1.4 Nerfing classes for PVP reasons, impacts PVE.../sigh

[ivanhedgehog]

I agree with this, on any of my melee chars I dislike having my targets knocked back out of my range by my team. In pve on my tanks, I want to control the fight and peeling, not have mobs flying thru the air every which way.

 

I would prefer the change to be a front and back cone but can work with frontal cone.

 

If you are a good tank you will be controlling agro and there wont be any mobs attacking the healer to be knocked back.

[ivanhedgehog]

deleted Edited September 11, 2012 by ivanhedgehog

[OrionSol]

did they nerf all the other classes push backs as well?

[Timias]

did they nerf all the other classes push backs as well?

 

Of course not. If they did, the people playing classes that mattered would start yelling, and they might have to listen.

 

Time we started to face some cold hard truths. The Sorcerer and the Sage didn't turn out to be what we expected, and what they wanted. So they are taking steps to retire our class because no one wants to play it. Nerf it to the ground enough, and their precious secret metrics will prove that no one wants to play a Sorcerer except healers. And just like the under-populated servers, they'll lock the class as an unavailable DPS Class, then delete it all together.

[Khevar]

Of course not. If they did, the people playing classes that mattered would start yelling, and they might have to listen.

 

Time we started to face some cold hard truths. The Sorcerer and the Sage didn't turn out to be what we expected, and what they wanted. So they are taking steps to retire our class because no one wants to play it. Nerf it to the ground enough, and their precious secret metrics will prove that no one wants to play a Sorcerer except healers. And just like the under-populated servers, they'll lock the class as an unavailable DPS Class, then delete it all together.

Bitter much?

 

Of my 8 alts, my Sage and my Sorcerer are still my favorite classes to play, both leveling and end-game ops. Your hyperbole isn't helping anything.

[Timias]

Bitter much?

 

Of my 8 alts, my Sage and my Sorcerer are still my favorite classes to play, both leveling and end-game ops. Your hyperbole isn't helping anything.

 

As a matter of fact I am. I was invited to Beta, only to be informed "we don't want your suggestions, just find the bugs" ... which still exist by the way. Force Flagging someone for PvP on a PvE Server is one I reported that still exists.

 

My "hyperbole" isn't helping? I know from past experience BioWare does not, and will not listen to it's community on changes they are going to make to characters in the game.

 

I'm glad you like your Sage and your Sorcerer, are they DPS or Heals? Hyperbole doesn't help, neither does defending a company who has demonstatably ignored the input from it's users.

 

And by the way, it wasn't hyperbole, it is a serious comment on my thoughts of BioWare's true intent for the Sorcerer and the Sage. We'll be healers, or nothing.

Edited September 11, 2012 by Timias

[Master-Nala]

While it's true that some changes may be motivated by design requirements in one gameplay mode, we never make a change without confidence that it's fun and appropriate in all gameplay modes. We think it's natural for players to think of the game as two different sub-games and to dislike changes made for a sub-game they don't participate in, but that mindset couldn't be further from the case for us. We only ever look at the game as a complete package, and it's always our goal to deliver one cohesive and coherent gameplay experience. If, during our playtesting, we find that one experience suffers at the cost of another, we revisit our design goals and our options and reassess our approach.

 

You might wonder why that is a natural inclination. It could be because the two play styles are significantly different. You are acknowledging here that you are nerfing the class solely because of PvP concerns.

 

Overload and Force Wave, for example, now reach 15 meters in front of you. This is almost twice the previous range. The extra reach is quite a bit of fun and quite useful all around.

 

No it's not.

 

Similarly, although stuns that now have a 10-meter range are irrefutably worse, we've taken measures to correct for this loss by adding a few new tools and skills to the affected classes.

 

My balance Sage gets the heal. That's it. I don't need the heal, but I very much do need the longer range stun. This is a significant nerf, for which there is inadequate compensation. That the change is to satisfy a PvP concern is maddening.

 

From our internal playtesting and feedback, we're confident that the new experience is more fun. Ultimately, we want you guys to be able to tell us what is and isn't fun, so we're looking forward to players actually testing these changes in-game on the PTS and giving us good, constructive feedback that is based on playing with the changes.

 

We can't because, you've given us no way to actually test the changes. This is the most disappointing update, I've seen so far. The 1.2 nerfs were tough to take, but those changes were understandable. Here, you've admitted that my character is being made worse for effectively no reason.

[uziforyou]

Doesn't even address the major issue in PvP. Thats Operative stealthing, throwing stunlock CC forever, taking off most of the persons health, if not all.

 

GS/Sniper has no defence against a stealther stunlocking then vibroknifing to death, and there is just SO many of them. Most GS/Snipers become the no.1 target for all stealthers in every match...its just to much.

 

The OP can rest his case about PvP'ers always, always finding things to complain about. As soon as this got fixed it would be on to something else. It's the true never ending story.

[BaronV]

As a matter of fact I am. I was invited to Beta, only to be informed "we don't want your suggestions, just find the bugs" ... which still exist by the way. Force Flagging someone for PvP on a PvE Server is one I reported that still exists.

 

My "hyperbole" isn't helping? I know from past experience BioWare does not, and will not listen to it's community on changes they are going to make to characters in the game.

 

I'm glad you like your Sage and your Sorcerer, are they DPS or Heals? Hyperbole doesn't help, neither does defending a company who has demonstatably ignored the input from it's users.

 

And by the way, it wasn't hyperbole, it is a serious comment on my thoughts of BioWare's true intent for the Sorcerer and the Sage. We'll be healers, or nothing.

 

Now you have me worried that what you're saying could be true:(

 

I absolutely LOVE my sorc but the way things are going you might be right. If that happens im unsubbing on the spot and will NOT spend a single penny on f2p. Id rather drain as much of bioware's finances as possible by freeloading but not buying anything from the cash-shop.

 

Then once im done playing all 8 class quests I'll just quit the game and boycott EVERY game that has any SWTOR game dev involvement at all.

 

Hope that wont be the case...

Edited September 11, 2012 by BaronV

[BaronV]

I just thought it is worth posting these two comments made on the sticky by Sith Sorc PvPers:

 

Yes, I do in fact. Valor rank 100. I cancelled my subscription as a result of these changes. I am just pointing out the "buff" a sage and sorc got in exchange for another round of nerfs. I went from "tolerated" in a RWZ group to "never ever will your class be invited again in our RWZ group" with this patch. Hence the cancelled sub.

 

and a reply by someone else

 

As far as sorc DPS goes... yeah. They made some changes to the lightning tree, but from a heals standpoint, everytime I see one of you guys, I have to make an unfortunate decision about whether or not you're worth it. If I heal you up, then some crazy melee spec comes around the corner right after that... did I waste my heals on you? I'd really rather not have to answer that. I don't really want to be the guy deciding who on our team has to live in the spawn point the entire match.

 

So you see Even the PvP Players hate these changes!!

 

WHY WHY WHY BIOWARE ARE YOU SO STUBBORN?!

Edited September 11, 2012 by BaronV

[Khevar]

... stuff ...

Just so you know, I'm not trying to defend BW.

 

The only thing I felt was hyperbole was describing malice on the part of the developers. I'm still in the camp that believes that the issues can get fixed. Now, you've been around a lot longer than I have so I do understand your frustration.

 

I leveled a dps Sage and had a great time. My guild needed a healer so I respecced, but missed it so I rolled a Sorcerer dps. Sometimes I'll rescpec my Sage to dps to run LI or EC just for fun.

 

That said, I know there are issues with the class. And since I haven't yet lost all hope, I'm of the opinion that posts that are very angry end up just being noise and don't help.

Edited September 11, 2012 by Khevar

[Cakellene]

WHY WHY WHY BIOWARE ARE YOU SO STUBBORN?

 

Pride

[Timias]

Just so you know, I'm not trying to defend BW.

 

The only thing I felt was hyperbole was describing malice on the part of the developers. I'm still in the camp that believes that the issues can get fixed. Now, you've been around a lot longer than I have so I do understand your frustration.

 

I leveled a dps Sage and had a great time. My guild needed a healer so I respecced, but missed it so I rolled a Sorcerer dps. Sometimes I'll rescpec my Sage to dps to run LI or EC just for fun.

 

That said, I know there are issues with the class. And since I haven't yet lost all hope, I'm of the opinion that posts that are very angry end up just being noise and don't help.

 

It doen't help at the moment, you're correct in that. Hopefully, someday, the decision making people at BioWare and Electronic Arts will find that they should have been listening to us since Beta. As for intentional malice on the part of the Developers. I believe they are intentionally nerfing the DPS Sorcerer into the ground so only 1% of the population will play one. Case in point:

 

I once replaced a DPS Sorcerer in Tionese / Columi Gear with a Healing Spec'd Mercenary in Level 43 to 50 blue and green gear. And my Mercenary out DPS'd the Sorcerer, and took down the solo Boss after the puzzle faster than my Sorcerer did. (Pre 1.3) The group asked me to stick around with my Mercenary, my Main Raid group needed a tank so I leveled a Juggernaut. Now my Sorcerer sit's crafting, and occationally running dailies)

 

But I digress, and let's not de-rail the thread.

[HarleysRule]

Hyperbole doesn't help, neither does defending a company who has demonstatably ignored the input from it's users.

 

It's hyperbole because any sane person knows they're not going to delete the frickin class.

 

I hate the changes too, but get a grip. You're not helping with such ridiculous statements.

[Timias]

It's hyperbole because any sane person knows they're not going to delete the frickin class.

 

I hate the changes too, but get a grip. You're not helping with such ridiculous statements.

 

It's only Hyperbole if I am intentionally exaggerating, I'm not. I believe that is their intent. Eliminate Sorcerer DPS. After all, why invest a Developers time in adjusting a class that only a hand full of people actually play, when their time can be spent working on other more important projects.

[WaywardOne]

It's only Hyperbole if I am intentionally exaggerating, I'm not. I believe that is their intent. Eliminate Sorcerer DPS. After all, why invest a Developers time in adjusting a class that only a hand full of people actually play, when their time can be spent working on other more important projects.

 

Are you seriously suggesting that there are only a few sorcs/sages left out there?

[Timias]

Are you seriously suggesting that there are only a few sorcs/sages left out there?

 

No, I'm suggesting that over time, and many more nerfs yet to head our way, attrition will take it's toll. How many more changes to core abilities, and reduction of ranges can the Sorcerer endure before it becomes totally unplayable? Did Bounty Hunters and Agents get their knockback changed from a 360 degree effect. to a 120 degree cone? Bounty Hunters got their electrodart reduced in range, but Snipers can still hit from 35 meters, and it doesn't appear that Flashbang had it's range reduced either.

 

Keep buffing 1 or two classes, while picking away slowly at 1 class, will cause people to give up playing them. And if, like the locked servers, no one is on them, why waste time trying to fix them? My belief isn't that killing the class is happening tomorrow, it's simply going to slowly get nerfed to the point no one can play them any more in end-game content. All they need do, if figure out how to make 3 healing trees, and Sorcerers will be healers, and nothing more.

[WaywardOne]

No, I'm suggesting that over time, and many more nerfs yet to head our way, attrition will take it's toll. How many more changes to core abilities, and reduction of ranges can the Sorcerer endure before it becomes totally unplayable? Did Bounty Hunters and Agents get their knockback changed from a 360 degree effect. to a 120 degree cone? Bounty Hunters got their electrodart reduced in range, but Snipers can still hit from 35 meters, and it doesn't appear that Flashbang had it's range reduced either.

 

Keep buffing 1 or two classes, while picking away slowly at 1 class, will cause people to give up playing them. And if, like the locked servers, no one is on them, why waste time trying to fix them? My belief isn't that killing the class is happening tomorrow, it's simply going to slowly get nerfed to the point no one can play them any more in end-game content. All they need do, if figure out how to make 3 healing trees, and Sorcerers will be healers, and nothing more.

 

Ok ok - the last several times I checked on Fatman and Jung Ma sorcs & sages were either the #1 or #2 most played class. There's A LOT of wiggle room in there before they hit Operative levels. People don't play ops because they suck at pvp? Or are they the best 1v1 class? I keep forgetting which. But by all means, resume your hyper-over-reactive whining.

[Roalmo]

Ok ok - the last several times I checked on Fatman and Jung Ma sorcs & sages were either the #1 or #2 most played class. There's A LOT of wiggle room in there before they hit Operative levels. People don't play ops because they suck at pvp? Or are they the best 1v1 class? I keep forgetting which. But by all means, resume your hyper-over-reactive whining.

 

Strange, peeps keep arguing that the "changes" don't hurt PvP play of the nerfed toons. Thereby validating OPs position. Weird.

[WaywardOne]

Strange, peeps keep arguing that the "changes" don't hurt PvP play of the nerfed toons. Thereby validating OPs position. Weird.

 

I've heard lots of complaints by pvpers about the overload change in particular. In my experience from many games, classes that are good at pvp are also good at pve. People like to separate them but in terms of relative class performance they really aren't that different (except that midcombat stealth is more useful in pvp). I think there's misperceptions in that arena because classes that tend to underperform in pvp but have done "ok" in pve aren't being compared seriously with the better classes. Sages saying they can't do the solo content or will contribute less to raids/instances because of these changes are just being silly; I'm sure their relative dmg/heals will stay the same (if not go up) as will their personal survivability.

 

How many sages/sorcs on non-PVP servers compared to other classes?

[LadyRaven]

Did Bounty Hunters and Agents get their knockback changed from a 360 degree effect. to a 120 degree cone?

 

Did you read all of it?

 

•Afterburners/Concussive Force: Rocket Punch/Stockstrike now immobilizes the target for 4 seconds instead of knocking it back.

 

I liked my KB thank you very much. This is not a good change.

 

Seperate PvP and PvE mechanics Dev's...yesterday would be good thanks.

[Timias]

Did you read all of it?

 

•Afterburners/Concussive Force: Rocket Punch/Stockstrike now immobilizes the target for 4 seconds instead of knocking it back.

 

I liked my KB thank you very much. This is not a good change.

 

Seperate PvP and PvE mechanics Dev's...yesterday would be good thanks.

I wasn't referring to Rocket Punch, I was referring to Jet Boost, which is a 360 degree knockback. As for the Rocket Punch, I don't use Afterburners for my Rocket Punch. But my point still stands ... and by your response, you agree with me.

[BaronV]

This thread is gradually slipping in rankings on the forum table.

 

We need to make as much noise as possible and keep this thread alive with reasoned opposition if we want to have even a glimmer of hope of undoing these ridiculous changes! Thats how the PvP guys did it! (granted the changes weren't as they had hoped...)

[OrionSol]

This thread is gradually slipping in rankings on the forum table.

 

We need to make as much noise as possible and keep this thread alive with reasoned opposition if we want to have even a glimmer of hope of undoing these ridiculous changes! Thats how the PvP guys did it! (granted the changes weren't as they had hoped...)

 

The buffs they are granting, like super quick regen timer on force run, will probably be game breaking in pvp... especially being that they nerfed the range stun

[BaronV]

The buffs they are granting, like super quick regen timer on force run, will probably be game breaking in pvp... especially being that they nerfed the range stun

 

And that is something that all those people who dont play this class yet have the gall to berate us for kicking up a storm dont get.

 

Most of us dont want of these changes. Just leave sorcs alone please.

Edited September 12, 2012 by BaronV