Swap jet charge and grapple in 1.4

[Wilsu_Addar]

As much as I hate to say this (because I LOVE grappling people into fire)...with the recent range and snare changes to the Pyro class, we must have a gap closer.

 

This is an easy fix for Bioware.

 

Remove Jet Charge from the tanking tree and make it a baseline Bounty Hunter ability.

 

Make Grapple the 21 point Shield Tech talent, reduce the cooldown slightly to allow for peels in PvP.

 

This gives us a gap closer, reduces the QQ in Huttball about Grapple from all the PT Pyros, and makes Shield Tech more viable as a tank because they will be able to peel better.

 

A very, very simple and easy fix that will allow PT Pyro to remain viable in PvE and PvP.

[iannbrown]

Its really a must at this point. I made a similar post on the test forums. Hopefully they pay attention.

[nDjiin]

As much as I would hate to give up grapple, the fact is a closer is an absolute necessity.

[Keyboard_Cowboy]

There is already a talent in Advanced Prototype called Advanced Tools which lowers the CD on Grapple by 10 seconds. Why would making it a Shield Tech specific do anything?

[SneiK]

I think Leap is something that needs to be considered at this point, but, it would mean that at least FB should be reduced to 4m. And everything still 30m should be reduced to 10m.

 

This would actually make sense, as IM with 10m range atm has no meaning.

Edited September 14, 2012 by SneiK

[nDjiin]

I think everyone can agree that ALL melee classes should have a means of getting thier DPS down in a manner that is no better than any other class - that is why the PT is getting a range nerf but at the same time means they MUST get a closer.

 

I have looked at several options (swapping grapple etc), but the one that makes the most sense and effects the other trees the least is having Jet Charge as a Powertech learnable ability rather than a skill that is specced into.

 

I know there are people out there that have had a bad time with the powertech and as such want a 'revenge' nerf,but at the end of the day, what is best for the game is what needs to be done. Having a broken class that cannot reach its target in time is not good for this game or any other.

[ZeroPlus]

I have looked at several options (swapping grapple etc), but the one that makes the most sense and effects the other trees the least is having Jet Charge as a Powertech learnable ability rather than a skill that is specced into.

 

Could you elaborate a bit more on why you think it would be better for PT/VGs to have both abilities instead of just swapping their availability (ie: Jet Charge trainable at lvl22 and Grapple as a specable skill in the tank tree)?

 

I personally think that having both would be overpowered for a DPS spec but I would like to hear your thoughts on why you think it would be better.

Edited September 14, 2012 by ZeroPlus

[nDjiin]

I think it would be better to leave the Powertech with a grapple because they have very little utility already and removing this would almost seem like fixing one problem by creating another. Its not just about PvP but the class's role in PvE has to be considered also.

 

I understand what you are saying by making it overpowered, so the following could be done :;

 

Make Jest Charge a level 22 trainable ability.

 

Remove Jet charge from the tank tree and instead replace it will a reduction on a the cool down of grapple.

 

At the same time increase the basic cool down of grapple by 1 minute to 1:45, so that the addition of a closer does not overpower the class. The reduction could be 30 secs per point. Making this a 2 point skill, and reducing the Jet Speed boost to a one point skill (but giving you the same bonus as the 2 point version) would make this under used skill more worth while.

 

The other benefit I see is being able to take Hydraulic overdrives as well as having a Jet Boost closer - making the AP tree more and more used and having as much utility as any other DPS class.

 

I know there could be easier ways of doing this, but I have put a lot of thought into it and of course I want to put forward a spec that is not OP and will fit into BW's idea of class direction this year and next. At the same time making the class not over / underpowered in BOTH PvP and PvE.

[ZeroPlus]

I think it would be better to leave the Powertech with a grapple because they have very little utility already and removing this would almost seem like fixing one problem by creating another. Its not just about PvP but the class's role in PvE has to be considered also.

 

I understand what you are saying by making it overpowered, so the following could be done :;

 

Make Jest Charge a level 22 trainable ability.

 

Remove Jet charge from the tank tree and instead replace it will a reduction on a the cool down of grapple.

 

At the same time increase the basic cool down of grapple by 1 minute to 1:45, so that the addition of a closer does not overpower the class. The reduction could be 30 secs per point. Making this a 2 point skill, and reducing the Jet Speed boost to a one point skill (but giving you the same bonus as the 2 point version) would make this under used skill more worth while.

 

The other benefit I see is being able to take Hydraulic overdrives as well as having a Jet Boost closer - making the AP tree more and more used and having as much utility as any other DPS class.

 

I know there could be easier ways of doing this, but I have put a lot of thought into it and of course I want to put forward a spec that is not OP and will fit into BW's idea of class direction this year and next. At the same time making the class not over / underpowered in BOTH PvP and PvE.

 

Hmmm... I see where you are coming from, but...

 

By swapping the availability of Grapple and Jet Charge, Shield Techs would still have a way to close the distance to mobs they needed to aggro at lvl22 and at lvl30 they would be able to spec into Grapple and gain the utility to pull mobs to them allowing them control pulls better. This is no different than what happens with Assassin tanks who can spec into Force Pull at lvl30.

 

Also, reread what you are suggesting and look at how many changes would be needed to the trees if both Grapple and Jet Charge were made available to all PTs. Now think about what would be needed if the only thing that happened was that the way they are available is swapped. All that would really be needed would be to remove the current dependancy that Jet Speed and Flame Surge have on the Jet Charge skill. They could still be in the tree in the same exact spot with no other change.

 

Anyway, those are my thoughts. Hopefully Bioware is seeing these threads and discussing these ideas internally as well. Whether they actually do anything though is another question. They have access to information we don't and, ultimately, this is their game: we just pay to play it .

[CharterMonkKent]

If you want both now as DPS you can run this spec in CGC. It's fun and not too bad if you are geared. You will confuse people It's no 'carolina parakeet' that's long gone but it's something different.

 

http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#301GMhddMboZ0MZfhrbzh.2

 

PT/Vans would be over powered if DPS branches were given another gap closer. AP has two already between grapple and HO. Pyro has one because as we all know it has a low skill cap. Having 2 gap closers would lower that cap even more while increasing the effectiveness too much for highly skilled players.

 

Maybe having the DPS trees share cool down with charge & grapple. But that's a big maybe, and only if you make the interrupt on charge only available to ST.

[BlazingShadow]

What if they made jet chage universal, but in return increased CD to 20sec, reduced range to 5-20m, and changed the shieldtech jetcharge box to simply upgrade charge to it's current state? It would ket us keep grapple, but give us a 2nd gap closer with reasonable limitations.

[nDjiin]

If you want both now as DPS you can run this spec in CGC. It's fun and not too bad if you are geared. You will confuse people It's no 'carolina parakeet' that's long gone but it's something different.

 

http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#301GMhddMboZ0MZfhrbzh.2

 

PT/Vans would be over powered if DPS branches were given another gap closer. AP has two already between grapple and HO. Pyro has one because as we all know it has a low skill cap. Having 2 gap closers would lower that cap even more while increasing the effectiveness too much for highly skilled players.

 

Maybe having the DPS trees share cool down with charge & grapple. But that's a big maybe, and only if you make the interrupt on charge only available to ST.

 

The point is that in WZ where resolve is an issue and in boss fights where they have cc immunity, grapple is all but useless.

 

What if they made jet chage universal, but in return increased CD to 20sec, reduced range to 5-20m, and changed the shieldtech jetcharge box to simply upgrade charge to it's current state? It would ket us keep grapple, but give us a 2nd gap closer with reasonable limitations.

 

That could work - I hope a dev is reading this stuff.

Edited September 14, 2012 by nDjiin

[CharterMonkKent]

The point is that in WZ where resolve is an issue and in boss fights where they have cc immunity, grapple is all but useless.

 

 

 

That could work - I hope a dev is reading this stuff.

 

I understand the point. But this would give more gap closers to PT than other class (3 for AP). It's unnecessary for a mid-range DPS spec in PvP.

 

In PvE, I'm hard pressed to think of when a dps would grapple a boss.

[DacRycar]

I understand the point. But this would give more gap closers to PT than other class (3 for AP). It's unnecessary for a mid-range DPS spec in PvP.

 

In PvE, I'm hard pressed to think of when a dps would grapple a boss.

 

Hydraulic Override and Hold the Line are NOT a gap closers, people!

Edited September 14, 2012 by DacRycar

[CharterMonkKent]

Hydraulic Override and Hold the Line are NOT a gap closers, people!

 

As someone who plays AP, yes HO is a gap closer. If people don't use it as one then they are missing the point.

 

It's a speed increase that makes one immune to roots, snares, slows and knock backs. aka gap closer.

[DacRycar]

As someone who plays AP, yes HO is a gap closer. If people don't use it as one then they are missing the point.

 

It's a speed increase that makes one immune to roots, snares, slows and knock backs. aka gap closer.

 

I'm assuming you're in the school of folks who believe Grapple is a gap closer as well.

[CharterMonkKent]

I'm assuming you're in the school of folks who believe Grapple is a gap closer as well.

 

I usually use it to peel or to pull a healer out of range from their tank. But either way grapple is clearly a gap closer. It reduces the distance between you and your target. That distance is literally called a gap

[DacRycar]

I usually use it to peel or to pull a healer out of range from their tank. But either way grapple is clearly a gap closer. It reduces the distance between you and your target. That distance is literally called a gap

 

She explains it best, so I'll defer you over here.

[CharterMonkKent]

She explains it best, so I'll defer you over here.

 

Her post assumes that PT/Van are melee classes, they are not. She also says grapple both is and is not a gap closer. If a PT/Van wants the utility of a charge the class already allows it.

 

But to each their own. I'd rather not see PT become the completely OP.

[nDjiin]

Hydraulic Override and Hold the Line are NOT a gap closers, people!

 

Agreed, it is a mild boost to speed that is basically pointless when try to close on an opponent that is 35m from you.

[nDjiin]

Her post assumes that PT/Van are melee classes, they are not. She also says grapple both is and is not a gap closer. If a PT/Van wants the utility of a charge the class already allows it.

 

But to each their own. I'd rather not see PT become the completely OP.

 

Belive me they wont - the problem was a 50% snare mixed with a large set of ranged abilities made it hard for people to put down DPS on you.

 

And for all intents and purposes they will be melee classes from 1.4. The question is if they will be a broken one or not.

[dijskykiller]

Based on the upcoming nerfs on pyro i do agree that we need a gap closer and this is one of the possible solutions with some minor twitches on AP tree's HO with JC. They can make HO and JC share the same CD so it won't be OP for APs. In addition, grapple makes more sense in ST tree as well as JC for the powertech class. Increasing the CD of JC on dps trees and decreasing it in ST will balance all specs without gimping the pyro tree, which will be a melee class without any gap closer.

[Teioh_White]

I agree with the swapping Charge/Grapple, as with the new 10m range for everything but auto attack basically, a gap closer is a must. Even if Grapple was supposed to be our gap closer, 45 second recast is just too much for one of those. And while it's useless on bosses/full resolve, maybe make grapple instead pull you in on something when you use it on something which can't be pulled.

[FeralPug]

I've said it before, but I want to say it this thread as well:

 

Swapping jet charge with grapple would mean yet another nerf for the DPS trees. This is a horrendously poorly thought out proposal. The opinion to make this change is absolutely not representative of the superb powertechs I am fortunate enough to play with on a daily basis.

 

Pyro will be fine in 1.4. AP will viable finally. The tank tree needs tweaking, but at least we'll have 2 out of 3 specs that are worth playing in PVP.

 

Don't eff things up by requesting poorly thought out changes.

Edited September 15, 2012 by FeralPug

[DarkSaberMaster]

I'm starting to come around to this idea.