JediMasterSLC Posted November 17, 2012 Share Posted November 17, 2012 (edited) This is not a thread for discussing the 1.5 healing nerf. Durability is not the reason why watchman is unviable in ranked. It's because DPS need to be able to burst down a called-out target, and watchman is about sustained dmg over a longer period, much of which can be cleansed. I leveled as watchman, I think it's very fun to play, but like most sents and maras, I am always either focus (novare and voidstar) or combat (civil and huttball) for ranked. Let's try to have a productive discussion about how BW can make watchman viable in ranked without fundamentally changing the nature of the spec or making it OP in non-competitive PvP. I think this will be difficult. To start off I'll throw out a couple ideas off the top of my head. 1. Increasing merciless slash's base dmg or crit dmg. Doesn't make much intutitive sense that an aoe attack (focus sweep) can crit harder than watchman's strongest single target attack. This isn't to say it would be buffed to be able to hit as hard as sweep can currently hit. 2. Making one or both DoTs uncleanseable or have a chance to reject cleansing. This would be particularly advantageous as far as PvE concerns go because it would have no effect on PvE balance. It would ensure that watchman didn't become OP in regular warzones where many people aren't good at cleansing anyway. 3. Increasing the dmg buff or crit chance buff per stack of Juyo form. 4. Reducing the amount of max Juyo stacks from 5 but keeping the dmg buff and crit buff received from having max stacks the same as before (less time to wind up). For instance, 3 max stacks of Juyo, but each increases dmg by 3.3% and crit chance by 5%. This would hardly affect PvE at all. 5. Buff the talents that increase burn dmg and burn crit dmg. Edited November 17, 2012 by JediMasterSLC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NogueiraA Posted November 18, 2012 Share Posted November 18, 2012 Juyo Form has a lack of explanation... 5 stacks of juyo form and only "damage increased", but HOW MUCH increased? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JediMasterSLC Posted November 18, 2012 Author Share Posted November 18, 2012 Juyo Form has a lack of explanation... 5 stacks of juyo form and only "damage increased", but HOW MUCH increased? What are you talking about, everyone knows it's 2% dmg increase per stack. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aluvi Posted November 18, 2012 Share Posted November 18, 2012 Have you considered the idea that not every spec from every class is as viable as other specs in PvP, and maybe that is how it was designed? We have Rage, which is good in any pvp setting, and carnage, which is good for utility, primarily huttball. To make a comparison, Vengeance for juggs is not very viable compared to Rage for them. Hybrid immortal/veng is great for tanking in a WZ, but full immo is pretty lame. Both full immo and hybrid tank spec for juggs puts out shameful dps in warzones compared to hybrid sin tanks. Right now it is my understanding that anni is the highest sustained dps (although not by a lot, carnage is very close) in PvE, and it provides group heals. To me this says that it is a PvE spec. That being said, the one thing they need to do is give anni marauders a way to make their dots uncleansable, or punish those who cleanse them. This will not make them bursty in any way, but it will at least make them not have 30-50% of their damage mitigated by a GCD. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JediMasterSLC Posted November 18, 2012 Author Share Posted November 18, 2012 Have you considered the idea that not every spec from every class is as viable as other specs in PvP, and maybe that is how it was designed? We have Rage, which is good in any pvp setting, and carnage, which is good for utility, primarily huttball. To make a comparison, Vengeance for juggs is not very viable compared to Rage for them. Hybrid immortal/veng is great for tanking in a WZ, but full immo is pretty lame. Both full immo and hybrid tank spec for juggs puts out shameful dps in warzones compared to hybrid sin tanks. Right now it is my understanding that anni is the highest sustained dps (although not by a lot, carnage is very close) in PvE, and it provides group heals. To me this says that it is a PvE spec. That being said, the one thing they need to do is give anni marauders a way to make their dots uncleansable, or punish those who cleanse them. This will not make them bursty in any way, but it will at least make them not have 30-50% of their damage mitigated by a GCD. I get what you're saying here, I have considered this- it's possible that bioware designed the specs with the mindset of some being better for pve and some better for pvp. I hope that's not the case. I think the endgoal of class balance should be to make all specs more or less balanced in both pve and competitive pvp. Some classes can be better at certain warzones than others. Likewise, some classes can be better at certain fights than others in pve. But i think the concept of "this is the pve tree and this is the pvp tree" is a bad idea. Watchman is obviously not the only tree that is bad in competitive pvp: balance shadows (infiltration isn't too strong either), vigilance guardians, both dps scoundrel trees, tactics vanguards, and gunnery commandos (assault commandos still aren't too strong either, compared to vanguards). So i think it will be hard to achieve good class balance for pve and pvp, but I think it's something that should be strived for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheTitan_KoS Posted November 19, 2012 Share Posted November 19, 2012 I used to be watchman for months i love the spec i rly do, but BW are forcing us to ignore that spec. Dunno why they choose to nerf it this patch our survivability was the only thing that made the spec worth it. Now its pointless. We got worse dmg and we cant even survive as long as we could ( my healing is down roughly 40k per WZ compared to pre patch, thats extra 2 deaths per wz and a lot less time spent dpsing stuff which is my role suppousedly). So i finally switched over to Focus i hate it but i'm pretty much forced to play like this. The 2 are simply not comparable Focus is soooo much better. I rly dont want to play focus but i'd be a fool not to atm. One of the first things they need to do is reduce the focus cost of merciless slash. I really dont understand why it costs 5 focus when it deals less dmg to 1 target compared to sweap that hits 5 targets for a lot more dmg and costs 3 focus. Watchman usually has much bigger focus generation problems compared to the other trees Focus has zen (12 focus every 30 sec or less ftw), and force stasis - u need both for the stacks Combat has reduced cooldown on zealous strike and the extra focus from combat trance every 6 sec We get a 30% chance that we may get a focus point from our burns every 1.5 sec. So we need to generate more focus to use our "main" skill and we have harder time building that focus. The result is that we spend a lot more time using Strike compared to the other builds. Ye we got burns on top of that strike but still we are forced to use the worst skill a lot more than the other specs thats why we cant burst anything down not because our good hitting skills are bad but because we cant use them often enough. Even when the cooldown is over we often have to build up focus to be able to use them. If they dont want to change the focus costs they should make the skill worth that 5 focus the dmg type should be changed so it can take advantage of the burning talants we got (extra crit chance and extra crit dmg). Or they can give us some sort of crit chance bonus on skills if the target is burning ( hell even if its on Strike it'll be better than the current situation). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
capizm Posted November 27, 2012 Share Posted November 27, 2012 i wouldnt say worse damage....i do 300k to 500k total damage at times, in 400k ranage a ton so your wrong bout it being worst damage. and its still best tooled to live in wz.... they do seem to have axe to grind with the spec tho, as for pvp merc slash just isent on small enuff cd so you never get the full effect of it, while it mainly is a 4500 to 5300 hitter...either buff its damage or make it around 5kish with lower cd....but saying watchman is worst damage? just arent playing it right....can cleanse dots , but we can easily reapply them so.... and btw wm is king in one to one pvp so.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JustinxDuff Posted November 27, 2012 Share Posted November 27, 2012 i wouldnt say worse damage....i do 300k to 500k total damage at times, in 400k ranage a ton so your wrong bout it being worst damage. and its still best tooled to live in wz.... they do seem to have axe to grind with the spec tho, as for pvp merc slash just isent on small enuff cd so you never get the full effect of it, while it mainly is a 4500 to 5300 hitter...either buff its damage or make it around 5kish with lower cd....but saying watchman is worst damage? just arent playing it right....can cleanse dots , but we can easily reapply them so.... and btw wm is king in one to one pvp so.... Grammar and sentence structure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JediMasterSLC Posted November 27, 2012 Author Share Posted November 27, 2012 i wouldnt say worse damage....i do 300k to 500k total damage at times, in 400k ranage a ton so your wrong bout it being worst damage. and its still best tooled to live in wz.... they do seem to have axe to grind with the spec tho, as for pvp merc slash just isent on small enuff cd so you never get the full effect of it, while it mainly is a 4500 to 5300 hitter...either buff its damage or make it around 5kish with lower cd....but saying watchman is worst damage? just arent playing it right....can cleanse dots , but we can easily reapply them so.... and btw wm is king in one to one pvp so.... I second Bluntski's criticism. I have no idea what you're trying to say about merc slash. What do you mean "you never get the full effect", are you talking about being able to get 3 merciless stacks? Also, this thread is specifically about watchman in ranked warzones. Tell me, how's your experience with watchman in those? Also, your answer to dot cleansing is "reapply them"? Our dots have a cd you know lol. Seriously though that's not an answer. 1v1 strength is pretty irrelevant in ranked unless you're guarding the off node, which a stealther should be doing. Oh and don't tell me I'm not playing it right http://i985.photobucket.com/albums/ae335/slcowden6/recordwatchmandmg-heals_zps38a66b3e.png Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth_Dynas Posted November 28, 2012 Share Posted November 28, 2012 I'd like to see overload saber be cheaper to keep up and/or last a fair bit longer. That sucker is pretty expensive to keep up while fighting! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JediMasterSLC Posted November 28, 2012 Author Share Posted November 28, 2012 I'd like to see overload saber be cheaper to keep up and/or last a fair bit longer. That sucker is pretty expensive to keep up while fighting! Remember, we have have to buff watchman in a way that won't offend BWs PvE sensibilities. Changing the merciless slash mechanic to make it provide the same dps but more burst dmg might be something. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JustinxDuff Posted November 29, 2012 Share Posted November 29, 2012 Maybe have merc slash deal additional damage based upon how many stack of overload saber are on the target. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JediMasterSLC Posted November 30, 2012 Author Share Posted November 30, 2012 Maybe have merc slash deal additional damage based upon how many stack of overload saber are on the target. That would just increase dps, which isn't the problem in rwzs, and would not be considered by BW for pve reasons. Maybe put something in the skill tree that makes us less vulnerable to kiting/cc? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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