Kaggath Series: Darth Traya vs Revan

[Darth_Scelestus]

You're right.

 

HOWEVER: This would have been Revan near the beginning of the Mando War. So he wouldn't have been AS arrogant.

 

Oops... lol. I somehow got it in my head that this was the Revan from the END of the Mando Wars... my bad guys

[ReiKai]

People seem under the impression that soldiers, commanders and Jedi only started following Revan after he became a Sith Lord. That's just ridiculous. They were following him even before he Officially entered the Mandalorian War. It's what they called the Revanchist Movement. Alek (aka Malak, aka Squint) followed him even then, along with many other Jedi, and they were involved with scouting missions and other off-the-books assistance to Republic Forces. Revan was already building support not only among the Jedi, but among the Republic Military.

 

Revan became a General and gained control of a third of the Republic Navy not because he was a Jedi, but because many soldiers and leaders in the Republic trust and believe in him for doing what the Jedi Council refused to do. So the idea that Traya can get these people to betray the one they see as their savior and the great hero of the Mandalorian Wars, is not likely. And that would require Traya herself going to each and every one of these people to try and 'convince' them, which only puts her at greater risk. The only reason she managed to break Sion is because he was an inherently weak-minded person and had been under her thumb for years.

 

Revan, on the other hand, took her teachings, along with the rest of his Jedi Masters, and went further. Traya herself was infatuated with him. Do you think she'd ever be capable of truly matching his leadership skills? And with all the respect and admiration she has for him, would that not also affect the Sith in her own keeping and make them believe that Revan is perhaps the greater of the two leaders? After all, he is defying the Jedi Council. He got thousands of Jedi to follow his lead and many more soldiers. He single-handedly changed the face of war in the battle against the Mandalorians and saved the Republic.

 

Traya is good workin the shadows and doin back-stabby stuff. But that only worked so long as the Triumverate remained unknown. Once Meetra and the other Jedi became aware of the Assassins, they lost their effectiveness, and they never did infiltrate Atris' Academy on Telos.

[MasterMe]

Please do. You are under the impression that Revan knew how to make these assassins the whole time, when really he gained the knowledge from Malachor. This is the Revan that fought in the Mandalorian Wars. He has no knowledge of these assassins or how to recreate it.

 

Okay. Here goes:

 

1. Revan knows his master. This means that mass-deceptions aren't gonna work AS well on Revan as it would on others.

2. IF Malachor gave Revan the idea for assassins, then the fact remains that Revan possesses the ability to comprehend how to handle such scenarios.

3. Revan has obviously studied. We know he is great general, and a great general is gonna have some knowledge of assassins and their techniques (granted these assassins are different then others)

4. After a fight with the assassins, Revan would understand them very well, and would thus know how to counter them and perhaps recreate them. It's kinda like how the Carthaginians were beating the Romans until the Romans recovered on of the Carthaginian ships and studied it.

5. Revan is capable of mass-deceptions of his own. I guarantee you that Ordo says that Revan used "mass-deceptions" on them. I swear he said those exact to words together. This means that Revan is capable of such warfare.

 

The guys understands this stuff people. Trust me.

[MasterMe]

People seem under the impression that soldiers, commanders and Jedi only started following Revan after he became a Sith Lord. That's just ridiculous. They were following him even before he Officially entered the Mandalorian War. It's what they called the Revanchist Movement. Alek (aka Malak, aka Squint) followed him even then, along with many other Jedi, and they were involved with scouting missions and other off-the-books assistance to Republic Forces. Revan was already building support not only among the Jedi, but among the Republic Military.

 

Revan became a General and gained control of a third of the Republic Navy not because he was a Jedi, but because many soldiers and leaders in the Republic trust and believe in him for doing what the Jedi Council refused to do. So the idea that Traya can get these people to betray the one they see as their savior and the great hero of the Mandalorian Wars, is not likely. And that would require Traya herself going to each and every one of these people to try and 'convince' them, which only puts her at greater risk. The only reason she managed to break Sion is because he was an inherently weak-minded person and had been under her thumb for years.

 

Revan, on the other hand, took her teachings, along with the rest of his Jedi Masters, and went further. Traya herself was infatuated with him. Do you think she'd ever be capable of truly matching his leadership skills? And with all the respect and admiration she has for him, would that not also affect the Sith in her own keeping and make them believe that Revan is perhaps the greater of the two leaders? After all, he is defying the Jedi Council. He got thousands of Jedi to follow his lead and many more soldiers. He single-handedly changed the face of war in the battle against the Mandalorians and saved the Republic.

 

Traya is good workin the shadows and doin back-stabby stuff. But that only worked so long as the Triumverate remained unknown. Once Meetra and the other Jedi became aware of the Assassins, they lost their effectiveness, and they never did infiltrate Atris' Academy on Telos.

 

You speak the truth.

[Beniboybling]

If you weren't the guy in charge here... if only.... oh whatever.

 

Let's address this plan you speak of.

First off, there's no way Traya can get enough assassins on (every Republic ship."

Secondly, Revan is more then capable of countering such warfare. Proof? He invented these assassins. The guys knows about this sort of stuff. So these assassins won't be as effective as you implied in this post (imo).

Let me rephrase: every other ship she attacks in the outer rim. Traya engages a fleet and during the fighting infiltrates every other ship, maybe not every other but hypothetically only one would be needed - after the battle they would spread. So when Traya returns to fight the same forces, Revan's fleet loses. As all the infiltrated ships are converted.

 

Revan winning space really is a big deal. I will now give a scenario of my own:

 

After a long time of fighting, (with Traya at Malachor this whole time) Traya's fleet has been significantly damaged. They pull back to Malachor for the most part. This game just got a lot simpler. Revan then makes a blockade around Malachor (mind you he won't get too close to the planet). Sure Traya and her Sith can stay alive through the force, but the soldiers that are commanding the ships are gonna start starving. While this happens, Revan will chip away at the fleet. Now Traya's fleet is hardly anything. Granted; during this time her assassins are able to inflict a bit of damage on Revan's men, but not enough to counter-act Traya's casultie numbers. Now Revan has Malachor surrounded (from a distance 'cause he doesn't want to get too close). If he can't bomb the planet (which he could easily sacrifice a few ships to do so), then he sends EVERYBODY into Malachor. Revan's casulties would be high here, but they'd have success in killing what remained of Traya's Sith. In this particular battle here assassins won't accomplish much. At this point, Traya is the only one left, and Revan (along with a bunch of his Jedi) take on Traya and kill her. The end.

 

This (to me) seems like the most likely thing to happen.

You make a very good point here. Apart from the beginning. "After a long time" your making the assumption that after this long time Traya would be on the defensive. My theory of capture and convert suggests otherwise. Now I know we've been debating space battle for the last 15 or so pages. So if you feel the need to counter, just counter that point specifically.

 

But onto your scenario, lets say Traya does lose the space battle. And while Traya has control over whether he finds Malachor or not, even if she does lead him there - he's not foolish enough to come alone. So yes, your blockade scenario is a highly likely one.

 

Now, about Revan invading Malachor with all his forces. Most if not all of the ships (assumingly some kind of transports) crash on their attempts to land. (The Ebon Hawk crashed, and Atton was a skilled pilot.) Only a few, mainly Jedi piloted, ships would survive the gravitational pull and electical storms (and gun batteries is Traya is clever - which she is) Still, we have a considerbale force of Jedi and a scattering of Republic soldiers on the ground. (Which would have to regroup by the way which would lead to further casualties) Now the soldiers are irrelevant. By the gist of your scenario this blockade would be a prolonged one. Giving Traya more than enough time to set up ambushes etc. So the soldiers and Jedi would be constantly assaulted by Traya's remaining assassins, which would be numerous as their casualties during the war would have been minimal and would not be wasted on the blockade, as they attempt to reach the Core. Not only that, the soldiers, affected by the dark side energies of Malachor, would be blinded by its power and unable to fight effectively AKA bantha fodder. The Jedi would be not much better, while most would be able to resist its power, the dark side would cloud their vision - maybe even cut them off from the light. This would make them easy prey for the assassins, especially since they feed of Force users. So there forces would take a heavy hitting.

 

By the time they reach the Academy, only a handful of Jedi remain, all the soldiers have likely been killed - Revan would be no doubt among them. They would then have to wade through the academies Sith and more assassins. Now Meetra managed this by herself - but remember Traya will be applying full pressure on Revan. Most likely several Jedi will fall to the Sith, Revan will no doubt survive.

 

So, we have finally reached the core. Who remains? 5 maybe 6 Jedi? and... oh, dead. Killed instantly by Traya's dark healing. Suddenly Revan is alone. So no matter what the situation, it comes down to Revan vs Traya and Malachor V.

 

P.S. Revan has no knowledge of assassins at this point. And therefore would not be able to predict their moves. Secondly, conversion would probably take days/weeks. But that's irrelevant, Jedi surrounded by the dark side weak Jedi.

 

EDIT: Traya's assassins were different to Revan's assassins (i think) Traya's assassins had learned how to feed of the Force, and even if I'm wrong - Light side Revan would have no knowledge of such an ability.

Edited November 28, 2012 by Beniboybling

[Aurbere]

Okay. Here goes:

 

1. Revan knows his master. This means that mass-deceptions aren't gonna work AS well on Revan as it would on others.

2. IF Malachor gave Revan the idea for assassins, then the fact remains that Revan possesses the ability to comprehend how to handle such scenarios.

3. Revan has obviously studied. We know he is great general, and a great general is gonna have some knowledge of assassins and their techniques (granted these assassins are different then others)

4. After a fight with the assassins, Revan would understand them very well, and would thus know how to counter them and perhaps recreate them. It's kinda like how the Carthaginians were beating the Romans until the Romans recovered on of the Carthaginian ships and studied it.

5. Revan is capable of mass-deceptions of his own. I guarantee you that Ordo says that Revan used "mass-deceptions" on them. I swear he said those exact to words together. This means that Revan is capable of such warfare.

 

The guys understands this stuff people. Trust me.

 

You make interesting points. However, Revan does not know what makes them so effective. After fighting one, he would assume that they were skilled warriors capable of stealth. That is not the case. The assassins use a technique similar to Nihilus, as he is the pinnacle of what the assassins could achieve. The assassins feed off of the energy of the Force users they are fighting. It is the reason the Triumvirate was capable of wiping the Jedi Order out. Given time, the assassins would have hunted down the rest of the Jedi.

 

This gives the assassins an incredible advantage when fighting Force users. If they fought someone like Revan, he would be hard-pressed to defeat them. While Nihilus struck major blows to the Jedi Order, the assassins are responsible for a large number of Jedi deaths.

 

So now Revan's Jedi advantage is nullified. Suddenly, his Force users are outnumbered by Traya's. The standard Republic soldiers are no match for members of the Triumvirate.

 

While Revan would be able to handle the space battles with ease now. Land is a completely different scenario. An attack on Malachor with the few Force users he has is fool-hardy.

[Darth_Scelestus]

My updated view on this:

 

-- Both Revan and Traya understand that this war will be decided on Malachor V.

 

-- Revan will almost immediatley strike at M5 in order to bring the war to a swift conclusion.

 

-- Revan's Jedi, regardless of whether they succumb to the dark side on M5, will still follow Revan. They outnumber Traya's Sith, and will likely destroy their enemies. They could feasible begin drawing on the dark side energies of the planet themselves, increasing their power and their chances for victory.

 

-- Revan fights Traya at the Core, either alone or with the aid of his survivng Jedi. Now it comes down to Traya and her ability to sever her enemies connection to the Force, or her ability to forge Force Bonds. This is where my knowledge is a bit lacking -- is there any defense against these techniques besides those used by the Exile? Do these techniques work in the midst of combat, when their target's guard is up?

 

 

Now think: would Traya, the master planner and manipulator, have forseen Revan's actions? And if so, what traps or contingencies has she prepared?

[Aurbere]

Let me rephrase: every other ship she attacks in the outer rim. Traya engages a fleet and during the fighting infiltrates every other ship, maybe not every other but hypothetically only one would be needed - after the battle they would spread. So when Traya returns to fight the same forces, Revan's fleet loses. As all the infiltrated ships are converted.

 

 

You make a very good point here. Apart from the beginning. "After a long time" your making the assumption that after this long time Traya would be on the defensive. My theory of capture and convert suggests otherwise. Now I know we've been debating space battle for the last 15 or so pages. So if you feel the need to counter, just counter that point specifically.

 

But onto your scenario, lets say Traya does lose the space battle. And while Traya has control over whether he finds Malachor or not, even if she does lead him there - he's not foolish enough to come alone. So yes, your blockade scenario is a highly likely one.

 

Now, about Revan invading Malachor with all his forces. Most if not all of the ships (assumingly some kind of transports) crash on their attempts to land. (The Ebon Hawk crashed, and Atton was a skilled pilot.) Only a few, mainly Jedi piloted, ships would survive the gravitational pull and electical storms (and gun batteries is Traya is clever - which she is) Still, we have a considerbale force of Jedi and a scattering of Republic soldiers on the ground. (Which would have to regroup by the way which would lead to further casualties) Now the soldiers are irrelevant. By the gist of your scenario this blockade would be a prolonged one. Giving Traya more than enough time to set up ambushes etc. So the soldiers and Jedi would be constantly assaulted by Traya's remaining assassins, which would be numerous as their casualties during the war would have been minimal and would not be wasted on the blockade, as they attempt to reach the Core. Not only that, the soldiers, affected by the dark side energies of Malachor, would be blinded by its power and unable to fight effectively AKA bantha fodder. The Jedi would be not much better, while most would be able to resist its power, the dark side would cloud their vision - maybe even cut them off from the light. This would make them easy prey for the assassins, especially since they feed of Force users. So there forces would take a heavy hitting.

 

By the time they reach the Academy, only a handful of Jedi remain, all the soldiers have likely been killed - Revan would be no doubt among them. They would then have to wade through the academies Sith and more assassins. Now Meetra managed this by herself - but remember Traya will be applying full pressure on Revan. Most likely several Jedi will fall to the Sith, Revan will no doubt survive.

 

So, we have finally reached the core. Who remains? 5 maybe 6 Jedi? and... oh, dead. Killed instantly by Traya's dark healing. Suddenly Revan is alone. So no matter what the situation, it comes down to Revan vs Traya and Malachor V.

 

P.S. Revan has no knowledge of assassins at this point. And therefore would not be able to predict their moves. Secondly, conversion would probably take days/weeks. But that's irrelevant, Jedi surrounded by the dark side weak Jedi.

 

If I could just say one thing. Meetra destroyed the Academy because she was a wound in the Force. I don't think the Assassins could feed off of her energies because Nihilus couldn't.

[Aurbere]

My updated view on this:

 

-- Both Revan and Traya understand that this war will be decided on Malachor V.

 

-- Revan will almost immediatley strike at M5 in order to bring the war to a swift conclusion.

 

-- Revan's Jedi, regardless of whether they succumb to the dark side on M5, will still follow Revan. They outnumber Traya's Sith, and will likely destroy their enemies. They could feasible begin drawing on the dark side energies of the planet themselves, increasing their power and their chances for victory.

 

-- Revan fights Traya at the Core, either alone or with the aid of his survivng Jedi. Now it comes down to Traya and her ability to sever her enemies connection to the Force, or her ability to forge Force Bonds. This is where my knowledge is a bit lacking -- is there any defense against these techniques besides those used by the Exile? Do these techniques work in the midst of combat, when their target's guard is up?

 

 

Now think: would Traya, the master planner and manipulator, have forseen Revan's actions? And if so, what traps or contingencies has she prepared?

 

Traya was able to instantly kill the three masters on Dantooine instantly. She could do the same here.

 

And yes. She would have traps in place and assassins prepared to strike. Many underestimate the power of the assassins. They feed off of Force users, gaining strength in a way similar to Nihilus. The stronger the Force users, the stronger they get. The assassins would decimate Revan's forces.

[Beniboybling]

My updated view on this:

 

-- Both Revan and Traya understand that this war will be decided on Malachor V.

 

-- Revan will almost immediatley strike at M5 in order to bring the war to a swift conclusion.

 

-- Revan's Jedi, regardless of whether they succumb to the dark side on M5, will still follow Revan. They outnumber Traya's Sith, and will likely destroy their enemies. They could feasible begin drawing on the dark side energies of the planet themselves, increasing their power and their chances for victory.

 

-- Revan fights Traya at the Core, either alone or with the aid of his survivng Jedi. Now it comes down to Traya and her ability to sever her enemies connection to the Force, or her ability to forge Force Bonds. This is where my knowledge is a bit lacking -- is there any defense against these techniques besides those used by the Exile? Do these techniques work in the midst of combat, when their target's guard is up?

 

 

Now think: would Traya, the master planner and manipulator, have forseen Revan's actions? And if so, what traps or contingencies has she prepared?

You may not have read my previous post. But conversion is irrelevant. Malachor wouldn't convert them, it would kill them!

 

Jedi vs Dark side nexus + sith assassins who feed of the force + sith lords/adepts + hazardous terrain + tactical advantage + Traya = dead Jedi in all scenarios. Revan arrives at the Core alone. Plus even in the very very unlikely scenario that the do reach the Core, Traya would kill them with ease.

 

Basically I want to establish a universal common ground where we can all agree that Revan will face Traya alone and get to the real debate. Revan vs Traya & Malachor V

Edited November 28, 2012 by Beniboybling

[MasterMe]

Let me rephrase: every other ship she attacks in the outer rim. Traya engages a fleet and during the fighting infiltrates every other ship, maybe not every other but hypothetically only one would be needed - after the battle they would spread. So when Traya returns to fight the same forces, Revan's fleet loses. As all the infiltrated ships are converted.

 

 

You make a very good point here. Apart from the beginning. "After a long time" your making the assumption that after this long time Traya would be on the defensive. My theory of capture and convert suggests otherwise. Now I know we've been debating space battle for the last 15 or so pages. So if you feel the need to counter, just counter that point specifically.

 

But onto your scenario, lets say Traya does lose the space battle. And while Traya has control over whether he finds Malachor or not, even if she does lead him there - he's not foolish enough to come alone. So yes, your blockade scenario is a highly likely one.

 

Now, about Revan invading Malachor with all his forces. Most if not all of the ships (assumingly some kind of transports) crash on their attempts to land. (The Ebon Hawk crashed, and Atton was a skilled pilot.) Only a few, mainly Jedi piloted, ships would survive the gravitational pull and electical storms (and gun batteries is Traya is clever - which she is) Still, we have a considerbale force of Jedi and a scattering of Republic soldiers on the ground. (Which would have to regroup by the way which would lead to further casualties) Now the soldiers are irrelevant. By the gist of your scenario this blockade would be a prolonged one. Giving Traya more than enough time to set up ambushes etc. So the soldiers and Jedi would be constantly assaulted by Traya's remaining assassins, which would be numerous as their casualties during the war would have been minimal and would not be wasted on the blockade, as they attempt to reach the Core. Not only that, the soldiers, affected by the dark side energies of Malachor, would be blinded by its power and unable to fight effectively AKA bantha fodder. The Jedi would be not much better, while most would be able to resist its power, the dark side would cloud their vision - maybe even cut them off from the light. This would make them easy prey for the assassins, especially since they feed of Force users. So there forces would take a heavy hitting.

 

By the time they reach the Academy, only a handful of Jedi remain, all the soldiers have likely been killed - Revan would be no doubt among them. They would then have to wade through the academies Sith and more assassins. Now Meetra managed this by herself - but remember Traya will be applying full pressure on Revan. Most likely several Jedi will fall to the Sith, Revan will no doubt survive.

 

So, we have finally reached the core. Who remains? 5 maybe 6 Jedi? and... oh, dead. Killed instantly by Traya's dark healing. Suddenly Revan is alone. So no matter what the situation, it comes down to Revan vs Traya and Malachor V.

 

P.S. Revan has no knowledge of assassins at this point. And therefore would not be able to predict their moves. Secondly, conversion would probably take days/weeks. But that's irrelevant, Jedi surrounded by the dark side weak Jedi.

 

Would you explain why Revan couldn't just bomb the crap out of Malachor a second time?

 

As for the scenario, I don't think you realize just how badly Revan would outnumber Traya at this time.

 

For argument's sake, we'll say that Revan has 5 or 6 Jedi with him. Then BAM! They're gone - like you say. If Traya could pull that off, she'd be significantly weakened. The same thing that happened to Darth Xedrix when he fought Scourge. He used up all his force juice. I realize that Traya will be on Malachor, and her force will be enhanced a lot, but Revan is just gonna outnumber her so bad, and his bombardments from space are gonna make it hard on Traya.

[Aurbere]

Would you explain why Revan couldn't just bomb the crap out of Malachor a second time?

 

As for the scenario, I don't think you realize just how badly Revan would outnumber Traya at this time.

 

For argument's sake, we'll say that Revan has 5 or 6 Jedi with him. Then BAM! They're gone - like you say. If Traya could pull that off, she'd be significantly weakened. The same thing that happened to Darth Xedrix when he fought Scourge. He used up all his force juice. I realize that Traya will be on Malachor, and her force will be enhanced a lot, but Revan is just gonna outnumber her so bad, and his bombardments from space are gonna make it hard on Traya.

 

If the Trayus Academy could survive its first encounter with the Mass Shadow Generator, a bombardment should be inconsequential.

 

But even if he did. Do you really think Revan would just bombard his master? He could have just blown Mandalore the Ultimate up, but he fought him one-on-one. The same with Traya.

[Beniboybling]

Would you explain why Revan couldn't just bomb the crap out of Malachor a second time?

The Mass Shadow Generator was a superweapon that drew on mass shadows. Once activated it creates a vast gravitational vortex on the planet, and rips everything out of the sky and crushes everything on the planet. The weapon has no 'off' or 'reverse' button. After activation its effects remained, Malachor's gravity was heavily unstable, therefore any large ship that got close would be drawn in and destroyed (also gotta get passed all that debris). Smaller ships, cause smaller gravitational pull (physics and that ) so they can land, but even them they would most likely crash due to electrical storms. So no orbital bombardments.

 

EDIT:

If the Trayus Academy could survive its first encounter with the Mass Shadow Generator, a bombardment should be inconsequential.

 

But even if he did. Do you really think Revan would just bombard his master? He could have just blown Mandalore the Ultimate up, but he fought him one-on-one. The same with Traya.

This too, the academy survived one of the most devastating weapons in galactic history. Nothing short of a Death Star is going to destroy that Academy. They'd have to rip the planet to pieces, and that assuming they even know where the Academy is. (Yet another variable stacked up against the invaders)

 

As for the scenario, I don't think you realize just how badly Revan would outnumber Traya at this time.

 

For argument's sake, we'll say that Revan has 5 or 6 Jedi with him. Then BAM! They're gone - like you say. If Traya could pull that off, she'd be significantly weakened. The same thing that happened to Darth Xedrix when he fought Scourge. He used up all his force juice. I realize that Traya will be on Malachor, and her force will be enhanced a lot, but Revan is just gonna outnumber her so bad, and his bombardments from space are gonna make it hard on Traya.

Numbers are irrevlant, Malachor is a planet sized death trap. You can throw all your forces at it, but nothing short of mining it too pieces is going to make a difference. Basically you have to consider the fact that Revan's forces won't only be up against Traya's forces - but Malachor itself. And Malachor is one nasty planet.

 

Darth Xedrix was a weak and infirm old man who was hollow of the Force. Traya was one of the most powerful sith in the galaxy, and had a bottomless pool of dark side energy to draw on. She could kill those Jedi (like she dropped those dozen assassins) without raising a figure (that is not an exaggeration). So they are out of the picture pretty damn quick. Its just Revan and Traya. Debate

Edited November 28, 2012 by Beniboybling

[Darth_Scelestus]

Its just Revan and Traya. Debate

 

I dont think there is a debate here, not when Traya has the powers of Sever and Drain and a bottomless pool of energy.

 

 

EDIT:

After reviewing all the arguements made so far, I'd have to say that Revan's only hope of victory is to trap Traya on M5. And I don't think he'd have enough information to *know* that that was his only hope for victory.

 

Traya now has my vote.

Edited November 28, 2012 by Darth_Scelestus

[Aurbere]

Its just Revan and Traya. Debate

 

Traya. Force Drain=insta-kill. Sever Force= insta-win. Dark Healing that she used on those assassins= insta-kill

 

Sorry, but Revan has nothing in this engagement. He's not only fighting Traya, but Malachor itself.

[Beniboybling]

Traya. Force Drain=insta-kill. Sever Force= insta-win. Dark Healing that she used on those assassins= insta-kill

 

Sorry, but Revan has nothing in this engagement. He's not only fighting Traya, but Malachor itself.

Not so my friend, not so. I activate Blue Eyes White Dragon! AKA Force resistance! Hey its evolving?! Force immunity! Ta dah!

 

Basically there's the little power that both Jedi and Sith learn, that protects them from Force attacks. Always wondered why in lightsaber duels the opponent didn't just force push them into the nearest pit? Here's your answer. So basically Force drain/sever force is not an insta-kill - she has to break through his force resistance first. Seeing as he is a powerful Jedi this is unlikely to happen, perhaps.

 

EDIT: You may be interested to know, that I'm actually keeping a tally on this debate (as difficult as that is)

The scores so far:

 

Traya: 25

Revan: 23

Edited November 28, 2012 by Beniboybling

[Aurbere]

Not so my friend, not so. I activate Blue Eyes White Dragon! AKA Force resistance! Hey its evolving?! Force immunity! Ta dah!

 

Basically there's the little power that both Jedi and Sith learn, that protects them from Force attacks. Always wondered why in lightsaber duels the opponent didn't just force push them into the nearest pit? Here's your answer. So basically Force drain/sever force is not an insta-kill - she has to break through his force resistance first. Seeing as he is a powerful Jedi this is unlikely to happen, perhaps.

 

Perhaps, but with the power of Malachor I don't see it happening. But if it did come down to a straight up fight, Traya holds all the cards. Sure Revan has the better dueling skills, but Traya is powered by the nexus of Dark Side energy.

 

Edit: and Blue-Eyes White Dragon is a monster card.

Edited November 28, 2012 by Aurbere

[mefit]

I have accouple questions for this

 

1 The academy was Darth Revan's before Traya's , if Darth Revan never came to be or we are not at this point than won't the Academy be off the topic?

 

2 Revan even as just a Jedi Knight was adaptive to the battles he came into , its how he beat the Mando's and eventually became worse than them

.

3 Darth Revan had Sith Assassins , not Jedi Knight Revan . I could be wrong but he did not use Sith Assassins till the after he came back from the Outer Rim .

 

4 The Fleet Traya was what was left of Jedi Knight Revan's Fleet , Darth Revan's Fleet , and before her Malek's Fleet . I do not get how we can give her what we can only assume might be or not Revan's own people.

 

5 Alot of the Sith at the Academy were infact placed there by Darth Revan , but again if he never came to be neither would that base .

 

6 Kreia herself said Revan was more than her . Its canon , I do not think she would have said that if she doubted his skill . The Revan she largely known was that Jedi Knight in this battle. She even says in KotoRII what Revan became is unknown to her .

 

7 Kreia is not a Great Manipulator , only person who mostly believed in her was Sion and even then he did not fully care for her and what she said.

As in KotoR II your own crew Questioned her often and in the end you learn they were right about her the whole time.

Nihilus in the end did not care for her .The only reason the Sith followed her is because of her link to Revan.

Without Nihilus and Sion , her powerbase would have fell apart .

 

8 Revan built his powerbase and converted Jedi to his cause (The Mando War) against their own teachings and the Council. We can give his ability to Convert people to Kreia , even though through KotoR II she seems often not able to get those to listen her and see past that there is something really wrong with her. I am sure there are more Jedi and Sith that are would see past her like Nihilus , The Exile , Sion . I am sure they weren't special in doing so as we can see in KotoR II.

 

9 Revan was made for Combat (What canon we have of him points this out all through his life) , its what he does and he does it very well , Kreia never was involved in the War itself and her start of a Empire was falling apart rapidly . The Exile with ease finished it off , I am sure Revan might not have done it so easy but I am sure he would have been close to what The Exile did .

("Foundry Revan got killed by 4 nobodies in Foundry ...........Everyone rightfully loses one day , Traya lost to a barely warmed up Exile , who out smarted her as Revan would have done .")

 

I earlier posted Revan would win , but I am really not caring either or . I will just point out his Pros and her Cons

Take Half and Half of my OWN OPINION and others from Canon Facts , Revan's Canon is lacking but from what we know of him , even before he was a Sith Lord he was aggressive , he would not have wasted time playing with Traya and it would be fatal if he did . He adapts and he would to everything she threw at him .

 

Imma point out I like Kreia/Traya , if Leland Chee was to come out today and say she would mud stomp Revan without spilling her Green Tea , I would be just as cool with it as if it went the otherway .

Edited November 28, 2012 by mefit

[Beniboybling]

Lol, a couple is two - I see nine. I shall, as the arbiter of the debate, answer your questions however.

1 The academy was Darth Revan's before Traya's , if Darth Revan never came to be or we are not at this point than won't the Academy be off the topic?

Point, but as the ground rules tell us:

Use your imagination: obviously these powers existed in different time frames, but let’s just pretend.

 

So we just have to remove these powers from their respective time zones, and place them in our fictional arena. So Malachor remains as it would be under Traya's control.

2 Revan even as just a Jedi Knight was adaptive to the battles he came into , its how he beat the Mando's and eventually became worse than them .

This is not a question, but an argument. So I'll leave that one for the audience.

3 Darth Revan had Sith Assassins , not Jedi Knight Revan . I could be wrong but he did not use Sith Assassins till the after he came back from the Outer Rim .

This is what I've being telling people. Revan has no knowledge of Sith assassins - or any natural ability to train them. You are correct here.

4 The Fleet Traya was what was left of Jedi Knight Revan's Fleet , Darth Revan's Fleet , and before her Malek's Fleet . I do not get how we can give her what we can only assume might be or not Revan's own people.

It did not consist of the Republic forces that Revan used in the Mandalorian Wars (which make up his current powerbase) it was a new Sith fleet made by the Star Forge.

5 Alot of the Sith at the Academy were infact placed there by Darth Revan , but again if he never came to be neither would that base .

Same answer to question one.

6 Lastly , Kreia herself said Revan was more than her . Its canon , I do not think she would have said that if she doubted his skill . The Revan she largely known was that Jedi Knight in this battle.

True, Traya vs Revan would result in a win for Revan. But this is Tired Revan vs Traya & Malachor V - a nexus of the dark side. May I also mention that the dark side lessens a lightsiders connection to the light side of the Force.

7 Kreia is not a Great Manipulator , only person who mostly believed in her was Sion and even then he did not fully care for her and what she said.

Yes she is. She basically orchestrated the events of KOTOR II.

As in KotoR II your own crew Questioned her often and in the end you learn they were right about her the whole time.

Yep, yet she still stopped them from killing her. How? Through manipulation

Nihilus in the end did not care for her .The only reason the Sith followed her is because of her link to Revan.

Without Nihilus and Sion , her powerbase would have fell apart .

Not really a point here. If the Sith only followed her because of Revan, what does Sion and Nihilus have to do with anything?

8 Revan built his powerbase and converted Jedi to his cause (The Mando War) against their own teachings and the Council. We can give his ability to Convert people to Kreia , even though through KotoR II she seems often not able to get those to listen her and see past that there is something really wrong with her. I am sure there are more Jedi and Sith that are would see past her like Nihilus , The Exile , Sion . I am sure they weren't special in doing so as we can see in KotoR II.

Except here she wouldn't be reasoning you, she would be using a combination of torture and the power of the dark side to beat you into submission. In fact, she probably wouldn't even be there, her minions would do it for her.

9 Revan was Build for Combat , its what he does and he does it very well , Kreia never was involved in the War itself and her start of a Empire was falling apart rapidly . The Exile with ease finished it off , I am sure Revan might not have done it so easy but I am sure he would have been close to what The Exile did .

Again, a point of debate - and a good one at that. I'll leave that to the others.

 

Let me just say though, that despite all Revan's smarts - she would force him into a confrontation at Malachor. Whether Revan could bring his battle skills to bear in a 1v1 duel is another question.

 

Imma point out I like Kreia/Traya , if Leland Chee was to come out today and say she would mud stomp Revan without spilling her Green Tea , I would be just as cool with it as if it went the otherway .

Nice to hear.

Edited November 28, 2012 by Beniboybling

[Aurbere]

I have accouple questions for this

 

1 The academy was Darth Revan's before Traya's , if Darth Revan never came to be or we are not at this point than won't the Academy be off the topic?

 

2 Revan even as just a Jedi Knight was adaptive to the battles he came into , its how he beat the Mando's and eventually became worse than them

.

3 Darth Revan had Sith Assassins , not Jedi Knight Revan . I could be wrong but he did not use Sith Assassins till the after he came back from the Outer Rim .

 

4 The Fleet Traya was what was left of Jedi Knight Revan's Fleet , Darth Revan's Fleet , and before her Malek's Fleet . I do not get how we can give her what we can only assume might be or not Revan's own people.

 

5 Alot of the Sith at the Academy were infact placed there by Darth Revan , but again if he never came to be neither would that base .

 

6 Kreia herself said Revan was more than her . Its canon , I do not think she would have said that if she doubted his skill . The Revan she largely known was that Jedi Knight in this battle. She even says in KotoRII what Revan became is unknown to her .

 

7 Kreia is not a Great Manipulator , only person who mostly believed in her was Sion and even then he did not fully care for her and what she said.

As in KotoR II your own crew Questioned her often and in the end you learn they were right about her the whole time.

Nihilus in the end did not care for her .The only reason the Sith followed her is because of her link to Revan.

Without Nihilus and Sion , her powerbase would have fell apart .

 

8 Revan built his powerbase and converted Jedi to his cause (The Mando War) against their own teachings and the Council. We can give his ability to Convert people to Kreia , even though through KotoR II she seems often not able to get those to listen her and see past that there is something really wrong with her. I am sure there are more Jedi and Sith that are would see past her like Nihilus , The Exile , Sion . I am sure they weren't special in doing so as we can see in KotoR II.

 

9 Revan was made for Combat (What canon we have of him points this out all through his life) , its what he does and he does it very well , Kreia never was involved in the War itself and her start of a Empire was falling apart rapidly . The Exile with ease finished it off , I am sure Revan might not have done it so easy but I am sure he would have been close to what The Exile did .

("Foundry Revan got killed by 4 nobodies in Foundry ...........Everyone rightfully loses one day , Traya lost to a barely warmed up Exile , who out smarted her as Revan would have done .")

 

I earlier posted Revan would win , but I am really not caring either or . I will just point out his Pros and her Cons

Take Half and Half of my OWN OPINION and others from Canon Facts , Revan's Canon is lacking but from what we know of him , even before he was a Sith Lord he was aggressive , he would not have wasted time playing with Traya and it would be fatal if he did . He adapts and he would to everything she threw at him .

 

Imma point out I like Kreia/Traya , if Leland Chee was to come out today and say she would mud stomp Revan without spilling her Green Tea , I would be just as cool with it as if it went the otherway .

 

I would like to point out that time is not a factor. This scenario is taking Traya from while she was in control of the Triumvirate, and pitting her against Revan while he was in command of his portion of the Republic fleet.

 

Think of it like one person from a different universe fighting someone from another universe.

[Beniboybling]

Edit: and Blue-Eyes White Dragon is a monster card.

I have altered the rules. Pray I don’t alter them any further!

[Aurbere]

I have altered the rules. Pray I don’t alter them any further!

 

Screw the rules, I have money!

[Beniboybling]

Hey fanbois? You out there? Revan is losing a duel - you may wish to intervene.

[MasterMe]

The Mass Shadow Generator was a superweapon that drew on mass shadows. Once activated it creates a vast gravitational vortex on the planet, and rips everything out of the sky and crushes everything on the planet. The weapon has no 'off' or 'reverse' button. After activation its effects remained, Malachor's gravity was heavily unstable, therefore any large ship that got close would be drawn in and destroyed (also gotta get passed all that debris). Smaller ships, cause smaller gravitational pull (physics and that ) so they can land, but even them they would most likely crash due to electrical storms. So no orbital bombardments.

 

EDIT:

This too, the academy survived one of the most devastating weapons in galactic history. Nothing short of a Death Star is going to destroy that Academy. They'd have to rip the planet to pieces, and that assuming they even know where the Academy is. (Yet another variable stacked up against the invaders)

 

 

Numbers are irrevlant, Malachor is a planet sized death trap. You can throw all your forces at it, but nothing short of mining it too pieces is going to make a difference. Basically you have to consider the fact that Revan's forces won't only be up against Traya's forces - but Malachor itself. And Malachor is one nasty planet.

 

Darth Xedrix was a weak and infirm old man who was hollow of the Force. Traya was one of the most powerful sith in the galaxy, and had a bottomless pool of dark side energy to draw on. She could kill those Jedi (like she dropped those dozen assassins) without raising a figure (that is not an exaggeration). So they are out of the picture pretty damn quick. Its just Revan and Traya. Debate

 

Well. The way you've stacked it up, Revan can't win. It's not even a debate. You insist of this coming down to Revan vs Traya on Malachor V. Furthermore, this isn't Revan during his prime. If it comes down to this (which I've argued that it wouldn't) then Revan loses. It really isn't even a debate.

 

I'm sorry Revan. I tried to concinve them.

[Aurbere]

Hey fanbois? You out there? Revan is losing a duel - you may wish to intervene.

 

There really is nothing Revan can do. He's fighting one of the most powerful Sith of her time in a nexus of Dark Side energies. He's absolutely outmatched. He's not only fighting Traya, but Malachor itself.

 

Edit: You may as well call this one. Revan may have won the battles, but when it came down to the fight that mattered, he lost.

Edited November 28, 2012 by Aurbere