Random idea on class balance.

[CharterMonkKent]

I put this in a thread I started, that was hijacked, can you believe that could happen on these forums?? It's a dumming down of the game, no question there. But I'd be willing to put up with that dumming down to stop all the complaining and the endless nerf/buff cycle.

 

Direct DPS/heals in pvp could be capped in PvP. It's too difficult to balance classes, ACs and trees one at a time.

 

If this could done in an intelligent way many of the DPS complaints would cease. There are two ways that I can see damage/heals being capped. Both clearly have their issues. There is no magic bullet in a game where skill and time mean so much to the toons on screen.

 

1. Flat cap. For sake of discussion I'll say 6k max damage for any attack or heal.

 

2. % cap. Attacks / heals effect players based on a % of their stats. This would be similar to how damage/heals are calculated now. Taking into count quantifying stats of the toon (gear, skills, buffs, debuffs, etc), would balance out the attack. HP is the obvious base choice for this % cap.

[wwkingms]

im sorry but BW fails is some of the most BASIC concepts of balance

 

the squishiest class (sorc/sage), should do the most dmg... not the case

 

the harder classes to kill (mara, tank sins, pts) should do the least amount of dmg , which is DEFINITELY not the case.. pt's and mara's having the best burst dmg in the game (with snipers)

 

 

so when a mara is rollin around curb stomping kids with only 10% hp remaining and still wont die.. somethings up

[UGLYMRJ]

I put this in a thread I started, that was hijacked, can you believe that could happen on these forums?? It's a dumming down of the game, no question there. But I'd be willing to put up with that dumming down to stop all the complaining and the endless nerf/buff cycle.

 

Direct DPS/heals in pvp could be capped in PvP. It's too difficult to balance classes, ACs and trees one at a time.

 

If this could done in an intelligent way many of the DPS complaints would cease. There are two ways that I can see damage/heals being capped. Both clearly have their issues. There is no magic bullet in a game where skill and time mean so much to the toons on screen.

 

1. Flat cap. For sake of discussion I'll say 6k max damage for any attack or heal.

 

2. % cap. Attacks / heals effect players based on a % of their stats. This would be similar to how damage/heals are calculated now. Taking into count quantifying stats of the toon (gear, skills, buffs, debuffs, etc), would balance out the attack. HP is the obvious base choice for this % cap.

 

Personally... I don't like it. But you already know I don't like a dumbing down and that I love the gear grind.

 

I love the reward for time invested system (gear grind) and not only does a system like that reward min/max players less but it also punishes guys coming into WZ's in Tionese less.

[CharterMonkKent]

Personally... I don't like it. But you already know I don't like a dumbing down and that I love the gear grind.

 

I love the reward for time invested system (gear grind) and not only does a system like that reward min/max players less but it also punishes guys coming into WZ's in Tionese less.

 

I know. I know. There is no fix. Smash will be nerfed, it will ruin the class for PvE and it will still be fine in PvP.

 

I'll keep with my current plan. Have every AC at 50 (and in WH) so I can have fun playing all classes. My shadow will be ready for 50 when 1.6 hits. All that's left after that is mara/sent.

[fungihoujo]

Personally... I don't like it. But you already know I don't like a dumbing down and that I love the gear grind.

 

I love the reward for time invested system (gear grind) and not only does a system like that reward min/max players less but it also punishes guys coming into WZ's in Tionese less.

 

Actually, it's extremely punishing even just to people in recruit gear- my PT is in recruit and my rail shot crits for half as much as I've seen other PTs critting for- an optimized WH aug is able to be doing twice the damage, while having 50% more health on top of that and other bonuses like more crits and better mitigation.

 

Simply put- the difference between min/max and new players is extraordinarily massive- if you don't believe me, equip a full set of recruit and see for yourself.

 

If anything the current system is most rewarding to min/maxers who have the extensive amount of time needed to get multiple pieces of top end sets to mix and match mods. If anything, that makes this game even worse than WoW because at least for WoW you could just get the top set and be done with it- this game is a mess of mod switching, to the point where I'm surprised they aren't just selling the mods for commendations and skipping the gear altogether- might as well.

[CharterMonkKent]

Actually, it's extremely punishing even just to people in recruit gear- my PT is in recruit and my rail shot crits for half as much as I've seen other PTs critting for- an optimized WH aug is able to be doing twice the damage, while having 50% more health on top of that and other bonuses like more crits and better mitigation.

 

Simply put- the difference between min/max and new players is extraordinarily massive- if you don't believe me, equip a full set of recruit and see for yourself.

 

If anything the current system is most rewarding to min/maxers who have the extensive amount of time needed to get multiple pieces of top end sets to mix and match mods. If anything, that makes this game even worse than WoW because at least for WoW you could just get the top set and be done with it- this game is a mess of mod switching, to the point where I'm surprised they aren't just selling the mods for commendations and skipping the gear altogether- might as well.

 

I get your point but let's not embellish, it distracts the discussion. There are plenty of people on these forums that will believe anything they read My fully geared PT has under 21k health. Fresh 50 PTs get near 16k health, that's not 50%.

[UGLYMRJ]

Actually, it's extremely punishing even just to people in recruit gear- my PT is in recruit and my rail shot crits for half as much as I've seen other PTs critting for- an optimized WH aug is able to be doing twice the damage, while having 50% more health on top of that and other bonuses like more crits and better mitigation.

 

Simply put- the difference between min/max and new players is extraordinarily massive- if you don't believe me, equip a full set of recruit and see for yourself.

 

If anything the current system is most rewarding to min/maxers who have the extensive amount of time needed to get multiple pieces of top end sets to mix and match mods. If anything, that makes this game even worse than WoW because at least for WoW you could just get the top set and be done with it- this game is a mess of mod switching, to the point where I'm surprised they aren't just selling the mods for commendations and skipping the gear altogether- might as well.

 

I know... maybe you misunderstood me but I like that punishing system... even as a fresh 50.

 

And like Charter said... I think you're exagerrating quite a bit. My marauder for example... as a fresh 50 I was at just under 16K HP or so (Not full recruit of course but no 50 should ever be in FULL recruit), In full WH gear I was just under 21K HP, 20.6 I believe. That's a difference of just over 20% and now that I'm near min/max I'm at 19K HP... I think my current HP is 19006. Which is a difference of less than 20%.

 

I'm not saying I don't see your point... but I already acknowledged that and made it clear that I like the current system so I'm simply not sure what you're saying or trying to get across. And again... exaggerating numbers will definitely hurt your validity. Many are less likely to read further.

[fungihoujo]

I get your point but let's not embellish, it distracts the discussion. There are plenty of people on these forums that will believe anything they read My fully geared PT has under 21k health. Fresh 50 PTs get near 16k health, that's not 50%.

 

Below 15k. For it to be half it'd be around 7.5k- or 22.5k so yes, I was off by a bit, it'd be between 40 and 45% not 50. Even if we were to go with 16k vs 21k though- we're looking at about a 30% bonus. Then- add in damage, crit, surge, mitigation, etc.... and we're looking at a significant difference- most players in WZ in recruit are around 14k before buffs.

 

Just played a match- half my team had under 15k health in recruit gear- saw a jugg with 23k (went up to like, 27k for some kinda defensive buff at one point) so ultimately- yeah, there are WH aug players with 50% more health- so, not an exaggeration.

Edited November 28, 2012 by fungihoujo

[CharterMonkKent]

Below 15k. For it to be half it'd be around 7.5k- or 22.5k so yes, I was off by a bit, it'd be between 40 and 45% not 50. Even if we were to go with 16k vs 21k though- we're looking at about a 30% bonus. Then- add in damage, crit, surge, mitigation, etc.... and we're looking at a significant difference- most players in WZ in recruit are around 14k before buffs.

 

it's 25-30% less. and i agree with you. 1.6 should help us all get closer to equal gear.

 

Now if people don't augment or refuse to get their datacrons... well then they deserve to get destroyed in pvp. I know people who tell me they have the best gear and get destroyed. Sure they have the best stock gear, but... They neither get datacrons nor the augments. Which are basically 2 extra pieces of gear.

[fungihoujo]

it's 25-30% less. and i agree with you. 1.6 should help us all get closer to equal gear.

 

Now if people don't augment or refuse to get their datacrons... well then they deserve to get destroyed in pvp. I know people who tell me they have the best gear and get destroyed. Sure they have the best stock gear, but... They neither get datacrons nor the augments. Which are basically 2 extra pieces of gear.

 

You're looking at 14 aug kits and 14 augs- both sit at around 70k per on my server. 28 x 70k is around 2 million credits... that's alot to spend on recruit gear- most people won't have that... frankly if you are pvp focused you definitely won't have it since pvp gives paltry credit rewards.

 

Datacrons... well, they make some difference, though you're looking at dozens of hours to get them (there are some that took me two or more hours to get by themselves... and the Fleet one requires a large group and a lot of patience).

 

My PT has 14795 health, in full recruit with 4 pieces of BM, buffed- I'm looking at her right now so that's definitive.

[CharterMonkKent]

You're looking at 14 aug kits and 14 augs- both sit at around 70k per on my server. 28 x 70k is around 2 million credits... that's alot to spend on recruit gear- most people won't have that... frankly if you are pvp focused you definitely won't have it since pvp gives paltry credit rewards.

 

Datacrons... well, they make some difference, though you're looking at dozens of hours to get them (there are some that took me two or more hours to get by themselves... and the Fleet one requires a large group and a lot of patience).

 

My PT has 14795 health, in full recruit with 4 pieces of BM, buffed- I'm looking at her right now so that's definitive.

 

Then I'm at a loss. Did you hit 50 before 1.4 and not play much since? If so, then you are arguing for an extremely small % of the pvpers in this game. Not getting to full BM w/a few WH in 3 months is no ones fault, not yours, not the games and not players in WH gear. Perhaps you don't have the time to play the game. There is plenty of room for casual players in this game, but the super casual will always have a tough time.

 

And you should be doing your dailies between WZs. If you do them all, even excluding the heroics, you can get 500k... a day. Doing the black hole dailies take about 20min and you get near 100k for those. Some of the mobs there drop 1000 creds when you kill them. I'm pvp focused and I roll around a few mil in the bank just from doing dailies from time to time.

 

Or you could do it the lazy-ish way. Buy cartel packs and sell what you get for creds

[Xerain]

I love these threads that are based on class balance of scrubs in regs.

[UGLYMRJ]

I love these threads that are based on class balance of scrubs in regs.

 

Class balance is based on sub 50 pvp and 1v1 duels.

 

Didn't you get the memo?

[fungihoujo]

Then I'm at a loss. Did you hit 50 before 1.4 and not play much since? If so, then you are arguing for an extremely small % of the pvpers in this game. Not getting to full BM w/a few WH in 3 months is no ones fault, not yours, not the games and not players in WH gear. Perhaps you don't have the time to play the game. There is plenty of room for casual players in this game, but the super casual will always have a tough time.

 

And you should be doing your dailies between WZs. If you do them all, even excluding the heroics, you can get 500k... a day. Doing the black hole dailies take about 20min and you get near 100k for those. Some of the mobs there drop 1000 creds when you kill them. I'm pvp focused and I roll around a few mil in the bank just from doing dailies from time to time.

 

Or you could do it the lazy-ish way. Buy cartel packs and sell what you get for creds

 

I just played two games in a row where half the players were under 15k health in each of them- how does that equate to a minority of players?

 

I think you overestimate how much money people have- if you only have an hour or two to play a day, chances are you'll want to spend that pvping- not doing dailies (20 minutes? Maybe if you know how to rush it and have the gear, average person's going to spend a lot more time than that).

 

Should be noted- f2p brought a lot of players back who had quit months ago, which shouldn't come as a surprise to people. They came back to even bigger gear gaps than before.

 

If you must know though- BM gear is around 12-13k comms- you get 100 comms a game if you do well (I've seen as low as 40 for being rolled, and high as 140). I generally wait 15 minutes for a match to pop, so I'll get 2 games an hour. You're looking at about 120 matchs, or 60 hours to get full BM. Doesn't sound bad if you play 10 hours a day- that's just one week to do it, little less cuz dailies give 100 bonus and weekly 300 bonus comms. If you play 1 hour a day though, that's 10 weeks, even if you play 2 hours a day every day you're looking at over a month to get BM.

 

14 hours a week might seem a paltry amount- but that's more than the average player plays- and doesn't take into account that most players like a variety of things, or of course the hour of dailies they have to do too.

 

I get where the idea that if you put in more time you should get a big advantage over people who play the game sparsely- but ultimately if you have a skill advantage because you know the game better- why do you need even more advantage? This idea that you must devote yourself to the pvp gamestyle to be on equal terms is hurting the game because people do not want to devote themselves to something to have fun at it- especially in a game like this that has so much to it.

 

Gear advantages should be sparse at all times- like they were between champ and BM gear. Recruit to BM to WH are just large differences- though thankfully EWH is looking so much more reasonable, so perhaps they actually listened to us about gear balancing.

[fungihoujo]

I love these threads that are based on class balance of scrubs in regs.

 

I love these threads that are always about marauders saying everything is fine and anyone who disagrees is a scrub. I see you never fail to deliver- always there to say talking balance means you're a bad.

[fungihoujo]

Class balance is based on sub 50 pvp and 1v1 duels.

 

Didn't you get the memo?

 

The balance is actually reasonable to a point pre 50- more so than level 50. If you're talking WH- you have teams from all servers admitting they're using very close to the same make ups. Look at RWZ, the balance is not a lick better there.

[UGLYMRJ]

The balance is actually reasonable to a point pre 50- more so than level 50. If you're talking WH- you have teams from all servers admitting they're using very close to the same make ups. Look at RWZ, the balance is not a lick better there.

 

That's it... I'm done...

 

There's one of these guys in every damn thread that make as much sense as this guy

Edited November 28, 2012 by UGLYMRJ

[fungihoujo]

That's it... I'm done... I can't handle this ****.

 

I'm gonna punch a baby in the face if I have to read any more of this nonsense...

 

 

There's one of these quacks in every damn thread that make as much sense as this guy

 

Typical marauder behaviour when your class starts to look bad in any conversation.

 

Look at RWZ teams, look at their compositions- there's a reason they're that way. As another marauder said 'we are all stacking these classes for a reason, we want to win'. If we saw RWZ become x-server as it should be- it'd only get worse as it got competitive.

[UGLYMRJ]

Typical marauder behaviour when your class starts to look bad in any conversation.

 

Look at RWZ teams, look at their compositions- there's a reason they're that way. As another marauder said 'we are all stacking these classes for a reason, we want to win'. If we saw RWZ become x-server as it should be- it'd only get worse as it got competitive.

 

This is why I ignore you half the time...

 

We weren't even talking about marauders... what are even talking about?

 

This is a thread about class balance and I only used marauder changes as an example because it's a comparison I'm familiar with. The idea is about balancing ALL classes.... stop trying to make every thread a nerf marauder thread simply because you STILL don't know how to counter them.

[Jadescythe]

The idea has merit. Essentially most abilities in the trees would remain the same, but may offer something slightly different in one than the other. It could be as simple as Anni/watchman having a higher heal % in one than the other. In others it may be totally different. Say Arsenal gets an ability to make TM instant with CD, but doesn't get the talent for the armor debuff in the PVP tree (no idea if this would be balanced, I'm just throwing out random stuff for comparison).

 

I would certainly make them completely separate trees since you never know which talents will be changed in the future. I would also say that the PVE spec would be used everywhere outside of warzones, PVP specific areas (Outlaw's Den, potentially Ilum in the future), and duels. I would not allow the use of PVP specific trees in the open world because options that may work in a PVP environment may be overtuned in PVE (I know it's typically the nerfs that affect PVE, but buffs could do this as well). If they were to buff TM damage for Mercs to make the cost of not interrupting it higher (once again, totally random idea), that would unnecessarily buff them significantly more in PVE where they are not being interrupted at all.

 

Just my thoughts.

[UGLYMRJ]

The idea has merit. Essentially most abilities in the trees would remain the same, but may offer something slightly different in one than the other. It could be as simple as Anni/watchman having a higher heal % in one than the other. In others it may be totally different. Say Arsenal gets an ability to make TM instant with CD, but doesn't get the talent for the armor debuff in the PVP tree (no idea if this would be balanced, I'm just throwing out random stuff for comparison).

 

I would certainly make them completely separate trees since you never know which talents will be changed in the future. I would also say that the PVE spec would be used everywhere outside of warzones, PVP specific areas (Outlaw's Den, potentially Ilum in the future), and duels. I would not allow the use of PVP specific trees in the open world because options that may work in a PVP environment may be overtuned in PVE (I know it's typically the nerfs that affect PVE, but buffs could do this as well). If they were to buff TM damage for Mercs to make the cost of not interrupting it higher (once again, totally random idea), that would unnecessarily buff them significantly more in PVE where they are not being interrupted at all.

 

Just my thoughts.

 

I thank you sir... for bringing this back on topic.

 

And I like the idea about the open world. It makes sense as far as any open world environment vs PvP environment like the Den. Probably the most logical solution to that problem. All in all... I think it would be a definite improvement and even make the dev's jobs easier as far as creating balance.

Edited November 28, 2012 by UGLYMRJ

[CharterMonkKent]

I just played two games in a row where half the players were under 15k health in each of them- how does that equate to a minority of players?

 

I think you overestimate how much money people have- if you only have an hour or two to play a day, chances are you'll want to spend that pvping- not doing dailies (20 minutes? Maybe if you know how to rush it and have the gear, average person's going to spend a lot more time than that).

 

Should be noted- f2p brought a lot of players back who had quit months ago, which shouldn't come as a surprise to people. They came back to even bigger gear gaps than before.

 

If you must know though- BM gear is around 12-13k comms- you get 100 comms a game if you do well (I've seen as low as 40 for being rolled, and high as 140). I generally wait 15 minutes for a match to pop, so I'll get 2 games an hour. You're looking at about 120 matchs, or 60 hours to get full BM. Doesn't sound bad if you play 10 hours a day- that's just one week to do it, little less cuz dailies give 100 bonus and weekly 300 bonus comms. If you play 1 hour a day though, that's 10 weeks, even if you play 2 hours a day every day you're looking at over a month to get BM.

 

14 hours a week might seem a paltry amount- but that's more than the average player plays- and doesn't take into account that most players like a variety of things, or of course the hour of dailies they have to do too.

 

I get where the idea that if you put in more time you should get a big advantage over people who play the game sparsely- but ultimately if you have a skill advantage because you know the game better- why do you need even more advantage? This idea that you must devote yourself to the pvp gamestyle to be on equal terms is hurting the game because people do not want to devote themselves to something to have fun at it- especially in a game like this that has so much to it.

 

Gear advantages should be sparse at all times- like they were between champ and BM gear. Recruit to BM to WH are just large differences- though thankfully EWH is looking so much more reasonable, so perhaps they actually listened to us about gear balancing.

 

I'm done trying to reason with your whining. You make this game sound difficult and give ambigious examples of things that you think no one can argue. I mean seasiously. You just compared two war zones to the millions of players who are in this game.

 

I'd wish you good luck, but you'd probably make some comment about how luck doesn't scale well to new 50s.

Edited November 28, 2012 by CharterMonkKent

[Jadescythe]

I thank you sir... for bringing this back on topic.

 

And I like the idea about the open world. It makes sense as far as any open world environment vs PvP environment like the Den. Probably the most logical solution to that problem. All in all... I think it would be a definite improvement and even make the dev's jobs easier as far as creating balance.

 

Agreed. Keep the basic philosophy of the spec intact with minor tweaks to fit the environment the player is competing in. I don't need them spending 6 years developing all new classes

[Smashbrother]

Over and over we see changes made for PvE that drastically affect PvP. Annihilation and rage being some of the most recent.

 

Before I get to my idea... let's look at the problem.

 

Class balance. It's impossible to perfect. No MMO has done it so well that everyone could agree that it's balanced. It's a matter of perspective, one person will see the same thing in a very different way than the next person. I don't think that anyone could say that any traditional MMO has ever been perfectly balanced... it just hasn't happened and likely won't happen. I think this is something that we can all agree on.

 

Since the myth of perfect balance is out of the way... let's look at it realistically. Let's look at ideas to simply make it better... not perfect.

 

Going back to what I originally mentioned about PvE changes affecting PvP, I think it's safe to say that it makes balance even more difficult. It's a major factor for both PvE and PvP balance issues. And finding balance within 8 AC's and 3 different trees along with the assortment of hybrid specs available, along with it accomodating 2 very different game types... it makes what's already impossible, even more difficult to even get close to.

 

While I don't personally think that balance is completely horrible in this game.... there are definitely some issues that need to be looked at. Certain AC's and trees are simply not viable for a certain game type and some not viable for either. I feel as if a huge part of this problem lies with these trees being shared between PvE and PvP.

 

What if there were the same AC's, the same trees... only tweaks were made to these trees in PvE and PvP separately.

 

A tab in our spec trees for PvE and PvP. Both can be spec'd at the same time... but only one applies depending on whether you're in a war zone or in an operation.

 

The only problem I can think of with this idea, would be open world PvP. Since it happens in PvE areas and often NPC's get in the mix. Which would apply in that situation?

 

Anyways... just an idea that popped in my head after reading some other threads on forums. Are there any other reasons this wouldn't work, or is there even a solution to the obvious problem stated above? Looking for feedback before I do or don't throw this in the suggestion box.

 

Eh if BW can't balance 3 trees already, what makes you think they can balance 6 trees?

[UGLYMRJ]

Eh if BW can't balance 3 trees already, what makes you think they can balance 6 trees?

 

LOL... while I think the "fix one thing and break 5 others" rule that comes with BW worries me.

 

I just think it would stop the problem of fixing something for PvE and breaking it for PvP. The trees would be the same but the points in which we spec could be different.

 

Like the annihilation self heal change which annoys the hell outta me. I don't think anyone was complaining about annihlation in PvP but it just made the least viable PvP spec even less viable because it was over performing in PvE. If the same trees were tweaked separately... I think it would make the balancing act easier than it is now with them trying to find a happy medium between the 2 game types.