Juggernaut adds tanking on Kephess HM

[Robbipl]

Hey

 

My guild is trying to kill Kephess on hard mode and we have some problems when it comes to adds phase (warrior with shield + trenchcutters).

 

Thing is we have 2 jugger tanks - one of them going for warriors, and second one ( me) is supposed to tank other mobs so that dpsers can aoe them down.

 

Problem is that I simply cannot hold aggro on those packs, and even if we manage to kill all adds, it is usually one or two guys dead meaning a wipe.

 

I want to say I do not think I am unskilled noob, I simply find myself UNABLE to do anything more than what I am doing to make threat generating better - I fee llike I do not have enough abilities to do that.

 

I am using smash every time I can. but it has 12 sec cooldown. In the meantime, I am building my rage and spamming sweeping slash, I am using aoe taunt (45 sec cd) when things go really bad. I use guard on best dpser, even use vigilance during the fight when i see someone is overagroing,dpsers are using threat lowering abilities, but most of the time it is still not enough.

 

Any of you Juggs tanks out there have been tanking adds on this particular fight and can give me a tip, or try to help with solution to this problem?

 

Also one question which might be important: Does second Baradium Bomber spawns after you kill all adds, or it has a timer so that if you are too slow on adds, bomber will spawn while killing adds? Do we have to kill adds as fast as possible, so when shield disappears, dpsers start nuking hard without giving me any time to build agroo on mobs. Would it slow us own too much if I asked them to wait like 2 seconds before each pack?

 

Manror.

Edited August 31, 2012 by Robbipl

[JamieM]

Hey

 

My guild is trying to kill Kephess on hard mode and we have some problems when it comes to adds phase (warrior with shield + trenchcutters).

 

Thing is we have 2 jugger tanks - one of them going for warriors, and second one ( me) is supposed to tank other mobs so that dpsers can aoe them down.

 

Problem is that I simply cannot hold aggro on those packs, and even if we manage to kill all adds, it is usually one or two guys dead meaning a wipe.

 

I want to say I do not think I am unskilled noob, I simply find myself UNABLE to do anything more than what I am doing to make threat generating better - I fee llike I do not have enough abilities to do that.

 

I am using smash every time I can. but it has 12 sec cooldown. In the meantime, I am building my rage and spamming sweeping slash, I am using aoe taunt (45 sec cd) when things go really bad. I use guard on best dpser, even use vigilance during the fight when i see someone is overagroing,dpsers are using threat lowering abilities, but most of the time it is still not enough.

 

Any of you Juggs tanks out there have been tanking adds on this particular fight and can give me a tip, or try to help with solution to this problem?

 

Also one question which might be important: Does second Baradium Bomber spawns after you kill all adds, or it has a timer so that if you are too slow on adds, bomber will spawn while killing adds? Because our raid leader is convinced that we have to kill adds as fast as possible, so when shield disappears, dpsers start nuking hard without giving me any time to build agroo on mobs. Would it slow us own too much if I asked them to wait like 2 seconds before each pack?

 

Manror.

 

Hi there - I am actually not a tank but a DPS Jugg but I know the fight very well. What abilities are you using to hold aggro on the trandoshan adds? Use your sweeping slash repeatedly, followed by smash when on CD - also make sure you use Enrage if you are low. If you are running a straight Immortal build it may be better for you to consider going hybrid as currently I believe that hybrid vengeance builds are the best way for Juggs to keep and build aggro.

 

Also your other tank doesn't need to take the warrior out - if you have a marauder or other decently geared dps with defensive CDs then simply get them to taunt/attack the warrior off right away when they spawn and kill it away from the rest fast (they are really squishy) then the other raid members can just aoe the crap out of the rest as soon as the warrior is down. You can then share the aggro between the two tanks.

 

Also your RL is correct, the Baradium Bombers are all on timers so if you don't get the ads down fast enough you will have a bomber spawn when some are still up = a probable wipe.

Edited August 31, 2012 by JamieM

[Senali]

Thank you for reply.

 

I am using all of these abilities you mentioned - I am even hybrid specced.

 

Question is - can dpsers give me few seconds before each pack, or would it result in baradium bomber spawning together with other adds who left?

 

And yea, idea with second tank helping is nice, will need to test that. Now we were having tank + sin dps going for them, but I think sin would manage it alone, ty for tip;)

Edited August 31, 2012 by Senali

[JamieM]

Thank you for reply.

 

I am using all of these abilities you mentioned - I am even hybrid specced.

 

Question is - can dpsers give me few seconds before each pack, or would it result in baradium bomber spawning together with other adds who left?

 

And yea, idea with second tank helping is nice, will need to test that. Now we were having tank + sin dps going for them, but I think sin would manage it alone, ty for tip;)

 

Hmm it all depends on your DPS - most of the time you don't really have too much time before each pack - they just flow one after the other with perhaps 1/2 secs gap between the two if your collective DPS is high. Sometimes you don't get that little break. Personally I wouldn't really rely on it after each pack and simply do your best at keeping them off the DPS/healers.

[wadecounty]

If the adds are really causing wipes, it sounds like this is more of a healer/dps issue than a tank issue imo. They don't hit THAT hard. What is happening is an overeager DPS is throwing down a big AOE heavy hitter and not even bothering to use his aggro drop or defensive cd's, and the healer is too slow to notice the DPS being targeted.

 

The leader doesn't have to be taunted because he dies in about 5 seconds anyways, so the 2 of you should each have 1 AOE taunt and 1 single target taunt available for 1 pack of mobs, and for the third one you have at least 1 single target taunt available. If you notice one person being burned down Intercede is also an option (again though, this is where you say why the hell can't DPS learn to use their aggro drops).

 

Btw, the full Immortal is actually better at tanking lots of adds than the hybrid build, more damage on Sweeping Slash/Smash, lower cd on Smash, more Rage to spam Sweeping Slash, and 2 hard stuns you can toss out (I forget whether those adds can be stunned on hard mode).

 

Still though, that is not supposed to be a hard part of that fight, so this sounds like as much a healer/dps issue as a tank issue. Remember, its a tanks job to hold aggro, but that doesn't mean dps don't have to manage their own aggro and healers don't have to heal the dps just in case.

Edited August 31, 2012 by wadecounty

[CitizenFry]

I have never seen the Baradium Bomber spawn before all of the Warriors and Trenchgutters are down. In fact, we usually stop DPS on the last Warrior until we're done with all the Trenchgutters and everyone is in position and ready to take on the bomber.

[JamieM]

I have never seen the Baradium Bomber spawn before all of the Warriors and Trenchgutters are down. In fact, we usually stop DPS on the last Warrior until we're done with all the Trenchgutters and everyone is in position and ready to take on the bomber.

 

Eh? That's impossible. The Warrior in each phase of adds has to go down before the Trenchcutters otherwise its shield will reflect all damage done to the Trenchcutters back onto the raid, causing a wipe.

[Savro]

Eh? That's impossible. The Warrior in each phase of adds has to go down before the Trenchcutters otherwise its shield will reflect all damage done to the Trenchcutters back onto the raid, causing a wipe.

 

This is right and wrong... you can taunt the warrior far from the trenchcutters, so the shield doesn't protect them anymore...

Edited September 1, 2012 by Savro

[CBRGhostRider]

This is right and wrong... you can taunt the warrior far from the trenchcutters, so the shield doesn't protect them anymore...

 

This is exactly what we do. I single target taunt the warrior, so him and his shield are separated from the mob. I take him to one corner and the raid AoEs the other corner with the other tank holding aggro.

 

What's more, I don't kill the last warrior. I just kinda hang with him in the corner until the raid gets back their energy, lowers heat, regens force, tops off everyones health etc. Also we wait for the aoe from the walker to be in the correct position (as per our strategy). Then we finally take down the lone warrior and attack the bomber who will spawn.

Edited September 1, 2012 by CBRGhostRider

[Rhagash]

Here is what we do:

 

First tank AOE taunts, single target taunts the warrior and the warrior is focus fire'd down. I wait through first group so I don't pick up any adds by mistake.

 

2nd group spawns, I target Warrior and jump to him. As I arrive I aoe taunt and then single target taunt the warrior. We have our 2 marauders jump immediately after I do and the 3 of us typically have the warrior down by the time the ranged can turn attention to the 2nd group.

 

As the warrior is about to fall or if I see the mobs moving towards a healer, I hit my cower and slow. Once the warrior is down, I smash and begin my normal AOE rotation. If a few aggro on someone they are dead so fast its not an issue.

 

The first tank is waiting and proceeds to the 3rd group with the marauders and repeats the procedure. I will typically AOE taunt if it's up near the end of the 3rd group so that the Assassin tank can pull the bomber to us when it spawns.

[vandana_]

Here is our detailed tactics for this phase which works every time.

 

First off, make sure you are using correct talent spec. Here is mine:

http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#101hMGdudMdfzZcRMZ0M.2

Crucial talents: Decimate, SSM, Heavy Handed, Crushing Fist, Dreadnaught.

 

Secondly - the tactics. Using 2 tanks.

 

Group 1: During the final seconds before the group spawns, after you apply 5 stacks of sunder armor, around 5 seconds after the big walker becomes vulnerable TANK 1 goes to where group 1 spawns to get proximity aggro, at the same time TANK 2 already goes to entrance where group 2 spawns. Tank 1 targets the warrior, dps take tank's 1 target and burn the warrior quickly. While that is happening the remaining mobs will attack the dpsers - when that happens and you see them moving from you - AOE taunt. 1-2 seconds later Warrior dies. DPS start to AOE. You SMASH -> SWEEPING SLASH -> ENRAGE -> spam SWEEPING SLASH.

 

Group 2: TANK 2 does the exact same with group 2. TANK 1 doesn't bother with that group - he goes by that group along the wall and around the walker's big aoe to pick up group 3 at its spawning point accompanied by 1 healer. 2nd healer stays with group 2.

 

Group 3: TANK 1 picks up the 3rd warrior, DPS move to kill it once group 2 is dead, remaining mobs break away but your AOE taunt is getting off cooldown just in time. smash -> ss -> enrage -> spam ss.

 

You will not have aggro issues using that tactics. There may be a stray single mob loose from group 1 but that is something your dps will deal with quickly. Also on 3rd group your aoe taunt will get off cooldown just when the mobs are about to hit the dps/healers group so be careful.

Edited September 4, 2012 by vandana_

[Robbipl]

Ty for all replies guys.

 

We already managed to do this phase properly with noone dying so problem is irrelevant now;)

 

I haven't changed anything, guess dpsers are more careful now;)

 

Thing which is killing us right now are Pulsar Droids.

 

We have read that rail shot should be hitting one who is farthest away (but within 30 meters range) from active pulsar droid. So we place our tanks so that they are meant to get shots. While most of the time it happens, some of rail shots seems random for us, one shooting people with the help of the walker. It just doesnt seem to matter where one stands, it can hit him if he is the closest one, in the mid or whatever.

 

I have also read that going as a group on switches can prevent rail shots from happening at all, but we havent tried it yet. And if it can be done, is it intended to be like this, or is it like bugging the game?

 

Thanks for replies.

 

Manror

Edited September 3, 2012 by Robbipl

[wadecounty]

There's 2 mechanics for the railshots. 1, they are supposed to hit whoever is furthest from the droid. 2, the farther you are from the droid, the more damage the railshot does.

 

So ideally, you have your entire raid except for the tanks stack directly on top of the droids, with the tanks 3-5 meters out just to help ensure they get the railshots. This way, even if someone other than a tank is hit, it causes minimal damage.

[Robbipl]

If what you are saying is true, I really don't know why people who are HUGGING pulsar droid are taking shots for 13-17 k damage.

[vandana_]

If what you are saying is true, I really don't know why people who are HUGGING pulsar droid are taking shots for 13-17 k damage.

 

This phase seems very buggy and it happens the droid will hit a random target altough the general mechanic seems to be that they are hitting the furthest away target from them within 30m range (which should be a tank).

 

Account for the bug and make sure everyone is topped up at all times before and during this phase (which is entirely possible to do) and nicely stacked for aoe heals (we use sorcerer healers) so even when the droids are hitting someone in their melee range that person is immediately topped by aoe + single target heals.

 

It is a different story when the droids hit someone else then a tank during the running bit (which happens). Again you need to make sure everyone has enough hp or if they don't use vanish rez (or battle rez). It happens. It is most likely a bug. You need to learn to deal with it though until it (hopefully) gets fixed .

Edited September 4, 2012 by vandana_

[Ismercu]

You have to spam your taunts even they are targetting you, the taunts increase your max hate of the current mob so even if they are attacking you, use them and dont just spam sweeping slash, use all your abilities on each target.

[vandana_]

You have to spam your taunts even they are targetting you, the taunts increase your max hate of the current mob so even if they are attacking you, use them and dont just spam sweeping slash, use all your abilities on each target.

 

If you separate mobs from the warrior that is correct - aoe dps (smash first), then ss and then mass taunt. But in the tactic I explained (and from my guild's experience there is no need to separate the mobs since you loose more time and risk messing it up more than if you just focus and burn the warrior quickly) you can't touch the mobs before the warrior goes down. So you can't use otherwise correct rotation of first dpsing and then mass taunting. You need to do it the other way around.

 

And since smash also has a cooldown you are left with spamming sweeping slash (which is completely viable for keeping aggro in that phase after 1.3 changes).

Edited September 4, 2012 by vandana_

[stephenjohnp]

It's sad that you even have a problem with this. It goes to show how poor the AoE threat is with Juggernauts. On my Vanguard I can easily hold every one of them until they all die with ease.

 

What we usually do is on the first pack, focus the Warrior, and then kill the little guys. On the 2nd pack, send a DPS to leap at the Warrior and allows the rest of the pack to come to us without the warrior and AoE them down. Same goes for the 3rd pack.

Edited September 13, 2012 by stephenjohnp