Will anything actually retain customers?

[LordArtemis]

Everyone knows when a games lose the high end players the game is dead shortly after.

 

The high end are on MMO or some other thing to point out the edgy parts of the game, lose that and boring is the name.

 

I don't think everyone knows that. Though the most loyal players, hardcore players tend to be the minority of the playerbase. Casual players make up the vast majority of almost any modern MMO.

 

If (just my opinion) they continue to listen to hardcore players and ignore their casual base I believe it will be at their continued peril.

[Andryah]

I don't think everyone knows that. Though the most loyal players, hardcore players tend to be the minority of the playerbase. Casual players make up the vast majority of almost any modern MMO.

 

If (just my opinion) they continue to listen to hardcore players and ignore their casual base I believe it will be at their continued peril.

 

I agree.

 

The small number of "loyal hardcore" raiders in the MMO community over rate themselves IMO. Particularly in the context of an MMO that was clearly made to cater to a broader more casual player base that loves SW IP.

[krystianswtor]

nothing will retain me anymore. this game is 'broken'

[Scritchy]

If (just my opinion) they continue to listen to hardcore players and ignore their casual base I believe it will be at their continued peril.

and

The small number of "loyal hardcore" raiders in the MMO community over rate themselves IMO. Particularly in the context of an MMO that was clearly made to cater to a broader more casual player base that loves SW IP.

There has been one new operation since the game launched. I don't think you can make a case for them listening to hardcore players.

 

Also, that casual player base that loves SW IP? Somewhere around a million of them stopped playing this game. Well, between 1.2M and 700k of them anyway.

 

The problem is, this game isn't catering to anybody. It is just taking people's money, making huge promises, and then not even trying to fulfill them.

Edited September 9, 2012 by Scritchy

[Hessen]

Yeah it wouldn't take much, but we've been saying thart since launch, and whilst they progressed stuff like UI greatly other stuff just hasn't been on the adgenda.

 

It's like seeing a child at school who could do really well if they tried, but they just don't want to.

 

Wasted potential is just

[LordArtemis]

and

 

There has been one new operation since the game launched. I don't think you can make a case for them listening to hardcore players.

 

Also, that casual player base that loves SW IP? Somewhere around a million of them stopped playing this game. Well, between 1.2M and 700k of them anyway.

 

The problem is, this game isn't catering to anybody. It is just taking people's money, making huge promises, and then not even trying to fulfill them.

 

Well...I feel that might be a narrow case example used to prove your point. That's not saying you can't be right, but I tend to think the evidence stands in what was done prior to and after launch. That includes all changes and additions, most of which (at least to me) were not asked for or desired by the casual community.

 

It is very difficult, IMO, for this game to satiate hardcore players with themepark content due to the VO design and it's development cost. I proposed a small solution for this, but I do think that they have to find some way to provide end game content that does not match the current VO requirement, or at least does so using mostly current assets.

 

But IMO they most definitely have to add repeatable "sandboxy" content for casual players, customization and the like. Casuals need things to do, endgame is rarely, in my experience, one of those things that holds casual players.

 

There has been little to no development on that end.

[Scritchy]

But IMO they most definitely have to add repeatable "sandboxy" content for casual players, customization and the like. Casuals need things to do, endgame is rarely, in my experience, one of those things that holds casual players.

 

There has been little to no development on that end.

There is no endgame for anybody, and that is one of the problems. The most difficult part of the operations were the bugs, so that leaves hardcore raiders out. You can only do the dailies or flashpoints so many times before you start to drool on yourself, and PVP is stupidly repetitive in this game, with ever fight the same because everybody of each class has to spec the same way to be viable which means fights against the same classes are always the same.

 

That leaves no endgame for anybody, which is one of the problems. Then they claim that the game isn't suppose to have an endgame and everybody is suppose to roll alts. The problem with that is that the story quests might be different, but then EVERYTHING else to get to those story quests are exactly the same. So it isn't targeted at casual folks either.

 

Who is it targeted at and have they done anything at all to improve the game for their targeted demographic?

[CalonLan]

The bottom line is that if folks don't feel they are getting value for their $15 a month they will cancel their sub.

If the sub was $7.50 maybe folks would feel that they were getting better value?

[Metalmac]

There is no endgame for anybody, and that is one of the problems. The most difficult part of the operations were the bugs, so that leaves hardcore raiders out. You can only do the dailies or flashpoints so many times before you start to drool on yourself, and PVP is stupidly repetitive in this game, with ever fight the same because everybody of each class has to spec the same way to be viable which means fights against the same classes are always the same.

 

That leaves no endgame for anybody, which is one of the problems. Then they claim that the game isn't suppose to have an endgame and everybody is suppose to roll alts. The problem with that is that the story quests might be different, but then EVERYTHING else to get to those story quests are exactly the same. So it isn't targeted at casual folks either.

 

Who is it targeted at and have they done anything at all to improve the game for their targeted demographic?

 

All very true.

I would add that the Dailies are the same on 3 other Alts for me so after the second round with my Alt I am already on Ilum or Belsavis and bored out of my mind tired of the same ol same ol.

 

BioWare wants me to do Dailies with 4 Characters on 3 planets every day including Hard Mode Flash Points.

I can do this in 10 hours and by the third Alt I am sick of playing, but push through till done.

 

Also I see less and less people playing the game, numbers are going down and this game is dying.

[Scritchy]

Also I see less and less people playing the game, numbers are going down and this game is dying.

Chalk it up to mismanagement, same thing that killed WAR.

 

Yes, games can still actually retain paying customers. It just requires the game to not suck, the devs to be very reactive to problems and proactive against causing problems, and management that aren't complete fracking imbeciles.

[Styxx]

I agree.

 

The small number of "loyal hardcore" raiders in the MMO community over rate themselves IMO. Particularly in the context of an MMO that was clearly made to cater to a broader more casual player base that loves SW IP.

 

Oh yes. But they are gamers, first and foremost, so you must make a game . And a pop-up picture MMO ala Heavy Rain won`t cut it. So you have to follow the "classic" route. And "raid or die" games are not precisely good for casual players, which, I think, was the first mistake.

 

The world is coming to an end.. I agreed with you ...

[Hessen]

All very true.

I would add that the Dailies are the same on 3 other Alts for me so after the second round with my Alt I am already on Ilum or Belsavis and bored out of my mind tired of the same ol same ol.

 

BioWare wants me to do Dailies with 4 Characters on 3 planets every day including Hard Mode Flash Points.

I can do this in 10 hours and by the third Alt I am sick of playing, but push through till done.

 

Also I see less and less people playing the game, numbers are going down and this game is dying.

 

Wait, you're playing the game 10 hours a day and are wondering why the content is repetitive?

[Scritchy]

Wait, you're playing the game 10 hours a day and are wondering why the content is repetitive?

We haven't had a content update in what, 5 months? A one-eyed, one-armed, drunken monkey could be playing the game a couple hours every weekend and figure out it is repetitive.

[Moaky]

We haven't had a content update in what, 5 months? A one-eyed, one-armed, drunken monkey could be playing the game a couple hours every weekend and figure out it is repetitive.

 

I thought the one eyed and one armed thingy was a flying purple people eater?

[LordArtemis]

Oh yes. But they are gamers, first and foremost, so you must make a game . And a pop-up picture MMO ala Heavy Rain won`t cut it. So you have to follow the "classic" route. And "raid or die" games are not precisely good for casual players, which, I think, was the first mistake.

 

The world is coming to an end.. I agreed with you ...

 

I had a way to take care of hardcore gamers. The Tomb of Lords. I talked about it in Beta.

 

The idea is to have a heroic instance that changes almost every time you enter it. First, just to get there you have to hijack an enemy ship. This takes an entire group, and each member has to do something different on the ship. Unfortunately no matter what you do you will die. The idea is to last as long as you can.

 

When you respawn your prisoners on board the enemy ship you tried to hijack. You break out, you have to liberate your gear (fight unarmed and ungeared, grabbing things to use along the way), and once you have your original gear you then have 4 tasks to escape. You have to split up because all 4 have to be done at the same time for it to work. One group takes the bridge, next assaults security to lower the force fields, next group takes the shuttle bay, last group targets the engine room.

 

When all four targets are down, all players rush to the shuttle bay. The ship is crashing, you have 5 minutes to make it to the bay, get on the ship, and escape before it crashes.

 

But the shuttle is damaged, so you crash land and have to fight your way on foot. That means fighting against and avoiding large groups of troops, mechanized vehicles, etc.

 

You finally reach the tomb. When you go inside, each section has 4 different areas, 8 sections. Every time you get one area, one section, and the mobs change. Sometimes you fight a single high level mob, other times you fight trash or groups of high level mobs. Sometimes its as simple as a jumping and moving puzzle with traps.

 

Three scenarios for combat if that is what you draw....survive until help arrives, seek and destroy and negotiate to survive.

 

This way this heroic would change to a new run almost every time you ran it. The mobs would change, scenarios change, etc. This is how end game should have been done.

 

I also had similar heroic runs for the Jedi Council and Sith Order.

Edited September 10, 2012 by LordArtemis

[Scritchy]

I had a way to take care of hardcore gamers. The Tomb of Lords. I talked about it in Beta.

 

The idea is to have a heroic instance that changes almost every time you enter it. First, just to get there you have to hijack an enemy ship. This takes an entire group, and each member has to do something different on the ship.

What you just described in your post is more content than we have at 50, even with the updates since launch.

[krystianswtor]

I had a way to take care of hardcore gamers. The Tomb of Lords. I talked about it in Beta.

 

The idea is to have a heroic instance that changes almost every time you enter it. First, just to get there you have to hijack an enemy ship. This takes an entire group, and each member has to do something different on the ship. Unfortunately no matter what you do you will die. The idea is to last as long as you can.

 

When you respawn your prisoners on board the enemy ship you tried to hijack. You break out, you have to liberate your gear (fight unarmed and ungeared, grabbing things to use along the way), and once you have your original gear you then have 4 tasks to escape. You have to split up because all 4 have to be done at the same time for it to work. One group takes the bridge, next assaults security to lower the force fields, next group takes the shuttle bay, last group targets the engine room.

 

When all four targets are down, all players rush to the shuttle bay. The ship is crashing, you have 5 minutes to make it to the bay, get on the ship, and escape before it crashes.

 

But the shuttle is damaged, so you crash land and have to fight your way on foot. That means fighting against and avoiding large groups of troops, mechanized vehicles, etc.

 

You finally reach the tomb. When you go inside, each section has 4 different areas, 8 sections. Every time you get one area, one section, and the mobs change. Sometimes you fight a single high level mob, other times you fight trash or groups of high level mobs. Sometimes its as simple as a jumping and moving puzzle with traps.

 

Three scenarios for combat if that is what you draw....survive until help arrives, seek and destroy and negotiate to survive.

 

This way this heroic would change to a new run almost every time you ran it. The mobs would change, scenarios change, etc. This is how end game should have been done.

 

I also had similar heroic runs for the Jedi Council and Sith Order.

 

yeah its how it should have been done , too bad it isnt and probably wont

[LordArtemis]

What you just described in your post is more content than we have at 50, even with the updates since launch.

 

The idea was that this one heroic for end game would provide replayable content for a LONG time. Since there are so many ways to do it, and it changes so much as you run it it would take quite a while for you to get bored with it.

 

It also gets away from the "kill one boss" mentality...although some scenarios give you this as your test, most are multiple mob battles, some that you will not win on your own. In some of them its all trash, but a ridiculous amount of trash for pure carnage.

Edited September 10, 2012 by LordArtemis

[Scritchy]

The idea was that this one heroic for end game would provide replayable content for a LONG time. Since there are so many ways to do it, and it changes so much as you run it it would take quite a while for you to get bored with it.

Oh, I understand and think it would be awesome (which is why I like the exploration modes in the GW2 dungeons, there are 4 or 5 different layouts for each one), but the ineptness of the current management and dev teams could never figure it out, which is why the game is in the situation it is in.

It also gets away from the "kill one boss" mentality...although some scenarios give you this as your test, most are multiple mob battles, some that you will not win on your own. In some of them its all trash, but a ridiculous amount of trash for pure carnage.

I don't know, I kind of liked that about EQ2 when it first launched. There were like 10 different raids, but each was a small zone with some trash and then a boss (each with unique abilities so it wasn't repetitive). That way between raids you could swap out folks that had to leave for ones that just showed up. It was a great way to get everybody involved and we were able to schedule the raids around life instead of the other way around.

Edited September 10, 2012 by Scritchy

[LordArtemis]

Oh, I understand and think it would be awesome (which is why I like the exploration modes in the GW2 dungeons, there are 4 or 5 different layouts for each one), but the ineptness of the current management and dev teams could never figure it out, which is why the game is in the situation it is in.

 

I don't know, I kind of liked that about EQ2 when it first launched. There were like 10 different raids, but each was a small zone with some trash and then a boss (each with unique abilities so it wasn't repetitive). That way between raids you could swap out folks that had to leave for ones that just showed up. It was a great way to get everybody involved and we were able to schedule the raids around life instead of the other way around.

 

I would say that on some occasions it is good to know what to expect...and one could say that is what flashpoints and heroics as you level are for, especially if they have nightmare modes that scale to your level.

 

But I really feel that end game raids should NOT be practiced runs, instead challenging you each and every time you run it. You have dailies if you want more casual content, but the end game heroics (I would call them Epics) would be so random it would be next to impossible to be ready for any scenario. You would have to think on your feet and work with it as you went...you would repeat scenarios by chance, but that would not be common for quite some time.

 

it is just a way to provide fresh content from the same raid for hardcore players...makes it truly repeatable and engaging to keep players busy for quite a while.

Edited September 10, 2012 by LordArtemis

[Scritchy]

But I really feel that end game raids should NOT be practiced runs, instead challenging you each and every time you run it. You have dailies if you want more casual content, but the end game heroics (I would call them Epics) would be so random it would be next to impossible to be ready for any scenario. You would have to think on your feet and work with it as you went...you would repeat scenarios by chance, but that would not be common for quite some time.

There have been boss mobs in the past that were random in which version you got. Each version of the mob had a different set of abilities, so it did require some dynamic thinking and action on part of the raid force. There aren't nearly enough of that kind of mechanic in the genre though. Please, ANYTHING would be more entertaining than facing the same mob week after week and the only "challenge" being a silly enrage timer.

[Mogsey]

I came back to Swtor after 3 weeks in GW2 (and a quick dabble on WoW) and was horrified just how clunky this game really is.

 

Combat felt awful and the graphics were very subpar to GW2 and ran like crap.

 

Such a shame.

[turjake]

I came back to Swtor after 3 weeks in GW2 (and a quick dabble on WoW) and was horrified just how clunky this game really is.

 

Combat felt awful and the graphics were very subpar to GW2 and ran like crap.

 

Such a shame.

 

Did someone force you to come back?

[DarthTHC]

Did someone force you to come back?

 

That's really the best you have after someone shares a recent, direct comparison with 2 other games?

[turjake]

That's really the best you have after someone shares a recent, direct comparison with 2 other games?

 

No, but I wasted about equal amount of my effort to my answer as he did for his comparison. I also have heard a lot better direct comparisons of the 3 games. I could do one with wow myself if I wanted but I am too lazy.

Edited September 10, 2012 by turjake