BW, do you ever plan on addressing DPS Mercs/Commandos PvP-wise?

[foxmob]

Not sure what you say makes sense. Los in this game isn't much of an advantage for ranged, or melee. The only reason why snipers hate los is because they have a huge advantage other ranged don't have when they do have line of sight. While sorcs and mercs don't have that advantage. If a melee is in range to us, then we are also within their line of sight for a leap, pull or other attack. We are also vulnerable to ranged interrupts. Something snipers don't have to deal with.

what I'm saying first is that anybody -- and I mean anybody -- can escape from a ranged attacker. duck behind something. ranged can do it. melee can do it. heals can do it. it's particularly problematic to turret specs (gunnery, lightning, snipers in cover). you're not going to kill them. I'm just saying it's easy to avoid all of their burst.

 

what you need is melee. they take pressure off of ranged. they provide targets for ranged. I laugh my butt of when ranged units try to focus fire my healer. I'll kite 2 mandos around CW mid all day long. snipers don't even try (less mobile).

 

if ranged units -- by themselves -- are capable of dealing with melee, then A) nobody to interrupt/harass heals and ranged and B) nobody dies because they los long before they would eat big burst from other ranged and would certainly get heals before dropping.

 

as for dealing with ranged as is, if it's 2v1, why on earth shouldn't you die to two melee dps? or even a dps and a tank (more cc/interrupts). if it's just your lone gunnery and a smasher, he leaps. you punt. grav. electo+htl. unload on him. you ought to be able to kill him. but you can CERTAINLY escape him. if he gets to you w/o having to use his leap, then good for him. bad for you. that's life. that's the meta. nothing wrong here. I do think it's wrong that you could just stand there and free cast, immune to interrupts or have electro net up for every fight. and yeah, you are pullable. but htl is also on a very short cd (even shorter for medics). so yeah. you can be leapt to. you can punt all but one spec back where he came from (with a root!). do you want entrench on a 2m cd? ok. sure. fine. but entrench on every fight? NO. F that sheeit! it's up to often for (most) snipers as is.

 

 

I'm not exactly sure why all abilities by snipers have to be uninterruptible. Couldn't they make it only certain cover based abilities?

agreed.

Edited June 9, 2013 by foxmob

[Volxen]

Mercs still asking for buffs are a bunch of morons. With the possible exception of pyro the class is OP. Learn to play. I'll give you a hint, if they can't catch you and stunlock you, they can't shut you down.

 

1) Plays on a PVE server

 

2) Thinks mercs are overpowered

 

3) Thinks snipers are overpowered

 

4) Thinks all healers are overpowered

 

5) Lol

[Volxen]

no. they should not be able to keep melee classes perpetually in check...which is what "in check" means. the solution to surviving a ranged attacker is los. ranged can los ranged. no ranged would ever die if they could always los each other. no commando would die to melee if he could call on electro net for every fight. and by the by, if you were granted all the tools that snipers have, you become ANOTHER "hard counter" to every non-stealth melee.

 

So basically, you're ok with marsmanship sniper overshadowing arsenal merc (that is, do everything better) in everything except for electronet? Because electronet is really the only thing unique going for mercs right now, and it's a bit overrated due to its long cooldown. Don't bring up burst, because snipers have just as much if not more.

Edited June 9, 2013 by Volxen

[Volxen]

 

as for dealing with ranged as is, if it's 2v1, why on earth shouldn't you die to two melee dps? or even a dps and a tank (more cc/interrupts). if it's just your lone gunnery and a smasher, he leaps. you punt. grav. electo+htl. unload on him. you ought to be able to kill him. but you can CERTAINLY escape him. if he gets to you w/o having to use his leap, then good for him. bad for you. that's life. that's the meta. nothing wrong here. I do think it's wrong that you could just stand there and free cast, immune to interrupts or have electro net up for every fight. and yeah, you are pullable. but htl is also on a very short cd (even shorter for medics). so yeah. you can be leapt to. you can punt all but one spec back where he came from (with a root!). do you want entrench on a 2m cd? ok. sure. fine. but entrench on every fight? NO. F that sheeit! it's up to often for (most) snipers as is.

 

 

The fact that mercs are always susceptible to interrupts and pulls/leaps is largely why electronet should be on a shorter CD. Mercs don't have cover, and electronet is essentially the one big "get out of jail free" card that mercs have, which is why it should be available more often. It's the one unique thing that mercs bring to the table, and it's CD should be no longer than 60s.

[foxmob]

So basically, you're ok with marsmanship sniper overshadowing arsenal merc (that is, do everything better) in everything except for electronet? Because electronet is really the only thing unique going for mercs right now, and it's a bit overrated due to its long cooldown. Don't bring up burst, because snipers have just as much if not more.

 

no dude. I said entrench is too powerful to be up for every fight -- that was for everybody. not just mercs.

 

here's stuff that I think mandos/mercs should get:

• restore 30m range on their stun
  
• either an instant mezz or make tech override on a short 30s or 40s cd.
  
• reactive shield should be able to spec into uninterruptable (like medic) for gunnery, but it should not be available more than once every 2m.
  
• electro net most definitely should NOT get a shorter cd. I wouldn't object to an extra second or two of effect/tick on it. or maybe just make it unbreakable (I believe you can break the snare effect but not the dmg?)
  

 

what I think is absolutely daft is something like entrench. think about it: 20s of complete CC immunity....up again in as short as 40s? that's really lazy game design. it just is. electro net was great game design. you have to think about when/how to use it. hold the line as well cuz its effect is so short. entrench? no. you see a melee. pop entrench. channel. kill. maybe drop an aoe on yourself. i understand mercs and sorcs WANTING that. as mando, I WANT that abil too. but it's a bogus abil. or, rather, it's a bogus cd and a bogus up time. they can already negate leaps and pulls without ever popping entrench.

[PerinnAybara]

So you agree that if snipers are the model ranged class, then mercs would be need to be buffed.

 

But since they aren't, your target is different.

[Volxen]

So you agree that if snipers are the model ranged class, then mercs would be need to be buffed.

 

Yes, that is exactly what I am saying. Snipers are the model ranged class in this game. Mercs fall behind.

Edited June 10, 2013 by Volxen

[foxmob]

So you agree that if snipers are the model ranged class, then mercs would be need to be buffed.

 

But since they aren't, your target is different.

 

both gunnery and (2/3) snipers are turret spec. they have tools specifically designed to remain immobile and cast/channel (kb prevention, space makers/roots, stuns, stealth detection, etc.). the difference between them isn't so much that one has better cds than the other (debatable because of trade offs). the difference is that snipers have their best cds available on almost every encounter. no class in the game should have that advantage. especially not if the effect last more than a few seconds.

 

really. I mean adrenaline rush and reactive shield are relatively weak dcds. give them to me on 30s/40s cds, and I'll make tactics look op. I don't think that's how the game should be played. cds on major, none dps abils -- especially dcds -- need to be spread out. you're supposed to die. the game should come down to who manages cds best. when to use them and when not to. ppl complained to death about that with one lousy breaker but don't see it in all the stalemates across every WZ?

 

if there are things that snipers have that mandos legitimately should have, they have have to do with range and cast time (cryo, mezz). in lieu of an uber immunity cd, mandos have heals, but those heals are worthless in a fight outside of popping tech override + med droid. ok. so reduce the cd on tech override. now you can use that "extra med pac" heal more practically AND it forces the mando to make a decision: do I heal? do I use for instant mezz to try an escape? or do I try to burst him down and use it for grav/plasma/etc.? enrich the encounter. don't dumb it down.

[funkiestj]

personally, I think mando healing is fine in 2.0. I would rather see scoundrels nerfed (which will get me flamed), but think about it: healing is already too high in 2.0.

 

TANGENT: I'd love to hear <Mr.Metrics@Bioware.com> give us a presentation on healing an time to kill in 2.x rated WZ for teams in the top 30 percentile. Are they meeting their TTK targets

Edited June 10, 2013 by funkiestj

[funkiestj]

in ranked, net is something you do to a healer before he can use his escape. thus, he's already being pressured, and there's no secret that he's being focused. basically, it's the anti-barrier device. as such, I think it's highly effective. it also keeps sins/ops from combat stealth while trying to delay a node. very valuable imo. in regs, it's a guaranteed kill for any dps dumb enough to follow me into isolation.

 

note to self: foxmob has a clue. someone else does not.

 

electro-net's power in rated WZ is not about the damage it does, it is the utility , as foxmob points out.

[Volxen]

note to self: foxmob has a clue. someone else does not.

 

electro-net's power in rated WZ is not about the damage it does, it is the utility , as foxmob points out.

 

Why are you stating the obvious? Everyone understands that it's a utility ability. The point is that it should be on a shorter CD.

[cashogy_reborn]

TANGENT: I'd love to hear <Mr.Metrics@Bioware.com> give us a presentation on healing an time to kill in 2.x rated WZ for teams in the top 30 percentile. Are they meeting their TTK targets

 

id love to see a bevy of metrics for ranked in general. % of class comp make-ups, average class DPS, protection, healing, etc. the whole nine yards.

 

we will never see them tho. and i doubt the devs use them.

[Macroeconomics]

id love to see a bevy of metrics for ranked in general. % of class comp make-ups, average class DPS, protection, healing, etc. the whole nine yards. we will never see them tho. and i doubt the devs use them.

 

I have no doubt that the statistics are collected and do exist. I don't think they pay attention to all of them though. They clearly value some much more than others. The other big unknown for us as customers of this game, is who at BW ultimately has responsibility for digesting and interpreting the statistics. Is it all done by Peckenpaugh? One is lead to believe so, but we really don't know...

[Hxxr]

Why are you stating the obvious? Everyone understands that it's a utility ability. The point is that it should be on a shorter CD.

 

Electro-Net is a damage ability, the DPS, DPET & DPR are all exceptional, which is probably why it has such a long cooldown. A cut in damage by ~20% for a 1 minute cooldown would help in all regards though.

 

Anyway, the issue to me still is interrupts and Mercs, for both Arsenal and Pyrotech being locked out of your one ability that everything else is based upon is a lot closer to a stun than it should be.

[Jherad]

Electro-Net is a damage ability, the DPS, DPET & DPR are all exceptional, which is probably why it has such a long cooldown. A cut in damage by ~20% for a 1 minute cooldown would help in all regards though.

 

Anyway, the issue to me still is interrupts and Mercs, for both Arsenal and Pyrotech being locked out of your one ability that everything else is based upon is a lot closer to a stun than it should be.

 

Yeah, I\m pretty sure most of us would trade electronet damage for a shorter cooldown in a HEARTBEAT.

[PerinnAybara]

Less than a heartbeat really.

[cashogy_reborn]

imo, get rid of the damage from electronet entirely if that is why the cooldown is so long. its the effect that we want, the damage is irrelevant.

[ToMyMa]

imo, get rid of the damage from electronet entirely if that is why the cooldown is so long. its the effect that we want, the damage is irrelevant.

 

Noooooooooaaaaaw! I love to see someone die due to moving around AFTER they killed me when they attacked me at 50% hp

[funkiestj]

Noooooooooaaaaaw! I love to see someone die due to moving around AFTER they killed me when they attacked me at 50% hp

 

I don't think PvE players would like cash's EN++ so if BW did this at all it would be something you spec into, presumably on a low skill tree tier so any spec could get it.

[foxmob]

Noooooooooaaaaaw! I love to see someone die due to moving around AFTER they killed me when they attacked me at 50% hp

 

lol. I used to kite kill ppl (pre 2.0) all the time with one plasma, 1-2 hib's and the rest hammer shots, but not every class and never the best players of any class. when I got electro net, though...omg! the best players on the server were in trouble if I had all my cds up. the dmg you can deal with net (including what you do while they're snared) is crazy. by the time the snare effect ends, they're down around 45%-30% (depending on crits from mortor volley, hib, etc). I can literally face tank and hammer shot most ppl at that point. (and net didn't do a darn thing to their resolve!) so yeah. the dmg aspect of net is awesome, but it's a ridiculously powerful ability. and that's not even using it in an organized fashion to neutralize the other team's healer.

 

I would definitely miss baiting dps heroes into isolation and then netting them for an easy kill, but just the snare on a short cd is reasonable. remember though, you're still a turret in gunnery. so it's only gonna give you a quick grav and maybe a series of instants...maybe catch them in FA as net is breaking.

[PerinnAybara]

Well don't completely remove the damage. It completely destroys marauders through undying rage.

[MarkXXIV]

im back after 2-3months. are merc balanced for pvp now? how are sorc and assassin?(i only care about dps spec)

[foxmob]

im back after 2-3months. are merc balanced for pvp now? how are sorc and assassin?(i only care about dps spec)

 

all of the turret classes got buffs. you still want to roll sniper though. grav/tracer is viable, but they're mostly optional for a rated team (better to have a healer than a gunnery for the net). I think the telekinetic sage is more dangerous, but they're easier to push into barrier/kill. basically, if you roll gunnery or telekinetics, you have a viable spec now, but you're going to continue to be supremely jealous of all the toys snipers get. for example, in hb, your teammate is in the pit and you want to give him a leap target or pass, you pop htl at the edge of endzone. that gives you a handful of seconts where you can't be punted or pulled away. cool right? yeah. it's neat. then you'll see a sniper do fundamentally the same thing, but he's got 20s on entrench on the ledge and then you watch in agony as he uses his "roll" to blink into the endzone. ah bw...heh.

[MarkXXIV]

glad i got the most out of 2x a while back. made 2 lv 50s lol. time to get back on my sniper.( if the game ever finishes downloading). Edited June 15, 2013 by MarkXXIV

[foxmob]

if you don't care about getting into a rated team, pick whichever AC you prefer. you'll be plenty effective in regs. plus, I'd rather not think I helped make another sniper.