Stupid F2P Restrictions

[LordArtemis]

Now this is interesting.

 

It has been said since the beginning of developer interviews that there isn't a sandbox experience offered here. In fact on these forums Georg Zoeller was very very specific about that. I take it that you've been playing since the beginning and you KNEW that going into buying the game.

 

Now because of that it hardly seems fair that you'd expect this game to offer you sandbox elements when they never intended to? It would be completely different if they said they were going to make a sandbox game and tricked you into buying this one. I'd love mini games like Pazzak or Sabbac but since the game never offered it - and never promised to- I can't really be angry about it.

 

Perhaps then you have to wonder if you are the target audience for this game. Let me clarify that and state that it's perfectly ok to dislike the game and if you find yourself in this group the game may not have been made to suit you. Nothing EA/Bioware does will appease you if you do not enjoy this type of game. In fact your feedback is specifically not useful because you were never their intended audience and in most cases the suggestions are just radical reworkings of the game play mechanics.

 

I would have to disagree with that statement. Naturally I am not expecting nor demanding they add those features I enjoy, but yes I think it would make the product more valuable to me.

 

As I indicated, making it F2P for the storyline makes it valuable enough to me not only to play on a regular basis probably, but also spend money on it.

 

Currently it is not valuable enough for me to regularly sub for it. You make a fair point that I may not be the original target audience, but I contend that perhaps it is also true that target audience never materialized in the numbers that Bioware and EA had hoped, and perhaps it would be best for the best for the game to broaden it's appeal.

 

I think F2P is the first step in that process. I do not think the suggestions I make, like the ones in my sig, are radical reworkings of the game's mechanics, but that much is admittingly debatable....its just my opinion of course.

 

I would make the contention that the current playerbase that feels that game is fine as is is not the level of players the game needed or wanted, therefore they have decided to go free to play. By definition that means those that are happy with the status quo are a minority, most definitely of the original subbed players, and possibly of the subscriber targets...

 

So that means the target may have and probably has changed.

Edited October 18, 2012 by LordArtemis

[Tim-ONeil]

Agreed 100%. Not because of the cost (subbed for Lotro for way too many years), but more perhaps the time. I can not play for weeks at a time, similar to yourself, so why be paying for something I'm not using etc?

 

Also have little interest in end game and raiding...used to many many years ago...but grown out of that now. Besides in most MMO's, end game gear is only good for a few months, then the grind starts again lol..why bother?

 

And yes, perhaps you are right. The story is the main pull, and maybe as long as they don't make the other restrictions to harsh regarding 'that aspect' of the game, it could work. Time will tell I guess. Would I stay purely for the story content? yes I would. is there enough of other things inbetween waiting for that to justify a sub? Sadly no.

 

Will I spend a fortune in the store on fluff and cosmetics etc? Sure I will, if the game itself is worthy of me spending time in it.

 

And this is the problem. I seriously believe that people hold this game to a higher standard than any other out there and it's perplexing. It's not about I play because I enjoy it- clearly you wouldn't be subscribed and posting here if you didn't- but it's more about how can you justify me paying for it?

 

So the question is what in the world makes you believe that this game specifically needs to 'do more' to get you to pay for it? Is it schadenfreude, bias towards your favorite game, unrealistic expectations? It's kind of interesting to see people constantly talk about their favorite game which always happens to be a small niche game with many less subscribers than this one as the model they should be striving towards.

 

While there are flaws in every game, I believe this is the flaw in the community. We can't judge anything on it's own merits. It's always this isn't enough like x, too much like y, and I can't believe they aren't bending over backwards to get me to sub. If you have that attitude nothing except the game that you hold in nostalgic esteem will ever satisfy you.

 

This takes us back to the root of the problem with this thread that has been hammered over and over. All of these complaints, demands, etc come back to one issue. You don't want to pay for this game and you want full access to it- because even if you claim to hate it you want to play it. In fact you might have even deluded yourself that the F2P model would allow you to do that. Is that realistic?

[LordArtemis]

And this is the problem. I seriously believe that people hold this game to a higher standard than any other out there and it's perplexing. It's not about I play because I enjoy it- clearly you wouldn't be subscribed and posting here if you didn't- but it's more about how can you justify me paying for it?

 

So the question is what in the world makes you believe that this game specifically needs to 'do more' to get you to pay for it? Is it schadenfreude, bias towards your favorite game, unrealistic expectations? It's kind of interesting to see people constantly talk about their favorite game which always happens to be a small niche game with many less subscribers than this one as the model they should be striving towards.

 

While there are flaws in every game, I believe this is the flaw in the community. We can't judge anything on it's own merits. It's always this isn't enough like x, too much like y, and I can't believe they aren't bending over backwards to get me to sub. If you have that attitude nothing except the game that you hold in nostalgic esteem will ever satisfy you.

 

This takes us back to the root of the problem with this thread that has been hammered over and over. All of these complaints, demands, etc come back to one issue. You don't want to pay for this game and you want full access to it- because even if you claim to hate it you want to play it. In fact you might have even deluded yourself that the F2P model would allow you to do that. Is that realistic?

 

You make some good points and arguments naturally, so I would ask you this...do you feel the game can improve, and do you feel the game should, in it's present state, garner more subs than it currently does?

 

I would agree with you that the game does not get credit where it is due if that is a contention you are making.

[yoshua]

Yeah a few I'd like to point out that I've not seen in other F2P games before.

 

A restriction on Death for F2P users, this isn't going to go down well, after 5 deaths you have to purchase a license to stop dying at the nearest point.

 

Sprint at level 1 disabled?

 

Purchase a weekly pass for flash points, nobody does flash points enough for you to provide it as a weekly pass?

 

Emergency fleet pass restrictions, gotta pay money to get an 18 hour cool down, good luck with that.

 

You might as well start charging people 50 cartel coins to login, or 50 cartel coins to buy an item from a vendor or to be able to sell.

 

Some of the features are stupid and you will get nothing but public out roar over it. Yes, I'm well aware some people can live without these features.

 

But i don't like it and im paying user who's been subscribed since release and i think some of these free to play changes are ridiculous, it's gotten to the point that the cash shop won't just be a content / cosmetic feature, but you people at Bioware will force new players to pay for most of the ground up features that are free in other games, so good luck with this plan because if you go through with it, it will most likely fail.

 

 

 

1- Don't die? lol. Seriously if you are dieing more than 5 times in a game session without using a med center you are doing something wrong.

 

2- Sprint at level 1 is worth whining about? Anyone who has been around since launch levelled characters with no sprint until 10+ anyways.

 

3-The flash points are allowed for 3 times per week before a pass is needed. This is for people running dailies to get black hole comms. If you only do this 3 times a week it doesnt affect you, if you do it every day? consider subscribing.

 

4- Emergency Fleet pass is a convenience. lol, another non game breaking change. get on a speeder and go to the shuttle. Most people do it this way anyways unless you have the ce/security key vendor editions and get the extra passes from the vendor

 

5- free to play is free to play. if you want to play the whole game why shouldnt EA be making money off of you? subscribe to the game, pay the money, get the access. Free to play does not entitle you to have all the benefits that people who pay a monthly sub get. if you want all the benefits? get a subscription lol

 

6- if you are a paying user? continue to pay and absolutely nothing changes for you. if you decide to stop paying a company for services rendered, expect the services to stop. at this point EA is still allowing you to play their game even though you don't want to pay them a dime. lol

[Urael]

...do you feel the game can improve, and do you feel the game should, in it's present state, garner more subs than it currently does?

 

It can improve. Will it? That remains to be seen. Much work needs to be done on the PvP side of this game to make PvP compelling and actually have and effect on the galaxy at large (think bonuses for capturing nodes galaxywide type thing). The "new" illum may be sign of things to come. We have to wait and see this coming January.

 

... the game does not get credit where it is due ...

 

Overall I like the game. I am very disappointed though now that I have played it for so long (since prelaunch). It's great for leveling alts. It's meh for end game. It's OK for end game but it's just meh. It doesn't "WoW" me.

Edited October 18, 2012 by Urael

[Tim-ONeil]

You make some good points and arguments naturally, so I would ask you this...do you feel the game can improve, and do you feel the game should, in it's present state, garner more subs than it currently does?

 

I would agree with you that the game does not get credit where it is due if that is a contention you are making.

 

For sure. The foundation of this game is a perfect starting point for future content and additions and judged on what we have alone only the player's own mindset is working against them.

 

If you log into the fleet and decide there's nothing really to do and log off that's on you. I went through that stage for about 1 week back in June before I reminded myself that is a motivation problem, not a game problem and I started to PVP again. Lots of people can't make the distinction. This is why we hear the 'there's no content' bs that's constantly repeated.

 

Most of the constructive complaints that are posted here are things that will be naturally addressed over time it's just people expect that it has everything they want for day 1 and that's not realistic.

 

Additionally as I mentioned there is a large segment of the people that initially bought the game that are not the target audience because for whatever reason they don't enjoy this style of game. You can tell who these people are because when they post their suggestions about tweaks to the game it becomes a complete game overhaul to fit their own development dreams. That's not realistic or useful feedback and really these aren't people Bioware can ever win back as customers. The game just wasn't designed to be fun for them.

[DirtyDusty]

Beggars can't be choosers.

[Urael]

Beggars can't be choosers.

 

A succinct and pithy comment that describes F2P perfectly.

[LordArtemis]

For sure. The foundation of this game is a perfect starting point for future content and additions and judged on what we have alone only the player's own mindset is working against them.

 

If you log into the fleet and decide there's nothing really to do and log off that's on you. I went through that stage for about 1 week back in June before I reminded myself that is a motivation problem, not a game problem and I started to PVP again. Lots of people can't make the distinction. This is why we hear the 'there's no content' bs that's constantly repeated.

 

Most of the constructive complaints that are posted here are things that will be naturally addressed over time it's just people expect that it has everything they want for day 1 and that's not realistic.

 

Additionally as I mentioned there is a large segment of the people that initially bought the game that are not the target audience because for whatever reason they don't enjoy this style of game. You can tell who these people are because when they post their suggestions about tweaks to the game it becomes a complete game overhaul to fit their own development dreams. That's not realistic or useful feedback and really these aren't people Bioware can ever win back as customers. The game just wasn't designed to be fun for them.

 

I really cant argue against that point. I would only say that, in my opinion, feedback from the audience that is not a current target may be more useful now than in the past since the game will likely have a much wider appeal going free to play.

 

I might also argue that it is possible to gain those players back by increasing the value of the game in it's current state...and that value, IMO, is definitely increased with the F2P transition.

[Maviarab]

Galba...

 

Loved the Ip since I watched the original film at the 'flicks' as we called it back then...

 

IP alone does not make a game...well..it can..but said game also needs to be worth playing for the IP to keep you.

 

@Tim..

 

Niche game? Lotro has far more subbers than this game ever had. And again, that 'can' be played, in its entirety, from start to finish, for free...if you put the time and effort in....they they still have huge sub numbers...

 

Not that niche after all eh?

Edited October 18, 2012 by Maviarab

[ObiJuanShenobi]

Yeah a few I'd like to point out that I've not seen in other F2P games before.

 

A restriction on Death for F2P users, this isn't going to go down well, after 5 deaths you have to purchase a license to stop dying at the nearest point.

 

Sprint at level 1 disabled?

 

Purchase a weekly pass for flash points, nobody does flash points enough for you to provide it as a weekly pass?

 

Emergency fleet pass restrictions, gotta pay money to get an 18 hour cool down, good luck with that.

 

You might as well start charging people 50 cartel coins to login, or 50 cartel coins to buy an item from a vendor or to be able to sell.

 

Some of the features are stupid and you will get nothing but public out roar over it. Yes, I'm well aware some people can live without these features.

 

But i don't like it and im paying user who's been subscribed since release and i think some of these free to play changes are ridiculous, it's gotten to the point that the cash shop won't just be a content / cosmetic feature, but you people at Bioware will force new players to pay for most of the ground up features that are free in other games, so good luck with this plan because if you go through with it, it will most likely fail.

 

AWWWW. POOR GUY!

 

How about you just sub and not have to deal with it? The entire F2P (and every F2P MMO's that ever existed) model is a cash sink anyway, you end up spending more than a sub does just to get half of the perks.

[Tim-ONeil]

To add to my last point these games (MMOs) mature over time. This is a new game and the tons and tons of content that people want takes time to grow. No matter what your favorite game is it didn't launch with the same features it has today... they were added over time. The current gamer doesn't have the attention span to understand that though and has many different games to choose from that allow them to game hop around.

 

That's a community issue since it's completely out of the game companies control. Games 'mature' over time, gamers apparently do the opposite.

[Urael]

To add to my last point these games (MMOs) mature over time. This is a new game and the tons and tons of content that people want takes time to grow. No matter what your favorite game is it didn't launch with the same features it has today... they were added over time. The current gamer doesn't have the attention span to understand that though and has many different games to choose from that allow them to game hop around.

 

That's a community issue since it's completely out of the game companies control. Games 'mature' over time, gamers apparently do the opposite.

 

Indeed.

[Maviarab]

To add to my last point these games (MMOs) mature over time. This is a new game and the tons and tons of content that people want takes time to grow. No matter what your favorite game is it didn't launch with the same features it has today... they were added over time. The current gamer doesn't have the attention span to understand that though and has many different games to choose from that allow them to game hop around.

 

That's a community issue since it's completely out of the game companies control. Games 'mature' over time, gamers apparently do the opposite.

 

But surely, if you were making an MMO from scratch now, looking at all the competition, and knowing how fickle gamers are...

 

You would make sure certain things were in from day 1? Is that not logical? Knowing what your competition is doing? Like making a new car without electric windows or a cd player..saying, well we are new, it will come maybe next year.

 

People are not so stupid as to not realise that MMO's grow over time, and content is patched in over time, but when basic MMO features that the majority of other games have, are not in a 'new' MMO...well...

[Andryah]

To add to my last point these games (MMOs) mature over time. This is a new game and the tons and tons of content that people want takes time to grow. No matter what your favorite game is it didn't launch with the same features it has today... they were added over time. The current gamer doesn't have the attention span to understand that though and has many different games to choose from that allow them to game hop around.

 

That's a community issue since it's completely out of the game companies control. Games 'mature' over time, gamers apparently do the opposite.

 

Very well stated.

[Jacen_Starsolo]

One restriction that actually works in the free players favor is the limited number of the dumbed down space missions they can do. They will not see it as fast how pathetic the space missions are in this game.

[LordArtemis]

Im not so concerned about the death restriction. This game is actually ahead of the market in that respect IMO. The sprint thing is a bit silly, since almost every game on the market allows you to run at level one, but....and this is a big one...is the current sprint faster than most games run, or is it the same? I really don't know. It feels faster, but that means next to nothing.

 

If they offer speeder rentals in the cash shop (like I hope they do), the ability to unlock sprint and allow speeder purchases in the cash shop as well I really feel the issue is moot.

[Tim-ONeil]

@Tim..

 

Niche game? Lotro has far more subbers than this game ever had. And again, that 'can' be played, in its entirety, from start to finish, for free...if you put the time and effort in....they they still have huge sub numbers...

 

Not that niche after all eh?

 

Actually you'd have to prove that statement. According to this, you'd be way way off base.

 

http://users.telenet.be/mmodata/Charts/Subs-2.png

 

If SWTOR has the low estimate of 500k it's solidly above LOTRO and possible double or triple the sub numbers they supposedly show.

 

Anyone can make facts up but you have to have actual evidence to back your LOTRO statement. SWTOR and WoW have investor calls where they have to give out the number of subs. Many other games do not and never get the 'negative' press SWTOR does when they lose subs because... no one really knows about it.

[JaguarAzteca]

The truth is that no Western company has done F2P right. The masters of F2P are the Koreans like Nexon and NCSoft. EA/Bio should learn from them

[Andryah]

The sprint thing is a bit silly, since almost every game on the market allows you to run at level one, but....and this is a big one...is the current sprint faster than most games run, or is it the same? I really don't know. It feels faster, but that means next to nothing.

 

I disagree, and here is why...

 

When the game launched, you could walk or run, just like every other MMO in history. Sprint at level 10, which was a speed boost over running, was a quality of life perk to tide you over until you could get a speeder at 25. Over time, they made sprint at level 1, so people running alts would feel less tedium (that was a quality of life improvement for subscribers).

 

Sprint is definitely something that a free player should have to unlock with coins as far as I am concerned. It is not needed to play the content, it just makes it a bit more convenient (which frankly is true of the free player death penalty as well). You don't give free players the quality of life perks that subscribers get.... you make free players pay to unlock them. That is basic freemium mechanics in MMOs.

Edited October 18, 2012 by Andryah

[Maviarab]

Being owned now by Warner Brothers, I'm sure it is very similar in the way it operates as a business...

 

But having played the game on and off since release, and my own personal experience playing the game since it went F2P....it has very very healthy sub numbers, far outweighing the F2P players...

 

Regardless of whatever a website may say.

 

That brings us back to cost. WoW is still subbed base, they are not really suffering....thus making the cost issue completely moot. The game is the problem.

 

@Andryah

 

On the sprint issue, can't say it's really bothered me too much either way so far, half the time I forget I even have a speeder and run everywhere lol. But are we discussing the 'extra' ability here? Lord Artemis is correct, every game out there gives you a sprint ability pretty much so...

 

Is it a quality of life feature, or more now an accepted feature? If you are talking about the toggle skill, then I still don't see why it should be a paid for item, are we going to charged CC for buying skills from our trainer now at every level up?

 

This is the basic simple things, that should just be given to a player...not to be paid for, the game needs to keep people in it, not turn them off with having to buy basic stuff every other game gives them just because EA is all about teh moneyz

Edited October 18, 2012 by Maviarab

[Simbr]

I think its a good thing that f2p wont get sprint at lvl 1, we used to have to wait till lvl 14. Plus if they can't sprint they will be even easier to gank!

[Jacen_Starsolo]

The truth is that no Western company has done F2P right. The masters of F2P are the Koreans like Nexon and NCSoft. EA/Bio should learn from them

 

NCSoft? Hardly. You might mean ArenaNet who does it in spite of NCSoft. CoX is proof that NCSoft is clueless as far as F2P goes. ArenaNet basically does it without NCSoft being involved in the operations.

 

NCSoft hands on operation = CoX (died less than a year after going F2P after being around even before WoW)

 

NCSoft hands off operation = GW and GW2

 

Nuff said

[Tim-ONeil]

But surely, if you were making an MMO from scratch now, looking at all the competition, and knowing how fickle gamers are...

 

You would make sure certain things were in from day 1? Is that not logical? Knowing what your competition is doing? Like making a new car without electric windows or a cd player..saying, well we are new, it will come maybe next year.

 

People are not so stupid as to not realise that MMO's grow over time, and content is patched in over time, but when basic MMO features that the majority of other games have, are not in a 'new' MMO...well...

 

Honestly it wouldn't matter. You could launch the 'perfect' game and people would still not be happy with it for all the reasons I got into before. Group finder was a HUGE hot topic issue with people at launch, they added it and rather than being satisfied they just started complaining about something else. It's a no win cycle.

 

Go take a look at the GW2 forum and see how they are reacting to the game several months in. The tune has changed dramatically as it has for all new games. The only difference is that they don't have active subscriptions so if you bought the game you are a subscriber for life and they won't have a negative press backlash because they don't report active subscribers when most of their audience moves on in a few months.

Edited October 18, 2012 by Tim-ONeil

[LordArtemis]

It is correct to contend that the subs for LotRO seem to have dropped to around 250k early this year from a high of over 500k players last year. Turbine claims that subs are on the rise again, but have not released solid numbers yet for this point in the year.