Why I think PvP is not fun anymore...

[Antipodes]

Great post, well written and you make a lot of good points.

 

The only thing I disagree with is number 3, regarding gear.

 

Yeah, getting rid of expertise would make it so that people who have top tier PVE gear would be able to go into PVP without any gear disadvantage, but this could even end up making things even worse for people who do not play enough to get top tier gear in the first place. At the moment the only option those players have, if they don't want to play with a permanent gear disadvantage, is to stick to 10-49.

 

So what you're doing then is you are inviting in people who aren't really that interested in PVP in the first place, while at the same time further pushing away players who are very interested but do not have the time to play enough to keep themselves up-to-date with top tier gear.

 

^

 

#3 could easily be re-worded as a reason for why gear matters too much in PvE and why F2P players won't do Operations as a result. What's wrong with having skill-based PvE too? I'm guessing the OP would not be want PvE to only reward cosmetic gear though.

 

Ive started to spend more time on the PVE aspect of the game and checking out Elder Scrolls Online articles as they will have DAoC style RVR (3 factions) and will NOT have pvp gear progression of any type.

 

When does the stupid hype-train stop for unreleased MMOs? It amazes me how people have forgotten GW2 when it was plastered all over SWTOR's forums. Isn't what you're saying exactly why GW2 was supposed to be so awesome?

 

If I wanted to play a game based purely on skill, I'd be playing the many games that already exist: CoD, Starcraft 2, Street Fighter, etc.

 

I agree, and to take it a step further, even Call of Duty and Battlefield have progression systems now. Progression systems might scare some people away, but it also keeps the people who are interested playing longer and more often. If Starcraft and Street Fighter didn't have a ladder system, ranking, or tournaments, the majority of players would get bored too.

Edited November 6, 2012 by Antipodes

[Rassuro]

^

 

#3 could easily be re-worded as a reason for why gear matters too much in PvE and why F2P players won't do Operations as a result. What's wrong with having skill-based PvE too? I'm guessing the OP would not be want PvE to only reward cosmetic gear though.

Sure, in a way. However in a way PVE already is skill based, as long as you keep doing the content which is relevant for the gear you wear. In PVE you have that option, in PVP you don't.

 

However yes, the gear is probably the main reason why I'm not doing an operations, it's bad enough keeping one set of gear. I wish that I could at least experience the story...

The Dread Masters are supposed to be the bad guys now? Last time I saw them, I saved them and they were on my side...

 

If I wanted to play a game based purely on skill, I'd be playing the many games that already exist: CoD, Starcraft 2, Street Fighter, etc.

Why do you bring up games with completely different gameplay? You don't think that perhaps some people prefer the hotkey based MMORPG gameplay, but want it to be competitive and focused on skill?

[dazaria]

I agree with you on a lot of what you said.... I personally hate warzones. I hated them when battlefields were introduced to SWG and I hate them in this game even more! It is not fun to spend 90% of a warzone unable to defend yourself because the opposing team gets off on stunning you to death! I like a challenge...how is crippling a player and killing them while they cant do anything fun? I honestly feel sorry for people who are just reaching 50 and are starting off in recruit. They should have a message pop up that says 'congrats on reaching 50, youre now everyones b*tch'. Like seriously....if you just hit 50 and you plan on pvping....youre basically paying 14.99 s month to get your a*S kicked!

[Eillack]

I agree with you on a lot of what you said.... I personally hate warzones. I hated them when battlefields were introduced to SWG and I hate them in this game even more! It is not fun to spend 90% of a warzone unable to defend yourself because the opposing team gets off on stunning you to death! I like a challenge...how is crippling a player and killing them while they cant do anything fun? I honestly feel sorry for people who are just reaching 50 and are starting off in recruit. They should have a message pop up that says 'congrats on reaching 50, youre now everyones b*tch'. Like seriously....if you just hit 50 and you plan on pvping....youre basically paying 14.99 s month to get your a*S kicked!

 

Or when you enter with recruit, those in BM or WH troll you asking why you don't have better armor.

 

I laughed in their faces on my alt when this happened.

Edited November 7, 2012 by Eillack

[Arlanon]

Excellent post. I do, however, feel the need to defend Expertise. I know it gets a lot of hate from people who don't understand what it really does.

 

Suppose you have a Marauder and a Sentinel. They are both in full PvE gear. They have very high Strength and do a lot of damage to each other.

 

Now suppose the Marauder gears up, and now has a set of PvP gear. The Sentinel is still in PvE. Assume that the Marauder has Expertise that gives him 10% damage output and 10% incoming damage reduction. That creates a 20% discrepancy vs the PvE geared Sentinel, who subsequently cries on the forums about Expertise being overpowered.

 

But suppose the Sentinel, against all odds, keeps going, and earns himself a comparable set of PvP gear. The Sentinel now has the same 10% bonuses as the Marauder. Their respective bonuses essentially cancel each other out. The Marauder does 10% more the the Sentinel, but the Sentinel takes 10% less, and vice-versa. The bonus kicker, that people fail to consider, is that each of these players GAVE UP A PORTION OF THEIR STRENGTH in order to attain that level of Expertise. So not only do their Expertise bonuses cancel each other out, they are also nerfing themselves, when facing each other.

 

That is the true genius of Expertise. It is a nerf disguised as a buff. Vs someone without Expertise, yes you will pwn them. But Vs someone with Expertise, you are reducing each other's damage output via lower Strength totals.

 

Yes it sucks to be on the lower end of the Expertise curve. But keep fighting and eventually things are not so bad. Expertise is a great mechanic because it actually works to make PvP battles last longer. But only when both sides have comparable gear.

 

The numbers themselves can always be adjusted. If people are getting splatted in comparable gear, the damage reduction % could simply be increased to compensate.

[Smashbrother]

Sure, in a way. However in a way PVE already is skill based, as long as you keep doing the content which is relevant for the gear you wear. In PVE you have that option, in PVP you don't.

 

This is true. In pvp you will get matched against people better geared than you. This problem can be solved by having x-server Qs which allows for matchmaking. This will still keep the carrot on a stick. Getting rid of gear isn't the answer.

 

However yes, the gear is probably the main reason why I'm not doing an operations, it's bad enough keeping one set of gear. I wish that I could at least experience the story...

The Dread Masters are supposed to be the bad guys now? Last time I saw them, I saved them and they were on my side...

 

Augmented WH gear is plenty good enough for HM EC. You can go and do pve anytime you want.

 

 

Why do you bring up games with completely different gameplay? You don't think that perhaps some people prefer the hotkey based MMORPG gameplay, but want it to be competitive and focused on skill?

 

And there are MMOs out there like GW2 that have what you want.

 

Also, why are you trying to eliminate a key component of RPGs from and RPG game (progression).

[Centures]

As long imps have no honor and keep running premades into pugs it will suck for everyone

 

Even up the classes

[Crawelc]

As long imps have no honor and keep running premades into pugs it will suck for everyone

 

Even up the classes

 

New Guild MOTD

[denpic]

As long imps have no honor and keep running premades into pugs it will suck for everyone

 

Even up the classes

 

Oh come off it you do realise that pubs run premades too?

 

I'm having a blast in pvp at the moment I've just hit 50 on my vanguard In 4 days I have gotten my 4pc bm set I see myself improving with every upgrade last night I topped a vs with over 400k damage and 35k prot 17 medals

If you're not having fun and can't play within the current pvp mechanics then move on and find something else

Sure the game has its issues there No denying that but then what game doesn't

[Doomsdaycomes]

As long imps have no honor and keep running premades into pugs it will suck for everyone

 

Even up the classes

 

"Playing to Win" by Sirlin.

 

There is no honor in PvP. Those who gimp themselves avoiding "cowardly" tactics, abstaining from "cheap" consumables, and refusing to use "honorless" pre-match tools have a single definition: Scrub.

 

=P read, learn, evolve.

[CommanderKeeva]

^

 

#3 could easily be re-worded as a reason for why gear matters too much in PvE and why F2P players won't do Operations as a result. What's wrong with having skill-based PvE too? I'm guessing the OP would not be want PvE to only reward cosmetic gear though.

 

Actually, you're dead wrong on that one. I am against gear progression in any aspect of the game both PvE and PvP. I can live with it, but I do not like it. The only reason I did not mention PvE is because it's the PvP section. If I like a game (and I love this game very much), I will play it regardless of whether or not I get a shiny piece of item that has +15 armor, +2 endurance and +4 main stat. (Actually I like cosmetic rewards like titles, pets, speeders, unique looking armor a lot more than crap looking gear with more main stat and endurance [Endurance mostly]).

 

So far my favorite MMO (before SWTOR) was Guild Wars 1 and there was no gear progression there.

 

And to reiterate myself for the millionth time: In PvE you can go for a gear appropriate challenge. If you have Columi, you don't HAVE to do Denova HM. In PvP if you have Recruit, you HAVE to go against War Heroes. The main problem is the lack of match making. If the queue in a warzone put people roughly in the same gear (be that Recruit, BM or WH) together, half the problem would already be gone.

Edited November 7, 2012 by CommanderKeeva

[Arlanon]

So then what's to stop someone from signing up in Recruit gear, then switching to War Hero once they are inside?

[CommanderKeeva]

So then what's to stop someone from signing up in Recruit gear, then switching to War Hero once they are inside?

 

The system that automatically kicks them out if they go over a certain value of Expertise. Naturally, some safeguards would have to be put in place and no system is flawless but it would be a step in the right direction.

[Tebbis]

Is this the Coalesce Force Keeva? If it is, you should roll Imp on the bastion, I started a pvp guild there called the Pwn Stars, we're getting really solid, beat the #1 pub guild on the server Synergy in RWZ's, would be awesome if you played w/us. My mara's name is Game'of'pwns. Godrin is playin too, his main is a Sorc named Redletter, pulled 1.1 million healing the other night. We're havin lots of fun still.

[Rassuro]

And there are MMOs out there like GW2 that have what you want.

 

Also, why are you trying to eliminate a key component of RPGs from and RPG game (progression).

First, I don't think it's fair that you bring GW2 into the discussion when we're specifically talking about the gameplay, as GW2 plays quite differently and it's gameplay is focused on different things. If we had been talking about just "any kind of MMORPG" then sure, but we're not.

 

Second, I can understand why to some people consider the actual progression to be very important, but please keep in mind that for some people, progression in terms of seeing numbers get bigger is not the most important aspect of what makes an RPG.

 

For me, when talking RPG overall (not just ones with the WOW/SWOTR style gameplay), it's a lot more about abilities, and having different options. These can be conversation options like in SWTOR or Mass Effect, or having different options when it comes to choosing things like gear, abilities, and playstyle.

 

I agree that it would be an improvement if there was gear (and/or skill) based cross server matchmaking, though.

[Tebbis]

o btw lol this is Sparklinwiggles

[Smashbrother]

First, I don't think it's fair that you bring GW2 into the discussion when we're specifically talking about the gameplay, as GW2 plays quite differently and it's gameplay is focused on different things. If we had been talking about just "any kind of MMORPG" then sure, but we're not.

 

Second, I can understand why to some people consider the actual progression to be very important, but please keep in mind that for some people, progression in terms of seeing numbers get bigger is not the most important aspect of what makes an RPG.

 

For me, when talking RPG overall (not just ones with the WOW/SWOTR style gameplay), it's a lot more about abilities, and having different options. These can be conversation options like in SWTOR or Mass Effect, or having different options when it comes to choosing things like gear, abilities, and playstyle.

 

I agree that it would be an improvement if there was gear (and/or skill) based cross server matchmaking, though.

 

I mentioned GW2 because you said some people prefer hotkey based MMORPGs where there's no gear progression and skill matters, which GW2 is.

Edited November 7, 2012 by Smashbrother

[MelodicSixNine]

So then what's to stop someone from signing up in Recruit gear, then switching to War Hero once they are inside?

 

Bah that's so simple! Disable reequipping in warzone. To make it funnier let them unequip an item and then don't let them equip anything to that slot until they leave the WZ. Wanted to be smart and put better gear on? Suffer!

[AiienTeer]

1. PvP currently has no matchmaking system beyond 10-49 and 50

 

This. Yesterday evening killed SW:TOR PvP for me. Starting PvP at 11 level and serving as practice targets for anyone and being unable to do anything simply takes all the fun from PvP. Even if I end on the winning team (more 30-40 lvl players then on the other side) I still know I had NO part at it and anything I was was a nuisance - for my own team. And to know, that it will be so for most of my leveling... no, thank you.

 

It is even worse then STO PvP (and I never thought I say this), cause at least there the queues and the open PvP system (one) are grouped by levels (each 10 levels have their own zone)

 

I think I will return to PvE and simply play all of the stories and then unsub. My first touch of PvP in TOR and it was so friggin disappointing.

[GrandMike]

Ill comment, its same comments i made 8-9 months ago:

 

1. PvP currently has no matchmaking system beyond 10-49 and 50

2. The current PvP queue does not differentiate between solo and grouped players

6. Ranked Warzones are not providing enough incentive for top players to play them

There werent enough people for these brackets before, let alone for any other brackets. Wonder if there are now, but i wouldnt bet on it, not fore every server anyway. SWTOR has severe population issues that only got worse in time.

 

3. Gear becomes one of the most (if not THE most important) determining factor

 

Most stupid thing you can do: base your game on gear progression. Its bad for PvE and PvP, but since BW didnt have any ideas of their own, they made same mistake as most games before them. With same crap attached.

 

Of course, SWTOR tanked and this one is one of primary contributors.

 

4. Current Resolve system means that cc breakers are vastly inadequate for the amount of cc players are subjected to

 

 

 

Since they didnt bother to separate PvE and PvP, this is what you get, stun wars. It is what it is.

 

5. Class Imbalance

 

They clearly showed they have no clue what they are doing. Mind boggling is that game was much more balanced on launch than it is now.

And all the "balancing" was for PvE, they put PvP on backburner and stopped caring about it...since launch. Dont expect anything done on this matter, PvP wise, only "balancing" will happen for PvE, how your class is struck n PvP is non issue for them

 

7. World PvP is non-existent

 

Direct consequence of incompetence and not knowing how to deal with issues. Easy solution: shut down Ilum. It shows how PvP problems will be dealt in the future.

 

8. Lack of communication from the developers

 

C*apload of people were fired, and those who are left are working on F2P (1,5?). They dont really want to say "were not doing anything but F2P right now, well tune in...somewhere next year". Better to not say anything, dont you think?

 

 

Bottom line:

 

SWTOR is PvE game where PvP was made a side attraction (after launch) just as "space combat", every PvPer worth a dime left before 1,3.

 

And of course, always fond of mentioning famous "team of Operatives". Anybody ever actually seen...team of Operatives. lol That was first clue of how things would end up for PvP.

 

Someone gave you good advice: play GW2 for PvP. Or any other game for that matter.

Edited November 7, 2012 by GrandMike

[TridusSWTOR]

GW2's dying tournament PvP says "hi".

 

TOR's non-existent ranked season 1 says "sup"

[CommanderKeeva]

For all their claims that they have studied what made previous MMOs fail and what their mistakes in PvP were, clearly, they have not.

[Antipodes]

Actually, you're dead wrong on that one. I am against gear progression in any aspect of the game both PvE and PvP. I can live with it, but I do not like it. The only reason I did not mention PvE is because it's the PvP section. If I like a game (and I love this game very much), I will play it regardless of whether or not I get a shiny piece of item that has +15 armor, +2 endurance and +4 main stat. (Actually I like cosmetic rewards like titles, pets, speeders, unique looking armor a lot more than crap looking gear with more main stat and endurance [Endurance mostly]).

 

So far my favorite MMO (before SWTOR) was Guild Wars 1 and there was no gear progression there.

 

And to reiterate myself for the millionth time: In PvE you can go for a gear appropriate challenge. If you have Columi, you don't HAVE to do Denova HM. In PvP if you have Recruit, you HAVE to go against War Heroes. The main problem is the lack of match making. If the queue in a warzone put people roughly in the same gear (be that Recruit, BM or WH) together, half the problem would already be gone.

 

If you're against gear progression in both PvE and PvP, and your favorite MMO is GW1, why the heck aren't you playing GW2?

 

Also, your last paragraph has been addressed that brackets (matching like-skill) could achieve the same thing. That is something I've agreed with you in my original response. The problem is there simply isn't a big enough population to do that anymore. For the record, I am not against gear progression in PvE. The argument I was addressing was the claims of "skill". Regardless of the difficulty levels, the same argument can be applied to PvE. Why can't a "skilled" player do HM TfB the minute he hits max level then?

 

The solution to gear disparity does not have to be no gear. There have been good suggestion posts of a limited recruit gear-only bracket that lets people get just enough comms for BM before being put into the normal queue.

 

TOR's non-existent ranked season 1 says "sup"

 

11 month old game vs 2 month old game that was hyped to have PvP good enough to be an e-sport. I'm actually genuinely surprised at the fallout of GW2 PvP, especially for a game without a subscription.

Edited November 7, 2012 by Antipodes

[CommanderKeeva]

If you're against gear progression in both PvE and PvP, and your favorite MMO is GW1, why the heck aren't you playing GW2?

 

I prefer science fiction to fantasy. I've always loved the Star Wars universe way more than any fantasy realm. And while GW2 is definitely a step up from GW1, I couldn't really stomach the conversation system and the lack of voices. Leveling felt like a huge step down from SWTOR. Guess we are spoiled in that regard.

 

There are so many fantasy MMOs out there (GW1 and 2, WoW, TERA, Rift) that I got sick of the genre for a while.

 

Anyways. back to the point. F2P will bring curious new and old players to SWTOR (hopefully). So, if we can make them enjoy PvP and have them stick around, we might even get enough people to do multiple brackets at 50.

[Antipodes]

Anyways. back to the point. F2P will bring curious new and old players to SWTOR (hopefully). So, if we can make them enjoy PvP and have them stick around, we might even get enough people to do multiple brackets at 50.

 

I very much agree with statement, and I have said in the past, that the adoption rate for F2P-players becoming PvPers is going to be almost non-existent with the current system. That's a shame, because I really do think the PvP in SWTOR is very fun.

 

I just strongly disagree with the no gear solution, and I believe that would hurt the PvP's longevity just as much. Getting rid of expertise and treating PvP and PvE as equal paths of gear progression would be my ideal solution. Having a limited recruit bracket to ease to gear gap would be another one.

 

People has to realize that even in the *popular* games with no gear disparity, there is often a very attractive goal to achieve. Climbing a ranking ladder works really well in 1v1 games like SC2. Earning currency to buy more heroes as well as a leveling system works well in LoL. Even popular shooters like CoD and BF are adding progression/unlock systems as incentives.

Edited November 7, 2012 by Antipodes