Best Build per Boss?

[Tibbel]

In regard to Takedown, 1.4 has changed the rotation for sniper below 30%, since Takedown now procs Followthrough. It essentially gives you one extra GCD slot per 18 seconds to spend energy, so the choice between 2 piece PvP and 4 piece PvE is no longer clear cut.

 

Oh, but it is.

 

PvP ("Battlemaster") 2-piece

In a 31/7/3 spec, with 858 tech bonus damage, Orbital Strike hits for ~2500 per tick. Getting an extra tick every 45 seconds is equivalent to {2500 damage / 45 seconds} = 55.6 DPS.

 

PvE ("Rakata") 4-piece

Reducing Takedown's energy cost by 7 means we can afford an extra 7/20ths of a Corrosive Dart every 12 seconds. In the same spec, with the same amount of tech bonus damage, full Corrosive Dart DoT deals ~2580 over its duration. {2580 Damage * 7/20ths / 12 seconds} = 72.3 DPS. This DPS boost only applies for 30% of the fight, though, so 72.3 DPS * 30% = 22.6 DPS.

 

Still looks pretty clear cut, at least for MM.

 

The only time the PvE 4-piece looks appealing is when the sub-30% phase is twice as important as the rest of the fight. In that case, we'd give up -33 DPS over the whole fight in exchange for +17 DPS in the final burn phase. (Also keep in mind that an extra Orbital Strike tick can be more easily concentrated to be stacked with adrenals/relics, whereas an extra Corrosive Dart every ~35 seconds is a bit more spread out -- so if burst DPS in the last phase is really important, the OS benefit might still be the best choice.)

Edited November 27, 2012 by Tibbel

[Fedenip]

Hi Tibbel, i think your numbers are just wrong, first i think thinking about dps is not a good idea to begin your calcul, after i don't know if the takedown is the same shot for you and for me, but me my takedown take 15 energy without PvE set and it's written 3299-3920 in takedown damage (and 6352 for the OS) full buffed with a rakata stim

 

I try to do a better calcul to comparate

(i take my stats in SS/MM spec for this example, and i put 3 cunning mod and so no aim mod to have an imparrial result)

-38.79% range critical chance (and so 61.21% range not critical chance)

-37.61% tech critical chance (and so 62.39% tech not critical chance)

-76.28% critical multiplier

 

1/ So 1st, we calculate the average damage of the two skills :

-Takedown :

(3299+3920)/2*38.79%*1.7628+(3299+3920)/2*61.21%

= 4677.52

-1 tick of the Orbital Strike :

6352*37.61%*1.7628+6352*62.39%/3

= 2724.77

 

2/ In 2nd, i think it's better to reason about DPE (damage per energy) and not about DPS (damage per second)

And so we will take a simple example on 5min20, it's a good time i think

 

We can use :

-Orbital Strike 7 times (i will take 7.11 for the calcul to be generous ^^) in 320sec (with 45sec of CD in SS/MM spec, it's 60sec for other spec) :

320/45 = 7.1111...

 

-Takedown 8 times in 320sec (12 sec of CD 30% of the fight)

320X30%/12 = 8

 

3/ In 3rd we can comparate the 2 bonus set :

 

-Set PvE, 4pieces :

Energy coast for 8 takedowns (8 energies for one) and for 7.11 one tick more of Orbital Strike, we just take 1 tick because the 3 others ticks are here with the PvE set too (7.5 energies for that tick (30 energies / 4 ticks)) :

 

8*8+7.11*7.5 = 117.325 energies

 

Damage dealth with that 8 takedowns (4677.52 damage for one) and for 7.11 no tick more Orbital Strike (2724.77 damage for that tick for one)

8*4677.52+0*7.11*2724.77 = 37420.16 damages

 

-Set PvP, 2 pieces :

Energy coast for 8 takedowns (15 energy for one) and for 7.11 one tick more of Orbital Strike (7.5 energies for that tick)

8*15+7.11*7.5 = 173.325 energies

 

Damage dealth with that 8 takedowns (4677.52 damage for one) and for 7.11 one tick more Orbital Strike (2724.77 damage for that tick for one)

8*4677.52+1*7.11*2724.77 = 56793.27 damages

 

4/ And to finish, we just have to compare if we prefer :

37420.16 damages for 117.325 energies : 37420.16 / 117.325 = 318.94 DPE

or

56793.27 damages for 173.325 energies : 56793.27 / 173.325 = 327.67 DPE

 

And so, to conclude, we can see it's approximatly the same DPE, we could say PvP Set is a little bit better for the MM/SS spec, it would be a big mistake, because in that spec, like said NotRonin, the Takedown activate our Followthrough whitch is the best shot of the MM/SS spec and i did this test with 3 cunning mods instead of my 3 aim mods whitch up me too, and for sure with that 3 aim mods, the Orbital Strike is weaker.

 

And we just speak for the MM/SS with the Orbital strike with 45 sec of CD and not 60 sec you can do the same calcul with 60 sec of CD for other spec (with others bonus of others spec for sure), but i think you already know the result

 

Akopra Nekrat

 

PS : sorry for this long and boring math lesson ^_^

Edited November 27, 2012 by Fedenip

[Tibbel]

I had quite a bit of trouble following your methodology, but I do understand it now, I think. One thing I don't understand is why you think it makes sense to consider the full cost of Takedown, but then only consider the marginal damage of OS.

 

In any case, the damage of Takedown doesn't matter; as a MM sniper, we're going to use it every 12 seconds whether it costs full energy or not. What really matters is what we get to do with the extra 7 energy that we save every 12 seconds (and whether that damage can outpace the extra ~2500 damage we get from an extra OS tick every 45s).

 

In my previous post, I assumed that we're already keeping the following abilities on cooldown:

• Followthrough
  
• Takedown
  
• Series of Shots
  
• Ambush
  
• Orbital Strike

 

So abilities of which we might gain more uses are:

• Corrosive Dart
  
• Explosive Probe
  
• Snipe
  
• Rifle Shot

 

The best option on the list, in terms of both DPE and DPCT, is Corrosive Dart -- and saving the 7 energy every 12 seconds means we get to use (7/20ths)/12s more Corrosive Darts per second during that execute range, in competition with 1/45s more Orbital Strike ticks per second throughout the whole fight.

 

This doesn't take into account the damage of Rifle Shots that we're replacing by shooting more Corrosive Darts -- so in actuality, it comes out even more in favor of the PvP bonus. If we do take that into account (and assume Rifle Shot hits for 640 average damage), then the 4pc PvE nets 17.0 DPS over a 520s fight, and the 2pc PvP nets 55.6 DPS (using my previous damage numbers).

Edited November 27, 2012 by Tibbel

[Fedenip]

Don't unlike the 56 energies between the 2 sets in my example, so you can spend 56 energies to just do 19k damages (+3 or +4 rifle shots like you say for sure) and i think it's clear, with that 56 energies we have to do more than 20k damages when we use just shots whitch spend energy but yes if we count that, there is not a big difference (just in the MM/SS spec) between that 2 bonus sets, you're right

 

And so my video of the Firebrand and Stormcaller 8Nightmare (1k8 dps) is download, i put it here (the TORParse is in the description of the video =) )

 

 

I put the video of Colonel Vorgath 8Nightmare (1k6 dps) on youtube for this evening too

Edited November 27, 2012 by Fedenip

[NotRonin]

Hi Tibbel, welcome back!!

 

Operations has changed quite a bit from KP and EV, both of which are mostly 'kill that one boss'. With EC and TFB, there are more trash adds, and in NiM EC you have to start worrying about how to take them down. This is why I say it's not clear which one is better anymore, since orbital strike may not be used on cooldown.

 

TFB 1st boss : You have to save the orbital strike for the adds, and the fourth tick is often wasted (unless the boss is nearby). The only time you'll get nice numbers with the 2 piece PvP bonus is when you're the only one killing the adds, which shouldn't be happening.

TFB 2nd boss : After Heirad, it is very, very hard to get Orbital strike to land all 4 ticks on only one boss.

TFB 3rd boss : You get to use takedown quite a lot on the cores and adds

TFB 4th Boss : I will only do this fight as Leth/Eng 0/18/23 with the 2 set PvP bonus. I mean, you don't often get a chance to see the '16+K' number popping up on your screen :-P

TFB 5th Boss : 1st phase, you don't want too much burst, and you have to take out the adds. Second phase will have lots of opportunities for takedown. Since my guild has not reach this point in HM yet, so maybe the mechanics will be completely different from story mode.

 

While we all strife to become better, playstyle still matters. Once you're talking about a difference less than 20 dps, it becomes a bit pedantic.

[Fedenip]

My video of Colonel Vorgath is download, here you are =)

 

[Tibbel]

Hi Tibbel, welcome back!!

Why thank you, my fellow long-range laser launcher.

 

With EC and TFB, there are more trash adds, and in NiM EC you have to start worrying about how to take them down. This is why I say it's not clear which one is better anymore, since orbital strike may not be used on cooldown.

 

TFB 1st boss : You have to save the orbital strike for the adds, and the fourth tick is often wasted (unless the boss is nearby). The only time you'll get nice numbers with the 2 piece PvP bonus is when you're the only one killing the adds, which shouldn't be happening.

TFB 2nd boss : After Heirad, it is very, very hard to get Orbital strike to land all 4 ticks on only one boss.

TFB 3rd boss : You get to use takedown quite a lot on the cores and adds

TFB 4th Boss : I will only do this fight as Leth/Eng 0/18/23 with the 2 set PvP bonus. I mean, you don't often get a chance to see the '16+K' number popping up on your screen :-P

TFB 5th Boss : 1st phase, you don't want too much burst, and you have to take out the adds. Second phase will have lots of opportunities for takedown. Since my guild has not reach this point in HM yet, so maybe the mechanics will be completely different from story mode.

These are fair points.

 

If the total uses of OS (or the number of times its 4th tick will hit) is reduced in a fight, the value of the 2pc PvP set bonus is reduced proportionally. Similarly, if Takedown is usable over more than 30% of the fight, the value of the 4pc PvE set bonus will increase proportionally -- of course, if that time includes periods where we will likely cap on energy (such as running between platforms, being incapacitated for a short duration, etc), then the value of saving energy is diminished.

 

You're right that it's important to consider for each boss. In my opinion, the 2pc PvP bonus is more often more beneficial than the 4pc PvE, in general.

 

While we all strife to become better, playstyle still matters. Once you're talking about a difference less than 20 dps, it becomes a bit pedantic.

 

Yeah, pretty much. Unless you're a finely-tuned DPS machine, your execution and RNG luck are likely to make a bigger difference than which set bonus you use.

Edited November 27, 2012 by Tibbel

[Mrog]

Great discussion. I think I will stick with the 2 piece PvP also from the big burst factor is better than spread dps all things being equal.

 

With regard to the Aim versus Cunning, it seems the minimal improvement of MM having some Aim over Cunning seems very situational and inflexible. It certainly does not translate over to the other two builds. In short, to me it seems the cost of having Aim mods mixed with your Cunning is way to high for the minimal benfit you would get as a marksman build. I am going to stick with Cunning to allow me the flexibility to swap specs as necessary. So far, I am liking the swap as necessary. Start lethality, swapping to Marksman part way through does not necessariy significantly improve performance due to how well they are balanced, but having the right tools for the situation can make encounters feel more natural, easier, and more enjoyable. It also helps with daily questing and PvP.

Edited November 28, 2012 by Mrog

[Fedenip]

Could you please post a you tube link of your 5 min parse with 2/16/23? Im Curious

 

I did a better parse this morning with that spec (better than my 2100 in my first video) 2176, here you are =)

 

[CorrVondell]

Akopra, why do you have 112,97% Accuracy??? o0

 

btw...your DPS Rate is for me far far away... maybe i´ve got a big mistake in my rotation or in my equip.

Yes i know you play a MM but even when you play lethality i don´t reach the 2k on the dummy

[CJNJ]

Missed reading these conversations

[Fedenip]

Akopra, why do you have 112,97% Accuracy??? o0

 

I have 102.97% in MM/SS spec (i have the +3% acuracy skill for sure) and so 99.97% in 2/16/23 spec =)

 

And so my new log of the Asation 8HM of this evening

 

http://www.torparse.com/a/59447

 

I did the 2 first bosses with 2/16/23 spec, and the 3 last with 31/5/5, and i must say yes the 2 first bosses, the lethality or hybrid spec are very impressed, i did 2425 on the writing horror (without dying we were 2 guys for aoe this time) the 3rd jealous male pop at 6-7% of the boss ^^

And i was at 2089 dps when i die on the good try of the Dread Guards snif ^^ i was sleeping when Kel'Sara wants my death in P3 hihi, shame on me =P

 

PS : my group wants i do Kephess the Undying with 2/16/23 spec without bubbles in P1 the next week, i'll make the result on him in one week so

Edited November 29, 2012 by Fedenip

[NotRonin]

For the Dreadguard fight, I usually stop all AoEing unless I'm certain that it won't spill over to another boss, since damaging other bosses gives them a buff. I notice that in the parse, Orbital strike and Corrosive Grenade is sometime hitting everyone. Doesn't that cause issues for the healer and tanks? Is there a damage threshold? Or is the damage buff gradual? Not exactly sure on the mechanics of the 'damage increase' . Edited December 1, 2012 by NotRonin
correction

[adezero]

For the Dreadguard fight, I usually stop all AoEing unless I'm certain that it will be spill over to another boss, since damaging other bosses gives them a buff. I notice that in the parse, Orbital strike and Corrosive Grenade is sometime hitting everyone. Doesn't that cause issues for the healer and tanks? Is there a damage threshold? Or is the damage buff gradual? Not exactly sure on the mechanics of the 'damage increase' .

 

how dare you sacrifice personal dps for the good of the raid! the only thing that mattters is your personal DEEPS!

[CorrVondell]

At the Next ID of Asa HC i will try the Combination of 2 PVE and 2 PVP Sets to have a look about more Dps coming from the Orbital Strike even when i'm skilled as Lethality!!!

 

Maybe you can give me a advice which Ear, Implant and Relict i shall choose for these Combination?!

[crazyBE]

Another sab/df user here.

 

Haven't tried going full df yet but my current spec seems fine to me.

Below are some logs of our 16 man tfb hm run. We've only downed 1st and 2nd boss up until now.

 

1st Boss with another 2 SS gunslingers.

http://swtor.askmrrobot.com/combatlog/11800e70-3367-44fd-9ab4-db77092b0bc7/overview#d=0,f=9,b=1

 

2nd Boss today. (died during the fight as well) Click attempt 4

http://swtor.askmrrobot.com/combatlog/8338e6a6-70fc-474f-9d69-ce89ee6e861c/overview#d=0,f=79,b=1

 

P.s. Akopra please post your rotation as SS, as I'm also very impressed by your skill with the spec.

 

A youtube video of parsing on a combat dummy was posted. Just watch that

[Fedenip]

Hi there, just to say, i create a little guide for gunslinger/sniper because some people want i do that but in french, so if someone wants translate in english that, i give the link of this french thread

 

http://www.swtor.com/fr/community/showthread.php?t=565492

 

Good luck if you try to translate hihi

[CrixusBoR]

Hi there, just to say, i create a little guide for gunslinger/sniper because some people want i do that but in french, so if someone wants translate in english that, i give the link of this french thread

 

http://www.swtor.com/fr/community/showthread.php?t=565492

 

Good luck if you try to translate hihi

 

Google translate works fine. nice work

[CorrVondell]

Akropa GZ to your 2.4k DPS at Asa Hc. 1st Boss. With my near Gear SW Monitor Parse me 1.9 K DPS. But in the combatlog at torparse it was only 1738 DPS

[Fedenip]

Akropa GZ to your 2.4k DPS at Asa Hc. 1st Boss. With my near Gear SW Monitor Parse me 1.9 K DPS. But in the combatlog at torparse it was only 1738 DPS

 

Thank you, but on this boss the personal dps depends of your dps group, 1st, if you are just 1 or 2 for aoe, it's easier to do a good parse, and the same if the 3rd or 4th jealous male pop at the end of the life of the boss (because the fight finish 20-25sec after the death of the boss in every case, so if you can kill the pack of adds just after, it's good for a good personal parse) but it's not very important, i just was lucky to have the 3rd jealous male at the end, and just one guy who aoe with me

 

And so your 1k7 or 1k9 is perhaps very good too, it depends of many of that things i think =)

Edited December 5, 2012 by Fedenip

[CorrVondell]

You're right in some Points ,)

 

We are too many RDD at the Adds or the Male.

Further we made at Bosslife 25% a Damagestop for waiting the spwan of the male.

In my chase it was more than 6-10 Seconds were i was waiting^^

 

http://www.torparse.com/a/64938

 

Maybe i selected the wrong relics and/or implantates/ear to make more DPS.

 

But the PVP Set rules and i won't miss it anymore

Edited December 5, 2012 by CorrVondell

[Fedenip]

Yes i agree, if we are alone for aoe, this 1st boss of Asation HM is perhaps one of the bosses where the PvP set for the orbital strike is good (if you are 2 or 3 for aoe, the 4th and last tick don't touch anything =P)

 

And yes for my 2k4 we see, the boss die at 21:11:37 (after 245sec) and the end of the fight is at 21:12:07 (30sec after, after 275sec of fight) but between 21:11:37 and 21:11:53, i finish the jealous male and the pack of adds =)

In your log we see well the boss die at 23:49:20 (after 309 sec) and the end of the fight is at 23:49:50 (30 sec after too, after 339sec) and so you don't have a jealous male and a pack of adds in that 30 sec for you, so it's normal, don't worry for your 1k7, it's good =)

Edited December 5, 2012 by Fedenip

[Fedenip]

PS : my group wants i do Kephess the Undying with 2/16/23 spec without bubbles in P1 the next week, i'll make the result on him in one week so

 

A promise is a promise, so here you are, my little 3k4 of this evening in that spec

 

http://www.torparse.com/a/66031

Edited December 6, 2012 by Fedenip

[NotRonin]

A promise is a promise, so here you are, my little 3k4 of this evening in that spec

 

http://www.torparse.com/a/66031

 

Very good parse!! But if you keep posting these kind of numbers, sniper/gunslinger is going to get seriously nerfed. >_<

[tomofoureleven]

My game bug when i try to download the english version

 

And no, you don't smoke hihi, i make 3 aim mod (53aim / 32endurance / 41power for the 61 ones) to have approximatly 85% cunning for 15% aim, but it's very specifical for MM/SS spec, because every shots take the stat "ranged" and not "techno" without the "Orbital Strike"/"XS Freighter Flyby"

 

It might be easier (and cheaper) if instead of swapping mods to aim evertime you went marksmen, you instead used an Exotech Aim stim