1.4 Watchman PVP Build - Advice appreciated

[Kel-el]

I am a new 50 and really want to start focusing on PVP. I leveled up as Combat but switched to Watchman for a different feel. I've been toying with the PVP build but don't quite feel right about all of the point allocation.

 

Here is my current build - http://swtor.askmrrobot.com/skills/Sentinel#9fe828elc-82i-0

 

As I am still getting used to my new spec/key binding, I'm sure I'm not using all of my abilities in the appropriate situations.

 

As you can see, I have 2 points in Force Fade - I'm sure I should be using camo to close gaps or for defense, but i haven't used it much. Not sure if i need the extra 2 sec and 20% speed buff.

 

I have 0 in Focused leap and not sure if i should grab that instead of needing an extra slash before hitting MS for my opener.

 

Is watchguard something you feel is a good skill to have, or should I allocate those points to Master Focus or Insight? - Same question for Stagger.

 

I REALLY appreciate any advice you can throw my way.

 

Thank you

[AsiriusNazriel]

http://swtor.askmrrobot.com/skills/Sentinel#9fc828elc-22i-i

 

This is what I recommend for PVP. Close quarters is a waste because you should only be using force charge to close distance. Preferably you want to run in to close the distance and leave force charge for when you're knocked back.

 

This is probably the best setup for PVP. Your bleeds are force damage so they utilize force insight for that extra 6% crit., this is very important.

 

You want to constantly have a high reserve of focus and apply your dots whenever available with your filler attack. Assault (for Maras) is the main thing you should be constantly hitting to hurt your opponent. You should NEVER use smash/forcesweep as Watchman spec. When in doubt, you your regular attack. If you're at a point where you have 12 and everything else is on cd, which is rare but happens, I recommend either vicious slash (Sentinel equivilent) or blade storm (force scream).

 

It takes a while to get into the rythm of Watchman/Annihilation and it's unfortunate that there are so few people that actually 'get it'. This spec is all about constantly having a high reserve of focus because when your abilities get off of cd, they'll be ready to go all at once and you need to have a full focus bar to do that.

[LightAndShade]

@Kel-el Watchguard is very very important. Pop 2/2 into it.

 

The only difference to my build is that:

 

1) I put 2/2 into Focused Leap instead of Force Fade. I recommend just trying both and experimenting. Its a personal question more about your play-style rather than a right or wrong answer. Questions to ask yourself include: Do I have enough focus when I need it? How much am I using Force Leap? Is Force Fade enabling me to impact the WZ (e.g. interrupt node caps, close gaps, stay alive etc.) more?

 

2) I put 2/2 into Stagger and 1/2 into Defensive Roll. I find the root on Leap very useful because I use leap all the time. Pretty much everytime it is off cool down (nearly!). That said, I myself am unsure about this decision. Since the patch 1.4 there is so much AoE going down that the extra 15% could be beneficial. This issue allows depends on your playstyle (Do you stay on the fringes or wade into the thick of it?).

 

@AsiriusNazriel

 

I have the disagree with you on many of your points. I will of course give you reasons why.

 

1) You should be using leap all the time. Even within melee range at times. The benefits of Leap as a watchman sentinel are massive:

• You have a reduced cooldown from Blurred Speed. So by not using Leap as much, you aren't really 'using' it to its potential.
  
• It is an interrupt. Very useful when killing healers as well as other classes, as both a ranged interrupt and when your kick interrupt is on CD.
  
• It is a root. This stops your target kiting you and gives you a few more valuable seconds to apply slows or just burn them.
  
• It procs your 4-Set Vindicator Set Bonus, giving you a 10% damage bonus for 5 seconds. This alone justifies using it at all times.
  

Get Close Quarters.

 

2) Your bleeds are not 'force' damage. In fact there is no such thing as 'force' damage, only 'force' attack types. Damage is kinetic, energy, elemental, internal etc. Insight has no effect on Overload Saber and Cauterize DoTs. It does work on Blade Storm and Sweep. Therefore it is not worth 3 points in my opinion.

For more information as to why this is true have a look at this post I wrote a while ago in another thread explaining it in more detail:

 

Ok I'd like to clear this up. I cannot be 100% sure that I know the truth but I am 99% sure. I will provide reasons why below.

 

The short version is, Bleeds from Rupture/Cauterize and Deadly Saber/Overload Saber are not Force attacks and therefore do not benefit from the effects of Insight.

 

The reasons for this:

 

Firstly and most importantly: I have sent a ticket to Bioware in game to ask this exact question and received a response that said the Bleeds/Burns are not Force attacks and are therefore not effected by Insight.

 

Despite this, people are still doubtful so I will explain further.

 

Preface: There is still a distinction between attack types and damage types but that is consistent with my explanation.

 

Lets break it down:

 

Cauterize/Rupture has two parts to it. A weapon damage hit and then an elemental dot.

The input, (i.e. the initial attack type a.k.a the actual strike) is a weapon attack. Therefore it is not a force attack, and therefore the attack itself is not effected by Insight.

The damage it does is 2-fold. Firstly, it does some weapon damage, but this also causes an elemental dot to be applied, which we see as the yellow damage. This is important as it shows us that despite seeing yellow damage on our screens, this does not mean the attack TYPE was necessarily a Force or Tech one. It is simply a reflection of the damage and not where the damage came from.

So it seems, in a relatively rare turn of events, that a weapon attack type has caused both weapon damage (the white) and elemental damage (the yellow).

 

Overload Saber/Deadly Saber is the same. It is not actually an attack, it is just a skill that allows for the application of a DoT that deals elemental damage. So how does this elemental DoT come about, and more specifically what is its source? Well it can only be obtained following a melee attack (which I understand/assume implies weapon damage).

Therefore we have the same situation as above, where a weapon attack has caused a DoT that deals elemental damage (yellow) to be applied.

The important part here is that it was a weapon attack type that caused the DoT (yellow damage) to be applied. Therefore it is safe to conclude that any effect on the critical chance of Force attacks (a la Insight) has no effect on this specific ability (the same applies for Cauterize/Rupture).

 

Finally, for the sake of completeness and anyone still getting their head around it.

If Insight worked in that it increased the % crit of all elemental damage or internal damage, then it WOULD be useful.

Additionally, we can contrast what I just said with a skill like Blade Storm which reads: "Uses the Force to project a wave of energy toward the target, dealing X kinetic damage". The Use of the force means that the attack type of BS is clearly a force attack, which causes (as specified) kinetic [yellow] damage. Insight applies for this ability.

 

Hopefully this clears it up for everyone.

 

3) Finally, I would just add that Sweep/Smash can be very useful. If there are 4 or 5 targets around you, use it! Secondly, if you are fightning a Sniper/Op who uses Dodge/Evasion, they can still be hit with non-physical attacks, so use Sweep/Smash, Blade Storm and apply your dots! Thirdly, if versing a tank or an assassin who has popped their 50% Physical Damage Reduction cooldown, using your 'yellow' damage attacks to get around this can be very effective.

[CJNJ]

Yellow damage=force damage

Force damage => force crit chance

[LightAndShade]

Yellow damage=force damage

Force damage => force crit chance

 

You are simply wrong.

There is no such thing as force damage. Force attacks are a type of attack, not a type of damage.

Yellow damage does not exclusively come from Force attacks (as my previous post hopefully showed).

 

If you have read my previous post and still do not understand or believe otherwise have a ready of another source explaining it again for you:

http://projectmayhem.com.au/swtor/2012/01/27/attack-types-damage-types-avoidance-and-mitigation-in-swtor/

[AsiriusNazriel]

Yellow damage=force damage

Force damage => force crit chance

 

I have to agree with my post and this quote over the other guy. Until you find a Marauder/Sentinel who runs Annihilation/Watchman who is better than me on the Ebon Hawk server I will stick to this.

 

Yellow damage is force damage and so Force Insight will indeed boost your force crits and since Cauterize uses force damage, it will be benefiting from the extra 6%. That is a fact and you just sited a 9 month old article.

 

Secondly, again force charge is useful as a distance closer. With the amount of knockbacks and cc's and getaways that are available to non-melee classes, using force charge everytime it is off of cd is pretty much asking to be knocked back and kited. Especially by someone who can root you as well.

 

I highly recommend using it as a distance closer because of this. With a 6 second cd on interrupts you should never be worried about having an interrupt available to you.

[Kel-el]

Thank you for those explanations!

 

I will modify my build to my play style, which is still evolving.

 

Much appreciated!

 

Love to hear some more responses on the use of Force Leap in melee range for interrupts and whether Force Fade should be switched out for Focused Leap.

 

Asirius - Regarding POST-Opener Watchman rotation or priority lists, After you have opened (My opener is Leap (in the air hit OS) Zealous strike, Caut, MS (Zen if available) and either Stasis/choke, or master strike) Do you just hit whatever abilities become available:

 

OS

Caut

MS

 

OR

 

Do you wait until all three are but and reapply as a group. I assume the latter.

 

Thank you again everyone for your input.

[AsiriusNazriel]

Thank you for those explanations!

 

I will modify my build to my play style, which is still evolving.

 

Much appreciated!

 

Love to hear some more responses on the use of Force Leap in melee range for interrupts and whether Force Fade should be switched out for Focused Leap.

 

Asirius - Regarding POST-Opener Watchman rotation or priority lists, After you have opened (My opener is Leap (in the air hit OS) Zealous strike, Caut, MS (Zen if available) and either Stasis/choke, or master strike) Do you just hit whatever abilities become available:

 

OS

Caut

MS

 

OR

 

Do you wait until all three are but and reapply as a group. I assume the latter.

 

Thank you again everyone for your input.

 

I'm gonna be making a thread on the Ebon Hawk server forums sometime soon about Sent/Mara PVP, my views/opinions, and itemization sometime in the near fufure. Keep a lookout for it.

 

Okay so the way I see it is that you have a couple of options. And you know, I don't have a specific opener that I use every single time, but I do recommend one of the following.

 

If you can avoid force charging, it may be better to run in. The reason for this is knockbacks and after you've been knocked back enough times by good healers you'll know that you absolutely need your force charge to reclose that distance. Now this is not every time, but a good percentage of the time.

 

If you don't force charge:

Run in -> Zealous Strike -> Overload Saber, Caterize (since Overload Saber is off of GCD you can activate it and another ability at the same time) ......... here is where you have options again, you can use Masterstrike or you can start to build up a focus reserve by using Slash (filler attack) -> Merciless Slash (when available and Cauterize & Overload Saber are on GCD)

 

** Use Merciless Slash only when you have activated all of your DOT abilities and have enough focus for it **

 

The majority of you damage will come from Slash and your dots. There are times where I don't use Masterstrike at all because I'm building up Focus/Rage. So I would probably say that if you use this opener, with running in, you can hold off of Masterstrike and focus on building up Focus and applying your dots.

 

If you open with force charge:

Force charge -> Overload Saber -> Masterstrike -> Zealous Strike -> Caterize -> Slash -> Merciless Slash -> Then Slash Slash Slash

 

You HAVE TO have a Focus reserve of 8 or more. The reason is that when you're abilities come off of GCD you get all of them at once and often enough I can burn down 8-12 focus with ease.

 

Don't focus so much on Masterstrike. Focus on Slash. Slash is the key to building focus. Slash is the key to chipping away your target. Whenever Zen is available, you always activate it.

 

A very sick combination is when you dot your opponent up, say deadly saber cauterize slash slash and THEN you hit him with stasis. They are powerless and they take massive damage.

 

I leave Stasis for when my opponent is either getting close to 40-50% and I've applied dots on them. This way they will burn down and I can use my finisher.

 

Interrupt should be bound to the 2nd most used key. That is how you pressure healers, you interrupt them each and every time.

 

There's ALOT that you need to experience first hand to get this and it takes a while. There are only a handful of people on my server that 'get it', myself included. Most people don't. Watchman/Annihilation is a difficult spec to master, but it is extremely effective when you start pushing it to the limit.

 

So the key take aways are Slash is your bestest best friend. Interrupts are to become second nature, when you see the channel bar you auto-interrupt. DOTS, they will burn your opponents and heal you. Remember that you have to be wary of distance, if you get knocked back or rooted and your target gets away you need a way to close that distance. Don't overvalue Masterstrike, good players will stun/knockback when they see it (I use it sparingly, situationally, and when my teammates have applied a force choke or a stun). And finally stick to your target like glue, they'll hate you for it. Go for either a) THE MOST DANGEROUS TARGET or b) THE SQUISHIEST TARGET.

 

Dangerous Targets: Healers, Big Hitters of GravRound/TracerMissile, Elite DPS (probably in this order)

Squishiest Targets: Healers, Troopers/Bountyhunters, Smugglers/Operatives (probably in this order)

 

No rules are set in stone, these are just guidelines. Everything is situational and you need to react to each situation accordingly. Good Player > Class Mechanics.

Edited October 3, 2012 by AsiriusNazriel

[Kel-el]

Thank you Arash! That was an amazing amount of information and will definitely take me time to absorb and put into practice.

 

Thank you for taking the time to put that all down on paper. I owe you one.

[Stealios]

You are simply wrong.

There is no such thing as force damage. Force attacks are a type of attack, not a type of damage.

Yellow damage does not exclusively come from Force attacks (as my previous post hopefully showed).

 

If you have read my previous post and still do not understand or believe otherwise have a ready of another source explaining it again for you:

http://projectmayhem.com.au/swtor/2012/01/27/attack-types-damage-types-avoidance-and-mitigation-in-swtor/

 

While you are right that there is no 'force damage' there are no melee or ranged attacks that do yellow dmg (therefore all yellow damage is done by either tech or force attacks). Since sentinels don't have tech abilities, and the dots do yellow dmg, the dots are force attacks and thus affected by your force critical chance.

Edited October 7, 2012 by Stealios

[LightAndShade]

@AsiriusNazriel

Unfortunately I'm not on that server so I can't play with you, but fun and games aside, your (or my) skill with the class has no bearing whatsoever on the question of whether Insight effects your burn damage. You could be the best player in the entire game and still be wrong. I'm sure you're very good at your class.

 

Firstly, with the Close Quarters question and Force Leap. This is a subjective, play style issue. There is no right or wrong answer. I have given the reasons for why I pick up CQ, and you have given reasons for why you have not. We can both be 'right' here because it is just opinions at this point.

 

The same cannot be said of Insight's function.

You said:

Yellow damage is force damage and so Force Insight will indeed boost your force crits and since Cauterize uses force damage, it will be benefiting from the extra 6%. That is a fact and you just sited a 9 month old article.

1. Once again, there is no such thing as force damage. There are only force attacks. Yellow damage is either kinetic, internal or elemental damage.
   
2. You are correct in saying that Insight will indeed boost the crit chance of your force 'attacks'.
   
3. However, as I mentioned already, Cauterize is a melee attack, that deals some white damage as well as some yellow damage (this is elemental damage and this part is the dot). Again, 'force damage' as you call it does not exist. Unfortunately Insight does not benefit Cauterize as Cauterise is a weapon attack, not a force attack.
   
4. Despite all of these issues, you have gone on to say, 'That is a fact', yet you have provided no evidence whatsoever. Just your opinion (even if you have mastered your class, it is still just your opinon).
   
5. Yes, the article I supplied you is 9 months old, but I am a) unaware of any substantiated criticisms levelled against it and b) unaware of any changes to these game mechanics (from any patch notes published) that have occurred in the last 9 months.
   

 

@Stealios

You said:

there are no melee or ranged attacks that do yellow dmg (therefore all yellow damage is done by either tech or force attacks)

This assumption is false. In general you are correct, but OS & Cauterize are two exceptions to this rule of thumb. They are examples of melee attacks causing yellow damage.

 

Firstly:

 

Cauterize - Strikes the target for 503 - 562 damage and deals an additional 1398 elemental damage over 6 seconds. Requires two lightsabers.

Source: http://www.torhead.com/ability/e0WvPob/cauterize

 

So here, Cautirize 'strikes' the target for 'damage' to begin. This is very vague wording, but we can see from the colour of that damage that it is white, and we can infer from other skills that use the word strike, that it is referring to a melee attack. Significantly, following the white damage, it deals 'elemental damage'. This is, as we agree, yellow damage. Now if you go back and look at it closely, you will see that the only attack type here is a melee attack. Therefore we can conclude that a melee attack caused yellow damage to occur.

 

Secondly:

 

OS - Charges your lightsabers with deadly energy for 15 seconds, causing your next 3 successful melee attacks to make the target burn for 235 elemental damage over 6 seconds. Stacks up to 3 times. This effect cannot occur more than once every 1.5 seconds.

Source: http://www.torhead.com/ability/5kENzZ0/overload-saber

 

This one is a little bit more complex, but essentially the same principal. OS 'charge your lightsabers with deadly energy for 15 seconds'. So far no mention of any attacks occuring or any damage being dealt, just this 'charging'. But if we read on, we see it causes the next 3 'melee attacks' to make the target burn for ### 'elemental damage'. This is similar to Cauterize. We know elemental damage is yellow, but it seems to suggest that it is being caused by 'melee attacks', not force or tech attacks. The only difference here to Cauterize is that Cauterize is a melee attack where as OS creates the potential for your melee attacks (from other sources, like Slash) to make a target incur yellow damage.

 

Therefore Insight, useless for both of them. So hopefully you can see how this works. If you still don't agree, please tell me precisely what part you disagree with.

 

Again, I am not 100% I am correct, I am just 99% correct. An example of a how I could be wrong is if Insight said it increased the crit chance of force attacks by 6%, but was actually programmed to increase the crit chance of yellow damage instead. But this would be an inconsitency with the programming and the tooltip. If all that is ok, combined with the ticket I got back from Bioware confirming what I'm arguing, then I am very very confident I am correct.

 

But like I said, if you can see something wrong, tell me.

[MatticusFinch]

@LightandShade I would believe you except my burns are all resisted when used on an assassin/shadow with an active force shroud/resilience, meaning that they are a force attack. If they were truly a weapon attack, they'd still hit. Go test it and get back to me with an explanation.

 

For clarity's sake, I'm not talking about the DoTs being cleansed when they activate their resistance ability, either; I'm talking landing a cauterize/rupture on an active one and watching up to 5 of the 6 ticks get resisted until the cooldown wears off.

Edited October 8, 2012 by MatticusFinch

[AsiriusNazriel]

And you keep on arguing about something that is right there in front of us. Yellow damage is modified and dicated by force damage. White attacks are physical.

 

The bottom line is that for bleeds, and the 2nd part of cauterize is a dot, it is modified by force damage/crit/surge. That is the bottom line. The majority of my damage comes from dots. Dots are modified by Insight. So to maximize the damage that your dots do, you should imo take Insight because it affects force modified attacks.

 

The only reason I said something about my 'credibility' is because I widely considered to be a very good player and I'm here sharing what I know with the rest of the community. I don't run a power build, I am fully itemized at 800 power, my build doesn't need any more. I rely on crit and dots and assault/slash.

 

Insight absolutely affects you dots and telling people that it doesn't is just not true. I'm not talking about the physical part of Cauterize, I'm talking about the dots, those benefit from Insight.

[AsiriusNazriel]

@LightandShade I would believe you except my burns are all resisted when used on an assassin/shadow with an active force shroud/resilience, meaning that they are a force attack. If they were truly a weapon attack, they'd still hit. Go test it and get back to me with an explanation.

 

For clarity's sake, I'm not talking about the DoTs being cleansed when they activate their resistance ability, either; I'm talking landing a cauterize/rupture on an active one and watching up to 5 of the 6 ticks get resisted until the cooldown wears off.

 

This is proof!

[Stealios]

Long quote.

 

You can quote & link all you want, if you look at abilities panel ingame you'll find that OS is actually a force attack that is applied by doing a melee attack. And by testing you would have found that while the initial dmg from cauzterize is indeed a melee attack, but the the dot part is affected by force bonus dmg & crit chance.

Go hit a dummy, read back your parses and see for yourself.

[Strah]

@AsiriusNazriel

Therefore Insight, useless for both of them. So hopefully you can see how this works. If you still don't agree, please tell me precisely what part you disagree with.

 

Again, I am not 100% I am correct, I am just 99% correct. An example of a how I could be wrong is if Insight said it increased the crit chance of force attacks by 6%, but was actually programmed to increase the crit chance of yellow damage instead. But this would be an inconsitency with the programming and the tooltip. If all that is ok, combined with the ticket I got back from Bioware confirming what I'm arguing, then I am very very confident I am correct.

 

But like I said, if you can see something wrong, tell me.

 

Yeah, you are incorrect.

 

Both Cauterize (dot part) and Overload saber are affected by insight. There's been lots of testing to prove that, and even if you go to you skills menu, you can see "Force" right nex to Overload Saber.

So yeah, you're not 100%, neither you are 99% right. You're 100% wrong.

[Ramtar]

@LightandShade I would believe you except my burns are all resisted when used on an assassin/shadow with an active force shroud/resilience, meaning that they are a force attack. If they were truly a weapon attack, they'd still hit. Go test it and get back to me with an explanation.

 

For clarity's sake, I'm not talking about the DoTs being cleansed when they activate their resistance ability, either; I'm talking landing a cauterize/rupture on an active one and watching up to 5 of the 6 ticks get resisted until the cooldown wears off.

 

This is the reason the devs need look into Force Shroud/Resilience. The Assassin/Shadow should be loosing 1/2 health every time it is used since, IMO, it is just like Guarded by the Force.

Edited October 16, 2012 by Ramtar

[AsiriusNazriel]

This is the reason the devs need look into Force Shroud/Resilience. The Assassin/Shadow should be loosing 1/2 health every time it is used since, IMO, it is just like Guarded by the Force.

 

No they shouldn't be and these 2 abilities are nothing alike. Force Shroud/Resilience is perfectly fine as is. It essentially helps let a player become invisible without bleeds/dots breaking invisibility. Otherwise invisibility would be useless for Assassins/Shadows.

[ebmccown]

1 0 init SetDescription: Description=>"Melee attacks cause the target to bleed."

1 0 init SetDuration: MaxDuration=>15000, Duration=>15000, Toughness=>1

1 0 init SetCharges: InitialCharges=>3, MaxCharges=>3

1 0 init SetStackLimit: MaxStackCount=>1, IsPerCaster=>1

1 1 action ModifyCharges: AmountMin=>3, AmountMax=>3

1 1 action PlayAppearance: AppearanceSpec=>epp.sith_warrior.deadly_saber.cast_instant

1 2 action CallEffect: FromActor=>Caster, EffectNumber=>2

1 3 action ModifyCharges: AmountMin=>-1, AmountMax=>-1

2 0 init SetDescription: Description=>"Periodic elemental damage."

2 0 init SetType: BuffType=>Negative

2 0 init SetCharges: InitialCharges=>1, MaxCharges=>3

2 0 init SetStackLimit: MaxStackCount=>1, IsPerCaster=>1

2 0 init SetName: Name=>"Bleeding (Physical)"

2 0 init SetIcon: IconSpec=>bloomingshot

2 0 init SetDuration: MaxDuration=>6000, Duration=>6000, Toughness=>1

2 0 init SetTickRate: Interval=>3000

2 0 init SetScalesWithCharges

2 0 condition IsAlive: Actor=>Target

2 0 condition IfCalledByEffect

2 1 action SpellDamage: SpellType=>Force, StandardHealthPercentMin=>0.02, Slot=>None, Coefficient=>0.2, StandardHealthPercentMax=>0.02, AmountModifierPercent=>0.01, DamageType=>Elemental

 

I bolded the really important part there. Oh hey, FORCE!

 

And lastly Attack Types, Damage Types, Avoidance and Mitigation in SWTOR.

Edited October 20, 2012 by ebmccown