An in-depth look at: The Mandalorian Wars

[Aurbere]

This sound likes a sound course of action, why weren't you on the Jedi Council! What would you say to Jedi strike teams (similar to SWTOR) striking out at key Mandalorian targets so a Republic victory could progress more smoothly? I feel that in such a format, and detached from the frenzy of full scale war (as well as not being in a position of command, they would simply have objectives to complete) and would prevent fall to the dark side. And didn't they do this in the Clone Wars? How many episodes are about Jedi teams taking out targets, performing rescue missions etc. rather than full scale war?

 

As for your first statement however, partly true. Revan's actions did lead him close to the darkside. But it was Malachor and meeting the Emperor that gave the final push. If these events were prevented, his fall would never have happened. In fact I think the main reason for his fall was the True Sith threat, like Kreia said he never 'fell', but felt it was necessary to become a Dark Lord to reforge the Republic (and he was brainwashed by the Emperor - people seem to forget this). If he had never discovered the True Sith, he would have no reason to fall to the dark side, because that would mean turning against the Republic, and Revan would not do that without good reason.

 

The path of war is a winding path. If the Mandalorians had ahold of any space stations or critical installations I would send a strike team. The strike team would consist of a small group of Republic commandos and one Jedi. Depending on the level of defense in place, of course, but that would be preferred.

 

As to Revan, I disagree with you on only a few points. Malachor cemented Revan's fall to the Dark Side. The Emperor brainwahed him to do his bidding, but I believe Revan managed to shake free from his control either through his own will or the power of the Star Forge. I don't think it was necessary for Revan to fall to the Dark Side to save the Republic.

 

And remember that you are taking the word of a pathological liar. I think you would agree with me on that part. I do understand that Kreia was a wise person, but her views are a bit out there. Nevertheless, I do credit her for her achievements, but I don't really trust what she says. No offense to you and your opinion of her of course.

[Aurbere]

That's very interesting.

 

However Option 3 (I think) would have gone better then you say. If the Jedi had joined the war (I mean join mostly as generals) then everything would've been fine. There wouldn't have been an opportunity for people (like Revan) to fall to the darkside. because the moment Revan did something remotely bad, then the Council would have been on top of him and would have prevented any fall.

 

This is true, but Option 3 referred to the Jedi acting as soldiers. However, the wisdom of the Jedi and their adherence to the Light would have allowed for different strategies and could have prevented Revan from falling. But of course it probably wouldn't have.

 

Look at it this way. Jedi are receptive of the emotions of those around them. If the Jedi fought on the front lines, they would feel a wave of intense emotion. They would have felt the bloodlust of the Mandalorian armies. Only the wisest and most adhered to the Jedi way could resist these emotions. The Jedi in training or the Jedi who have not yet mastered their emotions would be enveloped into the chaos, consumed by the bloodlust that they feel from the Mandalorians.

 

This is why I have said that they should have joined in advisory and defensive capacity.

[MasterMe]

This is true, but Option 3 referred to the Jedi acting as soldiers. However, the wisdom of the Jedi and their adherence to the Light would have allowed for different strategies and could have prevented Revan from falling. But of course it probably wouldn't have.

 

Look at it this way. Jedi are receptive of the emotions of those around them. If the Jedi fought on the front lines, they would feel a wave of intense emotion. They would have felt the bloodlust of the Mandalorian armies. Only the wisest and most adhered to the Jedi way could resist these emotions. The Jedi in training or the Jedi who have not yet mastered their emotions would be enveloped into the chaos, consumed by the bloodlust that they feel from the Mandalorians.

 

This is why I have said that they should have joined in advisory and defensive capacity.

 

That's a very good point. But haven't the Jedi fought other wars without falling to the emotions around them?

 

But I agree, the Jedi should have entered the war as generals and advisors, with a few Jedi sprinkled in there to provide leadership on the front lines (only the wiser Jedi would do this). Would you agree that this is likely the best course of action?

 

Yes, it's possible that Revan would still turn to the darkside (but very unlikely), but Revan wouldn't be able to turn all his followers to the darkside because he wouldn't have any followers. If anyone fell to the darkside, it would have been a few individuals, no entire armies. Don't forget the soldiers. They would'nt have turned either because of the support of the Jedi.

[mefit]

That's very interesting.

 

However Option 3 (I think) would have gone better then you say. If the Jedi had joined the war (I mean join mostly as generals) then everything would've been fine. There wouldn't have been an opportunity for people (like Revan) to fall to the darkside. because the moment Revan did something remotely bad, then the Council would have been on top of him and would have prevented any fall.

 

Not to argue so please do not take offense in MY OPINION and what I know .

 

1 Revan was on his way to the Darkside when he decided to disobey the Jedi Council and go to war.

2 The Jedi Council was aware of Revan Falling , along with Malek and thought of Meetra + the other Jedi who follow Revan . In Lore they wanted to try them and takeaway their ability to use the force , but at the time of the War they what I think knew if they got involved they would be seen as Traitors of the Republic . Because their only way they could tried Revan, Malek , Meetra , or the others would have been by (A) by getting them by Force (B) Hoping they would come back . Saddly only Meetra is a Loyal Person in this story , as she remained Loyal to Revan and Loyal to the Jedi .

 

There was no way they could have stopped him from falling or the others and by the time of his Fall which was when largely he gained control over the Republic Navy/Army , he was at the point of coming into his Power and skill . When the War ended Revan was feared by the Jedi and they sent in a group to try to cetch him but his loss was only because his Apprentice was doing what Sith do when your Master is distracted............Gaining control of the Situation and taking the Master Roll by killing the Master , Revan had the Jedi well controlled in that fight and he would have likely won and killed his future childs mother .

Again Fate was that Malek had to betray Revan , and the SithCode demanded it .

Now I would think if it wasn't for Bastila Raven would have without a Doubt died on his flag ship .

Again Fate .

 

Back on my Reply to you , Revan would have been shown as a betrayed hero by the Jedi Council if they tried anyway to get him before that war had ended . Then you would have likely seen a Hunt for Jedi for that Action , because all teh Republic seen was Revan and friends helping the Republic Defeat its Enemies and there for a Hero !

The Republic was blinded by the War to see Revan was doing immoral actions and was likely because of the Force and how it works going to become a DarkJedi and do what DarkJedi do !

[Beniboybling]

As to Revan, I disagree with you on only a few points. Malachor cemented Revan's fall to the Dark Side. The Emperor brainwashed him to do his bidding, but I believe Revan managed to shake free from his control either through his own will or the power of the Star Forge. I don't think it was necessary for Revan to fall to the Dark Side to save the Republic.

 

And remember that you are taking the word of a pathological liar. I think you would agree with me on that part. I do understand that Kreia was a wise person, but her views are a bit out there. Nevertheless, I do credit her for her achievements, but I don't really trust what she says. No offense to you and your opinion of her of course.

You dare... (I kid, sort of - heck who am I kidding. DIE!)

 

I think what people need to realise though, it that while Kreia was a manipulating witch (or as Atton prefers, old scow ) she was capable of telling the truth, and didn't lie for the sake of lying, or because she had a mental disorder (she's not GLaDOS people). She only told lies to further her own agenda. We can categorize what she says into 3 sections: Lies and Manipulations, Cryptic Jedi Speak, Her Beliefs. What she says here slots into the 'Her Beliefs' section, as does all the other stuff she tells you about the Insidious Force, the True Sith and compassion etcera. This stuff is as truth as truth can get. But its subjective, so we can't say for sure. All we know is that Kreia was the most well-versed in the subject of Revan - arguably nobody new about his past better, not even Bastila. No doubt she came to this decision when investigating his past, so we can only assume she found some evidence to support this. But then again, it could have just been an attempt to prove that she was right and the Jedi were wrong, maybe she's just in denial. We can't say for sure (we can say she believes this to be true, she's not lying it that sense)

 

But what Kreia says is a springboard, by looking at the facts we can see logic and truth in her argument. You may remember in KOTOR 2 (you may never have got this dialogue), but Mical 'cracks it' if you like. He realises that Revan's conquest was not your run of the mill invasion, but a preservation, as if he was preparing for an invasion. His love for the Republic is also another factor. But we can't say what was going on in his head for sure, or how corrupted by the dark side he had become. And to be honest, the opinion that Revan never 'fell' to the dark side is an opinion, its purely subjective and can't really be backed up by facts, even if Revan believed this was true, you could argue against him, you can just accept it or reject it. SHE WASN'T LYING THOUGH! *tears out hair* Why does no one believe her? *starts sobbing*

 

Wow, my threads are always looong... (I spend more time here than playing the game) I'm not a ranter people, just got a lot to say.

 

EDIT: I forgot to mention this, too caught up in my rage. But lets say none of the events surrounding Malachor, the Emperor never happened. But the Mandalorian Wars did and Revan was involved and did the same things. Why would he turn to the dark side? (not rhetorical, I'm genuinely interested) I can't think of a reason he would embrace the Sith and war against the Republic, with no other Sith to turn him.

 

EDIT AGAIN: I think Malak is the real problem here, not Revan.

Edited November 9, 2012 by Beniboybling

[Rayla_Felana]

Has it worked? He hasn't conquered the galaxy yet.

 

But I definately feel that it mattered.

Just imagine if the Mandos had won their war

or if Darth Revan had won the Jedi Civil War

 

Wouldn't that change a lot?

 

The Mandalorians never would have really won the war eventually, regardless of Jedi interference, anyone who really knows what happened in the war knows that Republic recruitment grew four times it's previous number due to the Jedi's entrance into the war, thousands every day signed up for the Republic Army, hope had been restored, but I think It would've happened anyway because the Jedi would have eventually interfered regardless and once the Mandalorians started to gain in the mid-rim, people wouldn't jsut sit around to get wiped out, so the desolation that actually took place between the two wars, would have happened anyway, due to the worlds that would've burned in their place.

 

The Mandalorians were never meant to win the war, they were meant to test Republic strength, that was it, job done regardless, the Jedi Civil War and following Dark Wars were just icing on the cake for the Sith, the damage would've been done and the strength of the Republic would've been seen anyway.

[mefit]

EDIT: I forgot to mention this, too caught up in my rage. But lets say none of the events surrounding Malachor, the Emperor never happened. But the Mandalorian Wars did and Revan was involved and did the same things. Why would he turn to the dark side? (not rhetorical, I'm genuinely interested) I can't think of a reason he would embrace the Sith and war against the Republic, with no other Sith to turn him.

 

EDIT AGAIN: I think Malak is the real problem here, not Revan.

 

Revan's fall was that of his immoral decisions , and the later of power . He eventually believe that he and only he could keep the Republic Safe from its enemies , this is even before he went looking for the Emperor .

The Jedi Code is there to remind Jedi how easy it is to fall to the Darkside , not just a chant !

 

Malek was dragged to the Darkside by following Revan much like the other Jedi who followed him , Meetra was bond by loyalty to the Jedi as much to her friend Revan . In the end she was no evil by her actions nor was it her plan to do it . She obeied a Command and gave a Command , but she did feel the effects of her action but it did not taint her to the darkside . Everyone else Jedi wise that followed him were blind to the cause and were at that point willing to take Revan on anything he said . Kinda like Blind Fanboism.

 

In the end Revan was full of emotion and not willing to listen to the Jedi more wiser than himself , and in his blind emotion cause billions to die , almost the end of the Jedi , and corrupted many of inocents . His fall was going to happen no matter because he was unable to control his emotions much like Anakin . Hence why he is stronger as a Sith then he ever was as a Jedi .

[Beniboybling]

Revan's fall was that of his immoral decisions , and the later of power . He eventually believe that he and only he could keep the Republic Safe from its enemies , this is even before he went looking for the Emperor .

The Jedi Code is there to remind Jedi how easy it is to fall to the Darkside , not just a chant !

 

Malek was dragged to the Darkside by following Revan much like the other Jedi who followed him , Meetra was bond by loyalty to the Jedi as much to her friend Revan . In the end she was no evil by her actions nor was it her plan to do it . She obeied a Command and gave a Command , but she did feel the effects of her action but it did not taint her to the darkside . Everyone else Jedi wise that followed him were blind to the cause and were at that point willing to take Revan on anything he said . Kinda like Blind Fanboism.

 

In the end Revan was full of emotion and not willing to listen to the Jedi more wiser than himself , and in his blind emotion cause billions to die , almost the end of the Jedi , and corrupted many of inocents . His fall was going to happen no matter because he was unable to control his emotions much like Anakin . Hence why he is stronger as a Sith then he ever was as a Jedi .

Hmmmm, I'm still not convinced. I see now the possibility of Revan falling to the dark side and sparking a Civil War simply because he believed the Republic needed to be stronger to face any threat - not the true sith specifically.

 

But if the Council were involved and the Jedi were shown to be strong, would this have ever happened?

[Maaruin]

That's true. We don't know what would have happened. But like Rayla said, the Emperor would have come in eventually.

 

The way I see it, there are many different ways the war could have gone down.

 

1. What did happen

2. The Jedi don't join the war at all

3. The Jedi join the war when things get really bad

4. The Jedi join the war right away

 

Option 1 led to the Jedi Civil War. Option 2 would lead to the Republic being destroyed. Option 3 would lead to the Jedi Civil War and the Republic being destroyed. Option 4 leads to the Jedi Civil War and the Republic being destroyed. But the outcome doesn't matter as the Emperor would have attacked eventually. What matters about these outcomes is who the Emperor would fight.

 

Option 1 is what we have now in TOR. Option 2 the Emperor takes control from Mandalore, with or without conflict. Option 3 and 4 the Emperor fights the "Sith" and the Star Forge.

 

EDIT: But these are only a few outcomes and paths that could have been taken.

 

I disagree with you on option two. The Republic wouldn't have been destroyed. The Core Worlds are pretty tough, I doubt the Mandalorians would have conquered them. At some point the Republic would have stopped them.

If the Sith joined the war then, the real threat would be revealed and the Empire would have to fight the Jedi Order at full might.

[MasterMe]

Not to argue so please do not take offense in MY OPINION and what I know .

 

1 Revan was on his way to the Darkside when he decided to disobey the Jedi Council and go to war.

2 The Jedi Council was aware of Revan Falling , along with Malek and thought of Meetra + the other Jedi who follow Revan . In Lore they wanted to try them and takeaway their ability to use the force , but at the time of the War they what I think knew if they got involved they would be seen as Traitors of the Republic . Because their only way they could tried Revan, Malek , Meetra , or the others would have been by (A) by getting them by Force (B) Hoping they would come back . Saddly only Meetra is a Loyal Person in this story , as she remained Loyal to Revan and Loyal to the Jedi .

 

There was no way they could have stopped him from falling or the others and by the time of his Fall which was when largely he gained control over the Republic Navy/Army , he was at the point of coming into his Power and skill . When the War ended Revan was feared by the Jedi and they sent in a group to try to cetch him but his loss was only because his Apprentice was doing what Sith do when your Master is distracted............Gaining control of the Situation and taking the Master Roll by killing the Master , Revan had the Jedi well controlled in that fight and he would have likely won and killed his future childs mother .

Again Fate was that Malek had to betray Revan , and the SithCode demanded it .

Now I would think if it wasn't for Bastila Raven would have without a Doubt died on his flag ship .

Again Fate .

 

Back on my Reply to you , Revan would have been shown as a betrayed hero by the Jedi Council if they tried anyway to get him before that war had ended . Then you would have likely seen a Hunt for Jedi for that Action , because all teh Republic seen was Revan and friends helping the Republic Defeat its Enemies and there for a Hero !

The Republic was blinded by the War to see Revan was doing immoral actions and was likely because of the Force and how it works going to become a DarkJedi and do what DarkJedi do !

 

Sorry but Revan was NOT on his way to the darkside when he joined the war. It was during the war that he was twisted.

[Aurbere]

That's a very good point. But haven't the Jedi fought other wars without falling to the emotions around them?

 

But I agree, the Jedi should have entered the war as generals and advisors, with a few Jedi sprinkled in there to provide leadership on the front lines (only the wiser Jedi would do this). Would you agree that this is likely the best course of action?

 

Yes, it's possible that Revan would still turn to the darkside (but very unlikely), but Revan wouldn't be able to turn all his followers to the darkside because he wouldn't have any followers. If anyone fell to the darkside, it would have been a few individuals, no entire armies. Don't forget the soldiers. They would'nt have turned either because of the support of the Jedi.

 

Well let's look at the other wars.

 

Wars with the Sith- The Jedi fight the Sith in the Force, Light versus Dark. In this case, the Jedi resist the darkness that the Sith unleash through their Jedi training. The Jedi of the Old Republic were trained to fight the Sith and the Darkness they unleash. The emotions of the Mandalorians are different as it is a lust for battle. Fighting the Mandalorians gives in to that lust for battle and allowed the Jedi to "receive" the Mandalorians emotions better, corrupting them.

 

Wars with droids- Droids don't have thoughts that Jedi pick up on, hence no Jedi falling from wars with droids, unless a Sith intervenes.

 

Wars with mercs- Specifically the Stark Hyperspace War. The enemy the Jedi fought were really just mercs. Hired guns, I believe. To them it was just a job. If they did have any aggressive emotions, the Jedi of this time were trained to master their own emotions and suppress them.

 

The Mandalorian Wars taught the Jedi to get a better grip on their emotions, to control them better to prevent another Jedi Civil War.

 

The Jedi should have entered the war as advisors and "back-seat" generals. Commanding the troops from a safe distance, but placing their best Jedi on the front for some extra firepower. By best I mean Jedi that are the most adhered to the Light.

 

Revan had the Star Forge and his charisma. I don't doubt his ability to recruit people to join him. If he couldn't then he could just use the Star Forge droids as crews for his fleets.

[Aurbere]

You dare... (I kid, sort of - heck who am I kidding. DIE!)

 

I think what people need to realise though, it that while Kreia was a manipulating witch (or as Atton prefers, old scow ) she was capable of telling the truth, and didn't lie for the sake of lying, or because she had a mental disorder (she's not GLaDOS people). She only told lies to further her own agenda. We can categorize what she says into 3 sections: Lies and Manipulations, Cryptic Jedi Speak, Her Beliefs. What she says here slots into the 'Her Beliefs' section, as does all the other stuff she tells you about the Insidious Force, the True Sith and compassion etcera. This stuff is as truth as truth can get. But its subjective, so we can't say for sure. All we know is that Kreia was the most well-versed in the subject of Revan - arguably nobody new about his past better, not even Bastila. No doubt she came to this decision when investigating his past, so we can only assume she found some evidence to support this. But then again, it could have just been an attempt to prove that she was right and the Jedi were wrong, maybe she's just in denial. We can't say for sure (we can say she believes this to be true, she's not lying it that sense)

 

But what Kreia says is a springboard, by looking at the facts we can see logic and truth in her argument. You may remember in KOTOR 2 (you may never have got this dialogue), but Mical 'cracks it' if you like. He realises that Revan's conquest was not your run of the mill invasion, but a preservation, as if he was preparing for an invasion. His love for the Republic is also another factor. But we can't say what was going on in his head for sure, or how corrupted by the dark side he had become. And to be honest, the opinion that Revan never 'fell' to the dark side is an opinion, its purely subjective and can't really be backed up by facts, even if Revan believed this was true, you could argue against him, you can just accept it or reject it. SHE WASN'T LYING THOUGH! *tears out hair* Why does no one believe her? *starts sobbing*

 

Wow, my threads are always looong... (I spend more time here than playing the game) I'm not a ranter people, just got a lot to say.

 

EDIT: I forgot to mention this, too caught up in my rage. But lets say none of the events surrounding Malachor, the Emperor never happened. But the Mandalorian Wars did and Revan was involved and did the same things. Why would he turn to the dark side? (not rhetorical, I'm genuinely interested) I can't think of a reason he would embrace the Sith and war against the Republic, with no other Sith to turn him.

 

EDIT AGAIN: I think Malak is the real problem here, not Revan.

 

Long story short: Kreia lies, but there is small truths embeded within them. She also believes what she is saying which can be very dangerous.

 

Revan was falling to the Dark Side during the war. Malachor gave him that final push. Say he never went to Malachor. His fall would have been slower. If the Jedi acted quickly, they could stop him. But that could be as successful as trying to get a drug abuser to rehab. They would have to approach Revan carefully as Revan doesn't really care for the Council that much anymore.

[Aurbere]

I disagree with you on option two. The Republic wouldn't have been destroyed. The Core Worlds are pretty tough, I doubt the Mandalorians would have conquered them. At some point the Republic would have stopped them.

If the Sith joined the war then, the real threat would be revealed and the Empire would have to fight the Jedi Order at full might.

 

Option 2 was if the Jedi completely abstained from the war. Not fighting no matter what, even going so far as fleeing the Mandalorians.

 

The Republic would have lost without the Jedi. When Revan brought the Jedi into the war, Republic recruitment skyrocketed. Morale went through the roof. If Option 2 occurred, the Republic would have lost, eventually. The Mandalorians were employing a brilliant strategy that allowed Mandalore to play the Republic like an instrument.

[Aurbere]

Let me ask you all a few questions.

 

Do you feel Revan was right to go to war?

Do you think his actions during the war were right?

[MasterMe]

Well let's look at the other wars.

 

Wars with the Sith- The Jedi fight the Sith in the Force, Light versus Dark. In this case, the Jedi resist the darkness that the Sith unleash through their Jedi training. The Jedi of the Old Republic were trained to fight the Sith and the Darkness they unleash. The emotions of the Mandalorians are different as it is a lust for battle. Fighting the Mandalorians gives in to that lust for battle and allowed the Jedi to "receive" the Mandalorians emotions better, corrupting them.

 

Wars with droids- Droids don't have thoughts that Jedi pick up on, hence no Jedi falling from wars with droids, unless a Sith intervenes.

 

Wars with mercs- Specifically the Stark Hyperspace War. The enemy the Jedi fought were really just mercs. Hired guns, I believe. To them it was just a job. If they did have any aggressive emotions, the Jedi of this time were trained to master their own emotions and suppress them.

 

The Mandalorian Wars taught the Jedi to get a better grip on their emotions, to control them better to prevent another Jedi Civil War.

 

The Jedi should have entered the war as advisors and "back-seat" generals. Commanding the troops from a safe distance, but placing their best Jedi on the front for some extra firepower. By best I mean Jedi that are the most adhered to the Light.

 

Revan had the Star Forge and his charisma. I don't doubt his ability to recruit people to join him. If he couldn't then he could just use the Star Forge droids as crews for his fleets.

 

You make a great point (and I mostly agree with you - especially about the way in which the Jedi should fight) , but I disagree with your comparison between Mandos and Sith.

 

If a Jedi can avoid being caught up in the emotions of a Sith, then why couldn't they avoid the same with Mandos? I'm not saying that the Mandos and Sith are the same. But they both heavily rely on emotions (and they both share a blood lust).

 

As for the Clone Wars, you make the point that the enemy of the Jedi were droids. What about the men that the Jedi fought along side? What about the clones? They certainly used emotions (although they didn't rely heavily on them - the fact remains).

 

But yeah... I would definately say that if you can resist the emotions of a Sith, then you can resist the emotions of a Mando.

[Beniboybling]

Let me ask you all a few questions.

 

Do you feel Revan was right to go to war?

Do you think his actions during the war were right?

 

Yes, No. The principle was right, the Jedi Council had effectively failed (as in they failed to act on their findings/come up with a plausible and tangible strategy) So Revan felt he had no choice - seeing as the Republic were winning the war I can absolutely 100% see why he rushed to its defence.

 

However, perhaps he was wrong in certain ways. For example it is not the Jedi way to rush into battle without meditating on the enemy first - thats reckless and foolhardy. But as I was writing this it got me thinking, their are two scenarios here. 1. The Council informed Revan and perhaps other Jedi of their findings, that their was something else behind the war and the danger it posed. Or 2. the Council hid their findings from Revan for whatever reason.

If 1. is the case, then Revan in a sense wasn't rushing into battle without knowledge of his foe, but simply felt it was time to act. If 2. is the case, then the Council acted foolishly and are entirely responsible for Revan's actions. Either way my answer to the first question remains the same, yes.

 

As for the second, I said no because their is no excuse for atrocities, Revan only proved the Council right and inflicted further pain on the galaxy. I can understand why, but I don't advocate it.

 

And may I add a question to your list:

Do you think Revan's fall could have been prevented?

 

^^this is the key question. If the answer is a definite no, then the events that transpired where inevitable.

[Beniboybling]

Long story short: Kreia lies, but there is small truths embeded within them. She also believes what she is saying which can be very dangerous.

Yes she does, but when she speaks the truth you can tell, and if you can't tell just ask yourself - what could she gain from this by lying? What do you mean by the second part? (Are you suggesting that she 'lies' unintentionally, but passes it off as truth because she had such strong belief in her judgement?)

 

Revan was falling to the Dark Side during the war. Malachor gave him that final push. Say he never went to Malachor. His fall would have been slower. If the Jedi acted quickly, they could stop him. But that could be as successful as trying to get a drug abuser to rehab. They would have to approach Revan carefully as Revan doesn't really care for the Council that much anymore.

Hmmm, I agree. I just find it difficult to get my head around Revan turning against the Republic for little reason. But if he viewed the Council as weak, he would have reason too. (I believe they also pushed him to the dark side by pushing out i.e. refusing to listen/understand him. Zez-Kai Ell later admitted as much about Meetra)

[Aurbere]

You make a great point (and I mostly agree with you - especially about the way in which the Jedi should fight) , but I disagree with your comparison between Mandos and Sith.

 

If a Jedi can avoid being caught up in the emotions of a Sith, then why couldn't they avoid the same with Mandos? I'm not saying that the Mandos and Sith are the same. But they both heavily rely on emotions (and they both share a blood lust).

 

As for the Clone Wars, you make the point that the enemy of the Jedi were droids. What about the men that the Jedi fought along side? What about the clones? They certainly used emotions (although they didn't rely heavily on them - the fact remains).

 

But yeah... I would definately say that if you can resist the emotions of a Sith, then you can resist the emotions of a Mando.

 

You bring up an interesting point. One that I hadn't thought of until after writing that post.

 

I think bloodlust may have been the wrong word as I look back on it. The Sith have a bloodlust. The Mandalorians were more of a thrill of the battle type. The Jedi pick up on that and, some not all, fall into it. Once that happens, the fall starts and increased exposure to it will result in a fall to the Dark Side unless a wise Jedi Master were to intervene.

 

As to Jedi fighting Sith. The Jedi are trained to resist the emotions of the Sith. Specifically the Dark ones. When fighting Sith, the Jedi focus the Light to combat the darkness. Calm serenity versus pure aggression.

 

Hang on! I just thought of something. So when the Jedi fight, they open their minds up to the thoughts, intentions and actions of those around them. This allows them to maneuver around the battle, gracefully dodging blaster fire. This also allows them to pick up on the emotions of their enemies. When they fight Sith, the close their minds off to the emotions of the Sith, acting on instinct.

 

As to the clones. The Jedi didn't pick up on the emotions of their clone allies. It was unnecessary. This is also one of the reasons that the Jedi were so systematically wiped out by the clones. They didn't attack them with emotion, it was just an order.

[Aurbere]

Yes, No. The principle was right, the Jedi Council had effectively failed (as in they failed to act on their findings/come up with a plausible and tangible strategy) So Revan felt he had no choice - seeing as the Republic were winning the war I can absolutely 100% see why he rushed to its defence.

 

However, perhaps he was wrong in certain ways. For example it is not the Jedi way to rush into battle without meditating on the enemy first - thats reckless and foolhardy. But as I was writing this it got me thinking, their are two scenarios here. 1. The Council informed Revan and perhaps other Jedi of their findings, that their was something else behind the war and the danger it posed. Or 2. the Council hid their findings from Revan for whatever reason.

If 1. is the case, then Revan in a sense wasn't rushing into battle without knowledge of his foe, but simply felt it was time to act. If 2. is the case, then the Council acted foolishly and are entirely responsible for Revan's actions. Either way my answer to the first question remains the same, yes.

 

As for the second, I said no because their is no excuse for atrocities, Revan only proved the Council right and inflicted further pain on the galaxy. I can understand why, but I don't advocate it.

 

And may I add a question to your list:

Do you think Revan's fall could have been prevented?

 

^^this is the key question. If the answer is a definite no, then the events that transpired where inevitable.

 

Fully agree with your answers. As for your counter question.

 

It depends upon the circumstances. I think the only real way to keep Revan from falling would have been to keep him on a short leash. If we go by my battle strategy, I would place him on a planet to defend it. Say I had a vision of the JCW and saw Revan.

 

But in the war. I really don't know. Having a Jedi Master with him could work. The best answer here would be to keep him out of battles. In my opinion of course. I'll have to think on this a bit longer.

[MasterMe]

Let me ask you all a few questions.

 

Do you feel Revan was right to go to war?

Do you think his actions during the war were right?

 

Question 1: Yes. The Republic needed his leadership and the Jedi he brought with him. What he did after he joined the war is a different matter, so I won't get into it.

 

Question 2: Yes and No. I'm sure early in the war what he did was fine, but as we know, his decision making got bad. He took up aggresive tactics that unnecessarily risked his men's lives. He abandoned worlds for the purpose of victory. This isn't always a bad thing. Sometimes you have to sacrifice lives to save others. But it's my understanding that he did this to the extent to which it was a bad thing. There's a difference between sacrificing people for the purpose of saving others, and then there's sacrificing people for the purpose of total victory. This happens when people get impatient. I believe Revan got impatient.

 

Don't get me wrong, I think that using aggressive tactics is a good thing. Revan did good in this since. But aventually, he made victory his top priority (saving lives and preserving freedom should always be your top priority). He forgot that he needed freedom for the purpose of saving lives. The man got everything mixed up. But yea, aggressive tactics are good things in and of themselves.

[Aurbere]

Yes she does, but when she speaks the truth you can tell, and if you can't tell just ask yourself - what could she gain from this by lying? What do you mean by the second part? (Are you suggesting that she 'lies' unintentionally, but passes it off as truth because she had such strong belief in her judgement?)

 

 

Hmmm, I agree. I just find it difficult to get my head around Revan turning against the Republic for little reason. But if he viewed the Council as weak, he would have reason too. (I believe they also pushed him to the dark side by pushing out i.e. refusing to listen/understand him. Zez-Kai Ell later admitted as much about Meetra)

 

The thing about Kreia is that she lies, but you can tell what is the truth. There are ways to sort out truths and lies.

 

That's not really what I meant. Maybe I worded it wrong. She believes everything that she says, lies or no, and forcefully tries to educate people on her views. She believes everything she says, which makes her dangerous.

 

We also have to remember that the Dark Side twists the views of those it corrupts. Even the greatest of heroes and most devout followers of the Jedi way could become a person that hates everything he once stood for. Revan was finally turned at Malachor, a planet of immense Dark Side energies. The Dark Side presence greatly affected his mind and twisted his will, enhancing the Darkness already manifesting within him.

 

Is Malachor's Dark Energies the reason for his fall? Yes. I believe that he could have been turned back if he hadn't gone to look for the Sith Empire. Once he found the Star Forge, it became nigh irreversible.

[Beniboybling]

You bring up an interesting point. One that I hadn't thought of until after writing that post.

 

I think bloodlust may have been the wrong word as I look back on it. The Sith have a bloodlust. The Mandalorians were more of a thrill of the battle type. The Jedi pick up on that and, some not all, fall into it. Once that happens, the fall starts and increased exposure to it will result in a fall to the Dark Side unless a wise Jedi Master were to intervene.

 

As to Jedi fighting Sith. The Jedi are trained to resist the emotions of the Sith. Specifically the Dark ones. When fighting Sith, the Jedi focus the Light to combat the darkness. Calm serenity versus pure aggression.

 

Hang on! I just thought of something. So when the Jedi fight, they open their minds up to the thoughts, intentions and actions of those around them. This allows them to maneuver around the battle, gracefully dodging blaster fire. This also allows them to pick up on the emotions of their enemies. When they fight Sith, the close their minds off to the emotions of the Sith, acting on instinct.

 

As to the clones. The Jedi didn't pick up on the emotions of their clone allies. It was unnecessary. This is also one of the reasons that the Jedi were so systematically wiped out by the clones. They didn't attack them with emotion, it was just an order.

You make some good points, but I don't think many Jedi began falling to the dark side through the course of the Mandalorian Wars. From what I gather from KOTOR 1 and KOTOR 2 it was the Battle of Malachor that broke most of the Jedi and turned them to the dark side. And yes, you guessed it, Zez-Kai Ell my favourite of my least favourite Jedi Council supports me on this.

I, too, lost a Padawan on Malachor. Not to the battle, but to the alternative - to the teachings that Revan brought from the Unknown Regions

 

I think it was the events of Malachor and the fanaticism the Revanchists had to their leader and therefore devotion to his new teachings if what led to Jedi falling to the dark side. Revan and Malak where the only ones really affected by the events of the war.

[mefit]

Let me ask you all a few questions.

 

Do you feel Revan was right to go to war?

Do you think his actions during the war were right?

 

1 Yes , but he was not mentally strong enough to control his emotions .

2 I feel the way the story plays out they make it seem like he had no choice , it was a endgame move that seemed to have more badside effects then he thought .

Again , just like he was shown in Foundry ..........he just seems to not be able to control his Emotions.

Edited November 9, 2012 by mefit

[MasterMe]

Yes, No. The principle was right, the Jedi Council had effectively failed (as in they failed to act on their findings/come up with a plausible and tangible strategy) So Revan felt he had no choice - seeing as the Republic were winning the war I can absolutely 100% see why he rushed to its defence.

 

However, perhaps he was wrong in certain ways. For example it is not the Jedi way to rush into battle without meditating on the enemy first - thats reckless and foolhardy. But as I was writing this it got me thinking, their are two scenarios here. 1. The Council informed Revan and perhaps other Jedi of their findings, that their was something else behind the war and the danger it posed. Or 2. the Council hid their findings from Revan for whatever reason.

If 1. is the case, then Revan in a sense wasn't rushing into battle without knowledge of his foe, but simply felt it was time to act. If 2. is the case, then the Council acted foolishly and are entirely responsible for Revan's actions. Either way my answer to the first question remains the same, yes.

 

As for the second, I said no because their is no excuse for atrocities, Revan only proved the Council right and inflicted further pain on the galaxy. I can understand why, but I don't advocate it.

 

And may I add a question to your list:

Do you think Revan's fall could have been prevented?

 

^^this is the key question. If the answer is a definite no, then the events that transpired where inevitable.

 

Ooooh. Good question!

 

Yes. I think that Revan's fall could have been avoided. If the Jedi had entered the war, then there are several reasons why Revan wouldn't have falleen.

 

1: Once you break one rule, then you're more likely to break another. If the Jedi had supported Revan, then he would've been less likely to break more rules.

 

2: If the Jedi Masters were on the front line with Revan, then they could have stamped out any arising badness in Revan the second they saw it. As it happened, there was nobody to impart wisdom upon Revan.

 

3: Revan wouldn't have been in charge if the Jedi had joined the war. Accordingly, he wouldn't have had the opportunity to make bad leadership choices.

[Aurbere]

Question 1: Yes. The Republic needed his leadership and the Jedi he brought with him. What he did after he joined the war is a different matter, so I won't get into it.

 

Question 2: Yes and No. I'm sure early in the war what he did was fine, but as we know, his decision making got bad. He took up aggresive tactics that unnecessarily risked his men's lives. He abandoned worlds for the purpose of victory. This isn't always a bad thing. Sometimes you have to sacrifice lives to save others. But it's my understanding that he did this to the extent to which it was a bad thing. There's a difference between sacrificing people for the purpose of saving others, and then there's sacrificing people for the purpose of total victory. This happens when people get impatient. I believe Revan got impatient.

 

Don't get me wrong, I think that using aggressive tactics is a good thing. Revan did good in this since. But aventually, he made victory his top priority (saving lives and preserving freedom should always be your top priority). He forgot that he needed freedom for the purpose of saving lives. The man got everything mixed up. But yea, aggressive tactics are good things in and of themselves.

His tactics became far more aggressive as the war went on. A hint to the Darkness that was manifesting inside him. He began to sacrifice more and more people for total victory.

 

While aggressive tactics are necessary, you can't sacrifice entire worlds for total victory. Revan failed, or didn't try, to comprehend the consequences of his strategy. Revan could have won the war in a far more different way. A way that I have laid out in previous posts.