Let's discuss the latest 1.4 commando changes !

[DashaAdair]

Since we are on the subject of keeping the enemy at arms length I think the Gunslinger and Commando teams need to put their cubicles together.

 

"Flash Bang and Flash Grenade still have a 30-meter range and are exceptions to this philosophy, as they provide essential gameplay for the Sniper and Gunslinger."

 

If this is adequate justification for keeping flashbang, an AoE stun, I don't see any reason to change Cryo Grenade. It's just as essential to keep the enemy at arms length for a commando as it is a gunslinger. What's essential for gunslingers is just as essential for commandos.

 

We are stationary firers too, we just don't have the cover mechanic to clearly signify it.

[Jherad]

Two things to clear up -

 

First, I'm not sure where people are getting this idea from that stockstrike is geting a stun... It isn't. It's a ROOT. This means that the good ole meleer you just hit will still continue to smack you in the back with his glowsticks as you slooowly try to run away whilst snared. He'll also now be able to use ravage/masterstrike with near impunity on us (interrupts don't work on it - knockback did). You thought you had it rough with marauders or juggernauts before? Ho ho ho. Just you wait.

 

Second, this idea that 'don't worry, I'm sure the REAL patch notes will be much better!' is just lolworthy. The feedback thread was just depressing as far as gunnery was concerned, and I'm sure if BW had anything sensible figured out to help, they wouldn't keep it a secret. Right now is your chance to ask for improvements. Of course the fact that despite all the feedback, they've decided to nerf, not buff gunnery, strongly suggests we're screwed.

 

\When the patch comes, it is too late, and we'll be waiting another few months for scraps from the powertech table.

Edited September 5, 2012 by Jherad

[Dodgefella]

getting rid of concussive round (the knockback) makes no sense to me...I found it the only real way to get snipers out of their little sheild so the rest of my team could pounce on em with force leap with it being gone i wont be able to use it to push healers off of a node in alderan or push a bunch away in huttball...seems like this game is now even more imp based. sorcs and counslars have the force push thats not getting removed..snipers have it also ALONG with a root knights and juggernauts also have a force push to get you away I do not like the change at all I dont want a root that keeps melee near me so they can continue to bet the snot of of me the point of a knockback is just that...to knock them back from you to give you some breathing room

[Kavu]

Read :

 

http://www.swtor.com/blog/developer-update-class-changes-and-balance-game-update-1.4

 

Short Version:

 

Mercenaries and Commandos:

 

• Mercenaries and Commandos now have a 30-meter interrupt, Disabling Shot. This ability interrupts the target's current action and prevents that ability from being used for the next 4 seconds. This ability can be trained at level 18.
  
• Afterburners/Concussive Force: Rocket Punch/Stockstrike now immobilizes the target for 4 seconds instead of knocking it back. Damage caused after 2 seconds ends the effect. The knockback previously caused by this skill generated enough Resolve that it was actually detrimental to the Mercenary/Commando’s ability to further escape the attacker.
  
• Tracer Lock/Charged Barrel: Now each stack additionally reduces the activation time of your next Healing Scan/Advanced Medical Probe by 20% per stack.
  
• Kolto Residue: Now additionally snares enemies struck by your Kolto Missile/Kolto Bomb by 50% for 3 seconds.
  
• New Bodyguard/Combat Medic skill, Peacekeeper/Frontline Medic: While protected by your own Kolto Shell/Trauma Probe, firing Rapid Shots/Hammer Shot at an enemy triggers your Kolto Shell/Trauma Probe to heal you on a separate 3-second rate limit.
  

 

... Discuss !!!

I would have much preferred a chain heal as opposed to a self heal but thats just an example of the PvP crowd being catered to and not the PvE.

[PyRo_X]

If this is adequate justification for keeping flashbang, an AoE stun, I don't see any reason to change Cryo Grenade. It's just as essential to keep the enemy at arms length for a commando as it is a gunslinger. What's essential for gunslingers is just as essential for commandos.

 

Flashbang is a mez, which breaks instantly upon taking damage; not a stun, which has no such condition.

 

And unless the targets are well clumped together for any number of other AOEs, odds are the grenade often won't hit the maximum "5 targets within 5 meters (of the impact area)" when thrown from a range of 30 meters.

[Jherad]

Flashbang is awesome for places with big bottlenecks like voidstar. Virtually guaranteed to hit all 5.

[Luceon]

getting rid of concussive round (the knockback) makes no sense to me...I found it the only real way to get snipers out of their little sheild so the rest of my team could pounce on em with force leap with it being gone i wont be able to use it to push healers off of a node in alderan or push a bunch away in huttball...seems like this game is now even more imp based. sorcs and counslars have the force push thats not getting removed..snipers have it also ALONG with a root knights and juggernauts also have a force push to get you away I do not like the change at all I dont want a root that keeps melee near me so they can continue to bet the snot of of me the point of a knockback is just that...to knock them back from you to give you some breathing room

 

What are you talking about? We are keeping concussion charge (concussive round is the CC, not knock back), what BW is doing is changing all other classes with a 360 degree knock back into a 120 degree knock back. What that means is everyone will have to point their knock backs to use them, BW is not changing concussion charge (unless they decide it needs to be on a longer cool down which is bull).

 

As for the flash bang, it is easier to hit more targets than not than one might think (although hitting max 5 can be a task in itself). Frankly it is just like using mortar volley except you do not need to wait for the channel to end, just pick your target and use it. Most commandos who rely on mortar volley tend to develop a good sense of the 5m right off the bat (of course it can still be difficult to achieve, but I know that rather often my ground target does not always form right so I end up gestimating anyway).

Edited September 6, 2012 by Luceon

[SpaniardInfinity]

I would have much preferred a chain heal as opposed to a self heal but thats just an example of the PvP crowd being catered to and not the PvE.

 

The overwhelming majority of the confirmed changes for 1.4 are very much a PvP-centric change. For Commando, though, not much needs to be changed for the PvE content. Gunnery is already a very good PvE DPS because it doesn't suffer from the interruptions that challenge them in PVP. As for Combat Medic, they are also working just fine in PvE assuming your team isn't ignoring mechanics and takes into account that Combat Medic suffers at group heals but it still a single-target specialist (you should literally be able to heal forever if you're geared).

 

In other words, Commando specifically is fine in PvE. Thus, the PvP aspects are being improved.

Edited September 6, 2012 by SpaniardInfinity

[Destoroyah]

I think the best change they could make to commando/mercenary would be to make charged bolts/power shot instant maybe with a 4 sec cooldown and change muzzle fluting talent to remove the cooldown.

That would help all the commando specs.

Assualt spec(commando) will be brought more in line with the vangaurd version as they now got a instant attack they can use to proc their HIB/RS and got a reliable damage attack they can use on the move without fear of being interrupted.

Medics get a quicky decent DPS skill they can use that doesn't require alot of ammo and can use their supercharge ability for a short time burst damage spree without the cost of ammo so they can regen.

Gunnery get a ability they can use on the move that does decent damage and if they link the new heal to the barrier proc stack instead of your gravity vortex you don't have to lose your high DPS attack and if faced with a persistant melee that doesn't let you cast you got the option to kite and occasionally heal yourself for a small amount.

[ArchangelLBC]

Ok I am totally glass is 3/4 full.

Like it or not in PVP as a ranged DPS you have to kite at times and now we have one more tool to get range(stockstrike/stun) plus an interrupt, yes we lost range on cryo but most people used it as a ranged interrupt in PVP anyway and now we dont have to. Gunnery commandos now have 3 cc abilities and an interrupt. And medics have an instaheal and a slow with Kolto. And in exchange they decreased the range of our cryo. It seems like alot of you people want some ability that allows you to just stand somewhere and spam GR all day without taking interrupts or damage. I have never played a decent PVP game where in a competetive environment you could stand still the majority of the game and just pew pew.

bottom line I would have been happy with just an interrupt, the rest is icing on the cake

 

 

Sniper's can do that to a very large extent actually. Their gameplay forces them to be stationary and cast, and cover (which they have to be in anyway) allows them to get those casts off uninterrupted, and they're immune to grapples while they're at it.

 

From a PVE perspective I agree that I'm just happy with the interrupt and the rest is just icing, but from a PVP perspective I'm just incredibly underwhelmed. The lack of interrupt wasn't our biggest problem in PVP. It was our vulnerability to others interrupting that was the problem. We felt left out because we couldn't do that to other people, but realize that outside of Lightning Sorcs/TK Sages, we're the only ones who suffer from that vulnerability (and they're getting a buff to a cooldown that grants interrupt immunity in that tree).

 

This brings me to the nerf to Stockstrike knockback, and yes changing it to a root is an absolute nerf and more than any other change it shows that whoever is designing these changes just flat out doesn't understand the class. Yes we absolutely needed a root. We needed it attached to covering fire, or as a baseline ability. They chose to attach it to a 4m range ability making it's utility as a root completely useless (especially since it only lasts 4 seconds). This makes the root completely worthless (unless we can stock strike > Concussion Charge without breaking the root) and shows they didn't understand why we wanted it in the first place. In the meantime we've lost the ability to stop several uninterruptable skills on a 15s cooldown. I'd have much preferred it changed to a knockdown personally, or better yet left alone and Cover Fire's snare being changed to a root (though then I'd have to actually take that talent).

 

The changes (outside the interrupt) all seem PVP oriented and they all seem absolutely wrong for fixing what our actual problems were and that's my problem with these changes.

 

Interrupt is the best change, and that's just giving us something we should have had from the very beginning, and that fact tells us all you need to know about the rest of these changes.

[oaceen]

overall, i like the changes. looking forward to trying them out.

 

the change to cryo grenade will take some getting used to, but the 30m instant stuns are all getting reduced, so i don't consider a nerf to commandos, just a nerf overall.

i'm also happy that our concussion charge is unchanged (compared to force wave becoming a frontal cone)

 

 

 

i actually like the changes to combat medic. overall, i don't think it will drastically change how i'll play, but it's still a buff to a spec that still does pretty well already.

 

i've always wanted kolto residue to provide something more like a speed boost or something. as a snare, it's on par with what i was hoping for, and this change i really like. a snare for combat medics is really amazing, especially an AOE, as it adds some much-needed utility

 

frontline medic seems very interesting. any way for trauma probe to tick faster i welcome as it's a good heal per ammo cost, but takes such a long time to tick through that it doesn't really heal that much overall. i'll have to play around with it to see if it's really worth traiting.

what i really hope they do is truncate Field Triage to a 1 or 2-point skill to make room for frontline medic and put it on the same tier as i don't think Field Triage deserves 3 points.

 

 

as others have said, the change to charged barrel and kolto residue could open up a lot of gunnery/combat medic hybrid builds. could entice me to go back to PVP to try it out when they finally add new gear and such.

 

i actually like the change to stockstrike knockback (but i understand that i'm in the minority in this thread). i pretty much only ever used it as an interrupt but, since its knockback was so minimal, built up so much resolve, and wasn't off the GCD (making it an awful interrupt), i stopped traiting it a long time ago.

i would still prefer a knockdown/stun though.

 

 

 

an interrupt is very welcome. but, like the rezz we got in 1.2, is something we should have had since the beginning, so i consider this in the 'it's about time' category. as ArchangelLBC said, i still would prefer some interrupt immunity (other than Combat Shield)

 

 

 

and i'm eterinally baffled as to why there are still no changes to assault.

 

 

 

i imagine that more changes are coming as there are still quite a few classes not mentioned. maybe assault will see some attention in a new round of changes

[Luceon]

I am more curious to what other changes BW has in mind. As for those already announced, I have never once been in a situation and thought "I need an interrupt for this" (of course I rarely go to FP or ops with more than one or multiple troopers). Especially in PVP, since BW has bashed commando's (and mercs) so much that people rarely PVP with them anymore it isn't likely we hit too many players with long cast times (except some medics as others have said, but in a one out of five times a game an interrupt is necessary is not grounds to bother with it). Although I can see why it is added seeing as it should have been there to begin with. Even though BW used to defend themselves saying "commandos have so much utility that an interrupt is just unnecessary". As for the other changes, I do not play medic however even I am excited about that snare with kolto residue. However, as others have state the change for charged barrel seems underwhelming considering that it only applies to AMP instead of MP or both. As for the cryo grenade, well I am not sure if I can completely understand their reasoning for this (even after reading that full posting) but as oaceen said it is a change to everyone so I cannot harp on it as a major change for commandos. I still do not understand it though, I used it like candy rather often (especially in 1v1, can really turn the tide). Edited September 9, 2012 by Luceon

[Anysao]

Only strange part, these seem to more focused on the bodyguard/combat medic trees.

Guess we are putting the COMBAT in combat medic

[Boufsa]

Stockstrike now immobilizes the target for 4 seconds instead of knocking it back

What is the point of that? So that you have time to get 10m away, the minimal distance required for them to jump back at you? I don't get it and I don't like it. The knock back was much more interesting, since in many places with platforms it was a very good tool to send some bug flying downside and go do some other business.

Edited September 6, 2012 by Boufsa

[Oticus]

Sniper's can do that to a very large extent actually. Their gameplay forces them to be stationary and cast, and cover (which they have to be in anyway) allows them to get those casts off uninterrupted, and they're immune to grapples while they're at it.

 

From a PVE perspective I agree that I'm just happy with the interrupt and the rest is just icing, but from a PVP perspective I'm just incredibly underwhelmed. The lack of interrupt wasn't our biggest problem in PVP. It was our vulnerability to others interrupting that was the problem. We felt left out because we couldn't do that to other people, but realize that outside of Lightning Sorcs/TK Sages, we're the only ones who suffer from that vulnerability (and they're getting a buff to a cooldown that grants interrupt immunity in that tree).

 

This brings me to the nerf to Stockstrike knockback, and yes changing it to a root is an absolute nerf and more than any other change it shows that whoever is designing these changes just flat out doesn't understand the class. Yes we absolutely needed a root. We needed it attached to covering fire, or as a baseline ability. They chose to attach it to a 4m range ability making it's utility as a root completely useless (especially since it only lasts 4 seconds). This makes the root completely worthless (unless we can stock strike > Concussion Charge without breaking the root) and shows they didn't understand why we wanted it in the first place. In the meantime we've lost the ability to stop several uninterruptable skills on a 15s cooldown. I'd have much preferred it changed to a knockdown personally, or better yet left alone and Cover Fire's snare being changed to a root (though then I'd have to actually take that talent).

 

The changes (outside the interrupt) all seem PVP oriented and they all seem absolutely wrong for fixing what our actual problems were and that's my problem with these changes.

 

Interrupt is the best change, and that's just giving us something we should have had from the very beginning, and that fact tells us all you need to know about the rest of these changes.

 

Dont get me started on all the cool stuff snipers have! I look at the stock strike root in PVP as a great tool in alot of situations of team play. You can root their healers or root melee chasing the healers etc, the amount of knockback wasnt much good for anything other then knocking people off a ledge or giving an extra second to shoot a non channeled ability, covering fire snare is meh I agree, but when you spec out of it, you tend to miss it. Bottom line the change to stock strike is maybe a nerf in your opinion, but we didnt lose our aoe knockback , we got a interrupt, a root and if I understand correctly we get a free instaheal... so I am happy. One "nerf" and 2 new abilities and the nerfs to the other classes AOE knock backs make ours even better. So I feel like we win

[Jherad]

I look at the stock strike root in PVP as a great tool in alot of situations of team play. You can root their healers or root melee chasing the healers etc, the amount of knockback wasnt much good for anything other then knocking people off a ledge or giving an extra second to shoot a non channeled ability

 

See, now I'm having a hard time taking anything you say seriously. PvP much do you?

 

Edit: To explain my ... 'irritation' with posts like this. With these changes, In 'team play' you won't be 'helping out' any healers, you'll be the prime focus. Not because you're a threat, but because you're easy meat. Easier meat now, in fact. One less tool to deal with meleers ripping your face off. Two if you count that you'll only be able to stun them when they're right on top of you now, also.

Edited September 7, 2012 by Jherad

[Travellerz]

Losing the stockstrike knockback for Gunnery in pvp doesn't sound that great. Locking someone in place for 4 seconds? Sounds more like that should be a Vanguard ability and leave us with the knockback. It'll be interesting nonetheless to start feeling more melee oriented as a commando which is a ranged class.

 

The interupt will be a great addition. Does no good against snipers tho. That 30m cryo grenade helped a lot though.

 

I think what made pvp fun was that to some degree we couldn't predict what the other player was going to do. To a degree.

 

I think any melee class that is locked down right next to a gunnery commando is going to have a good chuckle as they keep wailing away on that class as it slowly moves away.

 

Any good PvP Gunnery Commando knows the value of that stockstrike knockback. Just saying.

[Jherad]

Yeah, I'd forgotten about snipers. With cryo grenade you actually stood a chance against a sniper. Now you can add them as yet another class that'll eat your lunch. I know a few on my server that'll be itching for this change. :/ Edited September 7, 2012 by Jherad

[oaceen]

See, now I'm having a hard time taking anything you say seriously.

 

i find this statement ironic considering all you've done is smear QQ all over this thread.

[Jherad]

i find this statement ironic considering all you've done is smear QQ all over this thread.

 

Well, that showed me. Your argument has totally persuaded me.

Edited September 7, 2012 by Jherad

[ArchangelLBC]

Dont get me started on all the cool stuff snipers have! I look at the stock strike root in PVP as a great tool in alot of situations of team play. You can root their healers or root melee chasing the healers etc, the amount of knockback wasnt much good for anything other then knocking people off a ledge or giving an extra second to shoot a non channeled ability, covering fire snare is meh I agree, but when you spec out of it, you tend to miss it. Bottom line the change to stock strike is maybe a nerf in your opinion, but we didnt lose our aoe knockback , we got a interrupt, a root and if I understand correctly we get a free instaheal... so I am happy. One "nerf" and 2 new abilities and the nerfs to the other classes AOE knock backs make ours even better. So I feel like we win

 

Gonna try to address this bit by bit.

 

I just am not sure I see the appeal of the stock strike root even from a utility perspective for the most part. Rooting healers doesn't do much good because most of them are self rooting to get those heals off and they have a 30m range. Maybe help a bit when you can trap them at mid during huttball while the carrier has run on ahead. Otherwise, it's kinda meh =/ Rooting melee chasing the healers is also of somewhat dubious importance, and of course the biggest problem is we have to be right up next to whoever we want to root, which in your melee example means we need to be right in the middle of the furball which is exactly where we're NOT supposed to be.

 

I honestly have never missed the snare on Full Auto. That's how inconsequential it was.

 

And honestly my biggest use for Stock Strike knockback was as an interrupt for the uninterruptable stuff (specifically Ravage/Master Strike), so I could save my Concussion Charge for countering leaps.

 

So far as I can tell the instant heal isn't "free", though it will cast instantly. Can do a Tech Override > MP > AMP for a nice shot in the arm, but they still haven't said whether this will consume the Charged Barrel stacks.

 

Outside the stockstrike nerf and the cryo nerf there's nothing BAD per se in the changes. It's just that they reflect what BW thinks we need, and that's the cause for so much discontent because it shows BW has no clue really about the class.

[Jherad]

Right, I would add to that the as well as interrupting ravages, the small knockback on stockstrike does mitigate some damage beyond that as well. Not a huge amount, but every little counts against a meleer. Its a DPS race. I find cover fire useful in huttball when I'm stuck in the middle with a carrier passing at range on the side. Slows them just enough for people to catch up (particularly if they have full resolve).

 

I'm kinda 'meh' about the AMP thing, it's what... a 1500 point heal? And as you say, it may consume charged barrels, we don't know yet. But hey, it certainly isn't a negative. I'm all for options.

 

I have been more than a little concerned that (as far as PvP goes) these small improvements (the interrupt and AMP, for gunnery) are what we're getting in return for these pretty hefty nerfs however. I've been tolerating PvP for a while, ugly bits and all, because I imagined some positive balance changes in the not-too-distant future. The reality has made me a little bitter.

[Luceon]

i find this statement ironic considering all you've done is smear QQ all over this thread.

 

Despite the fact that he is right? BTW, I have not seen him crying over this. Not once has he started (in a yelling manner or not) saying things like "whoa is me" or "commando/BW is doomed". Instead he has been providing constructive thoughts and experience to this thread (which is certain cases, like this latest, I agree with) much like the majority of the people posting in this thread has.

 

I still agree with the majority on the stock strike changes as well. I used that rather often, whether it was to interrupt a chained attack, to move a player off a ramp or pop them into a pool of acid (or better yet, getting them closer to or pushing them further into after using concussion charge). When I am at range behind my team and a melee jumps to me the last thing I want to do is stick them where they are. In a case like that, even if I could push them with concussion charge it still defeats any purpose, seeing as they still have to wait a few seconds for their leap to cool down then jump again.

Edited September 7, 2012 by Luceon

[Oticus]

See, now I'm having a hard time taking anything you say seriously. PvP much do you?

 

Edit: To explain my ... 'irritation' with posts like this. With these changes, In 'team play' you won't be 'helping out' any healers, you'll be the prime focus. Not because you're a threat, but because you're easy meat. Easier meat now, in fact. One less tool to deal with meleers ripping your face off. Two if you count that you'll only be able to stun them when they're right on top of you now, also.

 

Why yes I do PVP much... Valor rank 88 and typically in the top 2 DPS in most WZs which is why I dont understand your incessant whining... If people target the commando and not the healer because they are "easy meat" then they are morons because any decent commando should be able to position themselves to make this as difficult and time consuming as possible. So as far as my irritation with your posts like yours.... you are complaining about an ability change(stockstrike) that was ok at best but hardly a game changer, to one marginally worse. If this small change makes a huge difference in your PVP (all your theorycrafting aside) then I am sorry but you probably arent that good to begin with

[Jherad]

Why yes I do PVP much... Valor rank 88 and typically in the top 2 DPS in most WZs which is why I dont understand your incessant whining... If people target the commando and not the healer because they are "easy meat" then they are morons because any decent commando should be able to position themselves to make this as difficult and time consuming as possible. So as far as my irritation with your posts like yours.... you are complaining about an ability change(stockstrike) that was ok at best but hardly a game changer, to one marginally worse. If this small change makes a huge difference in your PVP (all your theorycrafting aside) then I am sorry but you probably arent that good to begin with

 

Everyone and his dog is rank 80+ now. You've been at it a couple of months? How frequently have you run ranked with this beast of yours? You can see a few of my PvP videos in my sig, lets see some of yours.

 

Never mind, I'll see you on the test server no doubt. I'm sure you're not all mouth. No sir. What's your character name?

 

My point has always been about competitive matches vs good players. Any reasonable player can roll muppets with any class. I'd go one step further and say any reasonable player could get in the top 3 DPS in a standard pug using just your first zero resource ability over and over.

 

I don't care about that, I'm after improvements that will help against the best of the best.

Edited September 7, 2012 by Jherad