Dev's Promise Still Unfulfilled

[KorrigTS]

The issue comes into play in PvP, as a DPS who can heal gives you an advantage.... If you truely only want to DPS then roll a PURE DPS class....

 

Otherwise yes, your going to be penalized a bit in dps for having healing abilities...

 

Yes, I agree. But we are penalized, have you seen how squishy sorc are in pvp?

[SoonerJBD]

So you think a DPS Sorc who can also heal himself should have the exact same DPS as a Sniper who can't heal himself.... Yeah that's real balanced...

 

Tell you what when they make it so Snipers can heal themselves like DPS Sorc's do then I will agree with you about having the same DPS....

 

This is such a nonsensical argument. I'm spec'd DPS. If I throw heals during a boss fight, I run out of force and can't DPS. It's not some huge advantage. Snipers get defensive buffs that other classes don't. Some classes get raid-wide buffs like the sniper's ballistic shield and sentinel's inspiration. Every class has something it can do differently. They can't make all skills the same, and those little differences are what make the classes unique. But if they are going to have DPS specs for all classes, they need to be somewhat balanced. Ideally, the class-specific advantages like ballistic shield or inspiration or a self heal will encourage raid groups to invite a variety of classes. But if DPS isn't remotely balanced, whatever advantages I bring as a Sage/Sorcerer aren't worth it in a raid progression where every point of DPS counts and can make the difference between clearing a boss or not.

 

They've said the target is 5 percent. That is perfectly reasonable. So why aren't they making any effort to move towards that target?

[Monoth]

I've been complaining about this for some time now. I don't expect they will get the balance perfect right off, but my frustration comes from the fact that the data has been pretty clear for some time now that some DPS specs are parsing 10 percent or more higher than others both in simulations and the ranked logs, and they have made balance changes but have done nothing to address the imbalance in DPS. If their goal is for DPS specs to be within 5 percent of each other, as they have stated, why aren't they doing ANYTHING to reach that goal when they are clearly missing it by so much?

 

I will say some of the mechanics in TFB seem to favor ranged classes, but Snipers are still outperforming other ranged classes by WAY too much.

 

Actually from the runs i've done with my gulid in HM EV, Sentinels are out DPS'ing my Gunslinger, not but a lot but it's pretty consistent....

 

There so many factors that come into play in determining weather or not a class is to OP... To many people base it on someone killing them and they instantly think their class is OP when the truth is they just got out played...

 

The ONLY time I noticed a seriously OP class was back at he beginning with Scoundrel / Operatives were basically killing people before they could even get back up after being knocked down by them.... they were doing insane damage.... Other than that classes have been fairly balanced, at least for a MMO....

Edited October 4, 2012 by Monoth

[Monoth]

This is such a nonsensical argument. I'm spec'd DPS. If I throw heals during a boss fight, I run out of force and can't DPS. It's not some huge advantage. Snipers get defensive buffs that other classes don't. Some classes get raid-wide buffs like the sniper's ballistic shield and sentinel's inspiration. Every class has something it can do differently. They can't make all skills the same, and those little differences are what make the classes unique. But if they are going to have DPS specs for all classes, they need to be somewhat balanced. Ideally, the class-specific advantages like ballistic shield or inspiration or a self heal will encourage raid groups to invite a variety of classes. But if DPS isn't remotely balanced, whatever advantages I bring as a Sage/Sorcerer aren't worth it in a raid progression where every point of DPS counts and can make the difference between clearing a boss or not.

 

They've said the target is 5 percent. That is perfectly reasonable. So why aren't they making any effort to move towards that target?

 

Please show me exactly where its a 10% difference, I've seen Sorc's top the charts in DPS in warzones, maybe you gimped yourself with the way your spec'ed, or maybe your doing crappy rotations ? Are you just a crappy player? Maybe your armor sucks or your using the wrong Aug's..... I've gone toe to toe with Sorc's on my Gunslinger and it's pretty close, not to mention they can just burst run out of their throw a few heals on themselves and run back into the battle, something Sniper / Gunslingers can't.... Sounds to me your not playing your class properly , maybe your playing a spec thats more about the AOE"s then single target, that would affect you in PvE OP's where your fighting a single Boss... If you want to claim that your class is gimped then show proof, show vid's or a break down of the DPS your doing, something other then expecting people to believe you on blind faith...

 

When Operatives were OP there was a ton of video's showing it... I've yet to see anything other then a questionable simulator....

Edited October 4, 2012 by Monoth

[SoonerJBD]

This really isn't about PvP, so I don't know why you keep dragging it there. Measuring DPS output in PvP is difficult because the fights are never the same. But measuring DPS in PvE is easy. We have programs like Mox. Player skill is obviously a variable, but ranked parses mitigate player skill by using a large sample size. And simulations like SimC take the variable of player skill out of the equation entirely. It's easy to tell when one DPS spec is outperforming another on a consistent basis.

 

The devs' "5 percent" statement was in relation to PvE, where you can measure it. Balancing PvP is more of an inexact science. The only reason PvP is pertinent to the discussion is that they insist upon making balance changes that are motivated by PvP and applying them in a PvE context as well. I don't understand this. You have skills that are PvP-focused that never make it into PvE builds. Why not focus your balancing for PvP on those skills rather than gimping PvE players. None of the recent balancing changes were PvE focused, and that really annoys me. We KNOW which specs are outperforming others in PvE. In PvP, it's mostly a lot of whining not backed up with any real data because it's difficult to measure. There is simply no reason that my DPS should be out of balance in PvE because of PvP factors.

[KorrigTS]

Please show me exactly where its a 10% difference

See first post in this thread.

 

Snipers at 2009 DPS and madness Sorc at 1781. That's almost 13% difference. And this is a PVE related balance issue, whether or not you beat/get beat by Sorcs in WZs doesn't have anything to do with it.

[SoonerJBD]

Please show me exactly where its a 10% difference, I've seen Sorc's top the charts in DPS in warzones, maybe you gimped yourself with the way your spec'ed, or maybe your doing crappy rotations ? Are you just a crappy player? Maybe your armor sucks or your using the wrong Aug's..... I've gone toe to toe with Sorc's on my Gunslinger and it's pretty close, not to mention they can just burst run out of their throw a few heals on themselves and run back into the battle, something Sniper / Gunslingers can't.... Sounds to me your not playing your class properly , maybe your playing a spec thats more about the AOE"s then single target, that would affect you in PvE OP's where your fighting a single Boss... If you want to claim that your class is gimped then show proof, show vid's or a break down of the DPS your doing, something other then expecting people to believe you on blind faith...

 

When Operatives were OP there was a ton of video's showing it... I've yet to see anything other then a questionable simulator....

 

It's not about PvP. Please repeat that to yourself. This is a PvE issue, where the data can be measured. OP posted SimC data SHOWING the difference. Lethality Snipers are 12.8 percent ahead of Madness Sorcerers in pre-1.4 best in slot gear. http://simulationcraft.org/swtor/130/Raid_Campaign_BiS.html

 

The ranked parses on Ask Mr. Robot also show the differences in a real world setting. Mercs, Powertechs, Snipers and Marauders parse 9-10 percent higher on EC HM boss fights than sorcerers, and smugglers aren't even in the ballpark.

http://swtor.askmrrobot.com/combatlog

[SoonerJBD]

Another frustrating factor here is that there has been no word from the devs on this issue. Is that 5 percent target still accurate? If so, why haven't any recent balance changes addressed it? We can all see that the devs aren't close to that 5 percent target. Some word about whether they intend to address the issue would be nice.

[Goretzu]

Over promised, under delivered seems to be the theme here.

 

[Bloodstealer]

This really isn't about PvP, so I don't know why you keep dragging it there. Measuring DPS output in PvP is difficult because the fights are never the same. But measuring DPS in PvE is easy. We have programs like Mox. Player skill is obviously a variable, but ranked parses mitigate player skill by using a large sample size. And simulations like SimC take the variable of player skill out of the equation entirely. It's easy to tell when one DPS spec is outperforming another on a consistent basis.

 

The devs' "5 percent" statement was in relation to PvE, where you can measure it. Balancing PvP is more of an inexact science. The only reason PvP is pertinent to the discussion is that they insist upon making balance changes that are motivated by PvP and applying them in a PvE context as well. I don't understand this. You have skills that are PvP-focused that never make it into PvE builds. Why not focus your balancing for PvP on those skills rather than gimping PvE players. None of the recent balancing changes were PvE focused, and that really annoys me. We KNOW which specs are outperforming others in PvE. In PvP, it's mostly a lot of whining not backed up with any real data because it's difficult to measure. There is simply no reason that my DPS should be out of balance in PvE because of PvP factors.

 

Because dragging it back to PvP is important.. you cant place your classes into small boxes and make changes to it just because one or twom players feel they are not competitive in a Boss/raid instance... whatever changes they might then make have wider repurcussions than just said class being that much more affective in a certain instance/environament.

 

Game balance is exactly that.. gamewide not PvE specific or PvP specific it is game wide and I would hazard a guess that the stats and data that the balancing experts utilise is a little more extensive than what the various player parsars are showing.

But saying that, I would expect there to be variants within and outside of that 5% differnetial... but those other classes have other skills/abilities and attributes at their desposal which have uses. But if a player uses them instead of keeping up his/her DPS rotations then sure it will show the DPS gap between one class and another for sure.. but its down to individual playstyles and the conditions within the instance.... I would love to say I can stand toe to toe and just keep cycling my rotations on my DPS class but reality suggests that isn't normally viable 100% of the time..

 

Parsars are great but they don't tell the whole story.. and tbh I find that a good thing and bad -

Good becuase the game is meant to be a little more than number watching and boasting ubersauceness

Bad because it creates threads like this calling for devs to keep changing things to ease their own failings in the name of balance.. then changes get made and someone else jumps on the band wagon and .. rinse / repeat.

 

The game balance overall might not be quite there yet, but if it was sooo outta sync then many more threads would be lit up on here and no one would be getting through content

 

At the end of the day its a game, not a maths lesson... you just need to let go and learn to enjoy it for what it is.

[spectreclees]

I'd rather them focus on fixing up the game than fixing balance right now.

 

Edit: @ Second Post: Poor Feral Druids

Edited October 4, 2012 by spectreclees

[Monoth]

This is a case of people focusing purely on DPS, where as being a DPS who can dish out some badly needed off heals here and there can make or break a OP's run... You guys are completely ignoring the importance of the hybrid ability of healing..

 

Pure DPS Classes only have a few things that help in a group, sure a gunslinger can put up a 20 sec shield with limited range but also has a long 2 min CD on it, or a Sentinel who can use inspiration but has limitations, for one it only works for people within there group so it only affects the player and 3 others and it also has a long CD on it.... Where as heals have no long CD on them and can be used on anyone at anytime.

 

The way I view it is Bioware made two types of DPS, the PURE DPS class and the Hybrid DPS class.. It only makes sense that a PURE DPS can do more Damage then a Hybrid DPS....

 

If your ONLY interest is having the highest DPS #'s regardless if the operation succeeds or fails then you should roll a pure DPS class, if on the other hand if you want a class that still has high DPS but also can off Heal then you roll a Hybrid DPS Class..

 

Not sure how people can't grasp that concept....

 

Not to mention your trusting a 3rd party designed simulator application that you have no guarantee is accurate.

[drfirewater]

Hey guys,

 

I'm not one to complain, as I actually believe the BioWare crew is doing a great job and Devs are doing quite well in this extremely young game (not even a year old).

 

However, a few month's ago the Devs promised that all DPS classes would be within a 5% DPS range of each other. It has been proven over and over that this is not the case.

 

SimulationCraft has the best proof. A combat simulation with 50,000 iterations and 8 threads of all DPS classes and all trees in full campaign gear during raids with the best possible DPS rotations for each.

 

Here: http://simulationcraft.org/swtor/130/Raid_Campaign.html

 

Here's another, with full campaign BiS and same conditions: http://simulationcraft.org/swtor/130/Raid_Campaign_BiS.html

 

Note how the Sniper is 10% above the Sorceror, that is nowhere near the developer's statement.

 

Of course these are results pre 1.4, but the underperforming classes however did not get any damage buffs in any of the trees on 1.4, so I don't see how it changes anything.

 

Now, I'm not saying that Sniper's should be nerfed, I think they are perfect right now. But some classes definitely need a damage buff. (Hint: Guardians/Juggs did not).

 

Thanks.

 

I have to say two things .. one cool inks ... but they dont make sense. Number 1 no marauder stats? they are suppost to be the higheest dps in the game but they didnt test them in comparison? 2nd I have never met an assassin dps who could out dps a sniper marksman or a bounty hunter merci arsenal so either there numbers are messed up or they are flat out wrong or there rotations aren't nearly as good as they think they are. From what i have seen in mox and monitor parsers is assassins have the worst dps in the game by far. they are usually the bottom of our dps charts and we are all mod swapers and dps meter watchers.

 

I dont know for sure as my assassin is a tank and no need for dps because i have a sniper marauder merc and sorc all in full BH/campain gear.

 

Now that i got that off my chest ... there are some things about BALANCE in MMOs that alot of people dont understand. Balance in MMOs is like a onion it has many layers.

 

1) Risk vs Reward : Melee dps should always do more damage then ranged because they are directly in the line of fire ... melee make the healers job harder as they are taking damage that generally would not be happening if they where ranged so in return melee for increasing difficulty and constantly being in the line of fire get higher dps to balance that out.

 

2) HPS vs DPS: dps are balanced in range of abilty to be sustained (self healing defensive CDs etc....) and deal damage. In this game everyone has about the same hps cept tanks who focus on hp building. This is why Tanks do less damage over all ... its not cause they are tanks .. its cause they balance that with survivability. The same is true of dps .. Snipers dont have a heal ability ... but sorcs in dps spec can crit heal over 6k easily and now have yet another self heal added recently. So obviously there dps should be lower then that of a sniper. Mercs can also self heal a little but not nearly as much so obviously they should be less then snipers and more then sorcs.

 

3) Energy/Force/Rage/etc.... vs rotation difficulty : the other balancing factor is your rotation, this is where many people get there confusion up the most. If your rotation is not perfect you will run out of resources and lower your dps. Burst vs Sustained dps for instance. This too is a balancing technique for dps in mmos. for instance the sorc dps rotation is pretty simple your force lightning the entire time then deathfield and dots when available. I wish the sniper rotation was quite that simple and energy efficient. Snap back a snipe followthrough series of shots if off cool down then lase and TA then ambush and followthrough then move and snpa back a snipe ... so much is dependent on what is off cd and moving in and out of cover its a pain of a rotation. Mercs got it even worse as majority of there powers dispite being massive dps single hit are channeled and there rotation is completely based on CDs and instant removal of cds based on tracer missle (arsenal is all have played so sorry if i am not talking from aspects i have no experience in) again this is why sorcs are lower dps then mercs and mercs are lower dps then snipers. Difficulty of there rotations means that if they are optimal they are rewarded with higher dps.

 

 

....NOW WHERE I AGREE WITH YOU ...

 

where i agree is that we should have that option to make for ourselves in each class. I should beable to choose between trees to pick the balance type i prefer within my playstyle. If i want to be survivable i should spec to be survivable at the cost of my dps. BUT all classes should have the option of resource heavy hard to maintain rotation top end balanced dps vs easy to maintain spec that does significantly less dps but not so much less that you cant hit enrage timers.

 

Enrage in this game is a whole other issue ..... when people in full rakata are doing raids that drop rakata (thus they are in fact OVER GEARED for the raid) and have trouble hitting enrage timers ... that is poor development vs the balancing of dps in this game. IMHO all enrage timers are FAR FAR too short should easily be a minute longer. The reason being balancing for its tier.

 

If a raid only drops rakata like EC and TFB SMs do, then people in full rakata should never see enrage timer if they are doign the right stratagy... people in BH/Campain should be beating it with the same ease as HM EV KP as they are the same tier based on gear distribution. THAT is where the devs are wrong in there dps balancing ... in so far that people only want those able to keep up with highest dps rotations on top of mechanics and be over geared for the content to even stand a chance.

They made great changes to EC SM but then removed all ability to increase your gear amounts which removes the progression aspect.

 

If they did progression properly then the balancing issues wouldnt be such a big deal.

[KorrigTS]

This is a case of people focusing purely on DPS, where as being a DPS who can dish out some badly needed off heals here and there can make or break a OP's run... You guys are completely ignoring the importance of the hybrid ability of healing..

 

Pure DPS Classes only have a few things that help in a group, sure a gunslinger can put up a 20 sec shield with limited range but also has a long 2 min CD on it, or a Sentinel who can use inspiration but has limitations, for one it only works for people within there group so it only affects the player and 3 others and it also has a long CD on it.... Where as heals have no long CD on them and can be used on anyone at anytime.

I think you're ignoring the importance of the support abilities of the "pure" dps classes.

 

The way I view it is Bioware made two types of DPS, the PURE DPS class and the Hybrid DPS class.. It only makes sense that a PURE DPS can do more Damage then a Hybrid DPS....

 

If your ONLY interest is having the highest DPS #'s regardless if the operation succeeds or fails then you should roll a pure DPS class, if on the other hand if you want a class that still has high DPS but also can off Heal then you roll a Hybrid DPS Class..

 

Not sure how people can't grasp that concept....

I don't think anyone is having an issue grasping the concept of a hybrid tax. And if that's the route BW wants to go, that's fine. BUT make the hybrids within 5% like the stated goal.

 

Not to mention your trusting a 3rd party designed simulator application that you have no guarantee is accurate.

The source code is public. All combat related formulas have been data mined and modeled in the simulator, and it's available for anyone to view.

[Narthil]

They are closer then an mmo ive personally played, also, you are baseing your theory on min max numbers a computer can put out.

 

I'm not prone to thinking humans can come close without some third party program.

 

Perhaps the dps metrics are balanced around average play style and the amount of buttons people can keep on cooldown.

 

They can base it on the real in live RWZ damage to kill ratio or in real and live raids for that matter, the numbers are the same.

 

SimulationCraft has a variable called "Skill", which gives it a % error margin of the player failling to follow the priority skills and rotation.

Edited October 4, 2012 by Narthil

[Narthil]

So you think a DPS Sorc who can also heal himself should have the exact same DPS as a Sniper who can't heal himself.... Yeah that's real balanced...

 

Tell you what when they make it so Snipers can heal themselves like DPS Sorc's do then I will agree with you about having the same DPS....

 

No, Sniper's should be 5% above, as promised by the Devs. Not 10%-20%.

 

It's always good to read before posting.

Edited October 4, 2012 by Narthil

[Narthil]

Oh look its this guy spamming his almost useless simcraft thingo again. get it through your incredibly thick skull.

SIMCRAFT IS NOT THE BIBLE, IT DOES NOT ACCURATELY REFLECT PLAYER SKILL, EVERYONES GAMING PC OR INTERNET SPEED. ITS ALSO ONLY SIMS A PATCHWERK STYLE ENCOUNTER OF WHICH THERE ARE NOT MANY IN THIS GAME.

 

move along nothing to see here

 

Naturally you don't have any of the underperforming classes.

 

See the chart in a RWZ, run a parser on your own hardest raid, numbers are the same.

 

It actually does reflect player skill, since it considers a variable called "Skill" and a % error margin in failling to follow the priority list.

 

Which is precisely why the numbers from a real situation (BiS gear, RWZ and hardest raids) are exactly the same, at least in order of DPS.

[Lostpenguins]

People also forget that Gear + Augments + proper Rotation plays a huge role in what kind of DPS you can do... Mess up any of these and your going to be subpar to what you could be.

 

I don't understand the context of what you're saying. If your'e saying that my marauder loses in DPS to a good merc, sniper, or PT... are you saying it's because I don't have the right gear or I'm not playing my character correctly? In both cases you're wrong. I was simply making a rebuttal that Mercs/Commandos are not behind in terms of dps. They can dps at the top or near top of the charts depending on the fight.

[Urael]

No, Sniper's should be 5% above, as promised by the Devs. Not 10%-20%.

 

It's always good to read before posting.

 

Monoth had a legitimate point and there was no need of YOU to dis him.

 

After reading thru this thread it is apparent to me that you have ONE idea in mind and unless everyone agrees with you they are wrong.

 

Snipers/gunsligers as the only PURE ranged DPS class should be a bit higher in DPS to counter those ranged DPS classes that can self heal ( as a balance ). Currently, if a sniper goes head to head with a Sorcerer 9 out of 10 times the Sorcerer is going to beat the sniper ( even if the sniper is skilled vs an unskilled Sorcerer ) because the Sorcerer will just play a game of attrition because of his self heals. Also if the Sorcerer is speced heal then if he knows how to Canidance (those from EQ will know what I mean instantly), the ability to balance self damange to trade for energy ( figuring out the mean to maintain constant mid range of health) there is NO way a sniper can prevail UNLESS they can do at least 5% more damage than the healer sorcerer. Then it becomes a "race" to the end of the battle of attrition. If Snipers are completely normalized in DPS they will NEVER win against a Sorcerer.

Edited October 4, 2012 by Urael

[Narthil]

Please show me exactly where its a 10% difference, I've seen Sorc's top the charts in DPS in warzones, maybe you gimped yourself with the way your spec'ed, or maybe your doing crappy rotations ? Are you just a crappy player? Maybe your armor sucks or your using the wrong Aug's..... I've gone toe to toe with Sorc's on my Gunslinger and it's pretty close, not to mention they can just burst run out of their throw a few heals on themselves and run back into the battle, something Sniper / Gunslingers can't.... Sounds to me your not playing your class properly , maybe your playing a spec thats more about the AOE"s then single target, that would affect you in PvE OP's where your fighting a single Boss... If you want to claim that your class is gimped then show proof, show vid's or a break down of the DPS your doing, something other then expecting people to believe you on blind faith...

 

When Operatives were OP there was a ton of video's showing it... I've yet to see anything other then a questionable simulator....

 

Please show me a RWZ chart with top guilds, where a Sorc/Sage tops the chart in damage to kill ratio? It will never happen, because the only way to top the chart as a Sorc/Sage is by multi dotting everyone (with ticks that do 400 damage per tick if it crits) and cast force quake in a crowd, which makes it absolutely useless as you will get almost 0 kills and result in a guaranteed RWZ loss.

Edited October 4, 2012 by Narthil

[Lostpenguins]

The issue comes into play in PvP, as a DPS who can heal gives you an advantage.... If you truely only want to DPS then roll a PURE DPS class....

 

Otherwise yes, your going to be penalized a bit in dps for having healing abilities...

 

Oh god... not this reasoning again. Couple of reason's you're wrong.

 

1) If a sorc is casting heals on themselves they are wasting GCD's and cast-times to do it. All the time while the Sniper is continuing to dps them down. Btw, you're also comparing 1v1 which isn't how WZ's generally work. Team-based pvp is where balance comes more into play, not 1v1's.

 

2) Why do PT's do stupidly high amounts of dps in WZ's (and Juggs with Rage spec) all the while they are throwing out protection on other classes? That sure seems like a hybrid to me. So really then, it should snipers and marauders at the top, followed by everything else, right?

 

I'm sorry, but I still can't believe people argue about the "hybrid tax". There's no point in spec'ing into anything besides a healer as sorc if they're subpar in dps for which they are spec'ing into. That makes no sense whatsoever to give them 2 dps trees and 1 healing tree, but then both those dps trees are weaker because of a "hybrid tax".

[Narthil]

Oh god... not this reasoning again. Couple of reason's you're wrong.

 

1) If a sorc is casting heals on themselves they are wasting GCD's and cast-times to do it. All the time while the Sniper is continuing to dps them down. Btw, you're also comparing 1v1 which isn't how WZ's generally work. Team-based pvp is where balance comes more into play, not 1v1's.

 

2) Why do PT's do stupidly high amounts of dps in WZ's (and Juggs with Rage spec) all the while they are throwing out protection on other classes? That sure seems like a hybrid to me. So really then, it should snipers and marauders at the top, followed by everything else, right?

 

I'm sorry, but I still can't believe people argue about the "hybrid tax". There's no point in spec'ing into anything besides a healer as sorc if they're subpar in dps for which they are spec'ing into. That makes no sense whatsoever to give them 2 dps trees and 1 healing tree, but then both those dps trees are weaker because of a "hybrid tax".

 

Absolutely agree, and like I said:

 

Please show me a RWZ chart with top guilds, where a Sorc/Sage tops the chart in damage to kill ratio? It will never happen, because the only way to top the chart as a Sorc/Sage is by multi dotting everyone (with ticks that do 400 damage per tick if it crits) and cast force quake in a crowd, which makes it absolutely useless as you will get almost 0 kills and result in a guaranteed RWZ loss.

Edited October 4, 2012 by Narthil

[Lostpenguins]

Actually from the runs i've done with my gulid in HM EV, Sentinels are out DPS'ing my Gunslinger, not but a lot but it's pretty consistent....

 

There so many factors that come into play in determining weather or not a class is to OP... To many people base it on someone killing them and they instantly think their class is OP when the truth is they just got out played...

 

The ONLY time I noticed a seriously OP class was back at he beginning with Scoundrel / Operatives were basically killing people before they could even get back up after being knocked down by them.... they were doing insane damage.... Other than that classes have been fairly balanced, at least for a MMO....

 

I'm bolding the biggest part of your problem right there. You are doing this in HM EV. Honestly, if you're still doing HM EV then you probably aren't top-geared and probably not the top-end of playing. I used to raid with snipers who did about 60% of my dps. I always thought the class was weak. Then I joined a new guild and now those snipers in this new guild can beat me sometimes, depending on the fight and if there's things like a lot of disconnects from the boss or if there's AoE involved. Guess what? They can wreck me in the meters. The truth is that those previous snipers weren't playing that well.

 

If you're basing your values on HM EV I'd say your personal experience lacks credibility. You're not at max gear with BiS mods/enhancements to review combat logs and make educated choices.

[recsa]

edit: nvm Edited October 4, 2012 by recsa

[SoonerJBD]

You can keep arguing who deserves what kind of damage, but the point here is that the devs' stated goal is for all DPS specs to be within 5 percent. They aren't reaching that target and don't seem to be even making an effort to do so. We'd like to know why.