1.4Sage/Sorc are ranged classes, and as such... should be able to keep 30m Force Stun

[OrionSol]

*Force Stun now costs no Force and has a 10-meter range.

 

This is understandable, and fine for Shadows/Assassins.

 

However, the ranges classes Sage/Sorc this is game breaking. They are ranged, and as such their abilities should be able to be used... AT RANGE.

 

10m for Force Stun is far too short a distance.

[BenjaminminU]

I agree, mercenaries are also in the same situation with this, a ranged class like mercenary needs to be able to keep the overpowered sentinels/marauders at range, the instant a sentinel hits a ranged class its basically over, we have our knockback, and did have rocket punch, which is now being changed so it is no longer a knockback.

 

Honestly, a root for a class that isn't mobile is just useless, and therefore the rocket punch and ranged stun changes in 1.4 shouldn't happen.

[Ohamsie]

I'm not going to say if this change is right or wrong, but I will say that I will go from using my stun a lot as a sorceror to never even touching it. (PVE only player) Edited September 15, 2012 by Ohamsie

[OrionSol]

I'm not going to say if this change is right or wrong, but I will say that I will go from using my stun a lot as a sorceror to never even touching it. (PVE only player)

 

That's the problem... this change was made to placate PVP players without any consideration to PVE play-styles.

[Izorii]

I agree with the OP. Giving a 30 meter ranged class a 10 meter stun realy is stupid. Lets home the same ability that makes force lightning have a 30 meter range also includes electrocute. If not at least I can reclaim the 2 points I put on lowevering the cool down to 50 seconds as the ability will be mostly worthless.

[Macheath]

Fine for Shadows, but not Sages? I think it's the other way around. Shadows are the characters that have to chase their opponent down in order to deal damage. They just had an important long range ability taken away from them, which will hinder their ability to gain melee range on their opponent.

 

The Sage? Half the time they are using this at close range, anyway, and using the stun duration to escape.

 

-Macheath.

[Ansalem]

with all due respect to the pvp crowd out there these changes absolutely suck for ranged pve. I often use my stun from max range in pve scenarios if cc is broken or if I want to stun a trash mob before it can cast something. There is no way I'm going to be using my stun anymore in pve if the range is reduced to 10m. It really leaves a bad taste in my mouth when changes like these go in game.

As for the pvp aspect of this as a BH arsenal merc I can tell you reducing my stun to 10m is terrible. Not only do I get the worst suvivability and mobility in pvp in the game now you want me to wait until a marauder or sin is 10m away to be able to stun? thanks for making it harder for me to escape or survive.

[aurellian]

I'm all for not being stunned by multiple people from halfway across the warzone. Ranged classes could basically stun melee classes and burn them down without the melee class having a chance to react.

 

As for pve, I guess I don't pve enough because never have I thought to myself while fighting a boss or a trash mob; "man if my stun didn't work from this distance it would be completely useless!"

[Macheath]

I wonder what kind of gasket the community would blow if BioWare also chose to bring Force Lift/Whirlwind in line with other comparable abilities, IE., not usable against targets in combat.

 

The bottom line is, with the sheer number of CC abilities in TOR, BioWare has to do damage control. PvP is absolutely dominated by CC, and that's no fun at all. Reducing the range of abilities is a good way to balance them in PvP without affecting PvE. If you thought about it, you'd realize that you don't "have" to be 30 meters away from a mob in PvE.

 

They could have reduced the stun duration. They could have increased the cooldown, or given it a super-low chance of successfully stunning the target. would you prefer any of those ways of balancing over the reduced range? I doubt it. BioWare is going to balance CC abilities in PvP. Be thankful they are going about it in a way that has very little effect on PvE overall.

 

Despite the hyperbole in this thread, a 10 meter range on Force Stun doesn't change it's function, not in PvE. If the mob is ranged, it doesn't matter whether you stand 30 meters or 10 meters away from it, it will stay at range. And melee mobs are going to be within 10 meters of you in combat. Admittedly, it might be less convenient to have to actually move to hit a mob that's 11 or 12 meters away, but really, if the worst that happened is one situational ability became "less convenient," consider yourselves lucky. (My Shadow ALWAYS has to move to hit targets outside of 10 meters, which can be pretty troublesome while tanking. I really won't mind if my Sorcerer is in the same boat for one, single, situational ability.)

 

PvP balance always adversely affects PvE, and vice versa. This change has a rather slight affect on your character's functionality in PvE. I think people need to learn to pick their battles; This one isn't worth fighting.

 

Shadows/Assassins and Merc/Commandos have much stronger cases in favor of leaving the ability alone, but they wouldn't win their arguments, either. CC is simply too powerful in TOR, and BioWare has finally taken notice.

 

-Macheath.

[OrionSol]

Fine for Shadows, but not Sages? I think it's the other way around. Shadows are the characters that have to chase their opponent down in order to deal damage. They just had an important long range ability taken away from them, which will hinder their ability to gain melee range on their opponent.

 

The Sage? Half the time they are using this at close range, anyway, and using the stun duration to escape.

 

-Macheath.

 

 

Yes, because they are a melee class.

[OrionSol]

with all due respect to the pvp crowd out there these changes absolutely suck for ranged pve. I often use my stun from max range in pve scenarios if cc is broken or if i want to stun a trash mob before it can cast something. There is no way i'm going to be using my stun anymore in pve if the range is reduced to 10m. It really leaves a bad taste in my mouth when changes like these go in game.

As for the pvp aspect of this as a bh arsenal merc i can tell you reducing my stun to 10m is terrible. Not only do i get the worst suvivability and mobility in pvp in the game now you want me to wait until a marauder or sin is 10m away to be able to stun? Thanks for making it harder for me to escape or survive.

 

exactly

[Durasturan]

I'm all for not being stunned by multiple people from halfway across the warzone. Ranged classes could basically stun melee classes and burn them down without the melee class having a chance to react.

 

As for pve, I guess I don't pve enough because never have I thought to myself while fighting a boss or a trash mob; "man if my stun didn't work from this distance it would be completely useless!"

 

Let's see, as a sorc how many abilities could I use during the 1.5 second stun time, oh one. Just one. So how much health do you have that that a sorc can "burn you down" with one attack?

 

This is why we can't have nice things. Because people use hyperbole or OUT RIGHT LIE like you are. You are not getting stunned from 30M and burned down by a single sorc, if you are getting attacked by multiple people at once, well guess what happens when three Maras leap to me all at once.

 

Christ people use your noggins.

[Andryah]

That's the problem... this change was made to placate PVP players without any consideration to PVE play-styles.

 

Please show objective proof that no consideration to PvE play-styles was applied. It's pretty clear from Biowares responses to questions about 1.4 skill changes that they do give consideration to affects on PvE. Just because they make a change you do not like DOES NOT = they never gave PvE considertion in their adjustments.

 

I have considered the change in the context of PvE and all it means is that will use it differently then I do today. In other words, it's still a valuable skill in some PvE engagements, but I will apply it differently due to the shortened range.

 

Seriously, it's not that big a deal for PvE, you just need to adjust your mechanics of play to account for it.

 

[This is not directed at anyone in particular, just a general observations ] Having played MMOs for years now, two things are absolutely facts: 1) skills will be changed over the life of a game, and you WILL have to adapt. 2) some people would rather complain and cry then adapt and adjust.

Edited September 16, 2012 by Andryah

[Elyx]

Please show objective proof that no consideration to PvE play-styles was applied. It's pretty clear from Biowares responses to questions about 1.4 skill changes that they do give consideration to affects on PvE. Just because they make a change you do not like DOES NOT = they never gave PvE consideration in their adjustments.

 

I have considered the change in the context of PvE and all it means is that will use it differently then I do today. In other words, it's still a valuable skill in some PvE engagements, but I will apply it differently due to the shortened range.

 

Seriously, it's not that big a deal for PvE, you just need to adjust your mechanics of play to account for it.

 

[This is not directed at anyone in particular, just a general observations ] Having played MMOs for years now, two things are absolutely facts: 1) skills will be changed over the life of a game, and you WILL have to adapt. 2) some people would rather complain and cry then adapt and adjust.

 

Please show me where they have proven that they really listen to player feedback on a regular basis. Please show me where they are always honest and up front about their reasons...and please show me where they never change their mind and go back on things that they said they never would do.

 

Not trying to be snide, but you are asking a bunch of people tho simply blindly trust Bio when they say what they say. I know that currently that's all we have...but the historical evidence does not show that they are always up front with the player base.

 

and just because they took PvE under consideration, doesn't mean the made the right choice. It means that they "took PvE under consideration." Honestly, it sounds more like a placation. especially when it impacts people. and I agree...change and adaptation are part of an MMO. but people make choices, and when a class or game changes to much that they don't like it anymore....they oftentimes choose to leave (remember SWG?)

 

So while the naysayers may be over-exaggerating and being extreme, you are as bad with your "if you have a complaint, then adapt or ****" approach. if people didn't complain, how would Bio know what we want and what we don't want? Of course...bios history also shows that even though we do complain, they rarely do anything about it.

 

Honestly, the changes don't impact me that much (because they really are PVP oriented). the problem I think people have in general, is Bio said they would never make PvP changes that would impact PvE negatively...and this patch is nothing but PvP changes that Do impact PvE (whether its good or bad). this is why people are up in arms. even if you don't agree with their assessement...it part of the PvE game that they like that is impacted that DIDN'T HAVE TO BE.

 

the idea that PvP HAS to impact PvE is sheer ignorance. there are MMO's out there that have proven that PvP can be isolated from PvP and not impact it at all, thus allowing for both game style approaches (PvP and PvE) to work without unduly impacting one another. the real issue is Bio simply does not want to put the work in. but is that the fault of the players?

[OrionSol]

Please show objective proof that no consideration to PvE play-styles was applied. It's pretty clear from Biowares responses to questions about 1.4 skill changes that they do give consideration to affects on PvE. Just because they make a change you do not like DOES NOT = they never gave PvE considertion in their adjustments.

 

I have considered the change in the context of PvE and all it means is that will use it differently then I do today. In other words, it's still a valuable skill in some PvE engagements, but I will apply it differently due to the shortened range.

 

Seriously, it's not that big a deal for PvE, you just need to adjust your mechanics of play to account for it.

 

[This is not directed at anyone in particular, just a general observations ] Having played MMOs for years now, two things are absolutely facts: 1) skills will be changed over the life of a game, and you WILL have to adapt. 2) some people would rather complain and cry then adapt and adjust.

 

Im not going to waste my time trying to prove something to you. It is how I feel, and frankly,,, how the fast majority of players feel.

[MidichIorian]

I just think it's a weird approach to reducing stuns.

 

As I see it a class should be able to use it's stuns in it's effective range. I don't think it's weird that an assassin has a 10 meter stun range because that's actually more than their effective melee range, not to mention their gap closer. Pure melee's and mid range ac'es also have their stuns covering the range they're effective in. To make things worse they're excluding snipers/gunslingers from this nerf by only focusing on the two ac'es that many already consider to be gimped in PvP.

 

It would have been a different story if it had come with a +10 % DPS buff....

Edited September 17, 2012 by MidichIorian

[Ohamsie]

They should just leave them alone but make it so you can't stun other players, just npcs. Let the ability interrupt casts, it just wouldn't stun them.

[Monterone]

And this change will be the last straw for me.

 

I could even get used to losing the AoE knockback in favor of the more aggressive one, but the loss of stun range on a ranged and squishy class is just baffling. I don't like it at all.

 

The class already has identity issues being the only one that has an unusable melee range basic attack, and now they're moving the class even more into some weird melee/ranged hybrid, while they keep ignoring the major issues like force management and survivability (the loss of an AoE KB and a ranged stun are in fact losses on survivability).

 

And before someone says that the addition of a free instant cast heal is going to help on defense -- yes it will, but all it does is offset the butchering of the knockback and the stun, and then we're back to square one with being the squishiest class with the least burst.

 

Increase the range of stun back to 30m when advanced class is picked, like other abilities are handled to separate the two Inquisitor classes.

Edited September 17, 2012 by Monterone

[oakamp]

*Force Stun now costs no Force and has a 10-meter range.

 

This is understandable, and fine for Shadows/Assassins.

 

However, the ranges classes Sage/Sorc this is game breaking. They are ranged, and as such their abilities should be able to be used... AT RANGE.

 

10m for Force Stun is far too short a distance.

 

no, u should reduce 1/2 of ur abilities to 10m, just like other BW nerfed classes,

or u can quit.

[OrionSol]

They should just leave them alone but make it so you can't stun other players, just npcs. Let the ability interrupt casts, it just wouldn't stun them.

 

Sorry, that is a horrible idea.

 

CC/Stun is a style of play as much as tank or dps.

[NoFishing]

I'm not going to say if this change is right or wrong, but I will say that I will go from using my stun a lot as a sorceror to never even touching it. (PVE only player)

 

Yeah, I'll just remove it from my bar. It was nice to use on the EC sappers, assassin droids, or LI medics, but oh well. RIP force stun, you will be missed.

[NoFishing]

If you thought about it, you'd realize that you don't "have" to be 30 meters away from a mob in PvE.

 

EC. Minefield. Sure, I /could/ try running into the yellow square to get a stun off before the assassin droid blows up and kills the party member with the disarming kit...

 

If you really dislike CC that much, tell BW to make force stun unusable against players. Or limit the range on player targets to 10m.

[Macheath]

EC. Minefield. Sure, I /could/ try running into the yellow square to get a stun off before the assassin droid blows up and kills the party member with the disarming kit...

 

If you really dislike CC that much, tell BW to make force stun unusable against players. Or limit the range on player targets to 10m.

 

Relying on an ability as a crutch to see you through a specific encounter does not make that ability an essential skill.

 

The player with the disarming kit can interact with the mine from a single pace inside the yellow square. You can stand 1 pace behind him, allowing you to stun from a range of 8-9 meters away from the guy with the kit. Less convenient? Sure. Game breaking? Hardly. Every other class will be in the same boat, anyway. It's not like you'll start being replaced by other classes because you can no longer stun from 30 meters.

 

-Macheath.

Edited September 18, 2012 by Macheath

[NoFishing]

Relying on an ability as a crutch to see you through a specific encounter does not make that ability an essential skill.

 

The player with the disarming kit can interact with the mine from a single pace inside the yellow square. You can stand 1 pace behind him, allowing you to stun from a range of 8-9 meters away from the guy with the kit. Less convenient? Sure. Game breaking? Hardly. Every other class will be in the same boat, anyway. It's not like you'll start being replaced by other classes because you can no longer stun from 30 meters.

 

-Macheath.

 

Just because I listed a specific situation doesn't make the ability is a crutch.

 

But you are right, it isn't essential to the class, which is why in my previous post I said I would just remove it from my bar. I'm not going close to 9.99m away from a mob to try to get a stun off...the times we have use for it in PvE are not times when we can move closer.

 

Plus, I chose to play a ranged DPS class...I want abilities that work, uhm, at range! You chose a melee class, so you might not understand that.

 

Anyway, as my commando did fine without a real interrupt, my sage will live without a stun.

Edited September 19, 2012 by NoFishing

[OrionSol]

Relying on an ability as a crutch to see you through a specific encounter does not make that ability an essential skill.

 

The player with the disarming kit can interact with the mine from a single pace inside the yellow square. You can stand 1 pace behind him, allowing you to stun from a range of 8-9 meters away from the guy with the kit. Less convenient? Sure. Game breaking? Hardly. Every other class will be in the same boat, anyway. It's not like you'll start being replaced by other classes because you can no longer stun from 30 meters.

 

-Macheath.

 

I used all my CC to control the battlefield... not a "crutch"

 

Do you use your DPS to tanking as a "crutch" ? No, of course not... that is just a silly argument.