Kaggath Series: Prince Xizor vs Tyber Zann

[Beniboybling]

“No game of dejarik can be won without pawns...”

 

Round 2: Prince Xizor vs Tyber Zann

-

(AKA Black Sun vs Zann Consortium)

 

Welcome to the second instalment of the ‘Kaggath vs Series’ in which I’ll be pitting the power bases of iconic Star Wars characters against each other.

 

The last battle, Grievous vs Malgus, was a victory for the Darth – thanks to his unstoppable stealth armada. If you disagree, the debate's still open. But on to round two.

 

For all those of you aren’t aware, the Kaggath is an ancient rite of the Sith, ‘one part duel, one part large-scale dejarik-match’. The two combatants have full use of their power bases, be it armies, strongholds or fleets, in order to outwit and outmanoeuvre their opponent. The Kaggath is no simply lightsaber duel, although it can come down to one, and the arena can be anywhere: a planet, star system or the entire galaxy.

 

Before we begin, let’s just go over the ground rules again:

 

 

• The arena: the known galaxy.
  
• No outside help of any kind, the combatants cannot call upon assets outside their power base, or other prominent powers. This excludes allies of the era, i.e. Guri, IG-88, Urai Fen, Silri. (The Nightsisters are included in Zann’s power base)
  
• No outside involvement, other powers will not and cannot interrupt or affect the battle, for the purpose of argument they are non-existent.
  
• No surrender, fight to the death!
  
• No superweapons, e.g. the Eclipse.
  
• Technology level is universal: blaster fire, armouring, lightsabers etc. is all the same regardless of period, all that matters is size, quantity and power.
  
• These powers existed in the same time frame, so this Kaggath will occur at the height of the Galactic Empire era – not that that changes much.
  

 

So, the combatants: the leaders of two of the most influential and powerful crime syndicates of their age. Both Xizor and Zann were cold, calculating, tactical geniuses and criminal masterminds.

 

Prince Xizor had the assets, reach and influence of the Black Sun – the most infamous crime syndicate in the galaxy – at his disposal. As well as a vast amount of intelligence. Tyber Zann had an array of unique technology and weaponry, thanks to unlimited access to the Black Market, including stealth generators and suicide Jawas (I’m not kidding). But who would win? The notorious criminal empire or the unpredictable army of felons?

 

P.S If you have any suggestions for future threads, post below.

 

Let the Kaggath begin!

 

Victor: Prince Xizor

Edited November 30, 2012 by Beniboybling

[MasterMe]

Wow.

 

I have very little knowledge of these characters, so I won't be able to give my two cents (at least until this debate goes on for a while and I'm able to see a little more about the characters).

 

But I'm happy Malgus won!

*flexes his debate muscles*

- jk lol

[Beniboybling]

Wow.

 

I have very little knowledge of these characters, so I won't be able to give my two cents (at least until this debate goes on for a while and I'm able to see a little more about the characters).

 

But I'm happy Malgus won!

*flexes his debate muscles*

- jk lol

I've posted links to their Wookiee pages (just click the names) so you can read up on them if you like. But yeah, I don't know much about them myself, all I know is they are very cool and some of the most powerful crime lords who ever existed.

[ToEasy]

I would say that Tyber Zann would win. He seems to have superior soldiers, vehicles, and ships and more variety. I don't think that Black Sun's army is powerful enough to win against the Zann Consortium. Edited November 24, 2012 by ToEasy

[Wolfninjajedi]

While Zann has access to unique and interesting technology, Xizor more then likely has access to the same. The Black Sun had massive amount of reach and influence across the galaxy and its resources were practically limitless, the resources even rivaled those of planetary armies which included foot soldiers. The Black Sun's greatest asset however is their information network which surpassed even Imperial Intelligence, this is a big key factor in favor of the Black Sun to get information on Zann and what he would be up to.

[Rayla_Felana]

The Hutt Cartel.

 

But in all seriousness, Zann, he has much better ships to use, he has stolen quite a Star Destroyers and an SSD IIRC.

Edited November 24, 2012 by Rayla_Felana

[Aurbere]

Tyber Zann has superior forces, space and ground, and he's a mastermind to boot.

 

Tyber would win in all areas.

Space:

Star Destroyers

Mandalorian ships of all sizes

Pirate ships

Stolen Imperial vessels

 

Land:

Mandalorian heavy vehicles

Destroyer Droids

Mercs with Black Market tech

Nightsisters

 

While Prince Xizor was the head of the Black Sun, Tyber was master of the criminal underworld. He had set up extortion rings, black markets, and racketeering across the galaxy. As expansive as the Black Sun gang is, Tyber can get his defilers where ever they need to go to sabotage Xizors efforts.

 

Plus, Tyber can always interest Xizor's men in a little side mission.

[Warren-Stride]

Xizor was the third most powerful being in the galaxy at his peak, right after Vader and the Emporer.

 

Zann has the military advantage. No doubt.

 

However, I don't think this Kaggath would come down to warfare. The Black Sun seems to be above all out war, while obviously the Consortium is not.

 

I would assume that this Kaggath would be more of ruining the other's criminal empire. Stealing credits, eliminating crime bosses, bribing opponent's allies. I feel like Prince Xizor would be in a better position to do all that. He's Fallen, too, so if he meets anyone in person they'll automatically want to take his side! XD

 

As for who would be killed.... I don't think it would be 1v1, but if it was, I think the Prince might win... the only thing we known about Zann is that he has a shotgun. More likely, it would be whose assassins find the other first. Nightsisters might give Zann an edge, but Xizor has his spy network that could (I assume) easily find Zann's hiding place, if he's even hiding, and kill him.

 

I vote Xizor, but I'm not sure like I was with Grievous.

Edited November 24, 2012 by Warren-Stride

[Beniboybling]

Xizor was the third most powerful being in the galaxy at his peak, right after Vader and the Emporer.

 

Zann has the military advantage. No doubt.

 

However, I don't think this Kaggath would come down to warfare. The Black Sun seems to be above all out war, while obviously the Consortium is not.

 

I would assume that this Kaggath would be more of ruining the other's criminal empire. Stealing credits, eliminating crime bosses, bribing opponent's allies. I feel like Prince Xizor would be in a better position to do all that. He's Fallen, too, so if he meets anyone in person they'll automatically want to take his side! XD

 

As for who would be killed.... I don't think it would be 1v1, but if it was, I think the Prince might win... the only thing we known about Zann is that he has a shotgun. More likely, it would be whose assassins find the other first. Nightsisters might give Zann an edge, but Xizor has his spy network that could (I assume) easily find Zann's hiding place, if he's even hiding, and kill him.

 

I vote Xizor, but I'm not sure like I was with Grievous.

Warren-Stride makes an excellent point. Zann may have the military advantage (however as pointed out by Wolfinajedi this is highly debatable) but Xizor has the most powerful and infamous crime syndicate in the galaxy, and with that comes a lot of influence and intelligence.

 

Now of course, the ground rules prevent Xizor from say getting direct Imperial involvement, but he is more than equipped to sabotage Zann's consortium and turn is power base against him.

 

1v1 Xizor would probably use pheromones to addle his mind, then kill him. Or even use assassins to eliminate him, and with the wealth of Intelligence he has - Xizor would know Zann's every move. In short, in a war of manipulation Xizor would be the victor. Zann would have to strike quick and hard to win.

 

Please, convince me otherwise. Or I shall declare Xizor the winner! Power! Unlimited power!

Edited November 24, 2012 by Beniboybling

[Aurbere]

Warren-Stride makes an excellent point. Zann may have the military advantage (however as pointed out by Wolfinajedi this is highly debatable) but Xizor has the most powerful and infamous crime syndicate in the galaxy, and with that comes a lot of influence and intelligence.

 

Now of course, the ground rules prevent Xizor from say getting direct Imperial involvement, but he is more than equipped to sabotage Zann's consortium and turn is power base against him.

 

1v1 Xizor would probably use pheromones to addle his mind, then kill him. Or even use assassins to eliminate him, and with the wealth of Intelligence he has - Xizor would know Zann's every move. In short, in a war of manipulation Xizor would be the victor. Zann would have to strike quick and hard to win.

 

Please, convince me otherwise. Or I shall declare Xizor the winner! Power! Unlimited power!

 

Well I think this particular argument works both ways as Tyber Zann has his defilers that he can use to sabotage Xizor's efforts. This really comes down to who can get their guys in positions of sabotage. In this regard, Xizor has the immediate advantage, but Tyber can get his people moving quickly and can have his defilers infiltrate Xizor's empire. So now we have a sort of Cold War going on. And I think Xizor would win this type of war.

 

But if things boiled down to military efforts, Zann has the military strength to win.

 

I can't say who would win definitively, but I'm leaning towards Zann just because he can mobilize his cronies quickly and has the military strength to pull out a win in war.

 

In the game of deception, Xizor has a big lead, but Tyber can catch up with the right cards. Militarily, Zann has it.

 

I would actually call this one a draw as the battle could swing either way.

[Warren-Stride]

Please, convince me otherwise. Or I shall declare Xizor the winner! Power! Unlimited power!

 

Quick, someone pull the "Zann has Stealthed Ships" card!

 

Sorry.... couldn't resist.

[Aurbere]

Quick, someone pull the "Zann has Stealthed Ships" card!

 

Sorry.... couldn't resist.

 

I summon The Merciless in attack mode! (I just could not resist saying that)

 

But yeah, Zann has the stealthed ships. Which means that he can move around without being picked up by Xizor's intelligence network. This is subject to debate of course.

[GarfieldJL]

I summon The Merciless in attack mode! (I just could not resist saying that)

 

But yeah, Zann has the stealthed ships. Which means that he can move around without being picked up by Xizor's intelligence network. This is subject to debate of course.

 

I think Xizor had stealth tech too, or if he didn't he'd probably acquire it fairly quickly. I also think the handicapping Xizor by saying he wouldn't have Guri doesn't make much sense, considering Guri was his bodyguard...

 

In all honesty, Xizor's pheromones may have only been effective towards the opposite gender, so it's entirely possibly Xizor might actually get control of the Nightsisters.

 

Zann has the straight up military advantage, but people need to get realistic, the Black Sun rarely used straight up confrontation as their strategy and Zann showing up to bomb Coruscant would obviously drag the Empire into the fight because the Emperor wouldn't take kindly to his capital being bombarded, so Zann would be rather limited in this area.

 

Due to the fact that Xizor is significantly better at being underhanded than Zann, I think it's rather likely Zann will be defeated. Question is would Xizor choose to kill Zann in the end of it all, afterall Xizor considers himself to be a civilized being, and he can forgive mistakes, if the person he defeats shows he is also a civilized being with very good taste.

[Segastorm]

Well, I'd have to give this to Xizor, but the conditions of their battle do play a factor in it.

 

Now obviously, the Consortium was a lot more head on and militaristic with their tactics than Xizor, and depending on whether or not they're fighting in the empire's shadow, can be an advantage or disadvantage. In the Empire's shadow, Xizor is better off due to the fact that making yourself a known power in the eyes of an empire with a superweapon capable of blowing up entire planets is not really a bright idea. In their shadow, Xizor could just pull strings and stealth his way to victory, but from the desciption of the kaggath, it'd be just the consortium and the black sun going at it, no one else involved. Zann has a stealth fleet and powerful army, like I said, but with the intelligence gathering and subtlety of the black sun, that would hardly be an issue, as they can just bribe or blackmail an officer to turn the tide of the entire battle, so unless Zann knows exactly where Xizor is hiding at the start of this, Xizor would win in the end.

[Warren-Stride]

Question: The Galaxy

 

So they both exist during the same time period. Both during when the Empire is in power. However, the rules state no outside involvement. So, does the Empire exist while they're fighting, even if it can't choose one side or another?

[MasterMe]

Question: The Galaxy

 

So they both exist during the same time period. Both during when the Empire is in power. However, the rules state no outside involvement. So, does the Empire exist while they're fighting, even if it can't choose one side or another?

 

I don't make the rules, but I believe Beni said "no outside help." So I think that means no - the empire can't influence the battle/war.

[Warren-Stride]

While I tend to agree that Zann would win with his military, we seem to forget why people work for him.

 

Money.

 

Prince Xizor could eaily bribe and buy Zann's military. In the game Zann is originally from (Empire at War) he converts a lot of his troops (and opponents troops) though offers of money and profit. Typical in the underworld. However, Prince Xizor is much more rich, and infamous, than Zann. Just as Zann hired his people to fight for him, Xizor could easily hire them to work for his side.

 

So while Zann may have the larger military at the beginning of the battle, I have the feeling that very quickly he will lose a lot of troops to Xizor's fortune.

[MasterMe]

While I tend to agree that Zann would win with his military, we seem to forget why people work for him.

 

Money.

 

Prince Xizor could eaily bribe and buy Zann's military. In the game Zann is originally from (Empire at War) he converts a lot of his troops (and opponents troops) though offers of money and profit. Typical in the underworld. However, Prince Xizor is much more rich, and infamous, than Zann. Just as Zann hired his people to fight for him, Xizor could easily hire them to work for his side.

 

So while Zann may have the larger military at the beginning of the battle, I have the feeling that very quickly he will lose a lot of troops to Xizor's fortune.

 

Oooh good thinking.

 

If it ends up being a long war then your theory could end up being a serious factor.

[Aurbere]

I don't make the rules, but I believe Beni said "no outside help." So I think that means no - the empire can't influence the battle/war.

 

I'm assuming Palpatine would let them destroy each other and then destroy the surviving faction. If he so chooses, of course. And even if battle was secret (not a large war), Palpatine would know. Nothing occurs in the galaxy that he does not know, and if he does not know about it, it is because he does not care to know.

 

Back on topic. While Zann has the military advantage, this battle will most likely be held in the underworld. In this scenario, Xizor would most likely win. Even though Tyber has the Defilers (who have a thermal detonator for you ), Xizor is a major player in the underworld and has major assests that he can move around quickly. I see Xizor slowly picking Tyber's Empire apart.

 

But if it did come down to military battles, Tyber has the advantage.

[Warren-Stride]

Oooh good thinking.

 

If it ends up being a long war then your theory could end up being a serious factor.

 

The reason behind my question (Does the Empire exist while this war happens?) was to see if it would be a longer war. With the Empire existing but not involved, Zann could not attack Xizor's palace. However, if the Empire disappears and now the Prince is on Coruscant all alone... there's nothing stopping Zann from bombing Xizor's HQ right from the start.

[Beniboybling]

I think Xizor had stealth tech too, or if he didn't he'd probably acquire it fairly quickly. I also think the handicapping Xizor by saying he wouldn't have Guri doesn't make much sense, considering Guri was his bodyguard...

You make a good point. While Zann doesn't have a his bodyguard either, I don't think their prominent enough to be excluded.

 

IMPORTANT ANNOUNCEMENT! GURI AND URAI FEN ARE NO LONGER EXCLUDED FROM THE KAGGATH! THAT IS ALL.

 

In all honesty, Xizor's pheromones may have only been effective towards the opposite gender, so it's entirely possibly Xizor might actually get control of the Nightsisters.

Pheromones work on both sexes.

 

Question: The Galaxy

 

So they both exist during the same time period. Both during when the Empire is in power. However, the rules state no outside involvement. So, does the Empire exist while they're fighting, even if it can't choose one side or another?

Yes, to make sure the fight is as fair as possible, the Empire doesn't exist. As this would give an unfair advantage to whoever had the most favour with the Empire, and would lead to a debate as to who they would side with etc. don't want to get sidetracked. So basically the don't exist and can't intervene. But powers recongisably corrupted and under the control of the syndicates (if you can think of any) count as part of their power base. But seeing as neither party controls the Empire, the don't exist.

 

P.S. Sorry for the late response, was busy completing the BH storyline (which by the way was awesome!)

 

P.P.S This p.s' seem to be becoming a habit, oh well.

[Warren-Stride]

While I tend to agree that Zann would win with his military, we seem to forget why people work for him.

 

Money.

 

Prince Xizor could eaily bribe and buy Zann's military. In the game Zann is originally from (Empire at War) he converts a lot of his troops (and opponents troops) though offers of money and profit. Typical in the underworld. However, Prince Xizor is much more rich, and infamous, than Zann. Just as Zann hired his people to fight for him, Xizor could easily hire them to work for his side.

 

So while Zann may have the larger military at the beginning of the battle, I have the feeling that very quickly he will lose a lot of troops to Xizor's fortune.

 

Well, if the Empire doesn't exist, I may have taken out my own argument.

 

If the Empire is not on Coruscant, Zann would almost certainly bomb it and blow Xizor's Palace to bits. Althought that would not kill The Balck Sun, or probably Xizor, here's the tie-in:

 

If a symbol of Xizor's power and wealth (a palace rivaling that of the Emporer's... which apparently doesn't exist now anyways, so I guess Xizor's would be THE grandest palace on all of Corusacnt) was destroyed, that would probably get Zann's forces excited. They would be less likely to join Xizor after the physical embodiment of his wealth was destroyed. Therefor the militaries would stay about the same.

 

So, in short: No Empire = No defense (Xizor) ---> Zann + Big Ships = Destruction (Xizor) ----> Loss of Bribing Power (Xizor)

[MasterMe]

Well, as you know, I've got very little knowledge of these guys. I only know what I've read here. So here's my take:

 

In a prolonged war, Xizor wins. I think it all depends on how quickly Zann can fully utilize his superior army. Or perhaps Xizor could get impatient/cocky and take on Zann in open warfare? Do you guys think that Xizor would do that?

 

So if Xizor can make it a prolonged war, he wins (imo). I think this is his match to lose. Xizor = winner.

[MasterMe]

Well, if the Empire doesn't exist, I may have taken out my own argument.

 

If the Empire is not on Coruscant, Zann would almost certainly bomb it and blow Xizor's Palace to bits. Althought that would not kill The Balck Sun, or probably Xizor, here's the tie-in:

 

If a symbol of Xizor's power and wealth (a palace rivaling that of the Emporer's... which apparently doesn't exist now anyways, so I guess Xizor's would be THE grandest palace on all of Corusacnt) was destroyed, that would probably get Zann's forces excited. They would be less likely to join Xizor after the physical embodiment of his wealth was destroyed. Therefor the militaries would stay about the same.

 

So, in short: No Empire = No defense (Xizor) ---> Zann + Big Ships = Destruction (Xizor) ----> Loss of Bribing Power (Xizor)

 

Interestng assesment. I enjoy you logical points.

[Aurbere]

Well, as you know, I've got very little knowledge of these guys. I only know what I've read here. So here's my take:

 

In a prolonged war, Xizor wins. I think it all depends on how quickly Zann can fully utilize his superior army. Or perhaps Xizor could get impatient/cocky and take on Zann in open warfare? Do you guys think that Xizor would do that?

 

So if Xizor can make it a prolonged war, he wins (imo). I think this is his match to lose. Xizor = winner.

 

Xizor's a pretty smart guy, but then again, so is Zann. These guys are both very smart and will attempt to play to their strengths. Tyber Zann has the obvious military advantage, Xizor has the stealthy infiltration advantage.

 

The battle could swing both ways as each will attempt to play to their own strengths and exploit the others weaknesses. I would call this one a draw as the slightest movement by Tyber can draw Xizor into a battle, but Xizor can infiltrate Zann's Empire and destroy it from within. They could quite easily, destroy each other.