TFB HM Last Boss Shadow Tanking

[Jimvinny]

Was doing HM TFB last night, and ran into a pretty disconcerting fact; During the first phase of the Terror from Beyond, my Shadow tank takes a ****load more damage than does our vanguard tank. Significantly more, I'm talking 35-40%. we get through it fine, because my healer is great, and I'm never actually in trouble, but seeing those numbers is a little depressing. Can anyone tell me if this is normal? HP wise, I'm just shy of 28k stimmed and buffed, with 27% defense, 65% shield, and 60% absorb. I've got 3 63 armorings, but everything else are 61's.

 

Again, we always get through phase one with no issues other than the usual dps standing in spit, but the amount of damage I take bothers me. Is this just something I'm going to have to learn to deal with as a shadow tank? Or am I missing something gear wise?

[PifferPuff]

What is your Damage Reduction stat?

 

My shadow tank only has just shy of 37% after the nerf. Compare that with a Jedi Guardian with 50-ish % (most I've seen is 52.48%). Also, heavy armor will always have an edge over light armor. This is why I can't even begin to tank the tougher ops bosses without being on some serious life support (i.e. 2 healers minimum just on me).

 

But in all seriousness, I think it is something that you will have to get used to in the Asation operation, and other difficult bosses in the game. As a shadow tank, this is chiefly why I usually defer the main tank responsibility to a vanguard or guardian tank, and work on just pulling adds.

 

BW called it balancing PvE, and in a way, they are right. Eventhough shadow tanks have less damage reduction, we can do more dps than a guardian tank can.

 

tl;dr - Shadow tank needs more heals as MT; or become OT.

 

Just my 2 cents. I may be wrong on this, but this has been my experience.

[Kitru]

As a shadow tank, this is chiefly why I usually defer the main tank responsibility to a vanguard or guardian tank, and work on just pulling adds.

 

Whether you should defer to another tank depends almost entirely on the boss in question, not just the fact that you're a Shadow. Bosses that deal a lot of K/E damage with F/T attacks (like p2-3 TfB) are hell to play with as a Shadow Tank because we have lower K/E DR than the other tanks and rely upon higher def/shield/abs to make up for that (which we more than do) unless you abuse the bejeebus out of Resilience (re: using it on CD to buy yourself a small window of not taking damage), but bosses that deal a lot of F/T I/E damage (we have the best resistance chance, highest I/E dam redux, and the most self healing, not to mention Resilience) or M/R of any kind are generally best handled by a well played Shadow Tank, as are bosses with discrete repeated burst damage mechanisms (thanks to the awesomeness of our CDs).

[PifferPuff]

Nice add Kitru.

 

To reiterate what he said in two words: Player Skill.

 

For full effectiveness, a shadow tank must be played like a Mozart concerto by a master pianist; not a punk rock rhythm guitarist. Basically, you need to know your rotations, and the fight mechanics. But since you seemed to have cleared TfB (I'm assuming), I'd say you know this already quite well.

 

Yes, our HP will take a beating, even with mitigating stats, and CDs do help a lot. But as a tank, i have to say I love my healers for keeping me alive.

 

Clarification: I do main tank well against some tough ops bosses, but will gladly ask to defer against the real baddies if i see a well-geared guardian in the run. Yes, you can call me lazy. LOL

Edited October 29, 2012 by PifferPuff

[Jimvinny]

Thanks for the replies, guys. I guess it's just that up to this point, the ONLY boss I've even had a bit of a problem with is NiM Jarg. As for Resilience, I already use it on cooldown, if only to give my healer an opportunity to get me back to 100%. As for my damage reduction, it's at 40.46%, still nowhere near a guardians or a vanguards.

[Cheaky]

the issue with TFB phase 1 is for whatever reason the tentacle being tanked will sometimes eat 2-3 shadow wards when it hits instead of the customary 1 even if the tank is in the appropriate position and not getting hit by the other cleaves going on. Our shadow, guardian tank and our healers have all noticed it. It's a lame retarded mechanic/bug/whateveryouwanttocallit for the first phase of the fight.

[Kitru]

It's a lame retarded mechanic/bug/whateveryouwanttocallit for the first phase of the fight.

 

It's a mechanic. The Tentacles' Slam attack is 5 swings happening at once. With a 30% Defense chance and 65% Shield chance, you're going 1.5 attacks are going to miss you, 2.275 attacks are going to get shielded, and 1.225 attacks are going to get through unmitigated, on average. It's pretty much a "watch your KW stacks vanish before your very eyes!" attack, just like any time you're tanking multiple enemies in a trash pack.

[Jimvinny]

The mechanic isn't really the issue. Yes, KW stacks drop fast, but I'm only without them for a second or two at a time. The issue is just that I get hit for a lot more than our other tank does. For example, on one lame attempt, two dps got killed by spit, and we ended up hitting the enrage on the tentacles. We compared notes for how hard the tentacle's slams were hitting at that point, and here is what we found; Our full campaign vanguard got hit for 12k, I got hit for 16k, and the dps and healers were getting hit for between 19 and 20k. so for all intents and purposes, my damage reduction puts me closer to a sentinel than I am to the vanguard tank.

 

I guess I just have to be glad I've only been playing a shadow for a couple of months. Because if I had been a shadow tank pre-nerf, the ****-kicking our armor took would have made me livid.

[Assillius]

lol its so easy for shadow to tank it probably even easier than for other tanks. My shadow same as yours 28k hp 27%def 65% shield 65% absorb. And belive me its possible to survive tentacles without even a healer. Poin is that those tentacle do pysical tiny dmg but they slap youwith huge aoe for like 7-8k and its magis dmg so you only need to pop resilience in time. And because each hit it consumes 2 points of your ward resilience cd drops to like 30-40 sec from 1 min so you can avoid each third slap. And obviously if you play right then you heal urself each 10 sec for ~2.5k hp Edited November 1, 2012 by Assillius

[Kajuana]

lol its so easy for shadow to tank it probably even easier than for other tanks. My shadow same as yours 28k hp 27%def 65% shield 65% absorb.

 

How do you get get 28k hp, 27% def, 65% shield/absorb ?

 

I am at full BH with 27.7K hp, 27% def, shield 63% (w/ KF), absorb 52%.

At this point I am just trading stats (i.e. one goes up, other goes down).

There is no way for me to reach absorb 65% w/o bringing down absorb.

... unless you use dreadguard / hazmat gear?

[Assillius]

im 63 modded

[Kajuana]

im 63 modded

 

I see. I hope by the time I reach your 60% absorb I will find tanking easier.

 

As of now, I am quite sad that shadow tanks are more of a liability for the group than vanguards and guardians.

Simply put, you take more damage most of the time.

 

This is especially obvious if shadows tank Toth in EC HM, a slightly worse healer would mean the group wipes. (compared to a guardian, which seemingly takes alot less damage)

[BlznSmri]

I see. I hope by the time I reach your 60% absorb I will find tanking easier.

 

As of now, I am quite sad that shadow tanks are more of a liability for the group than vanguards and guardians.

Simply put, you take more damage most of the time.

 

This is especially obvious if shadows tank Toth in EC HM, a slightly worse healer would mean the group wipes. (compared to a guardian, which seemingly takes alot less damage)

 

What are you even talking about?

 

I was tanking T & Z with 20/35/50 no problem. Just save Deflection for berserk and you should have virtually no problem

Edited November 5, 2012 by BlznSmri

[Assillius]

actually you wrong. its much easier for shadow than for others coz all their attaks like toth's jumps switch and berserc , zorn's screams and debuffs all magic damage. if you are a good shadow tank you know when to pop resilience and u can absorb up to 20k dmg in 5 secs and cd on resilience average 45sec while other tanks will receive full dmg or will need to pop their abilities which have 2-3 mins cd.

[Kitru]

As of now, I am quite sad that shadow tanks are more of a liability for the group than vanguards and guardians.

Simply put, you take more damage most of the time.

 

First off, I have no clue what you're talking about. Shadow aren't a liability as tanks at any gear level, except for sub-30 leveling wherein they don't have the full suite of tank stats and self heals that they need to be effective. The only way that you could possibly be a liability to your group is if you're simply a bad Shadow, by which I mean one that doesn't use their CDs, lets KW drop off without reapplying immediately, and has no idea what the proper attack priority is. If you *do* know fight mechanics, use your CDs properly, and use your attacks correctly, a Shadow tank is going to be amazing at 50.

 

Secondly, yes, Shadows take more damage than the other 2 tanks and have spikier incoming damage. That's a well known fact based upon how they were designed (low DR and heavy reliance on def/shield/abs). However, it *should* be just as well known that a Shadow will require *less healing* than indicated by their damage taken by virtue of their self heals making up the damage-taken gap more than enough. In fact, a well played Shadow is going to require less healing from healers in most situations thanks to having the best overall mitigation and CDs.

 

This is especially obvious if shadows tank Toth in EC HM, a slightly worse healer would mean the group wipes. (compared to a guardian, which seemingly takes alot less damage)

 

I've never had a single problem with Toth on my Shadow, nor any other boss. In fact, I have an easier time of running pretty much every boss I've ever run than the Guardians or VGs I've run with. If you don't know how to leverage your CDs (especially if you're packing a use relic, which you should, *especially* for T&Z), yes, you'll have problems, but that's not a problem with the class; that's a problem with your ability to play the class effectively. You don't get to whine about having problems as a tank if you're simply not playing the class effectively.

 

If you're having problems tanking, you may want to consider tweaking your gear. With 27.7k hp, you're devoting a lot of itemization to hp that, honestly, is largely redundant. Switch out some of that Endurance for Absorb to put yourself at ~24k hp and you should have 60% absorb no problem.

Edited November 5, 2012 by Kitru

[BlznSmri]

actually you wrong. its much easier for shadow than for others coz all their attaks like toth's jumps switch and berserc , zorn's screams and debuffs all magic damage. if you are a good shadow tank you know when to pop resilience and u can absorb up to 20k dmg in 5 secs and cd on resilience average 45sec while other tanks will receive full dmg or will need to pop their abilities which have 2-3 mins cd.

 

Berserk is Kinetic/ Energy damage. Deflection through it.

[Jimvinny]

First off, I have no clue what you're talking about. Shadow aren't a liability as tanks at any gear level, except for sub-30 leveling wherein they don't have the full suite of tank stats and self heals that they need to be effective. The only way that you could possibly be a liability to your group is if you're simply a bad Shadow, by which I mean one that doesn't use their CDs, lets KW drop off without reapplying immediately, and has no idea what the proper attack priority is. If you *do* know fight mechanics, use your CDs properly, and use your attacks correctly, a Shadow tank is going to be amazing at 50.

 

Secondly, yes, Shadows take more damage than the other 2 tanks and have spikier incoming damage. That's a well known fact based upon how they were designed (low DR and heavy reliance on def/shield/abs). However, it *should* be just as well known that a Shadow will require *less healing* than indicated by their damage taken by virtue of their self heals making up the damage-taken gap more than enough. In fact, a well played Shadow is going to require less healing from healers in most situations thanks to having the best overall mitigation and CDs.

 

 

 

I've never had a single problem with Toth on my Shadow, nor any other boss. In fact, I have an easier time of running pretty much every boss I've ever run than the Guardians or VGs I've run with. If you don't know how to leverage your CDs (especially if you're packing a use relic, which you should, *especially* for T&Z), yes, you'll have problems, but that's not a problem with the class; that's a problem with your ability to play the class effectively. You don't get to whine about having problems as a tank if you're simply not playing the class effectively.

 

If you're having problems tanking, you may want to consider tweaking your gear. With 27.7k hp, you're devoting a lot of itemization to hp that, honestly, is largely redundant. Switch out some of that Endurance for Absorb to put yourself at ~24k hp and you should have 60% absorb no problem.

 

If you think that self heals are capable of "making up the damage-taken gap more than enough", then I have no idea what YOU are talking about. Yeah, the self heals are cool. but the difference between a shadow's DR and that of a vanguard/guardian are a heck of a lot more than 2.5K worth of heals every 15 seconds.

[Kitru]

If you think that self heals are capable of "making up the damage-taken gap more than enough", then I have no idea what YOU are talking about. Yeah, the self heals are cool. but the difference between a shadow's DR and that of a vanguard/guardian are a heck of a lot more than 2.5K worth of heals every 15 seconds.

 

It's not just a question of DR, especially since it's not like the only difference between Shadows and the other tanks is in DR. It's a question of the combined total mitigation provided by all mitigation mechanisms (re: DR + Defense + Shield + Absorb). Yes, Shadows have the lowest K/E DR, but, in every other category, they have the absolute best (tied with Guardians for highest Defense while having the absolute highest Shield and Absorb outright). DR isn't the only measure of tank capability.

 

And you also are drastically misconstruing exactly how much damage you think you're taking. When you're taking 500 dam/sec post mitigation (which amounts to roughly 2000 dam/sec pre-mitigation), 160 hp/sec amounts to a further 30% reduction in your need to be healed. The additional mitigation differences afforded to Guardians and VGs by virtue of their higher DR really don't make up for that.

 

I assure you, I *do* know what I'm talking about where Shadow tanks and their balance considerations with the other tanks are concerned. I've done a lot of math over a lot of months and have a lot of experience playing all 3 varieties of tanks at 50 solo, in groups, and in ops across the full spectrum. There is no problem with Shadow tank survivability and the self-healing, while not "omg awesome!", more than makes up for the low K/E DR that we have (not like there is much gap since the mitigation stats already do an excellent job of making up for it). A well played Shadow will have no problem surviving any content out there.

[Kajuana]

We soft enrage Zorn. So Toth will beat on 1 tank non-stop the whole fight. If that's me, I get pwned. Deflection and Rakata Absorb cooldown is a bit long to save me.

 

You don't get to whine about having problems as a tank if you're simply not playing the class effectively..

 

Wow, so much hate. I am going to reply kindly to the L2P comments that I do know what I am doing, most of the time. Let's focus the discussion on OP's statement.

 

I completely agree that we take quite a bit more damage than other tank classes.

I think it defines our class, but it's also a bit of nuiance that we need to just live with.

To be honest, your HP regeneration over at least 5 global cooldowns may help a bit with overall healing,

but that's not going to help much to save you from a series of bad rolls that go straight through your shields.

 

Don't tell me there aren't moments when all your cooldowns are blown but somehow you get that unlucky streak of hits that go through your kinetic ward. You stare at your health as it dwindles down whilst the healer scrambles to rescue you. If you say you've never seen this happen before... well, count yourself lucky to have uber healers.

 

As a shadow tank, I see that happen alot more often to me than other tanks because we take more damage in general. To avoid this, I chose the extra HP buffer. As soon as my cooldowns refresh my HP will go straight back up, but when they are down, sometimes I'd be losing more HP than my healer can heal.

 

To that point, my performance is erractic, which makes me a liability. In the perfect world where you have 2 top healers covering your sorry behind, you will be fine. Unfortunately not all of us are so lucky.

Edited November 5, 2012 by Kajuana

[KeyboardNinja]

Don't tell me there aren't moments when all your cooldowns are blown but somehow you get that unlucky streak of hits that go through your kinetic ward. You stare at your health as it dwindles down whilst the healer scrambles to rescue you. If you say you've never seen this happen before... well, count yourself lucky to have uber healers.

 

This doesn't happen that often unless you're stacking HP at the expense of mitigation. If you are actually stacking mitigation (as you should), then the odds of having a single attack blow past your mitigation is about 45%. One hit passing through mitigation is going to be about 4.8k damage pre-mitigation. At 25k HP and 40% DR, you would need at least 9 (arguably 10) consecutive RNG fails to die. The odds of that? 0.091% Oh, and those 9 hits? They're going to require about 18 seconds to go out with boss swing timers in game, so even the worst healer is probably going to land a few big ones between point A and point B.

 

In other words, no I've never stared at my health, watching it dwindling away due to RNG fail. Shadows are perfectly fine in high-end progression. They don't need to be "carried" by good healers, though I will say that they require substantially more skill from both the tank player and the healer player in order to get the full effect. That's not the same as being carried, that's merely a high skill ceiling.

[Kajuana]

One hit passing through mitigation is going to be about 4.8k damage pre-mitigation. .

 

I get hit for 4-5K all the time. A few solid consecutive hits means a rough time for the healer.

 

Like I said, using the soft enrage tactic, me on Toth is alot worse than a guardian/vanguard tank on Toth.

You only have 1 major cooldown to blow on Toth. +2 with biochem. Rakata Medpack and Absorb Adrenal.

After those, it's a meat grind for the healer.

 

Then there are moments when shield just doesn't proc and every roll ends up 1-35.

 

Yeah you can say, "do the usual jumping mechanics".

If so you're opting out the "easy" option for the hard one for the whole group because you can't tank the one mob.

So guess what? I end up off-tanking zorn.

 

I've learned to live with that, but doesn't mean I am going to argue that shadow tanks are "the best" like many of you so proclaim.

[Jimvinny]

It's not just a question of DR, especially since it's not like the only difference between Shadows and the other tanks is in DR. It's a question of the combined total mitigation provided by all mitigation mechanisms (re: DR + Defense + Shield + Absorb). Yes, Shadows have the lowest K/E DR, but, in every other category, they have the absolute best (tied with Guardians for highest Defense while having the absolute highest Shield and Absorb outright). DR isn't the only measure of tank capability.

 

And you also are drastically misconstruing exactly how much damage you think you're taking. When you're taking 500 dam/sec post mitigation (which amounts to roughly 2000 dam/sec pre-mitigation), 160 hp/sec amounts to a further 30% reduction in your need to be healed. The additional mitigation differences afforded to Guardians and VGs by virtue of their higher DR really don't make up for that.

 

I assure you, I *do* know what I'm talking about where Shadow tanks and their balance considerations with the other tanks are concerned. I've done a lot of math over a lot of months and have a lot of experience playing all 3 varieties of tanks at 50 solo, in groups, and in ops across the full spectrum. There is no problem with Shadow tank survivability and the self-healing, while not "omg awesome!", more than makes up for the low K/E DR that we have (not like there is much gap since the mitigation stats already do an excellent job of making up for it). A well played Shadow will have no problem surviving any content out there.

 

Look, clearly you have some experience here. That doesn't mean you have to be so patronizing while trying to impart your knowledge. I've cleared TFB HM with my shadow, I know the class is capable. That doesn't change the point of my OP.

 

Moving on, on the subject of math -those mitigation numbers are all well and good, until you take into consideration that some bosses totally ignore certain types of mitigation. Zorn, for example, or Jarg in KP NiM. these types of fights aren't going away, so tougher content is going to have more of them. Without our mitigation, we're not a whole lot better than a dps who can't really dps.

Edited November 5, 2012 by Jimvinny
spelling

[BlznSmri]

Zorn, for example, or Jarg in KP NiM. these types of fights aren't going away, so tougher content is going to have more of them. Without our mitigation, we're not a whole lot better than a dps who can't really dps.

 

You're complaining about Shadows taking more damage than the other tanks and specifically mention two fights with a lot of Elemental/ Internal damage, which Shadows already have an advantage over the other tanks with their 23% base resistance and Resilience being as godly as it is.

 

If you hadn't noticed, Vanguards are completely ****ed when the damage they take isn't Kinetic/ Energy.

 

Guardians are better suited than Vanguards on T/Z and S/J because of their Blade Storm bubble and Saber Ward and Warding Call being amazing.

[TheBigGregski]

Considering P2-3 of TFB, It looked like damage taken on the outer rim of platforms (i.e. 1 through 8 on dulfy's schematic http://dulfy.net/2012/09/26/the-terror-from-beyondterror-from-beyond-operation-boss-guide/ ) is force/tech, while inner rim is physical. Can anyone confirm that ?

[BlznSmri]

Considering P2-3 of TFB, It looked like damage taken on the outer rim of platforms (i.e. 1 through 8 on dulfy's schematic http://dulfy.net/2012/09/26/the-terror-from-beyondterror-from-beyond-operation-boss-guide/ ) is force/tech, while inner rim is physical. Can anyone confirm that ?

 

Outer circle you're just taking spit damage. Inner circle, depending on which platform you're on, you will take mostly Kinetic.