The hard truth for DPS Sages

[enoax]

If you look closesly at the simcraft data you're relying on... you'll notice the madness/balance spec has the 9% less force for each cast which most do NOT take (I certainly don't when i spec balance). Look at the RPE section... all the abilities are being cast ~ 91% of the cost. Removing that takes your 'RPS out' to 15 from 13.6... ie. force negative.

 

Now you could take inner strength I suppose and not take clamoring force or disturb mind.. but then you are nerfing your dps (mind crush is ~ 40% of your dps and your highest DPET) ~ 1798 vs. 1783 or 1%.

 

Even if you take both resource abilities in first row of TK tree you are only force neutral while you are standing still but not really in any practical situation.

 

Add in movement and TK becomes force neutral/positive and balance force negative.

 

http://www.simulationcraft.org/swtor/130/Sage_Sorcerer_Raid_Campaign-HeavyMovement.html

Edited September 17, 2012 by enoax

[SoonerJBD]

If you look closesly at the simcraft data you're relying on... you'll notice the madness/balance spec has the 9% less force for each cast which most do NOT take (I certainly don't when i spec balance). Look at the RPE section... all the abilities are being cast ~ 91% of the cost. Removing that takes your 'RPS out' to 15 from 13.6... ie. force negative.

 

Now you could take inner strength I suppose and not take clamoring force or disturb mind.. but then you are nerfing your dps (mind crush is ~ 40% of your dps and your highest DPET) ~ 1798 vs. 1783 or 1%.

 

Even if you take both resource abilities in first row of TK tree you are only force neutral while you are standing still but not really in any practical situation.

 

Add in movement and TK becomes force neutral/positive and balance force negative.

 

http://www.simulationcraft.org/swtor/130/Sage_Sorcerer_Raid_Campaign-HeavyMovement.html

 

It's clear from this comment that you have no idea how a balance build/rotation works. Mind Crush is not anywhere close to 40 percent of your DPS in a full balance build. It is less than half that. It's more like 16-18 percent. TK Throw accounts for 30-40 percent of your DPS depending on the encounter. Force in Balance is about 15 percent. Sever Force and Weaken Mind both chart at about 12-13 percent of your DPS, with your relic accounting for the remaining 3 percent or so.

 

Mind Crush is an important ability, but nowhere close to 40 percent of your DPS. You are suggesting I should take Clamoring Force, a talent that buffs four abilities, two of which I don't even have (turbulence and TK Wave) and one I never use (disturbance is worse DPS than spamming TK throw under any circumstance) at the expense of running out of force in pretty much any boss fight? Yeah, that sounds like a great idea.

 

And as for movement, again you have no idea what you are talking about. Virtually all movement in a PvE fight can be mitigated if you know the encounter. The balance rotation is far easier to get right in a movement heavy fight (which is why it closes in on the TK spec in these fights). And the really movement-heavy fights typically have mechanics where you aren't attacking for some period and you are getting force regeneration. I have run every raid in this game, and the only time I run out of force is if I take a battle res or I am heavily casting force armor and self-heals, which means the raid is going wrong big time. In most raids, I'm never at less than 60-70 percent force. A full balance build does not struggle with resource management. It's just that simple.

[enoax]

A typo. You're right it's only ~ 20-30%. 30% from BIS simcraft parse. 20% from most parses posted. Still a huge chunk of dps with high DPET and when I parsed it with simcraft ~ 1% dps difference using clamoring force. But thanks for agreeing it's an important ability which was the point.

 

Yes i think you should take clamoring force if you want to do your best damage (you made this thread complaining about your relative dps to other classes, remember?!?! ). There is no point to finishing a fight will full force. Running with clamoring force you'll still (almost) never have problems with force unles you're being inefficient.

 

Why wouldn't you take a 6% dps buff to 1 of 5 of your abilities?

 

Look 6 posts up. I clearly stated that movement should have no effect on your dps.

 

Look 2 posts up. I simply stated that moving has more of an effect on FORCE REGENERATION for balance and helps TK. You move with TK you get 10.4 force/s and a 59% force reduction on project (20.8 force - 18.5 force = +2.3 force for a 2s move) You move with balance you interupt your TT channel (but still pay the upfront cost), full cost project (9% -reduction if you spec inner strength), and only 8force/s regen (16 force - 41 force = -25 force for a 2 s move ignoring the wasted cost of TT). Balance relies almost exclusively on pyschic barrier for force regen, which you can't do when moving.

 

I finish most fights with 50-60% force in balance spec. I finish all fights with 80-100% spec'd TK even when casting project, heals, bubbles, forcequake etc. Balance does NOT have better force regen than TK which is your ONLY point I'm refuting.

Edited September 18, 2012 by enoax

[GARhenus]

does this mean sage/sorc damage is negligible at best?

 

coz the only thing that matters is if it's still doing enough damage to make others keel over

[SoonerJBD]

A typo. You're right it's only ~ 20-30%. 30% from BIS simcraft parse. 20% from most parses posted. Still a huge chunk of dps with high DPET and when I parsed it with simcraft ~ 1% dps difference using clamoring force. But thanks for agreeing it's an important ability which was the point.

 

Yes i think you should take clamoring force if you want to do your best damage (you made this thread complaining about your relative dps to other classes, remember?!?! ). There is no point to finishing a fight will full force. Running with clamoring force you'll still (almost) never have problems with force unles you're being inefficient.

 

Why wouldn't you take a 6% dps buff to 1 of 5 of your abilities?

 

Look 6 posts up. I clearly stated that movement should have no effect on your dps.

 

Look 2 posts up. I simply stated that moving has more of an effect on FORCE REGENERATION for balance and helps TK. You move with TK you get 10.4 force/s and a 59% force reduction on project (20.8 force - 18.5 force = +2.3 force for a 2s move) You move with balance you interupt your TT channel (but still pay the upfront cost), full cost project (9% -reduction if you spec inner strength), and only 8force/s regen (16 force - 41 force = -25 force for a 2 s move ignoring the wasted cost of TT). Balance relies almost exclusively on pyschic barrier for force regen, which you can't do when moving.

 

I finish most fights with 50-60% force in balance spec. I finish all fights with 80-100% spec'd TK even when casting project, heals, bubbles, forcequake etc. Balance does NOT have better force regen than TK which is your ONLY point I'm refuting.

 

Why would I waste three skill points on a talent when I'm only getting 1/4 of the benefit it offers? The difference in DPS from clamoring force is miniscule for a full balance build. There are plenty of better places to put those points. And what we are talking about here has nothing to do with clamoring force. It has to do with Bioware not balancing the PvE DPS classes even with the best possible DPS they can put out in the best possible build.

 

I still reject your premise that the Balance build has force issues. I never run out of force in any of these encounters, and you never should if you are doing a proper rotation. The balance rotation is force neurtral. The TK rotation is not. It's that simple.

[SoonerJBD]

does this mean sage/sorc damage is negligible at best?

 

coz the only thing that matters is if it's still doing enough damage to make others keel over

 

Not sure what you are saying here. This is a PvE discussion, not a PvP discussion. Sages/Sorcerers put out roughly 10 percent less DPS than the better builds in BiS gear. This absolutely makes a difference in the toughest raids, and it goes against Bioware's own stated goal of keeping the DPS classes within 5 percent of one another in PvE content.

[enoax]

Ok. Keep sacrificing dps and taking Inner strength over clamouring force to keep your rotation force neutral. To me dropping a dps talent for a 9% cost reduction talent is an admission that the spec has force issues.

 

I agree it's off topic..

[Kuvox]

Sages/Sorcerers put out roughly 10 percent less DPS than the better builds in BiS gear. This absolutely makes a difference in the toughest raids, and it goes against Bioware's own stated goal of keeping the DPS classes within 5 percent of one another in PvE content.

 

So true.

 

To take an example, last night we did our weekly Nightmare Pilgrim raid. We brought in a mostly PVP Sentinel who was in mostly War Hero gear (because he wants to start raiding) and the guy was only 50 DPS lower than I was. I am only missing the Advanced Resolve Armoring 26 pieces for my orange belt and bracers and I'm 100% BiS yet this guy comes in with mostly augmented War Hero gear (and 3 augmented Rakata pieces and 1 augmented BH piece) and does that well.

 

So I guess my point is this: I had to work very hard to get my Sage to BiS, and to put out a lot of DPS, and this Sentinel who isn't even close to BiS was within my DPS range. This is why for Terror we're just not taking DPS Sages into it at first. I'm going in as heals.

[Khevar]

SoonerJBD, the 1.3 BiS build for Balance uses Clamoring Force (Convection) in the build, and Mind Crush (Crushing Darkness) in the rotation, which is an instant cast with Presense of Mind (Wrath).

 

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=499626

http://mmo-mechanics.com/swtor/forums/thread-947.html

 

I agree that the BW needs to address the dps discrepancy, but you're impeding the case when your description of a full balance build and rotation is at odds with the work that some the best Sage/Sorcerer theorycrafters have done.

Edited September 18, 2012 by Khevar

[SoonerJBD]

SoonerJBD, the 1.3 BiS build for Balance uses Clamoring Force (Convection) in the build, and Mind Crush (Crushing Darkness) in the rotation, which is an instant cast with Presense of Mind (Wrath).

 

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=499626

http://mmo-mechanics.com/swtor/forums/thread-947.html

 

I agree that the BW needs to address the dps discrepancy, but you're impeding the case when your description of a full balance build and rotation is at odds with the work that some the best Sage/Sorcerer theorycrafters have done.

 

Uh, when did I ever say you don't use Mind Crush? It's one of your most important abilities in any balance build. I only said it's not 40 percent of your DPS. It's just under 20 percent in nearly every encounter. I cast it on cooldown with PoM and after FiB so I get the force suppression buff. And it is never more than 20 percent of my DPS. I've run balance builds with both clamoring force and inner strength. I prefer being able to throw the occasional off-heal and not worrying about force issues. My parses showed I lost less than 1 percent of my DPS running with inner strength instead of clamoring force. Theorycrafting is great. I use those BiS setups as targets. The SimC data is a good approximation of DPS a given build/gear combination might put out. But you don't raid against ops dummies or in SimC. When I actually parsed the numbers in my raids, I found the sacrifice of less than 1 percent of my DPS was worth being able to off-heal and throw force armor when needed. Your results or opinion may vary. Frankly, if I were merely worried about what the SimC results show, I wouldn't run a balance build at all. The TK build does better. I run a balance build because I prefer the mobility and the rotation.

 

And again, this is entirely off the topic. Whether you use inner strength or clamoring force or a balance build or a tk build, Sages aren't getting within 5 percent DPS of many of the other DPS classes. If they are going to offer a full balance DPS tree for Sages, the balance build should put out DPS within 5 percent of other advanced classes and specs as they said they intended.

[Sepulch]

All this means is that your wife is a good player and that the others in her guild are probably only OK..

So if someone talks about doing top damage with a sage the others players are only "ok", the sage good and thus the reason of the performance of the player behind the sage . But if a sage talks about NOT being able to do top damage, then we need to look into class design and performance, the level of the other players and/or the player behind the sage are suddenly irrelevant ? Does not compute, very inconsistent reasoning.

 

There is never a real mathematical balance among MMORPG classes, the level of balance obtained often depends on the level of skill required to squeeze that DPS out of the class and the ability of said player to achieve this. Expecting two different classes to perform the same for every person regardless the skill is frankly on one side a boring prospect, on the other side something quite unachievable unless you want to change the MMORPG formula to a pick-up and play Call Of Duty style, which I frankly do NOT want thank you very much.

Edited September 19, 2012 by Sepulch

[SoonerJBD]

So if someone talks about doing top damage with a sage the others players are only "ok", the sage good and thus the reason of the performance of the player behind the sage . But if a sage talks about NOT being able to do top damage, then we need to look into class design and performance, the level of the other players and/or the player behind the sage are suddenly irrelevant ? Does not compute, very inconsistent reasoning.

 

There is never a real mathematical balance among MMORPG classes, the level of balance obtained often depends on the level of skill required to squeeze that DPS out of the class and the ability of said player to achieve this. Expecting two different classes to perform the same for every person regardless the skill is frankly on one side a boring prospect, on the other side something quite unachievable unless you want to change the MMORPG formula to a pick-up and play Call Of Duty style, which I frankly do NOT want thank you very much.

 

No one is saying the classes should perform the same regardless of player skill. The issue is that given equal skill and gear, a Sage will never put up top DPS in a PvE raid. It's not that skill doesn't play a role, it's that the math shows that other classes get a head start regardless of their skill. As a DPS scoundrel or sage, you can be more skilled than another DPS with equal gear and still put out less damage than a sentinel or gunslinger. That should not be the case. And we are not saying the classes need to be perfectly balanced. But Bioware developers said themselves that their target is for all DPS classes to be within 5 percent of each other, and that simply isn't the case. What happened to that target, and why aren't they making changes to accomplish it?

[tehjifbo]

I'm amazed at how much terrible info is in here. I'll help, 30%crit(can have less) 75%surge, rest power. Those are your stats. Get power/surge enhancements and willpower/power mods. Our 2 sages are number 2 and 3 on damage on MOX. Dummy doing 1800-2200 on spikes and lucky crits. Just min/Max your gear correctly and you won't suck.

[Khevar]

I'm amazed at how much terrible info is in here. I'll help, 30%crit(can have less) 75%surge, rest power. Those are your stats. Get power/surge enhancements and willpower/power mods. Our 2 sages are number 2 and 3 on damage on MOX. Dummy doing 1800-2200 on spikes and lucky crits. Just min/Max your gear correctly and you won't suck.

I think you're missing the point of the original post. SoonerJBD is asking for Bioware to bring dps in alignment with other classes.

 

Note: In the raid groups I've been in, sage dps is enough to handle the most challenging content.

 

However, when those groups also contain a very good gunslinger or sentinel, they fall behind.

 

Now, there are very few sources of solid data to back this anectodal evidence. But one such source is SimC parses for BiS geared toons with a good rotation. These also show sage dps falling behind. Another one is ranked logs (e.g. askmrobot) which have marauder dps (for the most part) far and away exceeding the other classes.

 

It would be nice to have some input from the devs on this subject. The stated goal is dps builds within 5% of each other, which doesn't appear to be the case.

[Kuvox]

I'm amazed at how much terrible info is in here. I'll help, 30%crit(can have less) 75%surge, rest power. Those are your stats. Get power/surge enhancements and willpower/power mods. Our 2 sages are number 2 and 3 on damage on MOX. Dummy doing 1800-2200 on spikes and lucky crits. Just min/Max your gear correctly and you won't suck.

 

This is very hard for me to believe. You need to back up what you're saying with some parser data.

 

First, as far as I know--as well as many in the community--no Sorc/Sage can currently achieve 2000 let alone 2200 DPS on multiple bosses. Sorc/Sages can definitely achieve DPS as high as even 5000 or so on MOBS but never on multiple bosses. The highest I got was 1830 but that was because the tanks positioned Jarg and Sorno somewhat near each other so that my TK Wave, which proc'd frequently, hit both. In any case, according to MMO-Mechanics the highest DPS a Sorc/Sage can currently achieve is 1853.1 (see here). Another site, whose name escapes me at the moment, has confirmed the same thing. If you have parser data to show otherwise you really should post it.

 

Second, stacking power is not BiS. Stacking willpower is. This thread explains in detail why.

[tehjifbo]

This is very hard for me to believe. You need to back up what you're saying with some parser data.

 

First, as far as I know--as well as many in the community--no Sorc/Sage can currently achieve 2000 let alone 2200 DPS on multiple bosses. Sorc/Sages can definitely achieve DPS as high as even 5000 or so on MOBS but never on multiple bosses. The highest I got was 1830 but that was because the tanks positioned Jarg and Sorno somewhat near each other so that my TK Wave, which proc'd frequently, hit both. In any case, according to MMO-Mechanics the highest DPS a Sorc/Sage can currently achieve is 1853.1 (see here). Another site, whose name escapes me at the moment, has confirmed the same thing. If you have parser data to show otherwise you really should post it.

 

Second, stacking power is not BiS. Stacking willpower is. This thread explains in detail why.

 

I will be sure to post some Screenshots and proof behind it next tuesday for sure. I came off as a douche before, i apologize for that but still, people saying sage dps is bad must just not understand how to play it correctly.

 

My guild has had EC HM on farm for sooooooo long and 2 sages are top and have been the entire time. Ill make some videos showing the gameplay when played correctly with MOX parsing data provided.

 

The dummy dps is with all buffs, stim, and proper adrenals- which our entire raid team has 24/7. Hitting 2k+ on dummy is not very difficult.

 

For people trying to finish EC or find the best spec for sage in it, the 1/12/28 Hybrid is by far the best for almost every boss in there. Easy rotation and you never have to stop doing damage. For example, on Toth and Zorn you are obviously on Zorn. When the jump happens, he wipes dots before fearful so 31 point balance suffers greatly. TK and Hybrid has 1 dot to maintain so re-applying is not an issue or a huge dps loss. During feet phase TK has to cast to damage, so it suffers much more than balance. The hybrid is the best of both worlds, simple up-keep, and a side-step to TK throw spam is no problem.

 

TLDR; If you want to do huge dps and do it easily, go hybrid for EC and use the proper item modifications. If you have alacrity, you are doing it wrong.

[Kuvox]

So if someone talks about doing top damage with a sage the others players are only "ok", the sage good and thus the reason of the performance of the player behind the sage . But if a sage talks about NOT being able to do top damage, then we need to look into class design and performance, the level of the other players and/or the player behind the sage are suddenly irrelevant ? Does not compute, very inconsistent reasoning.

 

There is never a real mathematical balance among MMORPG classes, the level of balance obtained often depends on the level of skill required to squeeze that DPS out of the class and the ability of said player to achieve this. Expecting two different classes to perform the same for every person regardless the skill is frankly on one side a boring prospect, on the other side something quite unachievable unless you want to change the MMORPG formula to a pick-up and play Call Of Duty style, which I frankly do NOT want thank you very much.

 

You misinterpreted what I wrote.

 

What I'm trying to say is this: all things being equal, Sorc/Sage DPS will absolutely be lower than many other classes. In other words, currently no matter how amazing a Sorc/Sage is, he or she will not be able to consistently beat an equally skilled and geared teammate playing the higher DPS classes of say a Gunslinger or Sentinel. It's simply impossible as the game's mechanics will cap him/her. The merits of the reasons behind this is beyond the scope of this thread.

 

Let me give you an example, every Sunday we do EC Hardmode. I'm usually third in DPS behind our Gunslinger and Sentinel. Two Sundays ago, however, we couldn't run it so I joined another guild for their EC HM run. I was top DPS, and by far. I beat their Sentinel, Vanguard, and Gunslinger in every fight. The thing is, these players are just as geared as my guild's players. My DPS was only slightly better for each of this operation's bosses than is normal. Such a result meant only that these other players were not playing their classes to their fullest potential because they couldn't match my guild's Gunslinger and Sentinel in DPS (or frankly even come close).

 

Putting all of this differently, when some people see Sorcs/Sages routinely top the DPS charts in boss fights they incorrectly assume that this class is capable of being right up there with the others. This is understandable until they come across players who play their Gunslinger or Sentinel to its max and then realize that Sages/Sorcs really are quite a bit down the DPS tree.

[SoonerJBD]

A couple of points. First, no one is saying Sages do "bad" DPS. I've cleared EC with my Sage and I do plenty of damage. We are saying Sage DPS is not within the promised 5 percent of the other top DPS specs given equal gearing and player skill. It's not just that SimC and the ranked parses show Sage DPS running lower. It's that they show it running well out of that 5 percent range. More like 10 percent or more when compared to some of the best performing specs. If Usain Bolt started 5 meters behind the field in the 100m dash, he might still win. He's that talented. But the rest of the field shouldn't get a head start. I shouldn't have to be the Usain Bolt of DPSers to lead a raid with highly-skilled players in other DPS classes. They shouldn't get a head start.

 

Second, the hybrid build is WELL behind both balance and TK in DPS output. Now I agree that it is the easiest rotation. I played the hybrid build before and after the nerf in 1.2 that took away Presence of Mind insta-cast TK Waves. Once the combat logging was put in and I started parsing my numbers, I found I got a 5 percent bump from balance on nearly every fight. The hybrid build may perform slightly better in some encounters, but it will still be behind both balance and TK in pretty much every fight if the person playing knows what they are doing. Toth and Zorn is a good example. Yes, the leap cleanses dots. But I time my dots so that they run out around the time of the leap and I don't get them clipped too much by the cleanse. Plus, Toth and Zorn tax your rotation no matter what build you are running. The only attacks the hybrid build uses are Force in Balance, TK Throw, Weaken Mind and Mind Crush. Weaken Mind and Mind Crush are dots just the same as they are for a full balance build and are cleansed just the same. Force in Balance is on the same 15 second cooldown as for a full balance build. And TK throw is channeled and can't be cast on the run during the sonic paralysis phase. Plus, it's your primary source of damage and you spam it constantly while Mind Crush and FiB are on their 15 second cooldowns, so any movement is going to cause you DPS issues.

 

An unskilled player who can't track dots, anticipate movement, know boss phases or recognize when their procs are up might do slightly better with a hybrid build. That doesn't make the hybrid build better. A skilled player using a balance or TK build will put out more DPS than a hybrid build in every raid fight currently in the game.

[SoonerJBD]

Also, Kuvox hit on this, but your stat priorities are not entirely accurate. The best theorycrafting has generated best-in-slot gearing setups for each spec. Those of us who are min-maxing are using those setups as targets. Willpower is ALWAYS better than power for Sages. It puts out more DPS than power well past current gearing levels because the crit you get from willpower is on a different curve than the one from crit rating.

[Ewgal]

Why would I waste three skill points on a talent when I'm only getting 1/4 of the benefit it offers?

 

You are actually gimping yourself if you don't have clamouring Force. It is really important to get the maximum out of Mind Crush.

[Meepbot]

No, it isn't. The Sims can be modified to factor in heavy movement, and we still come in bottom of the list.

 

Dont say that on the merc and Op forums. Or the Sin (Deception) threads as well.

[enoax]

Dont say that on the merc and Op forums. Or the Sin (Deception) threads as well.

 

Mercs are better PVE dps than Sages. DPS ops and Sin's are getting a buff, rightly so, but not because sages/sorcs can beat them on joust/movement/knockback fights but because marauders are clearly superior. Comparing melee and range is a bit complicated. Most melee can dps while moving but may have range issues. Ranged will be more affected by movement but not have range issues. Melee should have a bit more burst, ranged should have a bit more sustained. I think that's true for the most part.

 

I think each class should have a unique ability/skill that they bring to an ops /group to make them desirable rather than just 'dps' numbers. Take Maruader/ Sentinels Inpsiration/Blood lust for example, that group buff is rediculous and it's desirable to have 1 (8 man) or 2 (16 man) for that reason alone. Combine that with runspead and passive aoe heals (however weak they are), best defensive cooldowns, shortest cooldown interupt and their superior dps.. and you see inbalance. In certain situations the gunslinger/sniper dome can be great but it's pretty situational and pales in comparison.

 

Mercs and Sages have incombat cc's i guess. But most classes do have a cc of some kind. Sages have a potentially very useful threat drop that was useful if used correctly pre 1.2. However it was broken then and threat is no longer an issue rendering it completely useless.

 

IMO each AC should bring something unique and useful to an ops. Like a temp Crit bonus, an armor penetration bonus, healing received buff or even just raid wide migitation or threat management. Since that doesn't exist it comes down to dps numbers for 'usefullness' which puts sages at the bottom for ranged classes and near the bottom overall.

Edited September 25, 2012 by enoax

[Meepbot]

Mercs are better PVE dps than Sages. DPS ops and Sin's are getting a buff, rightly so, but not because sages/sorcs can beat them on joust/movement/knockback fights but because marauders are clearly superior. Comparing melee and range is a bit complicated. Most melee can dps while moving but may have range issues. Ranged will be more affected by movement but not have range issues. Melee should have a bit more burst, ranged should have a bit more sustained. I think that's true for the most part.

 

I think each class should have a unique ability/skill that they bring to an ops /group to make them desirable rather than just 'dps' numbers. Take Maruader/ Sentinels Inpsiration/Blood lust for example, that group buff is rediculous and it's desirable to have 1 (8 man) or 2 (16 man) for that reason alone. Combine that with runspead and passive aoe heals (however weak they are), best defensive cooldowns, shortest cooldown interupt and their superior dps.. and you see inbalance. In certain situations the gunslinger/sniper dome can be great but it's pretty situational and pales in comparison.

 

Mercs and Sages have incombat cc's i guess. But most classes do have a cc of some kind. Sages have a potentially very useful threat drop that was useful if used correctly pre 1.2. However it was broken then and threat is no longer an issue rendering it completely useless.

 

IMO each AC should bring something unique and useful to an ops. Like a temp Crit bonus, an armor penetration bonus, healing received buff or even just raid wide migitation or threat management. Since that doesn't exist it comes down to dps numbers for 'usefullness' which puts sages at the bottom for ranged classes and near the bottom overall.

 

Not necessarily disputing your point, but I would like to point out if i go to the scoundrel forums (Their DPS only really got a movement buff), or if i go to the merc forums, or I go to the sage forums, or i go to advanced prototype threads in the PT forums (however few there are), or i go to the Vengeance/Rage comparison threads in the juggernaut forums (post 1.4), every one of them has complaints with their DPS, and every one of them has numbers to "prove" it. They all compare themselves with the snipers and the sentinels, and every single one finds themselves to be underpowered, or gimped, or broken. Sages are not the only ones pulling "sub-par" DPS, maybe its not that every other AC is sub-par, but Snipers/Sentinels are too far ahead?

[Khevar]

Not necessarily disputing your point, but I would like to point out if i go to the scoundrel forums (Their DPS only really got a movement buff), or if i go to the merc forums, or I go to the sage forums, or i go to advanced prototype threads in the PT forums (however few there are), or i go to the Vengeance/Rage comparison threads in the juggernaut forums (post 1.4), every one of them has complaints with their DPS, and every one of them has numbers to "prove" it. They all compare themselves with the snipers and the sentinels, and every single one finds themselves to be underpowered, or gimped, or broken. Sages are not the only ones pulling "sub-par" DPS, maybe its not that every other AC is sub-par, but Snipers/Sentinels are too far ahead?

This is an excellent point and this may very well be the solution.

 

If Sage's were at the bottom of the pile but still within 5% of the leader, I for one would be very happy, as the utility of the Sage would make up for the 5% difference.

 

I just wish we could get some dev involvement to comment on these issues.

[enoax]

Heh, yeah everyone is going to think their class is the worse off, that's unavoidable. I mostly go by max theoretical dps provided by bis optimized simcraft 'parsing' . Unfortunately, modules don't exist for some acs, and some of the modules have had much more work done with them to validate them.

 

Whether its nerf snipers and mauraders or buff the rest I don't really care. I really hate nerfs/ buffs based on pvp crying which is what has motivated alot of the nerfs/ buffs so far. think I'd prefer some unique group utility tbh rather than just a dps boost.