Kaggath Series: Exar Kun vs Mandalore the Ultimate

[Aurbere]

Another point about the Krath War Droids, is that they are programmed to go after the biggest threats first. So the best fighters will go down first.

 

Also are the Ketos part of Kun's army in this exercise?

 

If so Kun wins hands down.

 

That's one of the reasons the droids were deployed in such large numbers. They basically wipe out an army systematically.

 

As to the Ketos. Maybe. The rules say that prominent allies are excluded, so probably not. Though Kun would win with them.

[MasterMe]

You should also note that the Krath War Droids have a long-ranged pulse type weapon (something like the Predator I think, though I don't think it's as powerful). They also move very fast, covering great distances at speed. Not only that, but they are droids. They can identify the spaces in which the Mando's armor doesn't cover and attack with deadly efficiency. So now we have decapitations and amputations all over the place at incredible speeds.

 

I do think Mandalore's ranged weapons give him an advantage, but that can be quickly overcome by these droids. While the Mando's are busy trying to contend with the droids, the Krath, Massassi and Sith move to engage.

 

The diversity of troops we have here is incredible. I think that is what wins Kun this battle. But I don't think it will be a blow-out. Mandalore will put up a good fight, especially with those Basilisks, but it wont be enough.

 

Yeah, I'm kinda nerding out due to the awesome warriors we have here.

 

But I think that the discipline of the Mando's combined with MtU's leadership is gonna give MtU a slight advantage overall on the battlefield. In a nutshell: Mandos dominate when Kun is at range, once Kun and his men are at close range, they nearly make up for the loses they had whilst being shot at.

 

One thing to consider about Kun's army: Their defense is lacking. When the Mandos attack, they'll be shooting at Kun's men from a distance. So basically, Kun has to keep up a constant attack through a land war. So Kun is gonna learn this lesson early in the war (so it's not gonna be TOO costly for him). With that in mind, his land forces will be on a almost constant attack.

 

Now if I'm MtU, I entrench my men. I've got the Basilisks flying overhead to prevent an attack from air, and the second Kun's army starts coming at me I move the Basilisks to focus on the land forces. A battle involving high casulties for both sides would occur, but Kun's army would suffer this battle a bit more methinks.

 

With that in mind, MtU is set up pretty nicely for land-warfare (assuming he plays his advantagous correctly)

 

BUT let's look how Revan defeated MtU. He countered his agressive tactics. Kun is gonna have tactics that are even more agressive then Revan's. So Kun is looking pretty good in this since. I feel after the war goes on for a while Kun is gonna find how to use his wide variety of tools (tools meaning all his different warriors) to best counter the Mandos. With that in mind, MtU wins most of the early battles. Kun wins later battles IF he uses his wild army effeciantly. Chaos = bad for Kun.

[Ausstig]

That's one of the reasons the droids were deployed in such large numbers. They basically wipe out an army systematically.

 

As to the Ketos. Maybe. The rules say that prominent allies are excluded, so probably not. Though Kun would win with them.

 

So no Fett or demongle (sp?) for Mado U?

 

I would say Kun again, Mado U was a good leader but owed many of his greatest victories to Fett's tactics.

 

Edit: does the ship kun used to create a supernova count as a super-weapon? It destroyed it self so it would only be a one off.

Edited December 1, 2012 by Ausstig

[Aurbere]

Yeah, I'm kinda nerding out due to the awesome warriors we have here.

 

But I think that the discipline of the Mando's combined with MtU's leadership is gonna give MtU a slight advantage overall on the battlefield. In a nutshell: Mandos dominate when Kun is at range, once Kun and his men are at close range, they nearly make up for the loses they had whilst being shot at.

 

One thing to consider about Kun's army: Their defense is lacking. When the Mandos attack, they'll be shooting at Kun's men from a distance. So basically, Kun has to keep up a constant attack through a land war. So Kun is gonna learn this lesson early in the war (so it's not gonna be TOO costly for him). With that in mind, his land forces will be on a almost constant attack.

 

Now if I'm MtU, I entrench my men. I've got the Basilisks flying overhead to prevent an attack from air, and the second Kun's army starts coming at me I move the Basilisks to focus on the land forces. A battle involving high casulties for both sides would occur, but Kun's army would suffer this battle a bit more methinks.

 

With that in mind, MtU is set up pretty nicely for land-warfare (assuming he plays his advantagous correctly)

 

BUT let's look how Revan defeated MtU. He countered his agressive tactics. Kun is gonna have tactics that are even more agressive then Revan's. So Kun is looking pretty good in this since. I feel after the war goes on for a while Kun is gonna find how to use his wide variety of tools (tools meaning all his different warriors) to best counter the Mandos. With that in mind, MtU wins most of the early battles. Kun wins later battles IF he uses his wild army effeciantly. Chaos = bad for Kun.

 

You actually do bring up a good point, but I would like to add to it. While Kun's forces will take some heavy losses, they won't amount to much once the battle closes to melee range. The Krath droids will get in first and start the massacre, giving time for Kun's other warriors to move in. Once Kun and his warriors get in, that's when the bloodbath starts. These guys Kun has are merciless monsters that kill everything. Ruthless, murderous, raving monsters that will kill anything Kun tells them to. Once the battle closes in to melee range, the Mandalorians get slaughtered.

 

This is how Kun wins, but not at the cost of many soldiers. In the end, though, Kun will be the victor. The Mandalorians kill-to-death ratio will not be good. Especially when Exar Kun himself joins the fray, and we all know he's going to be on the front lines.

 

Mandalore loses, but it should be fairly close.

[Aurbere]

So no Fett or demongle (sp?) for Mado U?

 

I would say Kun again, Mado U was a good leader but owed many of his greatest victories to Fett's tactics.

 

Edit: does the ship kun used to create a supernova count as a super-weapon? It destroyed it self so it would only be a one off.

 

I don't know. I know Cassus Fett and Canderous are out. Along with Ulic and Kun's other prominant allies.

 

As for the superweapon. I don't know. It probably wont be allowed.

[MasterMe]

You actually do bring up a good point, but I would like to add to it. While Kun's forces will take some heavy losses, they won't amount to much once the battle closes to melee range. The Krath droids will get in first and start the massacre, giving time for Kun's other warriors to move in. Once Kun and his warriors get in, that's when the bloodbath starts. These guys Kun has are merciless monsters that kill everything. Ruthless, murderous, raving monsters that will kill anything Kun tells them to. Once the battle closes in to melee range, the Mandalorians get slaughtered.

 

This is how Kun wins, but not at the cost of many soldiers. In the end, though, Kun will be the victor. The Mandalorians kill-to-death ratio will not be good. Especially when Exar Kun himself joins the fray, and we all know he's going to be on the front lines.

 

Mandalore loses, but it should be fairly close.

 

Yup. Close fight. Good try MtU!

 

Wait: I just thought of something.

Obviously this war will not be detrmined in a single battle. I believe we've come to the conculsion that MtU wins early battles until Kun adapts. But I'm think that perhaps MtU has a trick up his sleeve? Here it is: land mines. I don't know how common these are in Star Wars, but I've seen some in TCW.

 

Once Kun adapts and begins making up for loses (not only making up for loses but war starts looking bad for MtU) he entrenches as I've said - except he plants land mines in around his army. In a deceptive maneuver he pulls Kun's hordes into this bloodbath.

 

IF that were to happen it would make this battle closer yet. I think a Kun victory is still likely though...

[Aurbere]

Yup. Close fight. Good try MtU!

 

Wait: I just thought of something.

Obviously this war will not be detrmined in a single battle. I believe we've come to the conculsion that MtU wins early battles until Kun adapts. But I'm think that perhaps MtU has a trick up his sleeve? Here it is: land mines. I don't know how common these are in Star Wars, but I've seen some in TCW.

 

Once Kun adapts and begins making up for loses (not only making up for loses but war starts looking bad for MtU) he entrenches as I've said - except he plants land mines in around his army. In a deceptive maneuver he pulls Kun's hordes into this bloodbath.

 

IF that were to happen it would make this battle closer yet. I think a Kun victory is still likely though...

 

Does Mandalore use land mines?

 

But even if they did, such a thing could backfire on the Mando's. First, he needs time to get the mines set. Which means he has to be on the ground first. Second, he needs to make sure the mines are far enough away so that the explosion doesn't catch any of his men in the blast, or have his men get nailed by shrapnel from the Krath Droids.

 

Not only that, but I think Kun and his Sith could sense the mines.

[Warren-Stride]

Honestly, I'm just glad neither of them have stealth technology.

[Aurbere]

Honestly, I'm just glad neither of them have stealth technology.

 

Stealth sure does give an advantage. That's for sure.

[Beniboybling]

OK, after researching beskar it seems that all Mandalorian Neo-Crusaders wore it. No we can't rule it out completely just because it seems inconsistent.

 

Personally I've never seen a Mando get chopped in half, or dismembered etc. by a Jedi before so I'm going to make it K-Canon that is provides resistance not immunity to lightsabers and vibroblades. So if a dark jedi or war droid attacked a Mando with his blade it wouldn't cut through his armour. But he would feel the force which is damage enough to kill him with successive strikes. Basically there armour is tougher than your average trooper. And gives them decent advantage armor wise in melee combat.

 

Keto's are not allowed.

 

And what about Basilisk War droids? These things often fight from the air so I don't see how Kun's army could effectively counter them. Of course from the ground a war droid could just kill its rider... but still has to take down the droid.

[Rayla_Felana]

Of course from the ground a war droid could just kill its rider... but still has to take down the droid.

 

Actually when Revan killed the pilot of a basilisk, it curled over and basically died.

 

In my opinion, the Sith Empire wins this, their hordes are just to vast and powerful, they also have no reason to stop, they can spread from world to world and wreck everything the Mandalorians have, there were around half a million Massassi on Yavin IV, the Krath also had a population of billions upon billions, mix in Sith War Beasts that Kun can simply keep creating through his alchemy and then the War Droids as well, you have an extremely varied army with no actual weaknesses.

 

In an army that doesn't care about casualties, you are not going to stop your conquest for anything, I don't like to make these comparisons, but it will be like the Red Army overrunning the Wehrmarcht, but the Red Army doesn't just have humans...

Edited December 1, 2012 by Rayla_Felana

[Beniboybling]

Actually when Revan killed the pilot of a basilisk, it curled over and basically died.

That is true, they still have the aerial advantage though.

 

In my opinion, the Sith Empire wins this, their hordes are just to vast and powerful, they also have no reason to stop, they can spread from world to world and wreck everything the Mandalorians have, there were around half a million Massassi on Yavin IV, the Krath also had a population of billions upon billions, mix in Sith War Beasts that Kun can simply keep creating through his alchemy and then the War Droids as well, you have an extremely varied army with no actual weaknesses.

 

In an army that doesn't care about casualties, you are not going to stop your conquest for anything, I don't like to make these comparisons, but it will be like the Red Army overrunning the Wehrmarcht, but the Red Army doesn't just have humans...

I think a numbers comparison is needed. IMO the Mandalorians outnumber the Massassi and Krath.

[BrandonSM]

This is one of those fights where no matter how skilled Mandalore's men are, Kun's army just outnumbers them by billions..

 

The reason I say he outnumbers by billions, is because Kun could practically control every animal and make them do his bidding plus his infinite army of Sith Beasts that he could keep creating with no problems.

Edited December 1, 2012 by BrandonSM

[Warren-Stride]

OK, after researching beskar it seems that all Mandalorian Neo-Crusaders wore it. No we can't rule it out completely just because it seems inconsistent.

 

Personally I've never seen a Mando get chopped in half, or dismembered etc. by a Jedi before so I'm going to make it K-Canon that is provides resistance not immunity to lightsabers and vibroblades. So if a dark jedi or war droid attacked a Mando with his blade it wouldn't cut through his armour. But he would feel the force which is damage enough to kill him with successive strikes. Basically there armour is tougher than your average trooper. And gives them decent advantage armor wise in melee combat.

 

Cool. Advantage for Mandalore.

 

We have all agreed that Kun's army in mainly close-range combat (war droids aside). If a LIGHTSABER can't cut through this armor in one strike, it's gonna take a looooong time for other melee weapons to break through.

 

Of course, this armor does not prevent Mandos from being overrun and utterly swarmed, but it'll give them a fighting chance against most anything Kun can throw at them.

 

So Mandalorians now have all the defensive advantages: Long-range, air control, and foot-soldier armor.

 

 

EDIT: Quality over Quantity anyone? XD

Edited December 1, 2012 by Warren-Stride

[MasterMe]

Actually when Revan killed the pilot of a basilisk, it curled over and basically died.

 

In my opinion, the Sith Empire wins this, their hordes are just to vast and powerful, they also have no reason to stop, they can spread from world to world and wreck everything the Mandalorians have, there were around half a million Massassi on Yavin IV, the Krath also had a population of billions upon billions, mix in Sith War Beasts that Kun can simply keep creating through his alchemy and then the War Droids as well, you have an extremely varied army with no actual weaknesses.

 

In an army that doesn't care about casualties, you are not going to stop your conquest for anything, I don't like to make these comparisons, but it will be like the Red Army overrunning the Wehrmarcht, but the Red Army doesn't just have humans...

 

I wouldn't go as far as to say they have "no actual weakness."

[Rayla_Felana]

: Quality over Quantity anyone? XD

 

Didn't win the Germans the Eastern Front did it?

[Rayla_Felana]

Size of the Kun Sith Empire's space: http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Great_Sith_War?file=GreatSithWar.jpg

 

In comparison, the Mandalorian's space: http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Mandalorian_Wars?file=MandWars_Map.jpg

 

Yeh... I'll wager they have more resources, men and ships with a conquest that large, as well as a hell of a lot of room to strike anywhere along the Mandalorian border...

[Warren-Stride]

Kun's Army (Disadvantages)

 

Massassi

-After Kun mutated them, they are no longer warriors, but hulking beasts

-Slow, large targets

-Not smart, savage

 

Krath

-No evidence for how many numbers they have

-Prone to infighting, would tear each other apart from the inside

-No particular advantage as ground troops (other than Sith Magic....?)

-Commander, the one who held them together, (Ulic Qel-Droma) is non-existant.

 

Krath War Droids

-Long range "Pulse-wave firing assembly" has no known use and/or what it actually does (from pulse wave we can assume it doesn't actually kill people, just knocks them back)

-Programmed ONLY to seek and destroy most powerful (they're stupid) so when that's done they're done. Would not attack Mandalorians, most likely only their War Droids, who are flying.....

 

Sith

-Can't cut through Mandalorian armor (with ease)

-Have been proven to be beaten by Mandalorians in the past (Jedi as well)

 

Foot Soldiers

-Made up the majority of Kun's army (think Imperial military troops)

-Did not have armor anywhere near as good as Mandalorians

 

 

Overall, Kun's army has many glaring weaknesses, and it seems to be so chaotic and splintered that organization would be almost impossible. Any unit of his army could be killed by Beskar-wearing Mandos.

[Warren-Stride]

Didn't win the Germans the Eastern Front did it?

 

It won Malgus over Grievous.

 

This is the Star Wars Universe, not the real world. Comparisons in between the two don't really aid the debate.

[Rayla_Felana]

Kun's Army (Disadvantages)

 

Massassi

-After Kun mutated them, they are no longer warriors, but hulking beasts

-Slow, large targets

-Not smart, savage

 

Krath

-No evidence for how many numbers they have

-Prone to infighting, would tear each other apart from the inside

-No particular advantage as ground troops (other than Sith Magic....?)

-Commander, the one who held them together, (Ulic Qel-Droma) is non-existant.

 

Krath War Droids

-Long range "Pulse-wave firing assembly" has no known use and/or what it actually does (from pulse wave we can assume it doesn't actually kill people, just knocks them back)

-Programmed ONLY to seek and destroy most powerful (they're stupid) so when that's done they're done. Would not attack Mandalorians, most likely only their War Droids, who are flying.....

 

Sith

-Can't cut through Mandalorian armor (with ease)

-Have been proven to be beaten by Mandalorians in the past (Jedi as well)

 

Foot Soldiers

-Made up the majority of Kun's army (think Imperial military troops)

-Did not have armor anywhere near as good as Mandalorians

 

 

Overall, Kun's army has many glaring weaknesses, and it seems to be so chaotic and splintered that organization would be almost impossible. Any unit of his army could be killed by Beskar-wearing Mandos.

 

Advantage: Led by a Dark Lord of the Sith that earned all of their loyalties, all he has to do is point at a system and they'll wreck it, he also has a far larger manpool than the mandalorians do due to the size of his Empire in comparison to Mandalore's.

 

He can keep creating Sith War Beasts, the Krath can keep churning out legions, he can keep recruiting men from conquered worlds, he also doesn't have to worry about suffering heavy losses, Mandalore does not have such a privilege.

 

MtU is outnumbered, again, but this time his opponents are much tougher and far more aggressive.

 

Mandalore also doesn't have Cassus Fett, who led many of his victories and close defeats against the Jedi.

Edited December 1, 2012 by Rayla_Felana

[Rayla_Felana]

It won Malgus over Grievous.

 

This is the Star Wars Universe, not the real world. Comparisons in between the two don't really aid the debate.

 

The analogy is still relevant and Mandalore doesn't have a legion of Sith and a stealthed fleet with a stealthed battle station.

 

What Exar Kun does have is this immense beauty:

 

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/CX-133_Chaos_fighter

Edited December 1, 2012 by Rayla_Felana

[Beniboybling]

He can keep creating Sith War Beasts, the Krath can keep churning out legions, he can keep recruiting men from conquered worlds, he also doesn't have to worry about suffering heavy losses, Mandalore does not have such a privilege.

Could he? The Krath seem like an elite cultist organisation who don't accept any Tom, Dick and Harry into there ranks. And the Massassi Warriors speak for themselves. I doubt many would be eager to join the ranks of ancient pureblood savages, twisted dark side spawn and fanatical cultists. Nor can I see anyone wanting to join the Sith to fight Mandalorians. And one does not simply 'churn out legions'

 

The Mandalorians however specialize in recruitment. The whole purpose of the Neo-Crusaders was the encourage people from conquered worlds etc to join there ranks. So the Mandalorian Army would swell also.

 

Judging from those maps however, while its doesn't outline territory, the Kun conquest was far larger implying he had a wealth of troops - enough to overwhelm the Mandalorians. We also have to consider morale. Many people would be eager to join up arms against the Republic, especially in the Outer Rim where disdain was strongest. But against Exar Kun's Empire? There fearsome forces would probably put people off joining the Mandalorians as much as it would put them off joining Exar Kun.

 

And concerning Krath War Droids, consult this image. They had these kinda bow things which fired pulse waves. I assume they had a fatal effect. I could see these ranged weapons as a counter to the basilisk war droids effectively enough, which there programming would direct them to attack. But in terms of firepower the Basiliks have a clear advantage and while they draw the war droids fire the Mandalorians could gun them down.

 

Again, these armies seem evenly matched. But what of orbital bombardment? If the Mandalorians could get a space advantage, they could bombard Kun's armies from above. Much like they did at Serroco, but minus the nuclear weapons (isn't it interesting that even in Star Wars nuclear weapons are still devastatingly powerful?)

[Rayla_Felana]

Could he? The Krath seem like an elite cultist organisation who don't accept any Tom, Dick and Harry into there ranks. And the Massassi Warriors speak for themselves. I doubt many would be eager to join the ranks of ancient pureblood savages, twisted dark side spawn and fanatical cultists. Nor can I see anyone wanting to join the Sith to fight Mandalorians. And one does not simply 'churn out legions'

 

It's called join us or die, typical Sith tactic. oh and the Krath legions were quite vast and hit many worlds across the inner rim at once, they also had it as basically a requirement like the British once did to have conscription into the regular military, also the Massassi won't replenish, but those Sith War beasts can simply be created over and over, I'd like to see how the mandalorians handle a couple a dozen Terentateks smashing into their ranks.

 

One thing to consider in space is that those Chaos Fighters can turn the tide of a battle in minutes, the Republic got butchered by these things over and over in numerous engagements across space.

 

Then we have the fact that those new Sith Acolytes are getting more and more powerful, they are going to get immensely strong after a few battles, they'll be effective leaders to the point where individual hordes can strike at multiple worlds without a care in the world but carnage.

[MasterMe]

I believe the forces are very evenly matched. So in the end, I think the big factor is gonna be

LEADERSHIP

I mean this in a general since. Who's gonna make the most of their men? I think MtU (being Mando) is gonna start with some early victories due to his disciplined and organization of the Mandos. So it all comes down (imo) to how well Kun can adapt and use his hybrid war machine to it's fullest.

 

I have decided however that MtU will lose. There is no way about it. Originally I was looking to Revan's army to draw a comparison between the two. I was thinking: "If Kun can beat Revan, then he can certainly beat MtU." But now I see that biggest difference between the two is this: Revan has Jedi, while Kun has Darksiders.

 

Y'all are thinking "DUH! That's obvious!" But remember, Sith can feed of the emotions of their opponents. And Mandos, being very driven and zealous, are gonna be feeding the rage of the Sith. Whereas the Mandos weren't feeding Revan's army at all.

 

So yeah.. I'm afraid Mandos just aren't a good counter for Sith. The best counter for a Sith is obviously a Jedi, because they don't have emotion and accordingly won't feed the Sith's rage. Don't get me wrong though; MtU won't go down without a fight!

[Beniboybling]

But now I see that biggest difference between the two is this: Revan has Jedi, while Kun has Darksiders.

 

Y'all are thinking "DUH! That's obvious!" But remember, Sith can feed of the emotions of their opponents. And Mandos, being very driven and zealous, are gonna be feeding the rage of the Sith. Whereas the Mandos weren't feeding Revan's army at all.

May I point out however, that Kun only has around 20 Sith - whereas the Revanchists numbered in the hundreds. So I doubt we are going to see hundreds of Sith lords carving Mando's to pieces. Rather a handful of dark Jedi leading select forces into battle.