What was BioWare's reasoning for not allowing damage meters and add-ons?

[Lium]

I know this has been discussed before, and I never really paid much attention to it because damage meters and add-ons were never really anything I cared for. I was always more of a PvP guy and hated raiding so topping damage meters or downloading add-ons that basically played your character for you never appealed to me.

 

However, as a sentinel, I've noticed a few things while running FPs. I should also mention that I'm currently level 41, so still have a bit of a ways before getting to 50. Just wanted to make that clear.

 

But in SWTOR, I often see a big gap in performance sometimes which I know can be attributed to a variety of things. And sometimes I seem to be the only one pulling my weight in a group, while other times I seem to be really lagging behind the other DPS. For example, while doing a Colicoid run, we had a DPS sage that was just tearing it up. I would literally force leap to a target, hit it like one time, and it'd be dead from a sage nuke.

 

I'm certainly no pro but I like to think I can hold my own in a group as far as DPS goes. But that's just it. I don't know what my DPS is. I just have to gauge my own performance by how I feel I'm doing while running an FP. And while I can get an idea of how things are going, some hard data would definitely be helpful.

 

To that end, I'm wondering what BW's final word was on damage meters or at least personal combat logs so players can see how they are doing. I know damage meters can sometimes encourage really bad behavior, but I'm only talking about personal use for me. Because I always want to make sure I'm pulling my fare share and not slacking off in groups. If my DPS is too low, I need to know what I can do to fix it.

 

Obviously, the add-on question is related to this since that's what damage meters usually are.

[Lostpenguins]

Basically, damage meters are handled via outside parsers such as MOX. BW allows for reading the combat logs, but you need a 3rd party program to then compile the data for you (this is standard in MMO's).

 

The only big difference is BW doesn't want you reading everyone's meters unless those people are also willing to share, which would then require your group to sync their meters via a set-up config in MOX (or other 3rd party program). I suppose they're tired of people who use the meters in inappropriate ways by flashing the numbers at others who may be under-performing as a way to bully them.

 

In the end, that's fine. The people who want to use it to raid together all use it together and most guilds that would drop someone for poor dps performances would require everyone to use it anyhow so it's not like someone who isn't up to par could hide under the radar in a guild raid to begin with.

[Arkerus]

Generally speaking, bioware's stance is that functionality that proves to be vital to gameplay will be coded and bundled into the standard GUI or provided to the player through some standard format (e.g. The combat log).

 

I completely agree with them. Yes, I do. If something is so vital it is required to play the game on the same level as everyone else then it will be a standard offering.

 

I got sick of constantly updating my add ons in WoW. Every patch was a mess of addons and error codes. Not only that, but add ons that report data for people around you lead to an elitist and entitled mindset where only the folks that can perform at a near perfect level are taken for raids, operations, etc.

 

It shifted the focus from a hand UP mindset to a "me first" mindset. Mods in wow created giant rifts in the community as it supplied information without context.

 

I have raided, successfully, more in this game than I EVER did in WoW. This includes NM and HMs. Our guild has never once needed an add on so we could place blame on someone. We were successful as a team. And when we weren't successful, we failed as a team. I am not in a guild that requires people email their combat logs. We are a team, not a bunch of individuals acting together.

 

I never, ever want to see the data supplied to the front end where you can parse and then lay blame on other people.

Edited October 9, 2012 by Arkerus

[Yogol]

I got sick of constantly updating my add ons in WoW.

 

Yes, but that is because you had to use 3rd party software. If Blizzard would provide that sort of tools themselves, you wouldn't have this problem.

 

I never, ever want to see the data supplied to the front end where you can parse and then lay blame on other people.

 

True, people like to play the blame game.

 

But I personally saw these tools as a way to improve myselve. How can I know if I am a good DPSer or a good healer if I can't compare myself with others?

 

If I would make a MMO, I would have some basic tools in the game to help people get better. Like a some sort of meter that shows how you did in a dungeon and also showed how other players with your class did in other groups. Or a meter that shows your DPS and the other people's DPS, but not their names.

 

In SWTOR, all you can do is see people's gear and hope for the best. I remember the first FP HM here. Someone inspected my gear and said ''yes, she's ready for HM''. I was like ''but, but... I got no clue what to do''.

 

Bottom line, that type of tools can make people become better players.

[Quraswren]

Damage meters was always a double-edged sword.

 

Some people honestly used them to get better and help others that needed to get better.

 

Others used them as a justification to abuse other players in any number of ways.

 

BW made it a little more difficult to use but they are there now if you really want to know your numbers.

 

As far as addons to some degree they are really great.

 

Some took it too far and took away from the actual game play. Things like DBM (dealy boss mods) Suddenly you didn't have to keep up with things in the fights. The addons did it for you. Some kept up with timers and some told you when to move. Hell, at one point some showed you were to go and stand and had to be banned entirely later on.

 

Some addons were really nice for convenience but addon developers eventually took it too far.

 

Suddenly you started to have certain addons to raid. Some addons you had to have for specific fights.

 

At one point (and I'll use WOW here) blizzard said they had to start designing content around the use of addons to offset there usefulness. Now you can't really raid at all without them cause the fights are designed with the idea you have them.

 

Overall, to many cons for the pros.

 

I think BW could adjust the code to only allow certain access to the API and limit what addons could do but people will grip about that as well.

 

Leaving them out entirely and only adding in what they deem needed through BW's own UI updates is OK for now.

 

But I would still love a mouse over macro.

Edited October 9, 2012 by Quraswren

[odericko]

I'm glad they're out, personally. From what I saw on other games (WoW mostly) they brought more negativity than anything. And they were a pain to keep updated and such.

[Khevar]

I personally really like using mox for myself, and I encourage others to do it. I can see how it could be abused, but luckily I haven't run into a group that did that.

 

The only time we've required mox was early on doing HM T/Z where we kept hitting enrage. We didn't use it to kick though, but we did identify where were low on dps, and that player was able to improve their rotation so that we could beat the instance.

 

I really don't mind using a 3rd party tool, though it's a shame when the dev stops working on it, like swmonitor.

[Foambreaker]

Ever been in a game just for fun, and all of a sudden someone gets all upset?

 

Then another person says, "Since when did we start keeping score?"

 

As soon as everything is tracked and measured it becomes nothing but a peen contest, the fun is gone.

 

That entire meta game rat race is one thing I really don't miss about WoW.

 

 

Going to the OPs post, if we had meters, the person who was percieved to be "under performing" would get ****/kicked.

 

How fun is that!

[Lostpenguins]

I completely agree with them. Yes, I do. If something is so vital it is required to play the game on the same level as everyone else then it will be a standard offering.

I agree, no mod is really vital except those already in the game. However, if you're guild uses VOIP then you're using a 3rd party program outside of the game that gives you advantage over just using the built in UI. Having the ability to communicate "Player X it's your turn to interrupt" in a fraction of the time it takes to type it out, and all with the press of one button, is the most useful add-on in any game.

 

I got sick of constantly updating my add ons in WoW. Every patch was a mess of addons and error codes.

I agree to this, but that's something WoW tried to get around my helping codes be aware of changes and giving them the PTS so that on launch day, it was seemless.

 

Not only that, but add ons that report data for people around you lead to an elitist and entitled mindset where only the folks that can perform at a near perfect level are taken for raids, operations, etc....

And now we get into the age-old debate of "Should there be meters or not". I understand the brow-beating people get when they're damage is subpar, but you need to evaluate the performance of your team. If there's a weak-link, it must be addressed. I've seen fellow guildies in my rage doing half my dps. And then we enrage on the boss. Over and over again. If I didn't have damage meters, how are we supposed to address it. In the end, they never worked on fixing their damage issues and I'm now with a guild where people (who play the same class as my previous guildies) do roughly the same dps as me. And, what do you know, we kill stuff. I'm sorry, but the meters didn't lie. My old guildies weren't pulling their weight. You can say it's elitist all you want, but it's hard to improve if you don't see quantifiable values for your performance.

 

I have raided, successfully, more in this game than I EVER did in WoW. This includes NM and HMs. Our guild has never once needed an add on so we could place blame on someone. We were successful as a team. And when we weren't successful, we failed as a team. I am not in a guild that requires people email their combat logs. We are a team, not a bunch of individuals acting together.

1) Raiding in this game is so much easier than it is in WoW.

2) When you say "NM", you mean Nightmare Mode? Also, have you completed EC HM and EM TFB where enrage timers actually got tight? Have you beaten Operator IX on HM? When you cleared these HM's were you severely out-gearing the content (doing EV/KP HM in BH/Campaign gear and/or fully augmented gear)? Just some questions I'd like clarification too when you make a blanket statement of the success of your raids.

 

I never, ever want to see the data supplied to the front end where you can parse and then lay blame on other people.

Sorry, but if I'm in a raid and half the DPS'ers aren't pulling their weight, I want to know. I can't carry the load for others ineptitudes and I don't want to continue wasting my time in a raid or credits on repairs because others don't make the effort to better themselves.

[Rezakh]

I know this has been discussed before, and I never really paid much attention to it because damage meters and add-ons were never really anything I cared for. I was always more of a PvP guy and hated raiding so topping damage meters or downloading add-ons that basically played your character for you never appealed to me.

 

However, as a sentinel, I've noticed a few things while running FPs. I should also mention that I'm currently level 41, so still have a bit of a ways before getting to 50. Just wanted to make that clear.

 

But in SWTOR, I often see a big gap in performance sometimes which I know can be attributed to a variety of things. And sometimes I seem to be the only one pulling my weight in a group, while other times I seem to be really lagging behind the other DPS. For example, while doing a Colicoid run, we had a DPS sage that was just tearing it up. I would literally force leap to a target, hit it like one time, and it'd be dead from a sage nuke.

 

I'm certainly no pro but I like to think I can hold my own in a group as far as DPS goes. But that's just it. I don't know what my DPS is. I just have to gauge my own performance by how I feel I'm doing while running an FP. And while I can get an idea of how things are going, some hard data would definitely be helpful.

 

To that end, I'm wondering what BW's final word was on damage meters or at least personal combat logs so players can see how they are doing. I know damage meters can sometimes encourage really bad behavior, but I'm only talking about personal use for me. Because I always want to make sure I'm pulling my fare share and not slacking off in groups. If my DPS is too low, I need to know what I can do to fix it.

 

Obviously, the add-on question is related to this since that's what damage meters usually are.

 

Bioware wanted a game that would play well out of the box with no add-ons needed, just like WoW. And they did copy WoW, a little, in that you do not "need" add-ons for this game. The problem is the game provides so many complications because the ui is sluggish, does not allow for macro support, and the overall setup is just clunky, etc. (All thinks WoW has never really struggled with, except maybe the 3rd at times). Actually, the ui reminiscent of a single player RPG which would make sense when considering that most of their lead devs have no experience in MMO design.

 

James Ohlen was the one that said mods are not needed for ops, and, again, while technically true, you also do not need gasoline to get your car to your destination...but it certainly makes it a far more manageable task. I actually cancelled cause the game was just so frustrating to play because of the bad GUI that it was just too much to continue with. It's one thing to design boss fights around presenting large challenges to the player, but when you design the interface to be the most challenging boss encounter in the game, you have some serious flaws in your design logic.

 

tl;dr Bioware attempted to make their game's interface streamlined and user friendly enough to not require mods, they failed miserably in typical TOR fashion.

Edited October 9, 2012 by Rezakh

[mphill]

Damage meters are not needed in this game. Just do EV. If someone isn't pulling their weight they won't get past the Council.

[Quraswren]

SNIP...

 

tl;dr Bioware attempted to make their game's interface streamlined and user friendly enough to not require mods, they failed miserably in typical TOR fashion.

 

Thats definitely not true.

 

Other than the last 3 bosses in HM TFB there is nothing in the game multiple guilds have not done and been rather successful at it and all done with the current UI.

 

if we are to determine success or failure by the content that can be cleared by the stoke UI. Then it was a massive success. Cause as it stands, you don't need any addons.

 

Damage meters are not needed in this game. Just do EV. If someone isn't pulling their weight they won't get past the Council.

 

 

Bingo ^

Edited October 9, 2012 by Quraswren

[Jenzali]

It wasn't a decision made because of any ethics or principles - more likely their code base is so incredibly messy at this point that it would be way too difficult to open it up to modders.

 

Other MMOs have tons of gameplay bugs, all the time, yes, but I think SWTOR is quite special for the frequency and magnitude of its UI malfunctions. They'd need to clean up that mess before opening it up for addons or modding.

Edited October 9, 2012 by Jenzali

[Serbegorn]

What was BioWare's reasoning for not allowing damage meters and add-ons?

 

Obvious. It would show exactly how clueless they are when it comes to balancing classes.

[Lostpenguins]

Damage meters are not needed in this game. Just do EV. If someone isn't pulling their weight they won't get past the Council.

 

Sorry, but the Council in EV is a joke. I had raiders who all made it past the Council in EV only to fail miserably at NiM Pilgrim because those same dps'ers were actually bad. EV Council is NOT a dps check.

[Rezakh]

Thats definitely not true.

 

if we are to determine success or failure by the content that can be cleared by the stoke UI. Then it was a massive success. Cause as it stands, you don't need any addons.

 

 

 

If you're defining success or failure based on content progression in this game, you're suffering from a severe leap in logic. You're not even considering that the devs actually designed the end game to be easy, which by the way, it is. End game content in this game carries about the same difficulty as non-raid content (dungeons requiring a group or small party rather than a raid) of other games.

 

Look at the time, effort, and attempts required to clear raid content in LOTRO, WoW, DAoC, etc. The content in this game is a joke. Oh, and maybe you should go back and read the whole post despite the tl;dr tag, cause I made it clear that the UI in this game is actually harder than the content.

[ibervang]

Some might claim its because the classes arent balanced and that would show with a damage meter....

I recall hearing it was so people didnt go for/bring the highest dps classes.as there are nore things to fight, the just doing dps

[ivanhedgehog]

Ever been in a game just for fun, and all of a sudden someone gets all upset?

 

Then another person says, "Since when did we start keeping score?"

 

As soon as everything is tracked and measured it becomes nothing but a peen contest, the fun is gone.

 

That entire meta game rat race is one thing I really don't miss about WoW.

 

 

Going to the OPs post, if we had meters, the person who was percieved to be "under performing" would get ****/kicked.

 

How fun is that!

 

not to mention many of the operation mechanics royally screw some classes. try running a sniper where you must keep moving constantly and if you wait to finish a channel it will kill you. That sure cuts into your dps. or a marauder where you must stay away from the boss. all of a sudden "you are bad dps" kick

[Lostpenguins]

not to mention many of the operation mechanics royally screw some classes. try running a sniper where you must keep moving constantly and if you wait to finish a channel it will kill you. That sure cuts into your dps. or a marauder where you must stay away from the boss. all of a sudden "you are bad dps" kick

 

A good guild knows when it's fight mechanics versus someone under-performing. Bioware already messes up a lot by making it so that bring melee only dps adds an extra level of difficulty that ranged dps does not bring. And there are plenty of fights that really mess with melee classess: the entire of HM EC was stupidly in favor of ranged. They at least fixed it so that isn't truly the same in TFB (thank fully).

 

Still, you can say it's not fun when someone is checking your performance, but I'm not having fun constantly wiping or hitting enrage because someone else plays poorly. Ever had to play a "fun game" where your partner was terrible? How fun is that?

[ivanhedgehog]

A good guild knows when it's fight mechanics versus someone under-performing. Bioware already messes up a lot by making it so that bring melee only dps adds an extra level of difficulty that ranged dps does not bring. And there are plenty of fights that really mess with melee classess: the entire of HM EC was stupidly in favor of ranged. They at least fixed it so that isn't truly the same in TFB (thank fully).

 

Still, you can say it's not fun when someone is checking your performance, but I'm not having fun constantly wiping or hitting enrage because someone else plays poorly. Ever had to play a "fun game" where your partner was terrible? How fun is that?

 

thats why I will use mox on ops and NMP runs, but nowhere else. Other than those 2 places, it will continue to be my tool for improvement.

[Lostpenguins]

thats why I will use mox on ops and NMP runs, but nowhere else. Other than those 2 places, it will continue to be my tool for improvement.

 

Oh yeah. Then you and I are actually in agreement. I don't need to check other's dps in HM FP's or even in pug runs. I only use it for guild runs where we're checking to make sure we pass progression marks. We don't even use it for farmed content.

[Khevar]

Sorry, but the Council in EV is a joke. I had raiders who all made it past the Council in EV only to fail miserably at NiM Pilgrim because those same dps'ers were actually bad. EV Council is NOT a dps check.

Tell that to the fully blackhole geared Shadow dps who only got his council member to 41% health before the timer ran out (O_o)

 

True story.

[Lostpenguins]

Tell that to the fully blackhole geared Shadow dps who only got his council member to 41% health before the timer ran out (O_o)

 

True story.

That's pretty embarrassing, but still, someone not killing their council member in time only tells you that they're really, really bad and/or undergeared. But someone can be fairly bad and still kill their council member.

 

Basically its: Awful------Kill Council-----Bad----Average---Good Enough for HM Ops

[Alec_Fortescue]

Reasoning for not allowing damage meters? Simple: dps of some classes is so much superior to others they didn't want to make it obvious themselves. :/ We still got third party dps meters and it actually shows how huge the difference between a, say, powertech and and mercenary dps in exactly same gear and best possible rotations.

[Kourage]

They are allowed and people are using them. You have to opt in though. If you're in a hardcore raiding guild, they will want you to install and share your data. You won't get picked on in a PUG Hard Mode though.