Powertech in 1.4......Devs please read

[DacRycar]

OP, please remove 'Powetech' from the Thread name.

 

AP gets buffed.

 

Pyro gets a much needed nerf (although, I only agree with the TD 10meter part)

 

...The real problem is, they didn't touch the Shield Tech, which needs a total overhaul of talents for PvP.

 

Powerechs will be fine.

 

 

^^^^^x100000

I honestly didn't care about the Pyro nerfs and the AP buffs until I saw how they didn't touch the Shield Tech...

 

√100000

 

No.

 

First, SneiK's comment about the "much needed nerf" to Pyro, but only the Thermal Detonator. This sort of wishy washy commentary is not substantial. The reasoning behind the changes to Pyro is BioWare's attempt to prevent PTs from staying at ranged. Though TD was a key to this wind-up, Incendiary Missile/Rail Shot were targeted as the key problems. While TD was on a 15-second cooldown, IM was "spammable" and could be coupled with Unload (also a 15 sec cooldown) to fire into a crowd from range. Nevertheless, the true damage of the Pyro comes from being within 10 meters, so all those baddies who were playing the class like a range class really screwed us all over.

 

Second, nether one of you have stated why the Shield tree needs to be buffed for PvP. Are you looking for more damage? More survivability? More mobility? More easymode/less QQing? State your reason for your claim, otherwise, you just appear like crybabies.

Edited September 14, 2012 by DacRycar

[nDjiin]

I wish I knew more about the Shield Tech Tree, but I play a lot of classes and as such have only really used it in a hybrid DPS role. What I will say though is the other tank classes are better suited to PvP, due to the way in which damage can be mitigated (the 3 classes doing this in different ways). The ability to be holding a node and then stealth out and return to stop a capture can not be over looked either.

 

The nerf to the ST's DPS should have been handled differently with a restructuring of the tree, rather than an out and out nerf of the overall damage %'s to stop the use of certain hybrid builds.

[Infalliable]

. Though TD was a key to this wind-up, Incendiary Missile/Rail Shot were targeted as the key problems. While TD was on a 15-second cooldown, IM was "spammable" and could be coupled with Unload (also a 15 sec cooldown) to fire into a crowd from range.

 

I tihnk you were trying to get to this but...

 

Good luck spamming (IM) a 25 heat skill with low burst damage from range and being effective. Rail shot is also sort of useless from range as you can't reset the cooldown of it so it's only occasionally useful b/c of it's cooldown time.

 

You always had to move into melee (or near melee) range for optimal performance. It's just now you're going to be gimpy outside of melee.

Edited September 14, 2012 by Infalliable

[DacRycar]

I tihnk you were trying to get to this but...

 

Good luck spamming (IM) a 25 heat skill with low burst damage from range and being effective. Rail shot is also sort of useless from range as you can't reset the cooldown of it so it's only occasionally useful b/c of it's cooldown time.

 

You always had to move into melee (or near melee) range for optimal performance. It's just now you're going to be gimpy outside of melee.

 

EXACTLY! Spot on. Many of us understood this, but Force help me all the Vanguards and Powertechs I've seen spamming IM and Unload from range and never once moving into melee. I blame them for this mess.

 

Enter shameless plug: See my petition for Storm/Jet Charge as a base ability to resolve this.

[SneiK]

Yes, damn those people, who did next to no damage as a Pyro.

[FeralPug]

Uh, maybe I missed something but I have never seen a pyro spamming IM. How many IMs could you even get off before you were overheated?

 

Even if you could get a bunch of IM's off, weaving rapid shots in between the IM to cool things down, it's a super-low damaging ability (especially given its cost). I would imagine an extremely low final DPS number if a pyro actually played this way.

 

Have people really been doing this???

 

IM is just to set the conditions for a RS at 30 meters. Its damage is negligible as it is drawn out over such a long time.

[CBRGhostRider]

You are a melee class with a plethora of ranged abilities to sustain some damage while out of range/gap closing.

The only melee that comes close to doing 30% of their damage while OOR is the golden child of the devs, the watchman sent/

Shadows do zero damage @11m if infil, more if balance.

Operatives can do maybe 10%, more if fly-by is off CD.

Non-Watchman specced sents/mara's have their throw.

Juggs have saber throw, dots (if specced)

 

so once again, your doing 30% of your damage while I do nada. Yes i have sprint/charge to get back into melee range but then im consigned to doing less dps and less damage overall when I get there with more set up.You don't need a gap closer.

 

and i really had to LOL at stealth being a gap closer in pve.

 

I really have to ask, If your topping the meters (or coming bloody close) without a charge, why do you need it?

 

I rarely pve with my pyro, so my comments are pvp specific. And we absolutely must have a gap closer for pvp.

 

FYI: 2 of the most important attacks (TD AND IM) from my *plethora* of ranged abilities are being nerfed to 10 m.

 

As for your comparisons:

Assassins ALL 3 specs have sprint to close gaps, and also stealth.

Operatives have stealth to close gaps as well.

Juggs have charge to close gaps. Juggs can reset charge using push as well.

Maras have charge, force camo, predation.

We have a grapple on a 45 sec cd which does not work on full resolve or cc immune targets (and ops bosses for what it's worth). Furthermore, no pvp player opens with grapple, coz if you do then you are knocked back and then its over.

 

Ranged classes get roots/sprints and knockbacks (e.g. sorc sprint and knockback).

Melee classes get gap closers. (sprint/stealth/charge).

 

Can you seriously, with a straight face, claim that PTs will be ok having to run slowly (at combat speed) within 10m of any other class to engage them?

 

And really, the change requested isn't groundbreaking. IT EXISTS ALREADY for another tanking class i.e. the assassin. All 3 trees have sprint (and stealth) to close gaps, tank tree has pull which needs to be specced into. Is it so bad to request the same thing for PTs?

 

Swap jet charge and grapple. And just like that it will be balanced without making PTs OP with both grapple and charge. And the QQ regarding grapple-stun-burn in huttball will subside, since only tank specced PTs will be able to do it.

Edited September 15, 2012 by CBRGhostRider

[Teioh_White]

One thing would make me perfectly fine with these changes: make Jet charge the base line ability, and put grapple in the tank tree.

[Leovinus]

One thing would make me perfectly fine with these changes: make Jet charge the base line ability, and put grapple in the tank tree.

 

Especially considering grapple generates significant hate. It almost seems like they're switched from where they ought to be anyway.

[FeralPug]

 

Swap jet charge and grapple. And just like that it will be balanced without making PTs OP with both grapple and charge. And the QQ regarding grapple-stun-burn in huttball will subside, since only tank specced PTs will be able to do it.

 

Dear Devs,

 

Please don't swap grapple with jet charge. Please. The only real thing pyros bring to the table in HB is the ability to pull into fire pits. If you swap these skills, pyro will be even less desired in ranked teams than it will be in 1.4.

 

Thx

[Gyronamics]

Can you seriously, with a straight face, claim that PTs will be ok having to run slowly (at combat speed) within 10m of any other class to engage them?

 

Never used your default attack with a 70% chance to proc CGC to get a burn to use Railshot on someone before?

 

Still 30m on that.

 

IM always was a waste of resources in a busy fight anyway.

[Leovinus]

Dear Devs,

 

Please don't swap grapple with jet charge. Please. The only real thing pyros bring to the table in HB is the ability to pull into fire pits. If you swap these skills, pyro will be even less desired in ranked teams than it will be in 1.4.

 

Thx

 

So you'd prefer that pyros keep a skill with serious limitations, including near uselessness in PvE of any consequence, so you can have a cool thing that ticks people off in a single warzone?

[FeralPug]

So you'd prefer that pyros keep a skill with serious limitations, including near uselessness in PvE of any consequence, so you can have a cool thing that ticks people off in a single warzone?

 

Yup.

 

But you have it totally wrong.

 

Grapple/Force Pulls can mean the difference between a win and loss in Huttball. Against a good team, the only way to kill the primary ball carrier is in the firepits.

 

Have you played rated games against excellent teams? Swapping grapple with jet charge would kill pyro more than anything that is in 1.4. That and supporting control of midfield is all we bring to a Huttball match.

 

Additionally, pealing for healers would be near impossible. Currently pyros are one of the best pealers in the game. Take grapple away, and we're seriously gimped.

 

To make matters worse, if you swap jet charge with grapple you'd have to change the Advanced Prototype tree as one of the talents lowers the cooldown on grapple. This is one of the essential features of running AP. AP lacks the burst of pyro, and so you have to make the spec appealing via its utility.

 

Those who want to swap these skills have a total lack of understanding of class mechanics. I'm astounded actually. The players of this game want to kill it, I swear. Jet charge is one of the most overrated powertech abilities. Those who are arguing for a swap of grapple and jet charge are arguing for yet another nerf to the dps trees of the powertech class.

 

Stop. Just stop. Learn to play the game before you make these utterly absurd requests.

[Leovinus]

Yup.

 

But you have it totally wrong.

 

Grapple/Force Pulls can mean the difference between a win and loss in Huttball. Against a good team, the only way to kill the primary ball carrier is in the firepits.

 

Have you played rated games against excellent teams? Swapping grapple with jet charge would kill pyro more than anything that is in 1.4. That and supporting control of midfield is all we bring to a Huttball match.

 

Additionally, pealing for healers would be near impossible. Currently pyros are one of the best pealers in the game. Take grapple away, and we're seriously gimped.

 

To make matters worse, if you swap jet charge with grapple you'd have to change the Advanced Prototype tree as one of the talents lowers the cooldown on grapple. This is one of the essential features of running AP. AP lacks the burst of pyro, and so you have to make the spec appealing via its utility.

 

Those who want to swap these skills have a total lack of understanding of class mechanics. I'm astounded actually. The players of this game want to kill it, I swear. Jet charge is one of the most overrated powertech abilities. Those who are arguing for a swap of grapple and jet charge are arguing for yet another nerf to the dps trees of the powertech class.

 

Stop. Just stop. Learn to play the game before you make these utterly absurd requests.

 

And YOU are completely basing your "analysis" on PvP. I don't give 2 farts about how grapple affects PvP. What I do know is that the loss of range of these skills is going to be a serious detriment to our performance in PvE, and that if they go through with them, they really need to give us a way to close those gaps.

 

Grapple is very much a tanky skill, while jet charge is far more of a gap closer appropriate to all specs. And it would be equivalent to the way assassins work as well.

[mugen_dom]

The pull in the assasin tree is in the tank tree as it should be in the Powertech tree. You dont NEED grapple the target is rooted when u jetcharge to them...jetcharge to them at the firepit theyre rooted you walk away as the burn. Take ball run to goal. Simple. You want the grapple ability you would need to be a tank. You want railshot resets no grapple. Grapple is resolved based, its a taunt in PVE, all in all its a tank ability. We NEED jetcharge to close the gap, if you dont think so have fu being pyro with out it.

[FeralPug]

The pull in the assasin tree is in the tank tree as it should be in the Powertech tree. You dont NEED grapple the target is rooted when u jetcharge to them...jetcharge to them at the firepit theyre rooted you walk away as the burn. .

 

You will never, ever see a good player run over a fire pit in huttball in a ranked game.

[FeralPug]

And YOU are completely basing your "analysis" on PvP. I don't give 2 farts about how grapple affects PvP. What I do know is that the loss of range of these skills is going to be a serious detriment to our performance in PvE, and that if they go through with them, they really need to give us a way to close those gaps.

 

Grapple is very much a tanky skill, while jet charge is far more of a gap closer appropriate to all specs. And it would be equivalent to the way assassins work as well.

 

Here's an idea: play a real melee class like a marauder. Powertechs are not melee. We are 10m spec. 10m is so much more forgiving than the mara's range (which is why they have a leap).

 

Play concealment op if you want another idea of a class (that has NO gap closer) that needs actually melee range.

 

Pyro will be fine in 1.4. It will take adjustment, but if you've played some of the other classes you should have no trouble with this.

[Suryi]

Powertechs are not melee. We are 10m spec. 10m is so much more forgiving than the mara's range (which is why they have a leap).

 

 

A thousand times this. I'm amazed that FeralPug is quite possibly the only one that understands we're not melee. I do not think they will ever give us Jet Charge/Storm as baseline because of the fact that we're 10m range. In 10m you have more options of evading CC such as Warrior shouts/slows or KBs while still providing very good (the same as 1.3) DPS/Burst on the target. I mean it's not like in ranked you're alone trying to kill the focus target you'll have other people on them slowing them for 50% as opposed to your 30%.

 

And if you can't deal with being kited go AP lol

 

As for PvE I simply put don't understand how people say that this class will be useless with the changes. Atm in EC HM this change would slightly lower our DPS on the first and second bosses and I do mean slightly. If anything in 1.4 the change to 10m on TD will mean that 31 point Pyro builds will be useless so back to 8/5/28 builds which more then make up for the lack of TD. Slight decrease in uptime on bosses does not bloody mean the class is useless and needs a gap closer, not with 1.9k dps being easily sustainable on the boss (not per encounter)

 

Like FeralPug said: 1.4 patch is time to adapt

[nDjiin]

Here's an idea: play a real melee class like a marauder. Powertechs are not melee. We are 10m spec. 10m is so much more forgiving than the mara's range (which is why they have a leap).

 

Play concealment op if you want another idea of a class (that has NO gap closer) that needs actually melee range.

 

Pyro will be fine in 1.4. It will take adjustment, but if you've played some of the other classes you should have no trouble with this.

 

You going to say the same to me? I have 5 maxed out characters in a mix of BH & campaign (2 of which have full WH also), 1 is over 90 valor, 1 over 75 and 3 over 60. I have played a lot of different types of builds and roles.

The operative is quicker and can stealth - when used together they have a very nice way of getting onto combat.

 

You cannot seriously compare this to a powertech, slowly running towards a target whilst under fire from anyone nearby. The fact is the only option they have is to stun and run,but wait they can't even do that anymore. 10m electro dart will put a stop to that too.

 

So basically if grapple is on CD or will not work (due to resolve or cover) then PT's are dead in the water.

 

I can assure if this update is allowed to go ahead unaltered then the Powertech will be a dreadful class to play. It will take away its only real role in huttball (holding mid / nodes) as all it will take is a sniper / sorc to gun them down at range.

 

The only option a PT will have is to stay close to the group and be a support DPS - but in return they will need a lot of support themselves. You will be far, far better off taking another DPS class (especially the 2 stealth class) in a ranked WZ. Its role as a solo 'predator' will now be over and will now just be a drain on team resources.

[Jaigen]

You going to say the same to me? I have 5 maxed out characters in a mix of BH & campaign (2 of which have full WH also), 1 is over 90 valor, 1 over 75 and 3 over 60. I have played a lot of different types of builds and roles.

The operative is quicker and can stealth - when used together they have a very nice way of getting onto combat.

 

You cannot seriously compare this to a powertech, slowly running towards a target whilst under fire from anyone nearby. The fact is the only option they have is to stun and run,but wait they can't even do that anymore. 10m electro dart will put a stop to that too.

 

So basically if grapple is on CD or will not work (due to resolve or cover) then PT's are dead in the water.

 

I can assure if this update is allowed to go ahead unaltered then the Powertech will be a dreadful class to play. It will take away its only real role in huttball (holding mid / nodes) as all it will take is a sniper / sorc to gun them down at range.

 

The only option a PT will have is to stay close to the group and be a support DPS - but in return they will need a lot of support themselves. You will be far, far better off taking another DPS class (especially the 2 stealth class) in a ranked WZ. Its role as a solo 'predator' will now be over and will now just be a drain on team resources.

 

Your not allowd to be a solo predator. Your support dps and working as intended. and saying PT are a drain on resources is just laugable.

[FeralPug]

 

You cannot seriously compare this to a powertech, slowly running towards a target whilst under fire from anyone nearby. The fact is the only option they have is to stun and run,but wait they can't even do that anymore. 10m electro dart will put a stop to that too.

 

 

Exactly my point. PT is not melee. It will lose some range in 1.4, but will keep its viability as one of the nastiest bursters out there.

 

In contrast to mara and operative for example, we have a much more forgiving range. We don't need a gap closer. Never have, never will.

 

Grapple is not a gap closer per se anyway. It's for pealing, and using environmental objects to eliminate durable targets. With the new War Zone coming which from what I've read has a huge AOE explosion mechanic that you must escape, the ability to grapple people into it will be absolutely awesome.

Edited September 16, 2012 by FeralPug

[nDjiin]

Your not allowd to be a solo predator. Your support dps and working as intended. and saying PT are a drain on resources is just laugable.

 

Whats laughable is someone who obviously has no idea how the class works coming in here and trying to tell us we have it wrong.

[RjuDju]

I just hate that I had to make this class to deal with Op marauders 4 months ago. Yet they continue getting buffs and now i wont be able to kite them along with thinking how a sniper can now completely shut down a PT...cant attack until within 10 meters, i will be leg shotted first, then once in 10 meters knocked back and rooted again, cant close... cant attack.

[mugen_dom]

I just hate that I had to make this class to deal with Op marauders 4 months ago. Yet they continue getting buffs and now i wont be able to kite them along with thinking how a sniper can now completely shut down a PT...cant attack until within 10 meters, i will be leg shotted first, then once in 10 meters knocked back and rooted again, cant close... cant attack.

 

We'll be target practice...no cleanse to get rid of the root. No imortality like the Mara....may as well roll another class. The Merc/Commando still wont be able to beat a Mara.

[nDjiin]

As it stands now, I will stop playing altogether if the nerf goes ahead unchanged - the obvious reasons being that my main toon will be uncompetitive in PvP and will bring down the DPS of the raid in PvE. But the main reason is this : If BW can go ahead and make such a dumb change to a class and then go ahead and let it go live, then what else are they capable of doing to the game? I no longer think the chance of having 10 months worth of work ruined is worth the risk. And believe me I am really sorry to have to say this.