days, but it's still a great social feature.

 

The guild tools could use some work, but in general they make it relatively painless to join a guild and play with them.

 

Even the solo quest hubs are designed so that people can group up. Again, I have done many random groups to do solo quests. An example is in the spoiler.

 

 

One example is the Czerka base that ends off the planetary series on Tatooine. Many times, folks will group up to do the bonus quest there or to PvP because both factions end there and have a shared NPC to kill for the bonus series.

 

 

This is a MMORPG. You don't have to play it as such, but that's your choice. It's not the game.